There have been several good threads lately on levelwind designs that have discussed the relative advantages in terms of castability and wear. It is pretty clear that a disengaging levelwind has less resistance when casting (less moving parts), but a synchronized (non-disengaging) levelwind will be subject to less wear (less load on the levelwind components), I was curious as to how much load would actually be generated on the disengaging levelwind components that tends to wear out first (worm/line guide).
I did a bit of digging and figured out that the amount of force on the line guide is a function of the load of the line on the spool and the amount (angle) the line has to change direction when going through the line guide. And equally interesting (to me at least :) ) is that the direction of force on the line guide will be at the center of the angle. This means that the amount and direction of force on the line guide and worm will constantly change if you are winding under load, or if the line is being pulled out under drag. [corrected 05/04/20- thanks to Robert Janssen]
With a synchronized levelwind, this angle should never be over a couple of degrees, just enough to take out any backlash in the system plus the size of the opening in the line guide.
But with a disengaging levelwind the angle and therefore the amount and direction of the load will constantly change and can reach some pretty substantial values if you are fishing under load. The wear would be similar to sticking a crochet hook into the line guide and simultaneously pulling and twisting back and forth. Yikes!
So how bad can it get? Well that depends on the amount of pulling force on the line, the width of the spool, and the distance from the line guide to to top of the spool. The wider the spool and the closer the line guide, the greater the line angle.
Which caused a lightbulb to go off. One of the main advantages of the so called "low profile" design is that it pushes the levelwind farther away from the spool than the so-called "round" reel. Not as big a deal with a synchronized levelwind, but very important for the disengaging design.
I don't have a disengaging saltwater levelwind, so I drew up an example using the dimensions of my trusty Okuma Komodo 400 series. Pretending that my Komodo was a disengaging levelwind, the worst case scenario with the greatest angle of deflection would be about 36 degrees. It would look something like this (note the direction of force):
(https://alantani.com/gallery/32/11927_03_05_20_3_06_29.jpeg)
So how much maximum force? I found several sources for the calculation online, but this one has the best description and a handy table about half way down:
https://www.ropebook.com/information/angular-vector-forces/ (https://www.ropebook.com/information/angular-vector-forces/)
At 36 degrees, we are talking a bit more than 60% of whatever the force is on the line. If we believe the manufacturers, and set the drag to 20 (or more) lbs, that would mean 12 lbs of angular force on the line guide. Even at a more realistic 10 lb drag setting, we are still talking 6 lbs of force.
I would expect that a typical synchronized levelwind would have a maximum angle of just a couple degrees, keeping the force at five percent or less.
To be fair, I would suspect that reels like the Tranx (which has a disengaging levelwind) probably make the spool a bit more narrow, and push the levelwind forward (maybe why the Tranx 400 has a third levelwind gear?). But I would be surprised if the numbers would end up that much lower.
It seems to me that for lighter usage like typical freshwater bass fishing, a disengaging levelwind makes plenty of sense. But if you are buttoning down the drag for heavy saltwater use, you are giving up a lot of longevity for a few more yards of casting distance.
It would be an interesting project to build a model with a line on a board, a couple eyelets and a couple line scales to verify the equations.
-J
And as baitcasters go, I don't have anything anywhere close to a Tranx. I've got around a dozen disengaging levelwind reels I now use for freshwater --but they're all early vintage Bantams of various models from the 1980s. I bought my first one in a shop in Largo FL; the Bantams were gaining popularity for snook fishing at the time, so that's what I originally started using it for. Super braids didn't exist then and as snook fishing went, that reel was obviously useless around structure where a fish might need to be muscled away from dock or bridge pilings, but a load of fun and very functional on the flats where the fish could do it's thing and be controlled.
I think the ceramic eyelet insert in the line guide greatly reduced tension on the line during the cast since the line guide would be sitting stationary. Upon cranking, the line guide is, of course, once again engaged. When a fish hooks up and pulls line out, the line guide is moving as line goes out, but it's out of sync with the position of the line coming off of the spool compared to, say, a Penn #9 or Ambassadeur 5000. That's probably where the slick ceramic insert is helpful, in addition to the reduced angle of the line coming off the lighter, smaller aluminum spools.
I've never seen a disengaging levelwind guide badly grooved. The bottom line is which one casts better if you have to cast. For dropping a synchronized levelwind is probably better.
Lew Childers tried to stretch the distance from spool to eye as much as he could.
(http://www.raingarden.us/snap/BB1(c).jpg)
Then there's this:
(http://www.raingarden.us/snap/Bantam100(q).jpg)
(http://www.raingarden.us/snap/Bantam100(r).jpg)
(http://www.raingarden.us/snap/Bantam100(s).jpg)
(http://www.raingarden.us/snap/Bantam100(t).jpg)
(http://www.raingarden.us/snap/Bantam100(u).jpg)
(http://www.raingarden.us/snap/Bantam100(v).jpg)
-steve
Quote from: wfjord on May 04, 2020, 02:49:41 AM
And as baitcasters go, I don't have anything anywhere close to a Tranx. I've got around a dozen disengaging levelwind reels I now use for freshwater --but they're all early vintage Bantams of various models from the 1980s. I bought my first one in a shop in Largo FL; the Bantams were gaining popularity for snook fishing at the time, so that's what I originally started using it for. Super braids didn't exist then and as snook fishing went, it was obviously useless around structure where a fish might need to be muscled away from dock or bridge pilings, but a load of fun and very functional on the flats where the fish could do it's thing and be controlled.
I think the ceramic eyelet insert in the line guide greatly reduced tension on the line during the cast since the line guide would be sitting stationary. Upon cranking, the line guide is, of course, once again engaged. When a fish hooks up and pulls line out, the line guide is moving as line goes out, but it's out of sync with the position of the line coming off of the spool compared to, say, a Penn #9 or Ambassadeur 5000. That's probably where the slick ceramic insert is helpful, in addition to the reduced angle of the line coming off the lighter, smaller aluminum spools.
That "out of sync" issue was the point I was attempting to make. And the load from being out of sync is a lot more than I would have guessed. Definitely enough to wear down a worm. 6 lbs of force may not sound like much until you tie a gallon jug filled 3/4 with water to your line guide and start lifting!
But friction is not the same as the force from the angular load. Friction is a function of force and and the coefficient of friction of the two materials rubbing. Being out of sync will increase the force, which will increase the friction. Improving the coefficient of friction with a ceramic insert will decrease the friction, but not affect the force. While friction does come into the picture a bit from a wear perspective, I would guess that it is the amount of force twisting the line guide from the worm is doing most of the damage.
I would bet that if we took a saltwater disengaging levelwind, got it out of sync, and cranked in a couple dozen spools full of line slightly under the listed max drag, we would put some noticeable wear on the worm and guide. I don't think they can handle anything near the max listed drag for extended use, but would be happy to be proven wrong.
Quote from: oc1 on May 04, 2020, 05:28:53 AM
Lew Childers tried to stretch the distance from spool to eye as much as he could.
-steve
Lew was on the money. Those last couple photos are pretty cool!
The problem with extending the guide instead of extending the distance to the worm, is that the guide becomes a naked lever, and you lose more from the lack of rigidity than you gain from from decreasing the angle. Might help with casting distance by decreasing the friction (probably what Lew was going for), but my guess is not as strong under heavy load as a stock setup. But that reel was probably not designed for much load anyways.
No free lunch in engineering. All give and take :)
Thanks for posting those photos.
-J
I don't have an engineering background and can't speak on that level, so I'll take your word on the technical issues involved. I have used some of those reels extensively for decades and never wore out a worm or line guide. I never buttoned the drag down tight on them, either, and certainly couldn't use them as winches. I had other reels for that. But these are just small, lightweight little reels, and out on the grass flats the snook, reds, and other fish I caught with them generally weren't the size of the ones hanging out in the deeper passes around bridge pillings and boat channels. It was always pump & crank anyway with a challenging fish. All said and done, they've held up remarkably well. Caught plenty of stripers on them, too, and countless bass. I don't know about a Tranx, but it would sure be fun to give one a try; the gear looks to be way more substantial than on the old predecessors.
Quote from: wfjord on May 04, 2020, 12:13:28 PM
I have used some of those reels extensively for decades and never wore out a worm or line guide. I never buttoned the drag down tight on them, either, and certainly couldn't use them as winches.
I'd have to agree with this statement.
Quote from: jurelometer on May 04, 2020, 05:57:59 AM
I would bet that if we took a saltwater disengaging levelwind, got it out of sync, and cranked in a couple dozen spools full of line slightly under the listed max drag, we would put some noticeable wear on the worm and guide. I don't think they can handle anything near the max listed drag for extended use, but would be happy to be proven wrong.
I'd have to agree with this one too.
The waters too deep for me here, but wfjord, I can totally relate to your use of Bantams. I currently have somewhere in the neighborhood of 10. 3 different models. All mags. Several NIB. Not the best reel ever but the one that feels the best in my hand out of all the reels I own.
I have caught enough strong fish on the Tranx to know after 6 years of use that the levelwind mechanism is strong enough to handle any reasonable pull on it. The only discerning permanent damage I have is that after catching a Yellowfin tuna of 150lb the extra idler gear "axle" is quite badly scarred and worn. Otherwise I keep replacing the worm shaft and line guide pawl.
What bothers me is that from day one these reels have a fair amount of slop or play in the levelwind mechanism. The reel in the picture is 5 Y old but has mainly served as a spare and not worked excessively.
The line guide moves 1.2 mm laterally. The height of the line guide from the centre line of the worms haft, to the lowest part of the "line opening" is 11.7 mm which could put a lot of leverage on such a small part.
I am unable to tell if there is any wear on the plastic or metal parts and they are too pricey to simply replace continuously.
These are parts other then the worm shaft or line guide pawl.
I have attempted to reduce this slop by making 0.1mm shims and fitting them everywhere eliminating play as far as possible. I do this in an attempt to space the line lay equally on either side of the spool with limited success.
The whole levelwind would have been far sturdier if it had also had an upper track, similar to an Abu Garcia 6600C4. Perhaps this design needs the slop to operate properly, because as I said in my opening remark, it does seem strong enough which is the critical requirement.
QuoteI would bet that if we took a saltwater disengaging levelwind, got it out of sync, and cranked in a couple dozen spools full...
Yeahbut, the spool and line guide only remain out of sync for like, one revolution. They sync up again as soon as you start cranking in line. Only upon releasing line in freespool do they cyclically occur to be out of sync. At least on any reel I have seen; perhaps others are different.
So, not a reaĺ-world issue, but an intriguing thought experiment and discussion. Thats always fun.
Quote from: Rancanfish on May 04, 2020, 02:22:25 PM
The waters too deep for me here, but wfjord, I can totally relate to your use of Bantams. I currently have somewhere in the neighborhood of 10. 3 different models. All mags. Several NIB. Not the best reel ever but the one that feels the best in my hand out of all the reels I own.
I agree, they do feel good in the hand. I have all mags except for two. My favorite is the Bantam Mag Plus 250SG XHS, of which I have four. Regularly serviced, CF drags, and properly lubed they are a pleasure to use and can get good casting distance when set up properly. All the internal workings are metal on the models I have.
Quote from: Robert Janssen on May 04, 2020, 06:02:35 PM
QuoteI would bet that if we took a saltwater disengaging levelwind, got it out of sync, and cranked in a couple dozen spools full...
Yeahbut, the spool and line guide only remain out of sync for like, one revolution. They sync up again as soon as you start cranking in line. Only upon releasing line in freespool do they cyclically occur to be out of sync. At least on any reel I have seen; perhaps others are different.
So, not a reaĺ-world issue, but an intriguing thought experiment and discussion. Thats always fun.
Oops! You are right! It will catch up on the wind in no more than a few revolutions. Don't know how I missed that one. I believe that the problem still holds for taking out line under drag if the levelwind gear runs off the handle shaft (such as the Tranx). If it runs off the main gear, I would think that after the first run (presumably the longest), the line lay would be synchronized. So the problem is real, but overstated in my original post. I will wait a bit an see if I got anything else wrong and add a correction to the original post.
Thanks!
-J
I was stuck on the Penn Peerless for a long time. The primary maintenance headache was always the levelwind. It doesn't take long to blow out a Peerless levelwind. So much so, that they included a spare pawl onboard the reel. Then I was stuck on ABU round reels for a long time. Primarily 5000s. The maintenance headache was the levelwind on these too.
The disengaging levelwind did not happen in a vacuum. It came about as part of a low-profile revolution that included smaller, lighter and more narrow spools, wider and more robust levelwind carriage and smaller diameter lines.
I begrudgingly went to the low profile and was stuck on Curados and Lews Speed Spool for a long time. The maintenance headache shifted from the levelwind to the ball bearings. If there is an inherent weakness in the disengaging levelwind then the designers did a good job of compensating for it.
These days I have reverted to much older and simpler technology that does not include levelwind, ball bearings, drag and antireverse. Reel abuse has increased but reel maintenance has decreased. Some of you seem to enjoy reel maintenance. I don't.
-steve
Quote from: oc1 on May 04, 2020, 07:55:00 PM
If there is an inherent weakness in the disengaging levelwind then the designers did a good job of compensating for it.
I think that this weakness only appears when pulling against high drag settings which are only possible with the new "heavy duty" saltwater levelwinds.
Quote
These days I have reverted to much older and simpler technology that does not include levelwind, ball bearings, drag and antireverse. Reel abuse has increased but reel maintenance has decreased. Some of you seem to enjoy reel maintenance. I don't.
-steve
Likewise - I put reel maintenance right up there with cleaning up the garage.
Lots of experience on this site, and always enjoy the discussions, theoretical or otherwise. While I have never owned or played with one, how would a Penn Leveline bear on this discussion? In looking at them, (again, I've never held one/had one apart) the leveling bar appears to be pretty robust, and with the line sliding across the bar I would guess that side loads would be minimal in any sort of an "angular" situation? - john
Quote from: Brewcrafter on May 06, 2020, 01:00:17 AM
Lots of experience on this site, and always enjoy the discussions, theoretical or otherwise. While I have never owned or played with one, how would a Penn Leveline bear on this discussion? In looking at them, (again, I've never held one/had one apart) the leveling bar appears to be pretty robust, and with the line sliding across the bar I would guess that side loads would be minimal in any sort of an "angular" situation? - john
I have a Leveline 350, but I have never messed with it(aside from spooling some line on it...which went on very well), so I can't really say how it performs. I'd have to think it must work well just by looking at it. I've heard guys say the levelwind bar is so high it interferes with casting...I can't imagine that really being much of a problem. 8)
Quote from: Cor on May 04, 2020, 02:55:56 PM
I have caught enough strong fish on the Tranx to know after 6 years of use that the levelwind mechanism is strong enough to handle any reasonable pull on it. The only discerning permanent damage I have is that after catching a Yellowfin tuna of 150lb the extra idler gear "axle" is quite badly scarred and worn. Otherwise I keep replacing the worm shaft and line guide pawl.
My assertion is that if the Tranx did not have a disengaging levelwind these parts would last longer. But you fish long and hard enough that you would probably beat up any design :)
Quote
What bothers me is that from day one these reels have a fair amount of slop or play in the levelwind mechanism. The reel in the picture is 5 Y old but has mainly served as a spare and not worked excessively.
The line guide moves 1.2 mm laterally. The height of the line guide from the centre line of the worms haft, to the lowest part of the "line opening" is 11.7 mm which could put a lot of leverage on such a small part.
I am unable to tell if there is any wear on the plastic or metal parts and they are too pricey to simply replace continuously.
These are parts other then the worm shaft or line guide pawl.
I have attempted to reduce this slop by making 0.1mm shims and fitting them everywhere eliminating play as far as possible. I do this in an attempt to space the line lay equally on either side of the spool with limited success.
The whole levelwind would have been far sturdier if it had also had an upper track, similar to an Abu Garcia 6600C4. Perhaps this design needs the slop to operate properly, because as I said in my opening remark, it does seem strong enough which is the critical requirement.
I would bet that you are right that Shimano figured that more freeplay in the system would make it last longer. Any time moving inter-meshed parts (gears, worms/pawls) have little backlash, they must be kept well aligned or they will bind, which really accelerates wear. There is also a shocking amount of freeplay between the worm and pawl in my (moderately used) synchronized Komodo. I did not see any wear, but would not mind to compare against a new reel someday.
If an upper track was tight enough to prevent the line guide from twisting it would also scar the the guide and possibly be a source of binding on it's own. Probably tricky to get right. The economics probably dictate that the most profit is in a quick and dirty design that does not bind, as most folks that fish these type of reels don't use them that much, and will buy the next hot reel in a few years anyways.
Quote from: Brewcrafter on May 06, 2020, 01:00:17 AM
Lots of experience on this site, and always enjoy the discussions, theoretical or otherwise. While I have never owned or played with one, how would a Penn Leveline bear on this discussion? In looking at them, (again, I've never held one/had one apart) the leveling bar appears to be pretty robust, and with the line sliding across the bar I would guess that side loads would be minimal in any sort of an "angular" situation? - john
Correct. I think that the 350 (leveline) has a twisty "line guide bar thingy" that rocks back and forth? Or something like that. There is no line guide/pawl to be twisted, so the problems discussed here are probably not very relevant.
The 350 is an interesting design. But it relies on friction to move the line back and forth, so if you are winding against slack the bar does not help much, probably worse with limp small diameter braid. So not a great design if you are working lures with a ripping motion that causes the line to be wound without tension (one of the ways I fish my levelwind).
But fishing bait, or trolling, especially with mono - might be a nice design. The 350 was on my list back when I was trying to get get my hands on different reel designs.
I don't think the issue/tradeoff that I brought up is entirely theoretical. Even after the correction (thanks to Robert), I still believe that the durability to casting distance tradeoff is pretty significant if you push these saltwater levelwinds hard enough. Just not as significant as I first thought.
Although who knows? I could end up eating crow twice in the same thread. :)
-J
The Leveline was sort of a dud in its day. At least it was where I lived. It looks like a surf casting reel but is no good for casting because of friction going over the high bar. On the retrieve there is a lot of fussing with the line to make it lay correctly. So, you were better off getting a real surf casting reel and laying line by hand. If you absolutely couldn't handle laying line by hand then you got a Peerless.
They are as tough as any of the Penn surf reels. Greg trolls in a kayak with a Leveline which is the most appropriate use for one I have ever heard of.
I think they should have made a narrow one.
-steve
This conversation has been very stimulating. One of the things it has caused me to think about is the following. Though most of my fishing is with older baitcasting reels with synchronized levelwinds, I have had some experience with the most modern, low profile baitcasters with non-synchronized levelwinds. After casting for an extended period of time (an hour lets say) I find line piling up one end of the spool. This problem is present in all the non-synchronized reels I have used. I have burnt up a good many brain cells trying to figure out the reason for this. Levelwind not centered before the cast? Casts all bout the same length? I would like to hear your thoughts on this. On vintage baitcasters I always try to make sure the braided line/mono leader knot is not under my thumb as the cast starts. but really never have the kind of problem outlined above.
Quote from: jurelometer on May 06, 2020, 02:09:03 AM
Quote from: Cor on May 04, 2020, 02:55:56 PM
I have caught enough strong fish on the Tranx to know after 6 years of use that the levelwind mechanism is strong enough to handle any reasonable pull on it. The only discerning permanent damage I have is that after catching a Yellowfin tuna of 150lb the extra idler gear "axle" is quite badly scarred and worn. Otherwise I keep replacing the worm shaft and line guide pawl.
My assertion is that if the Tranx did not have a disengaging levelwind these parts would last longer. But you fish long and hard enough that you would probably beat up any design :)
Mimmmm......
when I bought the Tranx I actually did not know about engaging and disengaging levelwinders, in fact I had never used a reel like that.
Although I am not an engineer, I could figure that a levelwinding mechanism would probably take much strain and stresses and purely by its design would not be everlasting. I did have the benefit of watching one guy who had one and used it for a whole season 6 month without any serious mishaps.
I very respectfully feel that that I am not convinced that your conclusion is correct. :-[ Since I have been using these reels the fishing has been fairly poor and I am also no longer putting in as much time as before and guesstimate I work the reel as follows in a normal Summer month:-
Number of casts and retrieves:- 8 000
Fish caught :- 20
A normal retrieve takes 1 minute, therefore the reel is in retrieve mode for 133 hours per month.
The main problem arises when the line guide and the line on the spool are out of sync putting sideways stress on all the working parts. Right?
Now that happens in two situations, 1) mainly, when a strong fish pulls line from the reel against the drag & 2) during the first few handle turns after a cast.
The Yellowtail I catch here are relatively small, 12 lb is a good average and as I use strong line I do not let the fish take line for much more then 15 seconds if any. If I were to regularly hook Tuna these reels will break, those fish take of at neck breaking speed over and over again and can quickly strip 50 yd from the reel at a time. The Yellowtail do not do that.
The first two handle turns are of no consequence I would say!
The casts only puts very light stress on the levelwind mechanism and is also of little consequence.
However I am inclined to think that perhaps the constant drag created by fast retrieving a 3 oz lure with 5/0 trebles dragging at the back in strong water and wind is more likely the culprit.
The reel is subject to this type of stress a lot more then the other.
As the line guide is not supported on the top it inevitably has to be pulled sideways and tilts nearly 1.2 mm from side to side. I noted your comment and probably agree with the possible binding an upper track may create.
I posted a picture of the worm shafts which all show how the silver coating has worn away which to me is an indication of the sideways friction between the line guide and worm shaft.
Should I be correct, that it is more likely the retrieve that causes the wear and tear that I am experiencing then it should be no different if it were a synchronised level winding system. However the latter type may have more wear and tear from the fast left to right movement during a cast.
I would not know how to conclusively test this, but does it really matter? :D
Quote from: Sonnett on May 20, 2020, 05:16:22 PM
. After casting for an extended period of time (an hour lets say) I find line piling up one end of the spool. This problem is present in all the non-synchronized reels I have used. I have burnt up a good many brain cells trying to figure out the reason for this. Levelwind not centered before the cast? Casts all bout the same length?
Spool not centered? For example, if the spool tension knob was loose enough, and you angled the reel a bit toward one side the spool would shift over, and the last couple wraps would overlap. Each cast clears some/most/all of the bunched up line, so it is unlikely that this is building up as the day goes on unless your casts keep getting shorter.
Maybe someone who has more experience with different freshwater levelwind models might have a better idea.
Quote from: Cor on May 20, 2020, 08:32:22 PM
Quote from: jurelometer on May 06, 2020, 02:09:03 AM
Quote from: Cor on May 04, 2020, 02:55:56 PM
I have caught enough strong fish on the Tranx to know after 6 years of use that the levelwind mechanism is strong enough to handle any reasonable pull on it. The only discerning permanent damage I have is that after catching a Yellowfin tuna of 150lb the extra idler gear "axle" is quite badly scarred and worn. Otherwise I keep replacing the worm shaft and line guide pawl.
My assertion is that if the Tranx did not have a disengaging levelwind these parts would last longer. But you fish long and hard enough that you would probably beat up any design :)
Mimmmm......
when I bought the Tranx I actually did not know about engaging and disengaging levelwinders, in fact I had never used a reel like that.
Although I am not an engineer, I could figure that a levelwinding mechanism would probably take much strain and stresses and purely by its design would not be everlasting. I did have the benefit of watching one guy who had one and used it for a whole season 6 month without any serious mishaps.
Agreed. Levelwinds will always be subject to more wear. And I do agree with you conclusion that the wear that you are experiencing is probably not due to the levelwind being disengaging - since you are not using the drag much. But I still think there are several points worth discussing.
Quote
I very respectfully feel that that I am not convinced that your conclusion is correct. :-[ Since I have been using these reels the fishing has been fairly poor and I am also no longer putting in as much time as before and guesstimate I work the reel as follows in a normal Summer month:-
Number of casts and retrieves:- 8 000
Fish caught :- 20
A normal retrieve takes 1 minute, therefore the reel is in retrieve mode for 133 hours per month.
The main problem arises when the line guide and the line on the spool are out of sync putting sideways stress on all the working parts. Right?
Angled, not sideways- it would probably manifest as a twisting load on the pawl/guide.
This is the thing that differentiates the disengaging levelwind. The stresses can be quite significant when out of sync, but contrary to my original assertion, this will only happen when pulling hard and not winding. So using a disengaging levelewind with high drag settings should be pretty hard on the mechanism, but only if under high load when the guide is not not synchronized (line does not have to be going out, come to think of it).
The stresses on both synchronized and disengaging levelwinds should be pretty much the same otherwise, all else being equal in terms of design and construction.
Quote
Now that happens in two situations, 1) mainly, when a strong fish pulls line from the reel against the drag & 2) during the first few handle turns after a cast.
The Yellowtail I catch here are relatively small, 12 lb is a good average and as I use strong line I do not let the fish take line for much more then 15 seconds if any. If I were to regularly hook Tuna these reels will break, those fish take of at neck breaking speed over and over again and can quickly strip 50 yd from the reel at a time. The Yellowtail do not do that.
The first two handle turns are of no consequence I would say!
The casts only puts very light stress on the levelwind mechanism and is also of little consequence.
However I am inclined to think that perhaps the constant drag created by fast retrieving a 3 oz lure with 5/0 trebles dragging at the back in strong water and wind is more likely the culprit.
The reel is subject to this type of stress a lot more then the other.
As the line guide is not supported on the top it inevitably has to be pulled sideways and tilts nearly 1.2 mm from side to side. I noted your comment and probably agree with the possible binding an upper track may create.
I posted a picture of the worm shafts which all show how the silver coating has worn away which to me is an indication of the sideways friction between the line guide and worm shaft.
Mostly agree, but let me dive in a bit more.
This is where things get complicated. If the pawl has enough slop to twist during retrieve, then the pawl can act like a cutting surface against the edges of the worm grooves. It does not require much force, especially with lots of repetition. If the fish is taking line against the disengaging levelwind, damage on the worm would be limited to one location (more like a dent, if anything), so I am guessing that this is not the final cause of such a failure. The issue is that it puts a lot of twisting load on the line guide/pawl, and deforming the shape, or opening holes and making the fit looser. The damage then occurs when winding.
But this is only one of several reasons that the pawl can get sloppy and wear out the worm. The fact that you are seeing the entire surface of the guide worm losing its plating means that there is also mating surface fictional wear. since there is some clearance there, and these surfaces do not rub, this suggests to me that sand/dust is getting in there (oil is a magnet for this stuff). You could be experiencing more than one form of wear at the same time.
My point is that this angular load under high drag is quite dramatic, and not something one would be willing to simulate by twisting the line guide with a pair of pliers at the same level of force. But I agree that there are many other thingd that can wear out a levelwind.
Quote
Should I be correct, that it is more likely the retrieve that causes the wear and tear that I am experiencing then it should be no different if it were a synchronised level winding system. However the latter type may have more wear and tear from the fast left to right movement during a cast.
Agreed. If you don't have fish pulling at high drag settings, the main negative of the disengaging levelwind is not experienced. Even if the speed of the sync levelwind during the cast did not make much of a difference in wear, the mechanism is taking twice the number of passes for each cast/retrieve.
I was pretty much sold on the idea of disengaging levelwinds being superior until I calculated the load when out of sync. So in the end, all else being equal, a disengaging levelwind will have the upper hand unless you crank down the drag and hook some bigger fish that pull hard. Big fish as in yellowfin tuna. This will not be an issue for things like largemouth bass.
Quote
I would not know how to conclusively test this, but does it really matter? :D
What you could do is set your drag to the max in the specs (22 lb?), and hook up a couple dozen 50 + lb tuna and report back :) But it sounds like it only took one to break the levelwind idler :)
In the end, if something else breaks first, then you are 100% right. It doesn't matter for that reel. But it still matters for figuring out how to design the best possible reel.
I was planning on taking my sync levelwind Komodo after mid sized Tuna in the late summer, but there is a good chance that this trip will not happen due to COVID :(
-J
Lockdown time conversation. ;D
1) Like you, I agree with most of what you say. Although I wash with fresh water after every trip and clean and lubricate the worm and blow dust and debris out the grooves with a compressor weekly, it is not practically possible to keep it without dust or even some salt residue.
I also do not think the exterior wear on the worm is the major problem. It is the small line guide pawl that takes the brunt of the wear and that caused breakage of the pawl cap and bunching of the line.
It is not possible to see if some wear is on inside of the "plastic" line guide.
2) I once tested the drag to 26 lb if I remember correctly. No test is required to see how long the reel will last with >50 lb tunas, I've already provided that answer. Actually <50 lb could be fun.
3) At the end of the day these reels have provided me with a solution to a specific problem. As I've been told a few times "the ongoing maintenance and cost is the price I have to pay" :-\
I have sometimes thought about designing the perfect reel, but that would have to be very specific to a type of fishing. For what I do, I would probably toss the levelwind away and go back to the finger guide, but then that would also mean I would use mono or overcome the problem of wet braid cutting wet finger. :-\ :-\
Thanks.
PS I need to make an adjustable magnetic cast control on these reels, static works but not as well as can be. I'll start another thread sometime, something to think about!
Glad you are posting Cor, it means you are not locked up in the Simon's Town cells
Quote from: CapeFish on May 21, 2020, 05:32:58 PM
Glad you are posting Cor, it means you are not locked up in the Simon's Town cells
Getting close, I can see fish from my house and will have to break the lock down very soon!👮♂️👮♂️😷
Quote from: Cor on May 21, 2020, 08:58:09 AM
Lockdown time conversation. ;D
1) Like you, I agree with most of what you say. Although I wash with fresh water after every trip and clean and lubricate the worm and blow dust and debris out the grooves with a compressor weekly, it is not practically possible to keep it without dust or even some salt residue.
I also do not think the exterior wear on the worm is the major problem. It is the small line guide pawl that takes the brunt of the wear and that caused breakage of the pawl cap and bunching of the line.
It is not possible to see if some wear is on inside of the "plastic" line guide.
2) I once tested the drag to 26 lb if I remember correctly. No test is required to see how long the reel will last with >50 lb tunas, I've already provided that answer. Actually <50 lb could be fun.
3) At the end of the day these reels have provided me with a solution to a specific problem. As I've been told a few times "the ongoing maintenance and cost is the price I have to pay" :-\
I have sometimes thought about designing the perfect reel, but that would have to be very specific to a type of fishing. For what I do, I would probably toss the levelwind away and go back to the finger guide, but then that would also mean I would use mono or overcome the problem of wet braid cutting wet finger. :-\ :-\
Thanks.
PS I need to make an adjustable magnetic cast control on these reels, static works but not as well as can be. I'll start another thread sometime, something to think about!
I like the mag control on the side of the Lexa 400. Set it to a '7' and throw JRI-4's without my thumb on the spool except to stop it when the jig hits the water. It works so well even a Canook can do it.
Quote from: MarkT on May 21, 2020, 07:58:45 PM
I like the mag control on the side of the Lexa 400. Set it to a '7' and throw JRI-4's without my thumb on the spool except to stop it when the jig hits the water. It works so well even a Canook can do it.
It's nice isn't it - my dad can lob a 4oz jig without really thinking about it and it never, ever overruns. He doesn't even stop the spool when the jig hits.
what about drifting in rivers? I am in BC and we drift for salmon. Can be large. Does a non-synchronized baitcaster impeded having a more natural drift then a synchronized levelwind?
The sharper angle also increases the load on the line and could cause it to break when fishing at high drag pressure or over using your thumb.
https://hoistcentral.com/sling-load-angle
Quote from: wfjord on May 04, 2020, 02:49:41 AMI think the ceramic eyelet insert in the line guide greatly reduced tension on the line during the cast since the line guide would be sitting stationary
The side load does not change, the ceramic insert is for friction.
Quote from: Keta on November 01, 2022, 02:36:56 PMThe sharper angle also increases the load on the line and could cause it to break when fishing at high drag pressure or over using your thumb.
https://hoistcentral.com/sling-load-angle
Quote from: wfjord on May 04, 2020, 02:49:41 AMI think the ceramic eyelet insert in the line guide greatly reduced tension on the line during the cast since the line guide would be sitting stationary
The side load does not change, the ceramic insert is for friction.