Reel Repair by Alan Tani

Fly Fishing => Fly Reels => Topic started by: Rancanfish on May 09, 2020, 01:55:49 AM

Title: A good fly reel? / Topic veer - hammers
Post by: Rancanfish on May 09, 2020, 01:55:49 AM
I have a fly rod that a friends dad made for me when we were maybe 23 years old.  And I have a fly reel. A simple little machine.

But, I see fly reels for $300 + and think 'Why'?  There doesn't seem to be much to them.

EDIT:  changed title to match content.    ;D
Title: Re: A good fly reel?
Post by: foakes on May 09, 2020, 03:01:17 AM
One thing that I have observed over the years, Randy --

Having been involved in 50 years of retail during my working career --

And this is counter-intuitive to most of us on this site --

If a good quality product is not selling well -- nine times out of ten, just raise the price to a level you think is ridiculous -- then it will get more attention, activity, and a more well healed buyer who thinks that because something costs more -- it must be better.  And you will make more money and not have to work so hard to sell as many items.

Plus, the buyer will be able to brag to all of his buddies how much his reel cost.

Fly reels should be of a good, solid quality, function well, etc. -- but at the end of the day, it is really the rod, the skill of the angler, and the presentation of the proper fly or streamer -- the reel is merely a simple line retrieval mechanism.

This is only my opinion -- based on personal experience.

Others may/will have different thoughts.

Best, Fred
Title: Re: A good fly reel?
Post by: Tiddlerbasher on May 09, 2020, 03:33:36 PM
I have used many fly rods and reels, I still have nearly all of them.
Fly fishing, usually freshwater, has become my prime hoby. Older heavier rods required a heavier reel to get that feel/balance that I like.
Modern ultra light rods require a much lighter reel to achieve a similar balance. With time I have moved from buget price equipment to the best I can afford.
I currently use Orvis Helios 3 rods with Mirage LT reels. The outfits balance perfectly and even though I have bad arthritis in my hands and wrists I can cast all day without suffering too badly.
The Mirage reels are lovely pieces of engineering that will cope with anything in freshwater and anything on the flats like bonefish. The largest fish todate, which was a complete surprise, a 12.5 lb mirror carp! I was casting to a rising bow at the time :D The very smooth drag of the reel was ideal for this scenario and the rod at full flex was a joy ;D
I don't try to justify the cost of my fishing tackle. It is more about that's what I want and that's what it costs.
You can always find something cheaper that will do a job. But if you want craftmanship and quality engineering there will inevitably be a price to pay - it's a personal choice and we are all different.
Title: Re: A good fly reel?
Post by: jurelometer on May 09, 2020, 05:37:46 PM
There is a couple things that drive the cost.

First of all there is a lack of volume.  There are not nearly as many fly fisherman as conventional and spinning.  But ironically,  there are tons of fly reel manufacturers,  including lots of botique manufacturers.  The pie is split into so many small pieces that nobody gets much economy of scale.  


I read somewhere that Abel. (probably the biggest name in premium saltwater fly reels) sales volume is only in the low tens of thousands of units.  

The fact that fly reels are so simple makes the cost of market entry too low.   When I started to teach myself CNC machining, I thought that a fly reel would be a good rookie project.   That is how easy it is. It seems like every guy that runs a machine shop that like to fly fish has a branded premium reel. And nearly every fly rod maker has  one or more lines of reels.

Next there is actually a market demand for higher priced reels driven by higher priced rods.  From the days of split cane to modern carbon fiber, there is a  range of rod prices that gets into the extreme.    Once you buy that $900 USD rod,  you NEED a $500 reel.   No way that you are going to hang a $20 reel on there.

--------
Starting with freshwater trout through saltwater bonefish,  any reel that does not blow up on you that has an exposed rim for palming is all that you need.  Palming for drag is actually preferred by a lot of anglers.

The way most light reels blow up are one-way bearings failing, ball bearings rusting out, and  the quick release spool mechanism accidentally releasing on a fast run.

Once you get into larger fish, a solid drag becomes important.  Since folks like their reels to be light,  in addition to the above issues, add in frames flexing and spools collapsing from too-thin walls and over-porting. Many saltwater reels get rid of the quick release spool or use a beefed up mechanism.

If your target species takes a lot of line,  spool arbor size and width comes into play. With no gears, it takes a lot of winding, so a larger arbor can help.

Balancing the weight of the reel with the rod sometimes matters.  A very light reel with a modern light rod makes casting lighter rods up to about 6-7 weights a much more pleasant experience as Tiddlebasher pointed out.  On single handed rods, it is less important as the rod weights go up, with some folks still insisting on balance and others not caring that much.

I am not a two handed rod guy other than overhead casting, but the spey rod  guys seem to care a lot about balance, but that often means looking for a heavier reel.

And the last thing to think about is sand/silt ingress.  Since the reel is at the very bottom of the rod, if the base of the rod touches ground/bottom, dirt is probably going to get in.  So if you are wading or beach fishing, you need to pick a reel that is easy to de-sand in the field (my preference)  or protected by seals.

There are good reels to be had out there, but lots of junk. Low price point junk, high price point junk.  A lot of the popular high dollar reels are junk IMHO.  A lot of what makes these reels junk is trading off reliability and strength for bling.

For trout fishing, I would look for a reasonably light reel without any ball bearings or one way bearings, a palming rim, and the ability to get all the sand out and keep fishing with a quick rinse and no disassembly. I like the older Ross reels. The anti-reverse mechanism is not very heavy duty, but it doesn't matter.  Don't know what they go for nowadays.  

My $0.02,

-J
Title: Re: A good fly reel?
Post by: Tiddlerbasher on May 09, 2020, 07:01:07 PM
If a fly reel has a sealed drag I want it watertight - not that easy. Rather a click and pawl if not totally watertight. Trying to clean out a 'semi-whatever-maybe-on a good day-it might keep something out' type of reel no longer appeals to me. Been there and done that. I've played with many - I don't want a failure on that 'ONE' special fish.
When I had access to a small workshop the first reel I tried to fabricate was a centre pin or mooching reel. It was 'ok', it worked. Then I tried to add a drag system - a simple click anti over run worked fine. Next a disk drag system - that part never really got completed. I never did complete a fly reel project. I couldn't balance weight/performance.
When I pay heavy duty £s for tackle it has to be good. E.g. When I pay £300 for a reel it has to be better than just a 'trout' reel - I want it to do double/treble duty as a pike/saltwater reel as well.
I agree with Dave on almost everything he stated. BUT I would put a 20$ reel on a $900 rod if it worked. I've tried it, really, the balance/size/arbour wasn't right for me. This always can get very subjective.
If I were using a 3wt rod I would use a click and pawl reel, probably a Battenkill (I know and luv 'em even if they are made in PRC now). For a 7/8wt, for me, it must be a watertight disc drag with a sealed ar bearing - Because I want it to do a lot more than winch in a 8oz trout! 
Title: Re: A good fly reel?
Post by: Gfish on May 09, 2020, 09:06:17 PM
For me Randy, a pretty good middle-of-the-road freshwater reel was the old Hardy Marquis series 6. Made in England by Scientific Anglers(I think), good for Trout, etc.,  on 4 - 7 wt. rods. The new ones of this model look to be way too expensive. My oldie had good tolerances, materials, relatively lightweight and the drag adjustibility you'ed need for that type of fishing. Saw one on Da Bay for ~ $40.
Title: Re: A good fly reel?
Post by: pjstevko on May 10, 2020, 02:27:33 AM
Check out the fly reels from....

https://www.piscifun.com/

I love my Sword II for trout
Title: Re: A good fly reel?
Post by: wfjord on May 10, 2020, 03:36:52 AM
Quote from: Gfish on May 09, 2020, 09:06:17 PM
For me Randy, a pretty good middle-of-the-road freshwater reel was the old Hardy Marquis series 6. Made in England by Scientific Anglers(I think), good for Trout, etc.,  on 4 - 7 wt. rods. The new ones of this model look to be way too expensive. My oldie had good tolerances, materials, relatively lightweight and the drag adjustibility you'ed need for that type of fishing. Saw one on Da Bay for ~ $40.

The Scientific Anglers System #4 thru #11 reels were made by Hardy; Hardy quit making them for SA and started marketing the exact same reel as the "Hardy Marquis."

I have some Hardy Marquis and also several Hardy-made SA System reels.  I've used a Marquis #6 extensively for many years as my primary trout reel for 5wt DT lines -- and last year acquired a mint vintage SA System 5 for a WF-5-F line.  They do have excellent tolerances, and the used ones aren't getting any cheaper.  The new generation of machined Marquis are out of my price range.

Also have a vintage Hardy-made Orvis CFO III and Hardy-made Orvis Battenkill Mark IV, both click-pawl reels, that I use with 4-weight lines.
Title: Re: A good fly reel?
Post by: Jim Fujitani on May 11, 2020, 05:57:40 PM
I did not know that Hardy made reels for SA. 

I made the jump from Pflueger Medalists for Trout and Steelhead to Hardy Perfect for King Salmon back in the late 70's.  The main reason was the capabilities of the Medalist were limited by the size and strength of the quarry.  I had experienced the spool side plate deformation on the Medalist after a prolonged fight with a King Salmon, so a step up was required.
Title: Re: A good fly reel?
Post by: Balvar24 on May 13, 2020, 12:27:12 PM
A quote from another thread that here I now think of everytime I see an expensive fly reel.


"Man, this is going to be difficult.  Discussing the finer points of a fly reel will be like discussing the finer points of a hammer.  Hopefully, I'm missing something.
-steve"
Title: Re: A good fly reel?
Post by: foakes on May 13, 2020, 03:52:04 PM
Quote from: Balvar24 on May 13, 2020, 12:27:12 PM
A quote from another thread that here I now think of everytime I see an expensive fly reel.


"Man, this is going to be difficult.  Discussing the finer points of a fly reel will be like discussing the finer points of a hammer.  Hopefully, I'm missing something.
-steve"

That is all true -- depending on one's knowledge, experience, and passion.

You don't need to understand all of the Principles of Electrical Engineering to flip a light switch...

I guess I could write a 20 page explanation of each type of hammer I own and use -- design, usage, benefits, shortcomings, head, facing details, handle design, handle materials, shock impact values, weights, etc, etc..

But most times -- I just need to pound a nail or form some metal.

Over the years I have noticed something that many folks miss -- just because they have never been exposed to true craftsmanship honed over a lifetime -- the top 5% of any profession or endeavor, is comprised of professionals and experts.  And...the top 1% of this group is constantly re-evaluating what they know.

The expert's expert -- will continue to sharpen their knowledge and skills -- forever.

They know that there is always something more to learn today -- even about a hammer, a peanut, or a rock.

IMO.

Best,

Fred

Title: Re: A good fly reel?
Post by: Donnyboat on May 13, 2020, 04:14:16 PM
Very true Fred, I am in my mid 70`s when I wake up every morning I say, gee I hope, I can learn something new today. cheers Don.
Title: Re: A good fly reel?
Post by: jurelometer on May 13, 2020, 06:15:38 PM
Quote from: Balvar24 on May 13, 2020, 12:27:12 PM
A quote from another thread that here I now think of everytime I see an expensive fly reel.


"Man, this is going to be difficult.  Discussing the finer points of a fly reel will be like discussing the finer points of a hammer.  Hopefully, I'm missing something.
-steve"

Well, to be fair,  it is all relative.

The fanciest two speed conventional reel is less complicated than a 1960's Plymouth Valiant one barrel carburetor:

(https://www.carburetion.com/Images/Diagrams2/H1-1920.jpg)

The thing that makes reels interesting to me is that they are simple enough that any mechanically inclined person can design one, and complicated enough that there can be lots of variations in the design.   Plus there are a ton of different designs out there, many of which you can get your hands on for just a few bucks.  It is a game that any interested person can join.

Analyzing reel design has taught me about the multitude of ways different people can approach the same simple mechanical design problem, how much misguided market demand can screw up the function of a product, how marketing further messes with our perceptions to keep us replacing product, and so on.

A simpler product lays all this bare.

To add to Fred's points, there is a certain discipline and skill in making something better by making it simpler.   As somebody who designs stuff for work and for fun,  I think that most folk do not appreciate the combination of science, experience, analytical skill and creativity it takes to come up with a good design. 

If you took 100 random people off the street, erased any memory that they had of what a hammer looked like and asked them to design a hammer for construction work, at least 99 of the designs would probably suck.  The chance of somebody coming up with a nice balanced claw hammer is virtually zero. 

And BTW, when doctors learned more recently about repetitive motion injury, even the venerable claw hammer design evolved to be gentler on human joints.

If you look at the majority of modern fly reel designs (and there are way too many) it is fascinating to see so many functional flaws.  It makes one sad to ponder how much this must also creep into more complicated mechanical designs from blenders to nuclear power plants...

Just my opinion,

-J
Title: Re: A good fly reel?
Post by: Midway Tommy on May 13, 2020, 08:21:33 PM
Since the subject now makes comparisons to claw hammers I'll ad my thoughts. Many have tried but none have ever been able to improve on the original wood handled Plumb. It was, until the company was sold, the best balanced claw hammer ever made, especially the 13, 16 & 20 oz round claw models. Some thought the wood handle was a negative but it wasn't for those who knew how to use it correctly. It had the best designed head with it's slightly convex face and rounded edge. The original wood handle design was a perfect fit to most carpenters' hands which made for near perfect balance. Craftsman & Stanley tried to copy it but never really came close in balance. Estwing comes close in its steel handled models but they're still not as well balanced as the original wood handle Plumbs. It just goes to show that sometimes it's hard to improve on simple perfection.

BTW, coming from someone who hand nailed subfloors, wall and roof sheathings for years before nail guns were the rage, IMNSHO, most of the framing type hammers on the market today are nothing more than prehistoric clubs. Using a hammer for driving nails all boils down to strong wrist action, eyesight and a well executed, and placed, rhythm.     
Title: Re: A good fly reel?
Post by: Midway Tommy on May 13, 2020, 08:53:12 PM
I think it depends on the size and type of fish one is going after. A brookie doesn't require near the quality of equipment that coho or steelhead do. Here's a highly regarded and proven sealed drag design that Craig Harris came up with. People still pay decent bucks ($300+-) for an original MI made example. BTW, they were also sold as Gapen Wild River reels. 
Title: Re: A good fly reel?
Post by: Balvar24 on May 13, 2020, 11:13:29 PM
Quote from: Midway Tommy on May 13, 2020, 08:21:33 PM
Since the subject now makes comparisons to claw hammers I'll ad my thoughts. Many have tried but none have ever been able to improve on the original wood handled Plumb. It was, until the company was sold, the best balanced claw hammer ever made, especially the 13, 16 & 20 oz round claw models. Some thought the wood handle was a negative but it wasn't for those who knew how to use it correctly. It had the best designed head with it's slightly convex face and rounded edge. The original wood handle design was a perfect fit to most carpenters' hands which made for near perfect balance. Craftsman & Stanley tried to copy it but never really came close in balance. Estwing comes close in its steel handled models but they're still not as well balanced as the original wood handle Plumbs. It just goes to show that sometimes it's hard to improve on simple perfection.

BTW, coming from someone who hand nailed subfloors, wall and roof sheathings for years before nail guns were the rage, IMNSHO, most of the framing type hammers on the market today are nothing more than prehistoric clubs. Using a hammer for driving nails all boils down to strong wrist action, eyesight and a well executed, and placed, rhythm.      

I like a nice Bluegrass (nice reels as well) myself, when you can find one.  However, my current all-purpose everyday framing hammer is a store-branded made in the USA by Vaughan 16 oz.  My hatched is a Plumb.

My fly reels are a Dam Quick and a couple of Mitchells.  One day I plan to learn to use them properly.
Title: Re: A good fly reel?
Post by: jurelometer on May 14, 2020, 04:18:53 AM
Since this thread has devolved to the finer points of hammers, I fear that we are proving Steve right  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: A good fly reel?
Post by: oc1 on May 14, 2020, 06:31:24 AM
Wow, I had no idea that being a Plumb fan is a thing.  My first hatchet in scouting was a Plumb.  Still is, come to think of it.  Over the next sixty years we picked up a small Plumb ball peen, a larger plumb ball peen, Plumb 3#hand sledge, and two plumb claw (someone swiped the first one when wife took it to work).  You can't break or wear them out.
-steve
Title: Re: A good fly reel? / Topic veer - hammers
Post by: Balvar24 on May 14, 2020, 05:03:41 PM
As far as the handles, yes, nothing beats a nice piece of hickory.
Title: Re: A good fly reel? / Topic veer - hammers
Post by: jurelometer on May 14, 2020, 05:39:07 PM
Veering back to the original topic:

Nice to see some photos of the Solitude reel Tommy.   I have bumped into a few folk that swear by them.  Mostly river salmon/steelhead guys.

If you ever take one apart, I would love to see some photos.  I have some questions:

1.  The schematic does not show any seals or o-rings.  I was wondering if the Solitude reels were actually fully sealed.

2.  It looks like the reel has two drags - a small one with a fiber washer inside the drag knob, and a larger cork drag inside the "sealed" chamber on the inside of the sideplate.  Is that right?

3. It looks like the anti-reverse is a one way bearing press fit into a housing.  I read that after the company was sold to a machine shop in Washington, the design was changed to a slip fit with a circlip, so the bearing could be  replaced or flipped over to change between right/ left retrieve.   I am not a big one way bearing fan, and would worry about salt getting into the clutch mechanism.  Curious as to how well protected the one-way bearing is.

It seems that the Solitude reel was  designed with winter steelhead fishing in mind, and went to some lengths to prevent frozen water from affecting the drag and clutch.  The extra weight made the reel more resilient to being bounced off of rocks when wading, and the type III anodizing on the black reels meant better scratch resistance, which comes in handy with an exposed palming rim in addition to preserving the cosmetics.

I am not sold on this being a great reel for saltwater, but in many ways it foreshadowed the trend toward sealed reels that is so common nowadays.  An interesting reel for sure.

-J
Title: Re: A good fly reel? / Topic veer - hammers
Post by: Gfish on May 14, 2020, 06:00:11 PM
Sorry for backtracking a bit. The carb. thing was interesting relative to simplicity.
Had a '74 Valiant, that dad sold to me cause he was sick of it not running right. I had a '68 Valiant already and lived in a Snow zone in the mountains. All through the winter's from '77-'79, the '68 with many more miles on it, started easily, the '74---nope. At times the '74 wouldn't start at all.
That was a good side by side comparison. Chrysler just didn't respond engineering-wise to Fed. Clean Air Act standards after '73. By '80 they had to be rescued by Mitsubishi Corp.
Title: Re: A good fly reel? / Topic veer - hammers
Post by: jurelometer on May 14, 2020, 06:12:50 PM
I was kinda expecting the Valiant carb verge off-topic, but the hammer merits thing caught me off guard.


Keeping us on topic is like herding cats ( myself included).   :)

Hopefully the next reply will not be about cats  ::)

-J
Title: Re: A good fly reel? / Topic veer - hammers
Post by: wfjord on May 14, 2020, 07:22:22 PM
Quote from: jurelometer on May 14, 2020, 06:12:50 PM
I was kinda expecting the Valiant carb verge off-topic, but the hammer merits thing caught me off guard.

Keeping us on topic is like herding cats ( myself included).   :)

Hopefully the next reply will not be about cats  ::)

-J

How about this:

Had a '74 Valiant back in the day. Sawed off the back half of the body (top, doors & quarter panels), removed back seats, laid down two pieces of 3/4" plywood to make a casting deck upon which I mounted a pedistal and swivel seat.  My brother drove me through the neighborhood while I used an 8wt line w/homemade shooting head to cast a large weedless deceiver to any local cats milling around.  Sold the cats to a local restaurant to make money to buy beer.  Accidently left a hammer under the hood of the car which got stuck in a fanbelt and destroyed the carburetor.  Got rid of the car. Got arrested because of the cats.


Will probably delete this post shortly.
Title: Re: A good fly reel? / Topic veer - hammers
Post by: Gfish on May 14, 2020, 09:51:49 PM
Nah, come-on that was a good one, keep it. "A", for creativity and using all given elements. You had me goin till the selling cat's to a local resturant.
Title: Re: A good fly reel? / Topic veer - hammers
Post by: Tiddlerbasher on May 15, 2020, 12:13:42 AM
 ;D -Selling pussy that's a new one ;D ;D
Title: Re: A good fly reel? / Topic veer - hammers
Post by: Midway Tommy on May 15, 2020, 01:46:26 AM
Quote from: jurelometer on May 14, 2020, 05:39:07 PM
Veering back to the original topic:

Nice to see some photos of the Solitude reel Tommy.   I have bumped into a few folk that swear by them.  Mostly river salmon/steelhead guys.

If you ever take one apart, I would love to see some photos.  I have some questions:

1.  The schematic does not show any seals or o-rings.  I was wondering if the Solitude reels were actually fully sealed.

2.  It looks like the reel has two drags - a small one with a fiber washer inside the drag knob, and a larger cork drag inside the "sealed" chamber on the inside of the sideplate.  Is that right?

3. It looks like the anti-reverse is a one way bearing press fit into a housing.  I read that after the company was sold to a machine shop in Washington, the design was changed to a slip fit with a circlip, so the bearing could be  replaced or flipped over to change between right/ left retrieve.   I am not a big one way bearing fan, and would worry about salt getting into the clutch mechanism.  Curious as to how well protected the one-way bearing is.

It seems that the Solitude reel was  designed with winter steelhead fishing in mind, and went to some lengths to prevent frozen water from affecting the drag and clutch.  The extra weight made the reel more resilient to being bounced off of rocks when wading, and the type III anodizing on the black reels meant better scratch resistance, which comes in handy with an exposed palming rim in addition to preserving the cosmetics.

I am not sold on this being a great reel for saltwater, but in many ways it foreshadowed the trend toward sealed reels that is so common nowadays.  An interesting reel for sure.

-J

That's pretty much the story I've heard, too. I don't have a Solitude but the Gapen Wild River III is mine. It's pretty much like new so I've never thought about opening it up other than pulling the spool. I've had it for six or seven years and haven't even fished it yet.

Here's a couple more pics of the Wild River III and a copy of a Gapen catalog page discussing them. If you click on the catalog photo it will enlarge.  
Title: Re: A good fly reel? / Topic veer - hammers
Post by: wcarah on December 08, 2020, 05:36:31 PM
As has been mentioned earlier in this posting, there are many fly reel suppliers for a limited and static market.  The increasing participation of PRC manufacturers has actually introduced a new level of quality to the industry that has forced most suppliers into very high quality level aluminum cast and machined models.  The result is that there are many more good quality reels available than there once was and at reasonable prices.  Outside the very low end of the product spectrum, nearly all fly reels these days have good drags, excellent fit and finish, and long term durability.  If you are undecided about which reel to choose, take a look at a video produced by fly fishing guru Kelly Galloup for a frank and revealing discussion on what is really important in fly reel selection. Modestly priced models can have all the features you need for an enjoyable fly fishing experience.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmX6nJ6u2Kg

Warren
Title: Re: A good fly reel? / Topic veer - hammers
Post by: Midway Tommy on December 08, 2020, 06:32:42 PM
I really enjoyed his take on drags & over rated drag power. That same concept can be used with spinning reels on most freshwater species, too. I've always thought it was way more important to have an ultra smooth drag rather than one that gets cranked down. Maybe that's because I use lighter line than most, generally 8 lb. max mono, except on my catfish, musky & pike outfits where 17lb. mono is max. I like to use the rod & line stretch to play the fish. Just cranking them in isn't much fun for me.
Title: Re: A good fly reel? / Topic veer - hammers
Post by: wcarah on December 08, 2020, 09:21:05 PM
You are right, with the lighter tippets I generally use for trout sized quarry, drag smoothness is more essential than stopping power, even with bigger steelhead.  With fish like salmon and northerns it's usually more of a tug of war and then I use a much heavier line and leader and a comparably sized reel with full disc drag.  I like the click and pawl reels of old for trout fishing since all the drag you will ever need is in the palm of your hand.  I also have some light duty disc drag models like the ABU Garcia Diplomat fly reels from the late 1970's which are good general all-around fly reels for trout and bass.  Outstanding classic reels made by Pflueger, Cortland, Martin, Ryobi and Orvis are available on the used market at very reasonable prices.  For saltwater, I would likely go with the newer reel designs with sealed drags.  You can spend a fortune on these reels and for my money you can get the same performance from lesser brands if you do your research.

Warren
Title: Re: A good fly reel? / Topic veer - hammers
Post by: jurelometer on December 08, 2020, 09:43:09 PM
I am going to have to go a bit contrarian on you guys :)

While Galloup did make some points that were accurate for freshwater fishing, I disagree with a lot of it when it comes to saltwater.

Nearly any reel will be strong enough for freshwater species.   The most important feature (which was not mentioned) is an exposed rim for palming.  Palming is a great way to provide lighter drag, and for that backspin trick that Galloup was showing to pick up extra fly line and get the fish on the reel. An old Phlueger Medalist would be as effective a tool as any modern freshwater reel if it had an exposed smooth spool lip for palming.  And it would be more durable.  I have only taken about half a dozen  pike or muskie over 15 lbs, but have not have to ever put them on the reel, or even give them any line unless they eat right at the rod tip.  With bigger salmon in the river, lots of drag just means a long run downstream, just like Galloup said. I only tried that once :)

Sealed "maintenance free" reels are a nightmare.   They work until they don't, and many models are not easily serviceable and/or will void the warranty if you take them apart.   Underneath one of the seals is our old frenemy, the 440c stainless "one-way bearing".  Once the seals (usually just o-rings) dry out, wear out, or get contaminated, water gets in and if it is saltwater, the bearing rust quickly, and the reel  either loses the drag, or locks up.  Every year down in Baja, I run into folks who haven't fished their one or two year old reel for a year and now the reel is misbehaving.  With a standard dog and pawl clutch, just a bit a cleaning and maybe a cork re-lube if it is a cork drag, and I have them back in business.    But a rusted in one way bearing means that the reel is out of action, and possibly not worth saving.

The extra light saltwater reels can be pulled off the foot.  The frame will twist sideways- especially on tall/wide/light reels (all the fly reels that I have ever seen support the spool shaft on only one side), causing the spool to rub on the frame. There are some photos on the interwebs of spools buckling on big name lightweight reels when the drag is cranked down on a big fish.

Carbon fiber drags are pretty common now, but they are nearly always dry.  So when a sealed reel leaks a bit, the drag gets sticky.    

On wide vs narrow reels, the problems Galloup is mentioning must be unique to trout (small fish) tackle.  For saltwater reels, narrow spools require less leveling when winding, but are more prone to wedging the fly line under load. A wider arbor allows for the same amount of backing with a taller spool, which means more inches wound per revolution, but you have to pay more attention to packing the backing and fly line evenly.  There is sort of a sweet spot that balances arbor width and reel strength around 1 to 1 1/4 inch in arbor width for most reels IMHO.

For purely freshwater fishing in the vast majority of situations, most of the corrosion issues are not going to manifest, and following Galloup's advice could be fine.  But for saltwater fishing, I am not in agreement.  I personally would still avoid "maintenance free"/sealed reels for freshwater.  Plain bearings (AKA bushings) are better than ball bearings.

My take for saltwater:  Get a reel without a one way bearing if possible.  Avoid sealed reels unless you need the protection from sand getting in the reel when beach fishing or wading.  If you get a sealed reel, get one that is designed to opened up for maintenance by the customer, and consider picking up a backup one way bearing.   Plain bearings (AKA bushings) are better than ball bearings. A larger arbor is important for winding, but avoid ultralight "squirrel cage" reels.  Just go up a size if you want a larger arbor. Agree with Galloup that a little extra weight is not noticeable.  Smooth is more important than powerful when it comes to drag, but a stronger drag is really nice to have, and becomes critical when you get into larger species.   Just letting them run is not a viable strategy for many species.  While pretty much all saltwater fly reel knobs suck, try to find a knob that is not terrible for winding under load, but still allows you to slide your fingers off quickly for when a fish takes line at high speeds so you don't break a finger.  There are a few good saltwater fly reels at medium to high price points, and lots of reels that don't hold up well at all price points.  Price does not guaranty quality.    Conventional or spinning reel makers that get into the fly reel business usually know how to make a reel that is mechanically capable, but often get critical dimensions or features wrong.  

YMMV,

-J
Title: Re: A good fly reel? / Topic veer - hammers
Post by: Benni3 on December 09, 2020, 12:16:24 AM
I went to a orvis 101 fly fishing class,,,,hehe,,,, ;) and it was funny,,,,, :D the instructor then started selling us on the mirage fly reel $800,,,,, :o but he couldn't tell me anything about the drag set up or what type of metal the parts was made out of,,,,,, >:( for freshwater the line is more important and having your rig set up right,,,,,, ;D
Title: Re: A good fly reel? / Topic veer - hammers
Post by: jurelometer on December 09, 2020, 05:56:45 AM
Quote from: Benni3 on December 09, 2020, 12:16:24 AM
I went to a orvis 101 fly fishing class,,,,hehe,,,, ;) and it was funny,,,,, :D the instructor then started selling us on the mirage fly reel $800,,,,, :o but he couldn't tell me anything about the drag set up or what type of metal the parts was made out of,,,,,, >:( for freshwater the line is more important and having your rig set up right,,,,,, ;D

And he KNOWS that if he can talk you into a $800 reel, he is that much closer to talking you into a $900 rod to go with it ;).

Agree with you on the fly lines.  If you can't get the fly to the fish, it doesn't matter what type of reel that you are using.

The next video that popped up from Galloup was on fly line selection.  After he said something along the lines that distance doesn't matter, and that being able to cast 60 feet is unnecessary, I quit watching.   If you cannot cast 60 feet in normal conditions from the bank, you are not close to being in the game for saltwater.  I think it is important to not project  the demands of one fishery onto another. It is like the guy on the mini-golf course telling you that you only need a putter  ::)

If you talk to ANY saltwater guide, the number one, two and three issue with clients are that too many do not have the distance casting chops to be in the game.  If you can lay out a good long cast, it is never a disadvantage, and will make your short game better.

-J
Title: Re: A good fly reel? / Topic veer - hammers
Post by: Tiddlerbasher on December 09, 2020, 01:02:26 PM
If you are sight fishing small streams and rivers accuracy is everything distance less so. If you can't put the fly in front of the trout's nose you are on a looser.
But I agree with Dave - of course distance is important, not just for saltwater. No rising fish and a large lake means you are fishing blind, searching for fish at various depths and speeds with a variety of lines and flies. Being able to lay out a long cast means you cover more water and hopefully fish. To cast a long line requires technique combined with a matched rod and line. Just because both the rod and line are #6 wt doesn't necessarily mean they will work together. Finding the right combination will improve distance and accuracy. When I purchased a new expensive rod, 2 years ago, I stuck on a reel and line I already had. I nearly sent the rod back - everything felt wrong - the line/rod felt like #6wt line on an #8wt rod - and the reel felt very heavy so I couldn't 'feel' the rod. I changed lines a few times until I found one I liked. Then, inevitably, a new reel ::) For me the reel needs to 'balance' the outfit. I use both click/pawl and disc drag reels - horses for courses ;D. JMHO
Title: Re: A good fly reel? / Topic veer - hammers
Post by: Benni3 on December 11, 2020, 03:43:49 AM
Yes getting to the hot spots is best,,,,,, :o I'm working on a 9wt after getting a used thomas & thomas rod $60 jeff is restoring the guides the top shot $50but with uncle sal's giftcard=$25,,,,, :D he will be forever helping me catch fish,,,,,,, ;) reel,,,,I could have gone with a carlton,,,seamaster,,,bogdan but missed out on a 1912 hardy on pbay,,,, ::) but that's ok,,,,,, :-[ could have gotten a abel but there all sock drawer reels,,,,, ;) just went with a sage spectrum c with the backing $138 the rod is most important here,,,just got to catch a fish on it,,,,,,, ;D
Title: Re: A good fly reel? / Topic veer - hammers
Post by: Tiddlerbasher on February 24, 2021, 08:14:58 PM
Benni - you need some backing under that fly line ;)
Title: Re: A good fly reel? / Topic veer - hammers
Post by: CI_Seawolf on May 21, 2023, 08:29:57 PM
Even in the light applications for trout, a smooth drag is important.  I landed a 24" rainbow on the Clark Fork with a 7x tippet, kept my palm off the rim the whole time and let the reel's drag do the work.  Rod was the guide's 9' 5wt Powell, reel was a Ross, don't recall the model.
Title: Re: A good fly reel? / Topic veer - hammers
Post by: jurelometer on May 22, 2023, 12:43:10 AM
QuoteEven in the light applications for trout, a smooth drag is important.  I landed a 24" rainbow on the Clark Fork with a 7x tippet, kept my palm off the rim the whole time and let the reel's drag do the work.

I personally don't think much about the drag mechanism in small fly reels. I am more in the "palming is an important skill" camp.  You will have the smoothest and most dynamic/responsive drag system by using a combination of your brain and your palm. "Click-pawl" reels with no drag at all make up a non-insignificant chunk of the the higher end trout reel  market.

While there is never a downside to having smooth drag, the fly line will wedge and jam a bit until the fish takes all of it off of the spool, causing more stickiness than most drag mechanisms at lower settings.

A 7x tippet is probably somewhere around 2lb test at the knot. IMHO, the best drag setting in this situation as close to zero as you can get without over-spinning on a run, and then dynamically adjusting the drag by palming,  based on whatever is happening at the moment.

Palming with light tippet can lead to more breakoffs if you are learning or haven't fished this way in a while, so I could see how palming is something that a trout guide might not encourage.

Palming is an important part of my (mostly saltwater) repertoire.  I usually am running a much higher drag setting than most, but still end up palming a bit on just about every fish that I get on the reel.

BTW- Enjoyed your recent trip report.  I got a contact "stoke" from reading it :)

-J.

Title: Re: A good fly reel? / Topic veer - hammers
Post by: CI_Seawolf on May 22, 2023, 05:18:33 PM
Thanks for your feedback on my Madison trip.  I agree that in most cases, palming the reel is a great skill that takes time to master.  I have had skin burned off my hands on a hot run by a bonito or Alaskan salmon.  Also fanning the reel to pick up line to get the fish to play off the reel is a skill that is good to learn.   
Title: Re: A good fly reel? / Topic veer - hammers
Post by: Rancanfish on May 22, 2023, 07:58:41 PM
I've got a few small collectable fly reels.  I hope to get them out in the new boat soon.
Title: Re: A good fly reel? / Topic veer - hammers
Post by: jurelometer on May 22, 2023, 11:56:13 PM
Quote from: Rancanfish on May 22, 2023, 07:58:41 PMI've got a few small collectable fly reels.  I hope to get them out in the new boat soon.

Last time I was up in your neck of the ocean, there was a healthy black rockfish population.  It is a fabulous fly rod species if you ask me.  They usually hang around higher in the water column, and even on the surface some times.  A heavier clouser on a sinking line, and you are golden.  Even poppers on occasion.

-J 
Title: Re: A good fly reel? / Topic veer - hammers
Post by: jurelometer on May 23, 2023, 12:15:33 AM
Quote from: CI_Seawolf on May 22, 2023, 05:18:33 PMI agree that in most cases, palming the reel is a great skill that takes time to master.  I have had skin burned off my hands on a hot run by a bonito or Alaskan salmon.   

Gotta wear gloves to palm big fish, and not those frou-frou fly fishing specific gloves with no  palms.  Buff makes some decent ones, both with and without the psuedo-suede palms. Either will work.  Skin and gloves were both intact after this 20 kilo yellowfin:

(https://alantani.com/gallery/25/11927_04_09_18_11_36_07.jpeg)


-J
Title: Re: A good fly reel? / Topic veer - hammers
Post by: MarkT on May 23, 2023, 02:15:03 AM
But you need a $200 Stiletto or Martinez hammer! I have a couple of Estwings for demo... I prefer a wood handle for actually pounding nails.
Title: Re: A good fly reel? / Topic veer - hammers
Post by: Rancanfish on May 23, 2023, 03:35:51 PM
I have a 10 gallon bucket (really) full of hammers I bought at a garage sale for 5 bucks. I now have a dozen different stout wood handled hammers. Smooth and checked face. A couple are definitely made for spikes or demo.
 I also got a $700+ Greenlee metal punch kit at the same sale. I paid $50. I always had a set of the smaller punches I used for work.  I keep forgetting I'm retired and will probably never use stuff.

But by next week I will have one of the boats ready. And J-man that is a great idea. Fly fishing for blacks out of the low gunnel Whaler sounds like a bunch of fun. And I can't get tangled in tree branches, lol.
Title: Re: A good fly reel? / Topic veer - hammers
Post by: dlrider on May 27, 2023, 05:56:36 PM
I've noticed this also.  And if you put it on the top shelf, just out of reach....



Quote from: foakes on May 09, 2020, 03:01:17 AMOne thing that I have observed over the years, Randy --

Having been involved in 50 years of retail during my working career --

And this is counter-intuitive to most of us on this site --

If a good quality product is not selling well -- nine times out of ten, just raise the price to a level you think is ridiculous -- then it will get more attention, activity, and a more well healed buyer who thinks that because something costs more -- it must be better.  And you will make more money and not have to work so hard to sell as many items.

Plus, the buyer will be able to brag to all of his buddies how much his reel cost.

Fly reels should be of a good, solid quality, function well, etc. -- but at the end of the day, it is really the rod, the skill of the angler, and the presentation of the proper fly or streamer -- the reel is merely a simple line retrieval mechanism.

This is only my opinion -- based on personal experience.

Others may/will have different thoughts.

Best, Fred
Title: Re: A good fly reel? / Topic veer - hammers
Post by: DougK on May 31, 2023, 05:05:23 PM
Quote from: jurelometer on May 13, 2020, 06:15:38 PMThe fanciest two speed conventional reel is less complicated than a 1960's Plymouth Valiant one barrel carburetor

The thing that makes reels interesting to me is that they are simple enough that any mechanically inclined person can design one, and complicated enough that there can be lots of variations in the design.   Plus there are a ton of different designs out there, many of which you can get your hands on for just a few bucks.  It is a game that any interested person can join.

+1

rebuilt several carburetors in my misspent youth, I'm never doing that again..

the second point is also why I like bicycles.. simple enough to tinker on at home, complex enough to be interesting.

for me fly reel evolution ended with the Orvis CFO, to me that's the perfect trout fly reel. A palming rim, zero startup drag with the click/pawl to handle light tippets and strong trout, light and handsome, strong enough to survive me falling all over the freestone creeks with it. Pretty much everything since then has over-complicated the trout fly reel for show and selling points, without adding functionality.  A Medalist is the perfect warmwater fly reel, though I'll admit to a weakness for lever-drag reels like the Abu Delta for carp. There isn't a perfect saltwater reel yet, drags and corrosion resistance aren't solved. I have stuck with my 1990s SA System 2 as I haven't seen anything better since then. 

None of this stops me from acquiring new-to-me used fly reels though.. 
Title: Re: A good fly reel? / Topic veer - hammers
Post by: imfishin on August 13, 2023, 11:39:11 PM
 The Danielsson reels out of Sweden are about the best value for my money.
 They are worth looking at for any wide range salt or fresh water application.
 Small privately held company with exceptional customer service.
 Very high quality at really competitive pricing.
Title: Re: A good fly reel? / Topic veer - hammers
Post by: jurelometer on August 14, 2023, 10:23:00 PM
I have been eyeing the Daneilsson reels for awhile now- which one(s) you got?  The spey guys sure love them.

Machined in-house in Sweden, not outsourced.  The current direct from factory pricing (including shipping to USA) is an excellent deal compared to other reels of the same class/construction.  Prices are about the same (or more) for used Danielssons on the auction site now. 

Interesting (if sometimes quirky) designs. The form factor on the larger reels tend to be more spey focused (wide and heavy) than bluewater (narrow and a bit lighter). I'm not in love with some of the design choices for bluewater fishing, or the use of roller clutches(AKA one-way bearings).  But they have one of the few field serviceable sealed reels.  Pack an extra one way bearing, and you are probably in good shape if you don't need a monster drag.

For a sealed reel for beach casting, I would definitely consider a Danielsson H5D ($260 USD +$22 shipping) over a $600 Hatch or a $700 Nautilus- but that's me.

-J
Title: Re: A good fly reel? / Topic veer - hammers
Post by: imfishin on August 17, 2023, 09:49:33 PM
     I fish a 6nine for Bonefish and a 8twelve for Jacks and Permit.
  I fish these reels more than I do an Abel.

  I dont think there is a better value out there for these applications.
Title: Re: A good fly reel? / Topic veer - hammers
Post by: jurelometer on August 18, 2023, 12:12:05 AM
I'll keep my eyes peeled.  I will hopefully be able to lay hands on a Danielsson.  I need a beach reel. 

Not sure that Abels are worth the current retail price, but you would have to pry my Abel Supers from my cold dead hands. But they are not so great at keeping blowing beach sand out.  Where the  Abels shine is at higher loads and/or when long term reliability is important.

I was doing trips with the same group for a few years for yellowfin and (sometimes jumbo) roosterfish.  A lot of them left Abel because that didn't like to maintain the cork drag and ball bearings.  I have watched their newer, well-regarded modern sealed reels get overwhelmed when they had to crank down on a large fish.  Frames flexing/spool scraping, drags too weak, one way bearings locking up, you name it.  I just keep turning up the drag knob on the 15 year old Abel until I can stop the fish. Works like new.

If you still have any of those awful Abel Supers, let me know.  I will trade you for a nice  brand new Danielsson  6nine or 8twelve :)

-J
Title: Re: A good fly reel? / Topic veer - hammers
Post by: MarkT on August 18, 2023, 04:27:32 AM
Enough of the fly reels... who's rocking a Stiletto or Martinez?
Title: Re: A good fly reel? / Topic veer - hammers
Post by: G8trwood on August 18, 2023, 09:39:30 PM
Also fish several Danielssons, 3w 4-7 for trout and the 7-10 for inshore salt.  They have been sound. No complaints at all.  I haven't tried the 5HD for bigger fish. But they list geets in the description:)
Title: Re: A good fly reel? / Topic veer - hammers
Post by: jurelometer on August 19, 2023, 01:51:51 AM
Yeah, I saw that: "bluewater species like tarpon and sailfish" ???

Kinda tells me that this guy doesn't get around the bluewater (or probably flats) scene much.

The challenge for this type of design in saltwater is prmarily an eventual seal failure compromising the roller clutch, then getting enough drag out of  a low COF "polymer" (presumably Rulon) stack that has to fit in a relatively small diameter  sealed chamber. And then a few other questions about spool locking.  Except for the seal challenge, none of these are going to be an issue on a decent reel until you get into the higher end of usage.

On a non hammer topic veer (sorry Mark),  I don't understand the mythic status for GTs.  They are a fine game fish, and it is a blast to watch them race through a flat, but they are only about middle of the road on the toughness scale when it comes to Jack species. If you put the screws on a GT hard enough, it will just give up.

A jumbo GT on an Abel Super that was about eight years old at the time. Still going strong 7 years and lots of fish later: 

https://alantani.com/index.php/topic,19715.msg210849.html#msg210849 (https://alantani.com/index.php/topic,19715.msg210849.html#msg210849)

Title: Re: A good fly reel? / Topic veer - hammers
Post by: happyhooker on August 19, 2023, 07:40:41 PM
If imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, then the Hardy Lightweight Series and all the clones thereof may be the most flattered fly reels ever.  Simple (no drag, except what you apply yourself with your hand, and some click pawls), well-built and you can buy good used ones for $50-75 US.  Thinking specifically of the LRH model (lightweight-medium) clones specifically, including the Heddon 310, Daiwa 720, and the one I have, a Berkley 540.  Zebco, Alford, Roddy, Garcia, Compac and L.L. Bean are others who cloned.  All are IDd by the iconic 6-rivet spacing on the side.  Most will convert easily between right and left hand retrieve.

Frank