Reel Repair by Alan Tani

General Maintenance Tips => Pitfalls and Black Box Warnings => Topic started by: foakes on June 08, 2020, 03:29:46 PM

Title: Adding Increased Drag to a Reel
Post by: foakes on June 08, 2020, 03:29:46 PM
After spending a lifetime in the business -- and growing up around auto shops -- I see many similarities between souping up engines and increasing drag capabilities on fishing reels!

"Yeah, we could probably squeeze one more disk in top of the stack..."

Best,

Fred
Title: Re: Adding Increased Drag to a Reel
Post by: Crow on June 08, 2020, 03:43:10 PM
Yup !
Title: Re: Adding Increased Drag to a Reel
Post by: borchcl on June 08, 2020, 11:18:26 PM
I have been guilty of that kind of behavior !
Regards,
Charlie
Title: Re: Adding Increased Drag to a Reel
Post by: Gfish on June 09, 2020, 12:45:56 AM
Yeah, I overheated a Chrysler 225 Slant 6 and "had" to get the head shaved after the over-heat caused warpage. It actually lasted a couple more years till it blew up pretty bad.
Title: Re: Adding Increased Drag to a Reel
Post by: Ron Jones on June 09, 2020, 12:49:07 AM
THe quest for the weak link!
The Man
Title: Re: Adding Increased Drag to a Reel
Post by: Brewcrafter on June 09, 2020, 06:02:09 AM
Quote from: Gfish on June 09, 2020, 12:45:56 AM
Yeah, I overheated a Chrysler 225 Slant 6 and "had" to get the head shaved after an over-heat caused warpage. It actually lasted a couple of years till it blew up pretty bad.
Gfish, speaking from personal experience and an intimate knowledge of old Mopars, blowing up a Slant 6 AKA "Leaning Tower of Power" takes some doing! - john
Title: Re: Adding Increased Drag to a Reel
Post by: Cor on June 09, 2020, 07:04:51 AM
Because of our need to cast a lure, which most of the stronger reels don't do well, we tend to use "normal" reels, load them with 50lb mono or even 80lb (braid) and go after Yellowfin tuna.   I've seldom seen a reel just blow up. Usually the AR goes, causing the reel to spin out of control with a major backlash, broken line and painful fingers and hands from handle slap.

Sometimes there is less obvious internal damage which will accumulate and eventually also lead to failure.     We understand what we're doing and I actually find it amazing how well the reels still survive this type of treatment.

A mate of mine once gave me a bag of 6 Shimano TLD 20/40 that he had used in this manner over a number of years.    I was asked to fix where possible  and only one had a bent spindle shaft, the rest could all be repaired with minor part replacements.
Title: Re: Adding Increased Drag to a Reel
Post by: foakes on June 09, 2020, 03:24:44 PM
John & Greg --

You guys are right about those old Chrysler Slant "6" engines -- bulletproof.

When I was UCM for a major auto dealer in California over a 10 year period -- I was responsible for appraising, reconditioning, and retailing or wholesaling every trade I took in for the entire dealership.  4 or 5 a day for 10 years.  Never needed to rebuild a slant "6" engine.  The rest of the vehicle may rot away -- but the engine just keeps going.

Another engine that I am more familiar with is the old Ford Inline "6".  Lots of folks don't like this engine that Ford produced for over 31 years.  Not enough cylinders -- old man's engine -- not a drag racer, etc..

However, it has a tremendous amount of low end torque -- cast iron block and head -- 7 main bearings -- and a crankshaft that weighs more than many of the newer aluminum engines coming out of Asia or Detroit nowadays.

Matter of fact -- all of those big, brown, ugly UPS trucks that brought us our reel parts used to have these engines in them.  UPS is no dummy -- they are an efficient, effective, and profitable company.  These trucks were run for 500K miles -- then the engine was overhauled for another 500K miles of service.  Plus, the engines at 500K -- were still fine. UPS just didn't want any down-time for the next 500K. So the cost of an engine maintenance rebuild was factored into their original investment and business operating plan Projections.

Why did Ford stop making this engine? One main reason -- Too costly to produce with the quality and durable materials.

The Bulletproof cast iron block weighed more than a V-8 --

There is a parallel here with some of our quality fishing reels -- that a few of us may recognize.

Best,

Fred

Title: Re: Adding Increased Drag to a Reel
Post by: Keta on June 09, 2020, 04:43:34 PM
I fish my hot rods a bit over factory spec but I am shooting for a smoother drag at mid ranges as opposed to real high drag.   The only exception is my Tib framed 501N, with Pro Challenger guts including the "versa drag" style main gear and SS double dog bridge plate, that I fish it much higher (20#-25#) than factory spec but the extra narrow spool decreases the chance of bending a shaft and the solid frame will take a lot to flex.  Plain bearings of the Jigmaster will not fail either.  I am not sure what the weak link will be for this reel but do not want to find out.
Title: Re: Adding Increased Drag to a Reel
Post by: Cuttyhunker on June 09, 2020, 04:47:00 PM
The 300 Ford converted into a great marine engine, the GMC 292 was no slouch either, dad got 7000 hours out of one, ended up as a running take out, plane, magnaflux and valves at 3500 hours. He was easy up and down on the throttle and kept the old solid lifters about .010" sloppy from spec, the valves loved it.  Great engines, wish I could still get them for the boat.  
Title: Re: Adding Increased Drag to a Reel
Post by: Cor on June 09, 2020, 07:29:09 PM
How I wish for a car with an "old fashioned" engine like above, where the parts are in the places where you would expect them to be and were you can get to them without removing half the body and half the other engine bits first!
Title: Re: Adding Increased Drag to a Reel
Post by: Ron Jones on June 09, 2020, 07:55:03 PM
I still think a 95 F150 extra cab with a straight six is about the best work truck out there. Sort of like a jigmaster; parts from a lot of things work in it and are readily available, inexpensive to purchase and maintain and just works.
The Man
Title: Re: Adding Increased Drag to a Reel
Post by: foakes on June 09, 2020, 08:12:27 PM
Yeah, Ron --

I needed a new truck to drive personally for a business I started back in '89.

Bought a new Ford F-150 SWB XLT Lariat with full options -- A/C,  tilt, CC, PW, PDL, regular cab, 300 CID "6", with a standard shift 5-speed transmission.  It is still running well with nearly 490K on the clock.

Best,

Fred
Title: Re: Adding Increased Drag to a Reel
Post by: Newell Nut on June 25, 2020, 01:11:03 PM
I think our 98 S10 with the 4.3 six is going to be like your truck Fred. This thing runs sweet with about 218K on it. A couple years ago I drove it to NV and back to Fl and no issue at all. I drive it most of the time here to keep miles off my Tahoe.

Dwight
Title: Re: Adding Increased Drag to a Reel
Post by: steelfish on June 25, 2020, 06:43:01 PM
where is the fun if you keep everything stock and on its limits?

Title: Re: Adding Increased Drag to a Reel
Post by: Bryan Young on June 25, 2020, 07:46:05 PM
Quote from: steelfish on June 25, 2020, 06:43:01 PM
where is the fun if you keep everything stock and on its limits?
I was just going to type the same thing.

https://video.disney.com/watch/tokyo-mater-4bb39d8bf71dea8833003b15
Title: Re: Adding Increased Drag to a Reel
Post by: AJ on April 14, 2021, 12:42:42 AM
Burt Munro Land Speed record holder: "Offerings to the God of Speed"
Title: Re: Adding Increased Drag to a Reel
Post by: Butch on April 25, 2021, 10:19:09 PM
Ok... What is the "Straight Six" of the reel world?... Most all reels have an "Achilles Heel" somewhere.. Even the Penn US 113... You guys don't do any little upgrades on your 6s?
Butch
Title: Re: Adding Increased Drag to a Reel
Post by: thorhammer on April 26, 2021, 02:18:47 AM
Prolly the 6/0 with stock aluminum Penn frame and a steel main. Try and break it and let us know how it comes out.
Title: Re: Adding Increased Drag to a Reel
Post by: MarkT on April 26, 2021, 03:58:21 AM
Quote from: steelfish on June 25, 2020, 06:43:01 PM
where is the fun if you keep everything stock and on its limits?


Just start with a reel from this millennium!  Just Fugetabout  those Squidder/Jigmaster/Senators and it'll all be good!
Title: Re: Adding Increased Drag to a Reel
Post by: Cor on April 26, 2021, 07:08:57 AM
Shimano 20/40 or Diawa SL50SH. ;D ;D

Just another question:- does a fish  exert more pressure on the reel when you can hold it with a locked drag OR if you tighten your drag just to the point where it can take some line?

I think the latter!
Title: Re: Adding Increased Drag to a Reel
Post by: jurelometer on April 26, 2021, 07:54:57 AM
Quote from: Cor on April 26, 2021, 07:08:57 AM
Shimano 20/40 or Diawa SL50SH. ;D ;D

Just another question:- does a fish  exert more pressure on the reel when you can hold it with a locked drag OR if you tighten your drag just to the point where it can take some line?

I think the latter!

The most  pressure will be exerted when none can be released, so alocked drag wins. Potential wear or damage  on specific components is a different story.
Title: Re: Adding Increased Drag to a Reel
Post by: Cor on April 26, 2021, 09:44:53 AM
The scientific answer!

Mainly from Yellowtail fishing I know that it is usually possible to hold a 20 lb fish with 60 lb  line, strong rod  and locked drag and when fishing from shore.
The fish is not able to swim other then sideways nor get its head around facing away from the angler and perhaps its tail cavitates like a boat propeller.

The  moment the drag gives only slightly you can no longer hold it and if there is structure nearby you have probably lost the fight.
Title: Re: Adding Increased Drag to a Reel
Post by: Squidder Bidder on November 17, 2021, 07:48:58 PM
Quote from: Cor on June 09, 2020, 07:04:51 AM
Because of our need to cast a lure, which most of the stronger reels don't do well, we tend to use "normal" reels, load them with 50lb mono or even 80lb (braid) and go after Yellowfin tuna.   I've seldom seen a reel just blow up. Usually the AR goes, causing the reel to spin out of control with a major backlash, broken line and painful fingers and hands from handle slap.

Just from my tinkering with old Penns, it looks like the stock anti-reverse dogs are a red brass alloy with a higher copper content than the other yellower brass alloys used in the other parts of the reels' internals, including the bridge sleeve. Would I be correct in assuming that the red brass is a weaker alloy, used on purpose so that a small, easily replaceable part would fail first under high stress? In such a case a stainless steel AR dog should be the final upgrade top the internals of a reel.

However, I did open a Long Beach 60 from fleabay with one of the teeth sheared off of the sleeve in pieces and distributed inside the side plate. The dog seemed not to have been undamaged so I may be wrong here regarding the planned failure point of the AR dog.

Title: Re: Adding Increased Drag to a Reel
Post by: foakes on November 17, 2021, 08:20:09 PM
Quote from: Squidder Bidder on November 17, 2021, 07:48:58 PM
Quote from: Cor on June 09, 2020, 07:04:51 AM
Because of our need to cast a lure, which most of the stronger reels don't do well, we tend to use "normal" reels, load them with 50lb mono or even 80lb (braid) and go after Yellowfin tuna.   I've seldom seen a reel just blow up. Usually the AR goes, causing the reel to spin out of control with a major backlash, broken line and painful fingers and hands from handle slap.

Just from my tinkering with old Penns, it looks like the stock anti-reverse dogs are a red brass alloy with a higher copper content than the other yellower brass alloys used in the other parts of the reels' internals, including the bridge sleeve. Would I be correct in assuming that the red brass is a weaker alloy, used on purpose so that a small, easily replaceable part would fail first under high stress? In such a case a stainless steel AR dog should be the final upgrade top the internals of a reel.

However, I did open a Long Beach 60 from fleabay with one of the teeth sheared off of the sleeve in pieces and distributed inside the side plate. The dog seemed not to have been undamaged so I may be wrong here regarding the planned failure point of the AR dog.

90% of the time, in my experience with the Penns that come across the bench — and the angler will never admit that he did this.

The sleeve teeth that are either distorted or broken, or the dog is ruined — happens when the reel is taken into or out of gear — then back into gear — when fighting a fish.

Sort of like shifting gears in a vehicle without using the clutch.  It is a rugged procedure, at best.

Better to carefully pull back slowly on the rod — then just let it go forward a bit to relieve the pressure — and put it in gear.

Another problem is when dropping a heavy weight down in free spool — then throwing the reel in gear while the weight and bait is still going downwards.

Best, Fred
Title: Re: Adding Increased Drag to a Reel
Post by: jurelometer on November 17, 2021, 11:07:03 PM
Quote from: Squidder Bidder on November 17, 2021, 07:48:58 PM


Just from my tinkering with old Penns, it looks like the stock anti-reverse dogs are a red brass alloy with a higher copper content than the other yellower brass alloys used in the other parts of the reels' internals, including the bridge sleeve. Would I be correct in assuming that the red brass is a weaker alloy, used on purpose so that a small, easily replaceable part would fail first under high stress? In such a case a stainless steel AR dog should be the final upgrade top the internals of a reel.

However, I did open a Long Beach 60 from fleabay with one of the teeth sheared off of the sleeve in pieces and distributed inside the side plate. The dog seemed not to have been undamaged so I may be wrong here regarding the planned failure point of the AR dog.



Designing the dog to fail in order to save the a few reel parts at the expense of broken knuckles would seem like a curious tradeoff.   The dog vs pawl  (on the gear sleeve) material looks very similar to me in terms of hardness on the the old Penns.

In terms of common point of failure under load for the classic Penns:  If the reel is not worn, the gear sleeve top will round off where it connects to the handle arm when the drag is cranked up and the reel is wound against load.  An aftermarket stainless gear sleeve is a good upgrade, some folks add stainless dogs, but how useful this is depends on the reel.

Once the reel wears, it depends on the use.   If dropping in and out of gear under load is common, the eccentric /yoke assembly will get sloppy, eventually having troubling getting out of freespool. 

The other cause of  failure is the post on the bridge supporting the gear sleeve flexing.   This places the main gear and pawl out of alignment with pinion and dog respectively.  Failure, or at least stress wear  occurs more when winding under load than taking drag because  the handle arm provides leverage to pull the gear sleeve and post out of alignment  (human shoulder to hand assemblies  were not evolved to provide rotational load), either causing a failure at that moment, or decreasing the rigidity of the post - leading to a failure later under drag.   Custom longer  handle arms provide greater leverage, and aftermarket drag kits provide the potential for more drag to wind against, so while these upgrades have  benefits,  they also give the angler the ability to put more alignment  stress on the post. 

There is no economical fix for post flex, and alignment is much more important than materials.  Folks shred stainless gears, dogs slip under the pawl, etc.

We did a long thread somewhere that I think demonstrated how you can determine if a gear shredded during winding or against the drag.

IMHO, the customization that would provide the most benefit is the one that does not exist:  a side plate that houses a bearing to support the unsupported end of the handle/ gear shaft.   This would at a minimum  require a resigned gear sleeve, or even better, a solid axle, which would also mean a redesigned bridge plate.   There are aftermarket side plates, bridges and gear sleeves, so this is not impossible, but there does not appear to be much of a market  for $200 or so of customizations for an old reel to make it nearly as good as a modern $200 reel.   

As Fred noted, it is extremely stressful to throw a star drag reel into of gear against load.  Unfortunately, it is necessary for many types of fishing.  It is inconvenient to impossible to use your thumb to  stop a heavy weight that you are dropping as fast as possible to reach depth in a current.  Similar problem with live baiting in freespool  and a tuna takes off with your bait.  While we all love our star drags, this is a fundamental weakness of the design. But not always an issue, depending on the type of fishing that you do.


My $0.02,

-J
Title: Re: Adding Increased Drag to a Reel
Post by: Ron Jones on November 18, 2021, 12:01:52 AM
Quote from: jurelometer on November 17, 2021, 11:07:03 PM
Quote from: Squidder Bidder on November 17, 2021, 07:48:58 PM
  While we all love our star drags, this is a fundamental weakness of the design. But not always an issue, depending on the type of fishing that you do.
My $0.02,

-J
I don't understand how this is an issue with star drags? Unless you move the lever of a lever drag out of freespool very deliberately (not to common when a tuna starts to run) then you can shock the AR parts with the same load. If you have the Star Drag at 50% breaking strength of the line when you are in freespool then I can see it being an issue, I can also see the fish swimming away after the hook pulls out of its mouth.

If you start with the drag of a star drag backed off to where the fish will still be able to easily run when you put the reel in gear then I don't see the shock being much different than a lever drag, and you won't eat a pinion bearing when you do pour on the coal.

The Man
Title: Re: Adding Increased Drag to a Reel
Post by: jurelometer on November 18, 2021, 03:33:32 AM
Quote from: Ron Jones on November 18, 2021, 12:01:52 AM
Quote from: jurelometer on November 17, 2021, 11:07:03 PM
 While we all love our star drags, this is a fundamental weakness of the design. But not always an issue, depending on the type of fishing that you do.
My $0.02,

-J
I don't understand how this is an issue with star drags? Unless you move the lever of a lever drag out of freespool very deliberately (not to common when a tuna starts to run) then you can shock the AR parts with the same load. If you have the Star Drag at 50% breaking strength of the line when you are in freespool then I can see it being an issue, I can also see the fish swimming away after the hook pulls out of its mouth.

If you start with the drag of a star drag backed off to where the fish will still be able to easily run when you put the reel in gear then I don't see the shock being much different than a lever drag, and you won't eat a pinion bearing when you do pour on the coal.

The Man

 A star drag is always on or off, which means quite an impact when you flip the eccentric, even if the initiall drag setting is low. A star drag setup is sort of like a not-very-bright car drive train design where you have to engage  the clutch before you shift from neutral to first gear, so there are all these issues to consider, like how to to get some sort of spline arrangement on the pinion  (that is not moving and locked by the drag)  to engage with a spinning spool.  

Star drags also have a multiplier effect on anything on the main gear (AKA handle) shaft, where the gear ratio essentially causes leverage against the drag and anti-reverse.  A 5:1 gear ratio means that compared to a proper lever lever drag design, you need five times as much clamping force for the same amount of drag five times as much pressure on your gears and anti reverse, etc.  

The properly designed lever drag will effectively apply the drag incrementally, no matter how fast you swing the lever.  And you don't have any issues with  trying to get the drive train to somehow engage with a spinning spool (except for a few unfortunate lever drag designs).

A properly designed lever drag that has the anti-reverse built in at the drag plate (and not something foolish less optimal like a clutch bearing on the handle shaft)  places zero load on the drive train when engaging the drag or when the drag is fully engaged. The entire drive train is always in gear, and you don't have to deal with the multiplier effect of the gears, as all the stopping is being done ahead of the gear ratio.

While we tend to think of lever drags as more complex and not as useful for casting, from a basic design perspective they can be a much simpler and more trouble free design and equally easy to cast.  It is just that lever drag designs have evolved from a trolling reel heritage, and we foolish consumers keep pushing for new and improved star drags, instead of better casting, simpler lever drags.

Good advice about backing off on a star drag a bit when practical.  It will definitely help.  


The Dude  :)

"Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man."


Title: Re: Adding Increased Drag to a Reel
Post by: oc1 on November 18, 2021, 04:20:00 AM
The modern roller clutch bearing that everybody loves to hate has a second function.  It provides outboard support for the gear sleeve taking much of the load off the gear post attachment to the bridge.  This reduces the power handle's ability to pull the gear out of alignment.  The manufacturers seem to want to use this to their advantage by making the attachment between post and bridge less robust when a roller bearing is used.  You can't trust a roller clutch bearing to not fail so reels with a roller bearing, and a dog, and a strong attachment of post to bridge may be the best approach.  
Title: Re: Adding Increased Drag to a Reel
Post by: jurelometer on November 18, 2021, 05:07:05 AM
Quote from: oc1 on November 18, 2021, 04:20:00 AM
The modern roller clutch bearing that everybody loves to hate has a second function.  It provides outboard support for the gear sleeve taking half of the load off the gear post attachment to the bridge.  This reduces the power handle's ability to pull the gear out of alignment.  The manufacturers seem to want to use this to their advantage by making the attachment between post and bridge less robust when a roller bearing is used.  You can't trust a roller clutch bearing to not fail so reels with both roller bearing and dog may be the best alternative.  

Agree but sort of disagree...

Roller clutch "bearings" are not really bearings at all and are not  designed to handle radial load.  Also, with the type of clutches used in most fishing reel main gear (handle) shafts, the outer (not really a) "race" needs to be able to freely move in order for all the rollers to lock up, so the last thing you want is to be pushing the shaft against one side of the clutch "bearing".  A proper implementation of a roller clutch has a separate real bearing to manage the radial load.  While you can sort of get away with using the clutch  to act as a rudimentary low RPM bearing to prevent a large amount a gear misalignment in something like a reel, you are doing so at the expense of the clutch capacity and longevity.

IMHO, fishing reels are not the first place to look for examples of basic mechanical design best practices, and before the days of braid, this particular hack might have been almost OK.

As Steve pointed out, in this case we have a long shaft that acts as a spindle+axle for the larger of a pair of drive gears.  One side of the shaft is supported, but the other side floats and is eventually attached to a crank arm.  The classic star drag reel designs beef up the support by using a post inside a hollow shaft to provide some support for shaft alignement,  but this is not nearly as strong or as durable as simply following the standard engineering practice of using radial load bearing bearings on both the ends of the shaft.  This can be a simple/reliable/inexpensive solid bearing (AKA bushing) and the fit does not have to be very accurate.  We just don't want to pull the gears away from each other, especially with helical gears that will crawl away from each other until only a small part of one tooth is engaged.

Meanwhile there are plenty of reels that stick an extra ball bearing or two in the handle knob.  Sigh...

-J
Title: Re: Adding Increased Drag to a Reel
Post by: nelz on November 18, 2021, 05:25:23 AM
Quote from: jurelometer on November 18, 2021, 03:33:32 AMA properly designed lever drag that has the anti-reverse built in at the drag plate...

What reels have this design?
Title: Re: Adding Increased Drag to a Reel
Post by: Cuttyhunker on November 18, 2021, 02:34:06 PM
The star drag weakness of going into gear with a load on the reel is "fixed" by having the reel set to a light drag when in free spool mode. Throwing the lever to a light drag reduces the shock load on the components, then use the star to screw down to business mode.  Instead of stopping the weight in 3 inches, it may take a few feet, and a few seconds spreading the strain over time, now you're within the limits of the machines metallurgy. To steal a signature here, "Any machine is a smoke machine if you use it wrong enough".  The old man was never a fan of the "hole shot", going from idle to wide open in one fell swoop, zero strain to max strain in an instant, he taught me easy up easy down on the throttle.  Same for the star reels.  Took lots of tuna with the stars set light, when they hook up you're not going to stop them on a dime.
Title: Re: Adding Increased Drag to a Reel
Post by: foakes on November 18, 2021, 04:01:58 PM
Star Drag Penns are a relatively simple and straight-forward reel.  Tough, reliable, capable, fairly forgiving when used improperly...

However, many of these are used on boat, piers, and trolling lakes by folks (unlike the members on our site) who just don't know how the various functions are supposed to work and interact with each other.  They just want to catch a fish.

Nothing wrong with that.

But, those of us who have worked on party boat boat reels, and guest loaner reels — LB's, Senators, JM's, SM's, etc. — know how they are made and how they can be used effectively.

The seemingly simple (to us) refining of the drags for smoothness and capability, the shift lever (when to use it effectively without damage), the audible clicker, the proper adjustment of drag settings prior to strike, the adjustment of the drag when fighting a fish, how to not get a birdnest, how to cast or drop a line, how to thumb a spool, how to pump and crank the rod/reel partnership, evening the line lay, keeping pressure and no slack, and not tearing up the inside components — is not even something a lot of experienced anglers know well.

Squidders and Mariners are another variation — and a book could be written about each of these reels also.

The further we look into the details — why, how, and when the features of a reel were engineered — we will also understand just a little more about each reel.  And this "stacking" of our knowledge will keep increasing.

Best, Fred



Title: Re: Adding Increased Drag to a Reel
Post by: oldmanjoe on November 18, 2021, 04:24:19 PM
Quote from: Cuttyhunker on November 18, 2021, 02:34:06 PM
The star drag weakness of going into gear with a load on the reel is "fixed" by having the reel set to a light drag when in free spool mode. Throwing the lever to a light drag reduces the shock load on the components, then use the star to screw down to business mode.  Instead of stopping the weight in 3 inches, it may take a few feet, and a few seconds spreading the strain over time, now you're within the limits of the machines metallurgy. To steal a signature here, "Any machine is a smoke machine if you use it wrong enough".  The old man was never a fan of the "hole shot", going from idle to wide open in one fell swoop, zero strain to max strain in an instant, he taught me easy up easy down on the throttle.  Same for the star reels.  Took lots of tuna with the stars set light, when they hook up you're not going to stop them on a dime.
I agree with you , drag is not a set and forget setting .      Another point about dropping in gear is that you are getting the drags to a working temperature / sneak preview that the drags  are ready for a run .........  
       
      I was ready to hit post and Fred`s post came up .        As a drag racer it`s not just the engine , clutch  , transmission  rear end , chassis set up,  ect ,  ect
Title: Re: Adding Increased Drag to a Reel
Post by: jurelometer on November 18, 2021, 09:28:53 PM
Quote from: nelz on November 18, 2021, 05:25:23 AM
Quote from: jurelometer on November 18, 2021, 03:33:32 AMA properly designed lever drag that has the anti-reverse built in at the drag plate...

What reels have this design?

Avets, the TLD 20/30 two speeds, some (all?) Penn Internationals are the ones that spring to mind. I am sure that there are plenty of others.  In the basic design, the drag plate,  ratchet, and pinion are connected, and the spool is moved toward the drag plate to exit freespool or apply more drag clamping force.  Reel designs that want a semi-sealed chamber around the drag have  a bit of an issue about what to do about the dog, which has to be anchored to the frame or side plate.  Penn goes through some gymnastics to have the drag plate on the spool shaft on splines, and the and dog system works off the same shaft on the other side of the reel.  Or something like that (International  experts feel free to correct me).  The TLD two speeds use the pinion for a ratchet, which might make a gear maker shudder a bit, but simplifies the design further.   The Avets use the backward rotation of the  main gear to mover a lever  that flips the dog  toward the drag plate pinion combo.  All of these variants take the load off the drive train whenever you are not actively winding.

From a  design perspective, there is more room to put the dog and ratchet on the main gear,  and less expense/risk  to copy these well established designs.  You give up the benefit of eliminating stress on the gears under load, and the multiplier effect on the dog, but you maintain the benefit of losing the multiplier effect on the drag.  And you can also stick an AR bearing on the main (handle) shaft, which is an inexpensive but very unfortunate popular feature.

-J
Title: Re: Adding Increased Drag to a Reel
Post by: Ron Jones on November 18, 2021, 09:35:41 PM
J,
So you're saying that if a lever and a star have the same spool, gear ratio and handle; it will take less force to turn the handle of the lever under load because the anti reverse system system acts on the gear instead of the shaft mounted ratchet?

I'm not certain what you are trying to get across, but what I just described is not true.

The Man
Title: Re: Adding Increased Drag to a Reel
Post by: Dominick on November 18, 2021, 09:43:23 PM
There is no bigger thrill in fishing than dropping the reel in gear when a large rooster fish is taking line.  I do it with all my fishing in Mexico, from tuna to dorado.  I like it and I know how to fix the reel if it goes down.  Dominick
Title: Re: Adding Increased Drag to a Reel
Post by: jurelometer on November 18, 2021, 10:55:24 PM
Somehow I always end up being the contrarian in these debates  :)

Quote from: oldmanjoe on November 18, 2021, 04:24:19 PM
Quote from: Cuttyhunker on November 18, 2021, 02:34:06 PM
The star drag weakness of going into gear with a load on the reel is "fixed" by having the reel set to a light drag when in free spool mode. Throwing the lever to a light drag reduces the shock load on the components, then use the star to screw down to business mode.  Instead of stopping the weight in 3 inches, it may take a few feet, and a few seconds spreading the strain over time, now you're within the limits of the machines metallurgy. To steal a signature here, "Any machine is a smoke machine if you use it wrong enough".  The old man was never a fan of the "hole shot", going from idle to wide open in one fell swoop, zero strain to max strain in an instant, he taught me easy up easy down on the throttle.  Same for the star reels.  Took lots of tuna with the stars set light, when they hook up you're not going to stop them on a dime.
I agree with you , drag is not a set and forget setting .      Another point about dropping in gear is that you are getting the drags to a working temperature / sneak preview that the drags  are ready for a run .........  
       
      I was ready to hit post and Fred`s post came up .        As a drag racer it`s not just the engine , clutch  , transmission  rear end , chassis set up,  ect ,  ect

I think of this debate the other way around.  There  is an advantage to a star drag compared to how lever drags are currently designed:  with a star drag, you can snap from freespool to full drag instantly with a spring loaded lever.  I prefer a star drag for vertical  jigging, because when I get a bump or sudden slack on the drop, I can  get into gear and winding faster than on a lever drag reel.  There are plenty of star drag reel systems that will hold up to this type of use well enough, but this can be the first part of the system to eventually fail for some types of fishing.  Seen plenty of examples in Penn star drags in Baja.

The methods that you all have been suggesting are workarounds to minimize a weakness inherent  in star drags.  Lever drags do not have this weakness.  The  workaround is not always completely effective.  If you have ever dropped a live bait over the rail only to have a tuna rocket through, you know that you have to give it a bit of a run before flipping the lever and setting the hook, and that full drag is probably not advisable at this moment anyways.  By now ,  the spool is spinning crazy fast and the pinion is not turning, a lighter drag helps, but it is still rough on that junction where the pinion is suddenly snapped into the spindle.


Another case is working jigs near the bottom.   Although  the break off might not happen immediately, whether you land that big yellowtail or snapper is often determined in the first second or two.   You can usually get a few winds or more  while the fish is still in attack mode and not run-away  mode.   I don't  want to spend that vital time tightening  the drag, or working with less than max drag. 

I will entirely agree that star drags can be plenty capable, especially  in the hands of someone who understands the weaknesses of the design and can work around them.  But a better design can be more capable, more durable, and needs less expertise to operate.

Quote from: foakes on November 18, 2021, 04:01:58 PM
[snip...]
The further we look into the details — why, how, and when the features of a reel were engineered — we will also understand just a little more about each reel.  And this "stacking" of our knowledge will keep increasing.

"Why how and when" is a very astute observation.  A lot of what goes into a design for these type of products has less to do about meeting functional goals than  it does about meeting customer preferences, supplier costs, manufacturing limitations at the the time of the initial design, and so on.   

As someone who spent too much of my life designing and prototyping, I have a healthy respect for how hard it is to come up with a design of something even as simple as a fishing reel  that is simple, easy to operate, durable and high performance.  It takes time, training and talent and a bit of magic/inspiration from out of the ether. The best design can be  fundamentally different than what is expected, and then you have a marketing problem.

FWIW,  when analyzing someone else's design and running across something curious, I have found that there are plenty of occasions where there is a actually a valid reason that I had failed to consider.  But more often than not, it is a flaw. Since flaws are not usually intentional, the designer had a blind spot, miscalculation, or misunderstood how the product might be used now or in the future.   And it is easier to find flaws in someone else's work than your own.  I have found it to be counterproductive to give the designer too much benefit of the doubt, and to be too defensive when my own designs are scrutinized.  YMMV

-J
Title: Re: Adding Increased Drag to a Reel
Post by: jurelometer on November 18, 2021, 11:17:47 PM
Quote from: Ron Jones on November 18, 2021, 09:35:41 PM
J,
So you're saying that if a lever and a star have the same spool, gear ratio and handle; it will take less force to turn the handle of the lever under load because the anti reverse system system acts on the gear instead of the shaft mounted ratchet?

I'm not certain what you are trying to get across, but what I just described is not true.

The Man

Hey Ron,

Sorry if I was not clear.  I think you might be  mixing up the freespool  lever, the handle arm functioning as a lever, and the gears acting as the rotational equivalent of a lever.  Probably my fault for trying to write too compactly.

The gear ratio provides leverage.  Anything on the wrong side of that leverage has to use additional force to counter the  rotational load.  So the parts of your system that are used to stop or slow rotational movement will be more effective when implemented before the leverage is applied.   On a reel, this will be on the pinion side.   This is possible to do with a lever drag,  and impossible to do with a star drag.  Simple as that. 

-J
Title: Re: Adding Increased Drag to a Reel
Post by: Ron Jones on November 18, 2021, 11:36:00 PM
I spend about 1/3 of my time designing software and automated testing. Your statement about a marketing problem is perhaps your most valid to date.

The Man
Title: Re: Adding Increased Drag to a Reel
Post by: nelz on November 19, 2021, 01:52:57 AM
If I understand this correctly, the higher the gear ratio, the tighter your have to turn the drag star to achive a given drag pressure?

This would, however, be compensated for by the higher ratio reel having a bigger diameter main gear, the bigger gear allowing for larger drag disks, thus achieving greater drag in return.

Of course the lower ratio reel will have a larger pinion in relation to the size of the main, resulting in a more robust gear set. It will also be easier to crank. Just my $.02  ;D
Title: Re: Adding Increased Drag to a Reel
Post by: jurelometer on November 19, 2021, 04:08:34 AM
Quote from: nelz on November 19, 2021, 01:52:57 AM
If I understand this correctly, the higher the gear ratio, the tighter your have to turn the drag star to achive a given drag pressure?
Yes if you substitute the word "pressure" with "resistance".  Which I think is what you meant.

Quote
This would, however, be compensated for by the higher ratio reel having a bigger diameter main gear, the bigger gear allowing for larger drag disks, thus achieving greater drag in return.

I don't believe so.  This is a common misconception.  Sliding friction is not affected by surface area.  In layman's terms, the load is simply spread out over a larger area, so the amount of friction per square inch just decreases, but the total friction is unchanged.  Sliding Friction is a function of clamping force multiplied by the coefficient of friction (the slipperiness of the two surfaces).     

But one caveat on size:  once the drag starts slipping, how much braking work that can be done per revolution is a function of distance traveled per revolution, which is a function of the collective diameters from the inside to the outside of the disk.  Strangely enough, if you cut the center out of a disk, turning it into a ring, more braking work will be done per revolution, because the average distance traveled per revolution of the braking surfaces will now be longer.  That is why  the disc pads on a car  brakes are relatively small, and when they want more braking capability they increase the rotor diameter they don't make the pads bigger.

Putting these two concepts together. the pinion has more room for a larger diameter disk, which  will be braking 360 degrees of rotation per spool revolution , vs 72 degrees on the main gear side (ass7uming a 5:1 gear ratio), which makes it easier to accomplish a lot more braking work (motion to heat) per spool revolution with a lever drag than a star drag design.

Or something like that :)

Quote
Of course the lower ratio reel will have a larger pinion in relation to the size of the main, resulting in a more robust gear set. It will also be easier to crank. Just my $.02  ;D

Sort of agree.  The robustness of the gear set will primarily be a function of how well the gears stay aligned. Deeper teeth can help, but are a poor substitute for maintaining  proper alignment.   Big won't save you if  once the tip of the tooth is engaged.  The curved tooth edge is a very specific shape, designed to roll across each other limiting changes in speed (and friction) as the load rolls across the tooth and shifts from one tooth to the next.  But this only works if things are kept reasonably well aligned.

Agree that if you keep the center distance between the gears unchanged, a lower gear ratio means a larger pinion. And a larger pinion might give you room to make the teeth on both gears larger if you originally had did not have enough pinion diameter to make the  teeth the size that you wanted.   But this would be an unusual design process.  The gear design process that I am familiar with is that you decide the tooth size, count, and gear ratio needed for the desired load capacity and ratio, and calculate the center distance based on those numbers. It doesn't take much of a change in center distance to accommodate a big jump in tooth depth.

Penn kind of cheated on the 500 to 505 design, where  they tried  to squeeze a higher gear ratio into an existing round reel.  The proper solution would be to make the main gear larger and move it farther from the same pinion, but this would have required more new parts and more redesign.  Otherwise, very limited room to move the centers farther apart. They also changed the pitch circle ratio by making the pinion diameter smaller (and the main gear larger) but no longer had enough meat on the pinion to cut full sized teeth.  These smaller teeth would have been strong enough if the gear sleeve/post design was not so flexy.   

Anyways, Penn pretty much got away with the 505 design kludge until knuckleheads like me started loaded it up with 40 lb mono and cranking down the drag to cast irons at yellowtail.    So I am not sure that I would categorize this as design flaw vs. a calculated risk.

-J
Title: Re: Adding Increased Drag to a Reel
Post by: nelz on November 19, 2021, 06:18:16 AM
Are you telling me a big drag disk will not produce more resistance than a tiny one? Under equal pressure that is.
Title: Re: Adding Increased Drag to a Reel
Post by: Ron Jones on November 19, 2021, 06:46:05 AM
Quote from: nelz on November 19, 2021, 06:18:16 AM
Are you telling me a big drag disk will not produce more resistance than a tiny one? Under equal pressure that is.
There is a thread on here from years ago that lasted lots and lots of pages where we tried to figure this out. I posted links to engineering texts and peer reviewed journals and there was still resistance. J is absolutely correct. If we were talking about linear resistance size doesn't matter, but when it turns into a disk everything changes, and stays the same at the same time.

Title: Re: Adding Increased Drag to a Reel
Post by: nelz on November 19, 2021, 06:55:49 AM
and I thought quantum entanglement sounded bogus...  ::)
Title: Re: Adding Increased Drag to a Reel
Post by: jurelometer on November 20, 2021, 12:59:38 AM
Thought that  I should add that lever drags get harder to pull off the smaller the reel gets.  And that star drags can compensate for some of the drag inefficiency by stacking multiple drag surfaces.

-J
Title: Re: Adding Increased Drag to a Reel
Post by: Brewcrafter on November 20, 2021, 03:54:14 AM
Quote from: Dominick on November 18, 2021, 09:43:23 PM
There is no bigger thrill in fishing than dropping the reel in gear when a large rooster fish is taking line.  I do it with all my fishing in Mexico, from tuna to dorado.  I like it and I know how to fix the reel if it goes down.  Dominick
I will toss my logs onto the fire here.  Actually everyone has valid points.  But one that I want to throw out there for folks like Dominick and myself that still fish what my friends refer to as "barbaric ancient gear"  (old one speed star drags) I will say, that on all of my hotrodded 113H that I have taken pains to contour the both the engagement surface of the pinion as well as the lug on the spool to get smooth, solid engagement as opposed to two engagement surfaces slamming into each other under load.  And yes, there is not a whole lot of material on the engagement side of the pinion to get happy with a dremel... - john