I am cobbling a Penn 500 with a purple TIB frame and once completed the drag goes from ZERO to 100% - cannot pull line from the reel in half of a turn of the star. And I'm using the fine thread Gear Sleeve.
(https://alantani.com/gallery/32/7588_27_06_20_5_40_00_32945925.jpeg)
(https://alantani.com/gallery/32/7588_27_06_20_5_39_58_329441470.jpeg)
I loaded up the insides with Pro Challenger's SS Gear set: including SS Main Gear, Pinion Gear, Fine Thread Sleeve, Yoke - I'm good to go.
(https://alantani.com/gallery/32/7588_27_06_20_5_40_04_32946796.jpeg)
(https://alantani.com/gallery/32/7588_27_06_20_5_40_05_329441247.jpeg)
(https://alantani.com/gallery/32/7588_27_06_20_5_40_09_32948795.jpeg)
For the CF and SS washers, here is the order:
Delrin, Main Gear, CF, Keyed Washer, CF, Eared Washer, CF, Keyed, CF, Eared, CF, Keyed, Large Belleville Washer.
(https://alantani.com/gallery/32/7588_27_06_20_5_40_09_32948791.jpeg)
Should be set, but WHY do I only have a half of a turn on the Star Wheel BEFORE the spool is locked down tight?????
DO I NEED a wavy washer between the Belleville washer and the spacing sleeve????????
HELP!!!!! OR I'll be sending the REEL headache to someone on this site for assistance.
THANK YOU all,
Wayne
First, Wayne --
Remove the spacer -- and make sure you have star travel up and down on the sleeve.
If that is OK -- with the HD Belville on the top of the stack -- the spacer will need to be shorter to accomplish more adjustment rotations of the star. It can be replaced with another -- or lightly ground down just a few mills on a stationary belt sander. A file will also work. The rough edges also need to be dressed smooth.
This should do it.
The Belville gives the reel drag stack a more even drag -- with the increased drag numbers. However, in a pinch, a wavy washer can be substituted for the Belville.
But to make it right -- just address the spacer by making it a little shorter.
Best,
Fred
Let me take a look at it. I'll be home late Monday afternoon, the gear may not be seated all the way down. Dominick
Back on the REEL bench this morning,
Checked the star wheel on the sleeve, star travels all the way along the threads, NO issue here.
Also, the gear is tight on the Delrin, which is tight against the ratchet. See.
(https://alantani.com/gallery/32/7588_28_06_20_6_45_59_3295032.jpeg)
Put the 500 back together, and there is space, maybe 1+mm between the spacer when the star is spun all the way against the handle. So we have a gap.
(https://alantani.com/gallery/32/7588_28_06_20_6_46_08_329511120.jpeg)
NOW WHAT??? Same 100% drag with a half-turn of the star wheel.
This only adds to my point, that I'd RATHER be FISH'n ... Than Fix'n!!!! Exactly.
Dominick, I'll be over on Monday night, See you then,
Wayne
Wayne, try a 8-60 spring washer between the spacer & the star. You might have to shorten the spacer a little. Rudy
Rowdy,
Thanks for the suggestion, I'll call MO at Mystic tomorrow and have one shipped out.
I'll keep trying & working on the REEL project.
Wayne
Dominick said he will be home monday and he probably has some 8-60 wavy washers. Don't you have any Penn reels about that size that you may be able to borrow a spring washer from? It's a very popular size in the jigmaster & longbeach sized reels.
I'd say that big bellville is the problem. In a system the size of the Jiggy, it's not compressing easily enough, just pushing in on the drags. Also...the 5-stack kit is famous for taking away some of the "travel" in the system. A smaller spring washer will probably work much better. 8)
Another way is to remove the top thin keyed washer & replace it with an original thicker keyed washer. Then leave out the belleville washer & put a 8-60 wavy washer on the top of the drag stack & if you have room for one more between the spacer & star put one there too. Like Mo said that large belleville washer is to stiff when you increase your drag surface.
Rowdy and MOmeister!!!!
You're thinking guys!!!!
I DO have 4 Surfmaster 100's to pull a 8-60 Tension Spring from and try it out.
This IS EXACTLY why I don't like working on reels, I'm not a mechanic, I'm a fisherman!!!!!
Let's see how it goes, and MO I need to send YOU a reel to work on!!!!!
Enjoy your Sunday.
Wayne
I've had that same problem on Jiggys when using that belleville. Agree with Fred, Mo and Rudy; try one or two wavy washers insteada that belleville. Probably have 1 or 2-wavy's if you need 'em. Also, a delrin on top of the last keyed washer increases the smoothness and may add a bit to the adjustability. I know I have extras of those.
I bet G is right...that belleville looks thick enough that you can get 2 #8-60s to sub. And Rudy is correct also...put one below the spacer and one on the outside above it. The reason for this is because the side plate is "terraced" to perfectly fit the various washers in the stack. Placing those 2 spring washers inside the plate will most times result in plate rubbing when backed completely off. Good luck Wayne...I think you're close to nipping this one in the bud. 8)
Deleted as I totally failed that one.
I must have been up late. ::)
I meant this ring on the plate, not the spacer. Looking more closely at the pics, that wouldn't be it either with the quite of bit of space it looks like is there.
Wayne, I suspect your issue is within your reach.
Can you carefully remove drag stack and post a picture and also a picture of the inside of main gear without the drags installed.
Ted
Does the handle turn smoothly, no resistance?
Dr. MaxedOUT?? Dr. MaxedOUT!!!
"I'm not a Doctor, BUTT I'll take a look!!!!" ;D
Ted,
here is the drag stack sequence from the left - Delrin washer, main gear, CF to the last metal keyed washer ontop to the most right
(https://alantani.com/gallery/32/7588_28_06_20_4_09_40_32952974.jpeg)
Here are a few photos of the ProChallanger main gear, tell me IF this is what you are looking to view???
(https://alantani.com/gallery/32/7588_28_06_20_4_11_46_32955536.jpeg)
(https://alantani.com/gallery/32/7588_28_06_20_4_11_07_329541443.jpeg)
(https://alantani.com/gallery/32/7588_28_06_20_4_13_40_32956540.jpeg)
(https://alantani.com/gallery/32/7588_28_06_20_4_10_42_329532145.jpeg)
Give me a GREEN LIGHT when I can button this up and I'll include the wavy 8-60 place of the HD Belleville washer.
TANKS.
Wayne
Quote from: nelz on June 28, 2020, 11:19:29 PM
Does the handle turn smoothly, with no resistance?
nelz,
YES, the handle turns effortlessly, until I spin the star drag less than a half of a turn, then it hits the wall.
Wayne
Quote from: El Pescador on June 28, 2020, 11:21:07 PMQuote from: nelz on June 28, 2020, 11:19:29 PMDoes the handle turn smoothly, with no resistance?
YES, the handle turns effortlessly, until I spin the star drag less than a half of a turn, then it hits the wall.
Spin to tighten or loosen? What hits the wall, star?
Spin the tighten. Once the drag started to contact, it become increasingly harder to turn the handle, until after a half a turn when you first feel drag pressure, you cannot turn the handle any more,
May I say it.... It is MAXED OUT!!!! or did Ted trademark that name!!!!! ::)
Wayne
Quote from: El Pescador on June 28, 2020, 11:45:00 PMSpin the tighten. Once the drag started to contact, it become increasingly harder to turn the handle, until after a half a turn when you first feel drag pressure, you cannot turn the handle any more
Sounds like the star is hitting the sideplate! Slightly longer spacing sleeve fixes that.
Also adding spring washers to raise the sleeve up a bit would work (as long as the stack doesn't start hitting the plate as a result, which would cause a new problem).
Are you using the stock spacing sleeve? #9-60
No,
I'm using a 12.50mm spacing sleeve from ProChallanger
https://www.prochallenger.com/product/spacing-sleeve/14?cs=true
I have 11.50mm stock spacing sleeve from Penn I can use if needed.
Wayne
Quote from: El Pescador on June 29, 2020, 12:23:08 AMI'm using a 12.50mm spacing sleeve from ProChallanger I have 11.50mm stock spacing sleeve from Penn I can use if needed.
Actually, the longer one is better if the star's rubbing the sideplate.
Nelz,
When the star is buttoned-down,
I still have 2+mm of gap/space between the inside of the star and the metal space ring of the right side plate.
Still working on it.
Wayne
Might try a smaller O.D. washer under the main gear,one that doesn't stick out past the teeth on the gear sleeve. Don't know if that is the problem but I'd imagine the stock smaller ones are there for a reason
Wayne,
I'll take a look is you want to meet up.
Quote from: El Pescador on June 29, 2020, 01:32:15 AMNelz,
When the star is buttoned-down, I still have 2+mm of gap/space between the inside of the star and the metal space ring of the right side plate.
Still working on it.
Wayne
Okie-dokie I tried. Let's see what they find in person, keep us posted.
Wayne, I still think reply #8 will solve your problem. That's the setup that I used in a couple of 112H's which uses the same drag setup. That should give you about one full turn to full lockdown.
Is the sleeve hitting the side plate? I've found that the tolerance stack up can cause the sleeve to bind with the side plate when the drags are tightened because the sleeve does not spin when the drags are tight.
Quote from: RowdyW on June 29, 2020, 05:39:37 AM
Wayne, I still think reply #8 will solve your problem. That's the setup that I used in a couple of 112H's which uses the same drag setup. That should give you about one full turn to full lockdown.
Rowdy!!!!
YOU have the correct fix to my problem!!!!
I'm up early, back in the garage to put the 500 back together, with the ONLY change being pulling the HD Belleville washer and install, at Rowdy's recommendation, the 8-60 wavy tension washer. That is the only change I made, and after assemblage, I have space between the reel handle and the top of the spacer, meaning, I have room to add another Delrin between the top of the CF/washer stack & before the spacing tube. GFish is mailing me a Delrin for just this purpose.
Now, drum roll, please....... Yes, I have 1 & 1/2 turn of the handle, almost 1 3/4's turn from just staring the drag pressure to full lockdown!!!!!!!
Rowdy, please see Alan for your award!!!!
TANK you all for your help, input, and assistance in my fix to my new cobbled Penn 500.
Isn't time to get out and go fishing?????
July 13, Monday, Morro Bay with the crew.
THANK YOU again Rowdy for your SPOT ON fix recommendation.
IT's Monday, get to work.
Wayne
Wayne, I knew you could do it !
I asked you to take it apart to take pics, but in reality it was just a ruse meant to force you into trying Rudy's suggestion ;D ;D
A good night's sleep is all it took !
Ted
Wayne, did you figure out why the handle got harder to turn when you increased the drag? That one still puzzles me.
Quote from: Maxed Out on June 29, 2020, 04:53:30 PM
Wayne, I knew you could do it !
but in reality, it was just a ruse meant to force you into trying Rudy's suggestion ;D ;D
A good night's sleep is all it took !
Ted
TED!!!! YOU DOG!!!!
I just got played by one of the best!!!!
I enjoy DRY SHAVING my buddies, BUTT when it just happened to me, man, it stings a lot!!!!
Now that we have all enjoyed a big laugh with my good nature,
I'm still on the process first started by Rowdy - meaning I'll take the 500 apart AGAIN, and install the original thick metal washer for the top thin SS metal washer, compare and contrast this drag stack from what I have now,
then, take it apart AGAIN, install a 8-60 wavy washer between the spacer and the star, and again, compare and contrast how that drag works and life goes on.
Good news, the speed it takes me to put back a 500 - the time is getting less and less and my blood pressure stays in normal range!!!!
TED ;D I OWE YOU ONE!!!!! Watch your step :-*
Wayne
Quote from: El Pescador on June 29, 2020, 05:22:38 PM
Good news, the speed it takes me to put back a 500 - the time is getting less and less and my blood pressure stays in normal range!!!!
This is how ya get good at working on reels. Tackling a drag stack problem requires you to tear it down over and over. Usually after solving a drag stack problem...you are an expert at putting the dog spring back in place! ;D
MO,
Yes, the reassembling & dog springs, I'm on it.
BUTT the only tackling I'm wanting to do is when I see TED next!!! and I MEAN NEXT.... ;D
Wayne
Wayne, the reason for replacing the top thin washer with a thicker one is for a stiffer top washer because the small diameter 8-60 puts most of the pressure on the inside diameter of the washer and the thin one would flex to much. The thicker washer spreads out the load more equally. That's my reasoning and it works. ;) What award ?????
Lol, who says you can't teach an old dog new tricks
Okay Wayne O, we want to see pics, of all these fish, your going to catch, dont forget to leave some for us, cheers Don.
Thanks,
Wayne, Fred, Dominic, Mo, Nelz, Ted, Rowdy, and anyone else i may have forgot.
i was reading this thread, and was inspired to go back and give the penn VI 2500 ONE more shot.
i had disassembled and reassembled at least 5 times, and was ready to bag it up and send to Fred or Keith.
i'm no spinning reel guy, and this is the first one i've tried to fix. well, it is back together and working!
this series of reel is well sealed, but if it washes around in the surf, not impenetrable, as the gearcase was full of saltwater and sand.
does appear to be well made, and light in weight. looking forward to fishing it .
S
Way to go Vilters!
Good job, Steve --
Spinners are not that tough to figure out or work on -- they just generally have more small parts that need to work together.
When you get a little more confidence working on these -- you will also begin to understand the basic concepts of an open faced spinning reel.
There are (5) major categories for most spinning reels -- and here are the technical classifications:
-- Cheap toss-aways -- these are the LFS models (Land Fill Specials)
-- "Getting by" engineering and components -- but very attractive & shiny designs
-- Superior engineering and material selections, simple, and bullet-proof -- However, old school Butt-Ugly
-- Superior over-engineered, combo of old school and new school -- many seemingly extra parts that get finicky
-- Penn, DQ, Mitchell, ABU/Zebco Cardinals
And they all catch fish -- some one time, others more, some for multiple decades and generations.
There are plenty of good spinners out there -- many of the best are a few decades old -- but no one needs to break the bank to buy a solid, decent spinning reel.
The main thing is to learn how to work on and keep your reels in tip-top condition. Sounds like you have this worked out, Steve!
Best,
Fred
Well, the saga continues,
AT.com Member of good standing - Gfish - sent me 2 Delrin washers to keep the fix going on my Tib'd 500.
(https://alantani.com/gallery/32/7588_08_07_20_7_21_22_32996530.jpeg)
Here is what I did. I removed the last keyed SS washer, the one that comes with Bryan's 5+1 washer stack, and replaced it with the original issue thicker metal keyed washer,
then the Delrin washer from Gfish,
then the Rowdy-recommended 8-60 wavey washer, spacing sleeve, star, handle.
NOW what I have is a full ONE and 1/2 turn of the handle with SMOOTHNESS I've never seen with this reel. With the Delrin washer, the smoothness is REELY felt at the last 1/4 turn before MAXED OUT lockdown - no more line released.
I think we're done here boyz.
I'm starting to prep for the Morro Bay trip for July 13, return on Tuesday, leave on Wednesday for my yearly fishing / camping / 4X4 5-day trip with Buddy Boy Jerry. Photos when I return.
TANKS ALL for the help and assistance. STILL NOT going in the reel repair business, I'll leave that to those that enjoy it far more than I do.
Keep in mind, and I'll say it to the bitter end.... I'd RATHER be FISH'n ... than Fix'n!!! and you can quote me on that.
Wayne
Don't sell yourself short Wayne. You took that reel apart so many times, it's no surprise you threw up the white flag. The end result is you may not be a reel mechanic, but you will surely enjoy fishing with THIS REEL, the one built with blood, sweat, and shear determination !!..... I gave up and sent mine to Sal, and of course he figured it out in a heartbeat. hashtag-not proud :(
lookout Morro Bay, here comes El Pescador !!
Good point.
Taking the same reel apart 5+ times to figure out an issue works for me oftentimes, but can make it a drag(pun intended). My obsession with getting it right overcomes the irritation and desire to give-up. I call it my "brute force and ignorance" way to succeed.
Taking time away from fun and(or) important stuff to solve a reel problem has it's limits, though. I still have reels where I've solved problems, but in the future will be going back in to see if I can perfect something I'm not statisfied with.
Good thing the Jiggys are easier to work on with the quick-take-apart feature and the attached-to-the-bridge dog(s).
I don't mind taking a reel apart several times to get it right, it's enjoyable except for the grease on my skin (hate working with gloves). It does concern me though, that eventually the threads on a screw-hole will eventually get stripped.
Quote from: El Pescador on July 08, 2020, 02:34:23 PM
Well, the saga continues,
AT.com Member of good standing - Gfish - sent me 2 Delrin washers to keep the fix going on my Tib'd 500.
(https://alantani.com/gallery/32/7588_08_07_20_7_21_22_32996530.jpeg)
Here is what I did. I removed the last keyed SS washer, the one that comes with Bryan's 5+1 washer stack, and replaced it with the original issue thicker metal keyed washer,
then the Delrin washer from Gfish,
then the Rowdy-recommended 8-60 wavey washer, spacing sleeve, star, handle.
NOW what I have is a full ONE and 1/2 turn of the handle with SMOOTHNESS I've never seen with this reel. With the Delrin washer, the smoothness is REELY felt at the last 1/4 turn before MAXED OUT lockdown - no more line released.
I think we're done here boyz.
I'm starting to prep for the Morro Bay trip for July 13, return on Tuesday, leave on Wednesday for my yearly fishing / camping / 4X4 5-day trip with Buddy Boy Jerry. Photos when I return.
TANKS ALL for the help and assistance. STILL NOT going in the reel repair business, I'll leave that to those that enjoy it far more than I do.
Keep in mind, and I'll say it to the bitter end.... I'd RATHER be FISH'n ... than Fix'n!!! and you can quote me on that.
Wayne
Hello Wayne, I think you did really good and should be proud.
I remember a few years back you didn't know how to remove the handle, you came a long way.
You would never be in a jam, you already know the deal .
Good job buddy👍
Sal
Ay Wayne, you will get great personal satisfaction, when you catch a good fish with it, cheers Don.