Hi:
I have an 8000 Fierce 2 and a 309 level wind that I use boat fishing for cod. I've only ever used mono because, quite frankly, I couldn't justify the $20+ cost of braid (per reel) vs $5 worth of mono for the few times I get to go out. That ended today when I picked up two 150m rolls of 50# J-Braid x8 for $10 total. Just couldn't pass it up.
I started searching the forum to see what others experienced switching to braid and, to be honest, I'm more confused now than ever! Some say it's better than mono, some say it's not and some say it's better on the Fierce than the level wind.
Also, what's the best way to add it to my existing reels? They both have about 75 fathoms of 40# mono on them
"Some say it's better than mono, some say it's not and some say it's better on the Fierce than the level wind"
Yip that's because there is no simple answer to this and the choices are influenced by what you intend to do and catch or simple personal preferences as well.
If you plan to cast your reels, then braid is probably better on the spinning reel and mono on the conventional.
For cod fishing you'll like the braid, much thinner so you'll need less weight and very sensitive so you'll feel every little bite. 150 meters isn't much on the 309, both spools together might not fill it up. I use it for rockfish here to about 350 feet, couldn't imagine going back to mono.
Don't really use spinning reels so couldn't comment on that.
Normally I'm in the 20 - 40 fathoms range so the amount of braid on those reels should be enough for what I'd need.
How's the best way to set up my reels? Remove about 40 fathoms of the existing mono and just wind the braid on top? How much tension should I use?
a proper braid spool-up for either reel will cost more than $20, but you'd be good for decades of rare use (unless you encounter abrasion far up the line... or, user error!!!) it's actually more cost-effective than respooling mono every couple years
150m 50# seems too short & too light for your reels, but $10/2 is a great bargain to experiment & decide if the strength & sensitivity are worth the the extra hassles...
!!!zero stretch + thin diameter, means braid will slice you to the bone, where mono would barely break skin!!!
It needs to be wound on under tension, really tight. I wind the braid onto a big heavy penn senator first then put the reel i'm using on a rod and wind it on from the senator with the drag backed off so it's almost being lifted off the ground. I've never used mono for backing like that, I use either dacron or heavier braid for backing. The mono could work, I've never done it so I'm not sure.
Braid should last a very long time so it saves $ in the long run.
With braid you can do the job with a smaller reel. Putting braid on a 309 doesn't make much sense to me. Using braid, it would hold about 3/4 mile of 30#. If you beef the line strength up to 65 or 80#, then the reel becomes the weak link. If the spool is mostly backing then you are lugging the big 309 around when a #9 would do the same job.
-steve
I've found it best & I believe Alan recommends winding your braid on at the same level as your drag used while fishing. So based on the 1/3 of line rating rule using 30 lb. line wind your braid on at 10 lbs. Winding braid on under tension saves some problems such as the braid digging into itself with fish on. I believe braid wound under tension cast better, also when occasionally my thumb has a brain fart.. what ever birds nest is there "seems" to be noticeably less.
Braid & mono are two different things. Mono is more durable in the water when hooked up while on wrecks, rocks, logs etc. Mono in some form or another can be near invisible in the water. Mono is cheap to buy & replace.
Mono degrades quicker in the sun. In comparison mono takes up a tremendous amount of real estate on a reel. There are other cons to mono however the one that bugs me most & was the cause of a few lost fish is mono stretches. It has over the years got better. But still it doesnt take that long of a cast to get 5' & even 10' or more stretch out of mono when pulling.
Braid does well in the sun going years with out noticeable issue with better known brands. Braid doesnt have good abrasion resistance. However with fish pulling straight away braid going straight over the top of log,rock... abrasion resistance can be quite good. It's when fish turns & crosses right or left in front of you while the braid is making contact with wreck or rock that causes it to part almost immediately.
We can now when using braid pack on more line than could have ever been imagined not to long ago. Braid of the same test as mono will always, because of its smaller diameter hold in current better. Braid has little to no stretch.
Years back when first using braid I broke two St. Croix Musky rods. One casting... probably a bit more weight than I should've. The other setting a hook on a Flathead under 40 lbs. I was using straight braid no mono leader or top shot. Now even though the rods have become better at suffering abuse in the hands of a hillbilly like myself, I will not use braid depending on situation without at least a 4' leader. Mainly for abrasion resistance & also the helpful stretch / shock load strength it provides.
In general combining these two lines is widely accepted. Meaning filling reel with braid but leaving room for a topshot of what ever length mono you choose. This can be 25 - 100 yards if trolling & of course depending on size of reel.
If casting I like a length of mono as long or slightly longer than my longest cast. Seems to work very well. Allows me a lot of times to cut the cheaper mono when snagged & as stated prior by Philarmon, this can make braid cost effective long term. if max casting distance is wanted I shorten the length of mono drastically.
Some who fish straight down or close to bottom or any structure use straight braid because of its lack of stretch. Friend of mine says lack of stretch in this instance is more important to him than abrasion resistance. Any thing other than braided steel or wire would be cut any way.
As I get older I find unless given reason not to I lose track of time... I gotta hit the rack... Jeff
Thanks guys - really appreciate all your info and suggestions!
I still fish with mono a lot especially on 10' casting rods. I use braid backing on all of them with 100 yds of mono on top. I change mono often so it saves me a bunch of $ only having to change 100yds.
I don't use straight braid for anything really, always at least a rod length of mono or floro leader
Quote from: oc1 on July 27, 2020, 04:56:47 AM
With braid you can do the job with a smaller reel. Putting braid on a 309 doesn't make much sense to me. Using braid, it would hold about 3/4 mile of 30#. If you beef the line strength up to 65 or 80#, then the reel becomes the weak link. If the spool is mostly backing then you are lugging the big 309 around when a #9 would do the same job.
-steve
Do you think running some 50-80-# greenspot dacron would be a good choice for the 309, 209, and similar reels if dropping deep to prevent stretch?
https://www.cortlandline.com/collections/dacron/products/dacron-trolling-igfa-greenspot (https://www.cortlandline.com/collections/dacron/products/dacron-trolling-igfa-greenspot)
I've been thinking of trying some on one of my Penns or maybe an older direct drive Pflueger. This stuff definitely has the old-school look to it, which always helps :)
I back most of my Spectra filled reels with Dacron, some reels more than others.
Sure, Dacron makes good backing but is thicker that braid
For the fishing described, I like the dacron backing idea. Especially for the 309. You will put a LOT of 50# braid on a 309, way more than 40 fathoms worth, but as others have said it is the bees knees for bottom fishing. Maybe 1/3 of the spool dacron and then tie in the braid. That way, if you have to cut off 40 fathoms of line from a snag you still have plenty of braid to get to the bottom.
The Man
Quote from: Swami805 on July 27, 2020, 02:50:32 PM
Sure, Dacron makes good backing but is thicker that braid
A lot thicker. I have 200-900 yards of Spectra on top of the Dacron on most of my reels. Some reels only have a few yards of Dacron, some none depending on the reel sixe and use.
Quote from: Ron Jones on July 27, 2020, 04:07:01 PM
.... if you have to cut off 40 fathoms of line from a snag you still have plenty of braid to get to the bottom.
I tie a short section of lighter mono on the end of my Spectra so it breaks first, 50# mono on 60/65 pound Spectra for halibut. Spectra floats, it takes a long time to break down and is not cheep so I try to avoid leaving it in the water.
So what's the purpose of using Dacron as a backing? It seems to me like just more braid under the braid, guess I'm missing something... ??? ??? ???
dyneema is much thinner.
OP- I use 309 a lot for different things. Someone mentioned using a 9 instead; well, you have a 309 and not a 9, and a 9 isn't going to be fast or powerful pulling lead and fish up from 100 feet or more. The 309 has jigmaster size main gear and much larger spool diameter so even advertised abiut same retrieve ratio, is going to be a lot faster with a whole lot more drag than a 9. In many ways it's a perfect bottom reel for what you are doing- youa rent worried about blistering runs harming levelwind, and you can focus on cranking the fish not leveling line. What I would do is fill spool about 2/3 with mono, then double uni knot to your braid and see if that gets you close to full spool. If you want more, pull off the braid in the grass, 150yds is easy, add more mono, and rewind braid- attaching a weight of some sort to wind it on tightly, and the levelwind will also line lay to prevent dig-in. At the terminal end double uni onto 50 or 60 lb mono or fluoro shock leader for replaceable abrasion resistance. It will be less visible, and you will still minimize stretch and utilize braid sensitivity. Make sure your knots are tight and tapered to fit through level wind. This setup is how we rig Senators, maybe with different line weight, but same concept for bottom bouncing grouper and snapper in 100-150ft of water. We just don't need 500 yds of braid on there to go straight up and down 50 yards. It works very well, and we also use Penn 9500SS for jigging the same way, so you could set up the Fierce with some mono backing, whatever gets you to within 1/8" of spool lip with the braid on top, then ten feet of mono shock leader. I use this exactly for both jigging and surf fishing with lighter gear- I can throw long but 150 yds is usually plenty for casting on 9-10 rod and certainly for up-and-down boat jigging. This is all my own opinion and experience, but I'm trying to get you going with the reels and line you have in hand since you don't get out all too often and maybe spending more dough isn't a good investment. As others stated- that braid will last you some years, I keep reels mainly out of light, but you are good for a long while of codfishing with a change of the short tops shot as needed.
add: double the braid with surgeon loop before uni.
Quote from: nelz on July 28, 2020, 03:58:37 PM
So what's the purpose of using Dacron as a backing? It seems to me like just more braid under the braid, guess I'm missing something... ??? ??? ???
Yeah. Mono needs a dacron backing because it stretches so much and if wound tight would warp the spool. Dacron backing under braid is just to take up space because the reel is larger than it needs to be.
-steve
Quote from: oc1 on July 28, 2020, 07:05:21 PMYeah. Mono needs a dacron backing because it stretches so much and if wound tight would warp the spool. Dacron backing under braid is just to take up space because the reel is larger than it needs to be.
Yeah, I meant using dacron under the braid. But I'd rather put mono under the braid, helps keep a tight grip on the spool in addition to filling up space.
Dacron grips too and does not compress.
QuoteQuote from: nelz on July 28, 2020, 03:58:37 PM
So what's the purpose of using Dacron as a backing? It seems to me like just more braid under the braid, guess I'm missing something... ??? ??? ???
And the truth is, plain "old school" Dacron is usually a lot cheaper than newer "Spectra/Dyneema" type braids. So as a backing it is effective and cost efficient. And honestly as a fishing line it has it's place - my shallow water bottom fishing/halibut rigs have Izorline Green on them, partially because I'm old school but then if I am putting 5 miles of modern line on my Long Beach 68 that also doesn't make sense...-john
Using straight dacron is a real pleasure if the situation allows. It has no abrasion resistance, but no stretch and the best "hand" of all fishing lines. Hand is the feel of it as it runs through your hand. It has the sensitivity of spectra, but the large diameter will take up a lot of space and catch the current if dropping.
-steve
Steve summed up what I was trying to say better than I could ever say it... - john
Quote from: thorhammer on July 28, 2020, 04:31:32 PM
dyneema is much thinner.
OP- I use 309 a lot for different things. Someone mentioned using a 9 instead; well, you have a 309 and not a 9, and a 9 isn't going to be fast or powerful pulling lead and fish up from 100 feet or more. The 309 has jigmaster size main gear and much larger spool diameter so even advertised abiut same retrieve ratio, is going to be a lot faster with a whole lot more drag than a 9. In many ways it's a perfect bottom reel for what you are doing- youa rent worried about blistering runs harming levelwind, and you can focus on cranking the fish not leveling line. What I would do is fill spool about 2/3 with mono, then double uni knot to your braid and see if that gets you close to full spool. If you want more, pull off the braid in the grass, 150yds is easy, add more mono, and rewind braid- attaching a weight of some sort to wind it on tightly, and the levelwind will also line lay to prevent dig-in. At the terminal end double uni onto 50 or 60 lb mono or fluoro shock leader for replaceable abrasion resistance. It will be less visible, and you will still minimize stretch and utilize braid sensitivity. Make sure your knots are tight and tapered to fit through level wind. This setup is how we rig Senators, maybe with different line weight, but same concept for bottom bouncing grouper and snapper in 100-150ft of water. We just don't need 500 yds of braid on there to go straight up and down 50 yards. It works very well, and we also use Penn 9500SS for jigging the same way, so you could set up the Fierce with some mono backing, whatever gets you to within 1/8" of spool lip with the braid on top, then ten feet of mono shock leader. I use this exactly for both jigging and surf fishing with lighter gear- I can throw long but 150 yds is usually plenty for casting on 9-10 rod and certainly for up-and-down boat jigging. This is all my own opinion and experience, but I'm trying to get you going with the reels and line you have in hand since you don't get out all too often and maybe spending more dough isn't a good investment. As others stated- that braid will last you some years, I keep reels mainly out of light, but you are good for a long while of codfishing with a change of the short tops shot as needed.
Thanks Thorhammer - this is the info I was looking for!
I've never used braid before and wanted to give it a try for kicks but didn't want to spend a lot for what is basically an experiment.
Thanks to everyone else for their suggestions as well!
Lot of great info to chew on!
Pre Spectra I used Dacron on all of my bottom fishing reels and a few trolling reels due to low line stretch, Dacron does stretch more than Spectra but far less than mono. It was easy for me to switch to Spectra. Today all of my reels have Spectra, bottom fishing ana flylining reels with short topshots (10'-20') of fluro/mono and trolling reels with 200' of mono, the ones I use on downriggers have 20'-30' fluro topshots. My steelhead and kokanee reels have 10' fluro topshots on top of 20 or 30 pound Spectra, most of the rest of my reels have 60/65 pound Spectra and up to 200#..
The beauty of this site is you get glean from global experience- Steve is in Hi, Lee in PNW, I'm in NC, etc etc, and we all fish for different things in different ways, so what happens is you get a good look at different ways to skin a cat, and maybe you take away a bit of each to skin yours the best way for you. Dacron certainly has it's applications and I use it for various things where it works best for me- backing, planer and kite lines. I have all intents to put some on an old Squidder and sling it with the vintage Harnell it's on. I only specified mono as 1) you have mono on reel and maybe there's enough already and 2) you can usually get a cheap spool of mono for backing readily; dacron is not as cheap or readily available for, as you say, experimenting.
Let us know what you come up with, and how it works- preferably with a cod!
John
hey Lee, when you say 200 ft on trolling reels, is that for your offshore? you mention fluoro topshot on downrigger reel, is that directly to braid or to a mono topper on top of braid? I've been on the fence about braid use on my downrigger rigs- certainly would have a mono topper and would like your opinion. Trolling for stripers where I am is very similar to salmon- spoons and jigs, and lately Alabama rigs. I usually run 20 mono on Daiwa SL 47's or 310/320GTi's.
I did switch from cable to 200lb PP on the downrigger itself- got rid of the dang humming and no more wire in my hand.
sorry to hijack :)
"....when you say 200 ft on trolling reels, is that for your offshore?"
Yes, Spectra wind whips and I have had rods cut off when fish hit with the line around the tip. I use Berkley Solar Collector line so I can see it better.The reels I troll for trout in the extremely shallow Klamath lake have short or no mono/Flouro on them. We fish far back, as far as 100 yards, so the spooked fish settle down before the lure gets to them and mono stretch can be a problem. My Kokanee/makanaw trolling reels have 20' topshots.
"....you mention fluoro topshot on downrigger reel, is that directly to braid or to a mono topper on top of braid?"
I tie it directly to the braid. Spectra tends to slip in my downrigger clips so I clip to the fluoro. Mono works too but the lakes I troll for kokanee in are really clear. I sometimes clip the DR release on the mono/fluoro at the knot to eliminate slippage. Try braid on one of your downrigger rods and see if it works for you.
200# Spectra is much better than cable on the downriggers, my Scotty electrics have Spectra on them, the Scotty Strongarm ones I picked up last week still have cable but when it needs to be replaced it will be with JB hollow 200#. BTW, I put both pairs of downriggers on my "new" 16' boat to see if I can fish them and eliminate stacking.
Quote from: thorhammer on July 30, 2020, 12:47:37 PM
The beauty of this site is you get glean from global experience- Steve is in Hi, Lee in PNW, I'm in NC, etc etc, and we all fish for different things in different ways, so what happens is you get a good look at different ways to skin a cat, and maybe you take away a bit of each to skin yours the best way for you. Dacron certainly has it's applications and I use it for various things where it works best for me- backing, planer and kite lines. I have all intents to put some on an old Squidder and sling it with the vintage Harnell it's on. I only specified mono as 1) you have mono on reel and maybe there's enough already and 2) you can usually get a cheap spool of mono for backing readily; dacron is not as cheap or readily available for, as you say, experimenting.
Let us know what you come up with, and how it works- preferably with a cod!
John
I have the braid spooled with a 15' mono leader
I'll let you know how it works this weekend - weather permitting!
I'll let you all know how it works this weekend - weather permitting!
Thanks, Lee! I have avoided stacking.
Rocks, good luck!
Quote from: thorhammer on August 01, 2020, 02:46:01 PM
".... I have avoided stacking...."
Have you tried running a second bait or lure on a slider on the line in the release?
Thanks, Lee! I have avoided stacking.
Rocks, good luck!
First time using braid instead of mono! Got our regulation 5 cod each!
Removed about 20 fathoms of the 40 pound mono and spooled on 165 yards of 50 pound braid and then topped it off with a 15' leader of the mono using double uni knots for both. Did seem like it was more responsive than the mono (was fishing at about 35 fathoms) but did find one strange issue - lure fouling. All three of us were using similar lures and equipment but my reel with the braid kept fouling the lure. Had to haul up and unfoul it up several times but the other two guys using mono only never had a hitch. Is this a common issue or was I having a bad day?
I have never noticed this. One problem I do have is wind whip when trolling, that is why I use 200' topshots on my trolling reels, not downrigger reels though.
Lee:
Thought it was strange too. Sea conditions were almost flat calm, no tide, nothing out of the ordinary that I could see. Pretty well perfect conditions. Only thing that came to mind afterwards was a possible change in the speed of the sinking lure. Since the braid was only half the diameter of the mono, I was wondering if my lure was sinking at a faster rate than the other guys, with the resulting increase in speed causing the hook (with drag from the artificial bait) sinking at a slightly slower speed than its 5 ounce weight above it creating the foul? Just guessing as this is my first time using braid.
Open to suggestions...
We're you using the 309 or the spinning reel? With the spinning reel Run the line thru your fingers on the decent to keep a tiny bit of pressure on it so there's no slack. Use your thumb on the spool for the 309. Keep everything straight up and down. Also at times there can be different current at the top of the water column than the bottom, if the lure flutters like a spoon does that can cause it to tangle
Did you put bait on the lure? Sometimes that will cause the lure to sink hook up causing tangles
I love braid but that's one of the negatives, it tangles like crazy, you really have to learn how to handle it.
Quote from: Swami805 on August 03, 2020, 01:39:53 PM
We're you using the 309 or the spinning reel? With the spinning reel Run the line thru your fingers on the decent to keep a tiny bit of pressure on it so there's no slack. Use your thumb on the spool for the 309. Keep everything straight up and down. Also at times there can be different current at the top of the water column than the bottom, if the lure flutters like a spoon does that can cause it to tangle
Did you put bait on the lure? Sometimes that will cause the lure to sink hook up causing tangles
I was using the 309. Figured I'd try it on that one first before I switched the Fierce over as well. I was using the thumb from time to time to keep the spool from over-reving but maybe not paying enough attention to it.
The lure only had the artificial bait on it.
Quote from: nelz on August 03, 2020, 03:03:11 PM
I love braid but that's one of the negatives, it tangles like crazy, you really have to learn how to handle it.
Guess I'll be a bit more careful next time.
Glad to hear it just wasn't me!
You probably are dropping down too fast. Try lowering a little slower. Dominick
Was it a lead head with some kind of tail on it? Sometimes those kind of spin if the tail isn't on straight. Watch it sink off the side of the boat next time and see how it does
Quote from: Swami805 on August 03, 2020, 10:02:21 PM
Was it a lead head with some kind of tail on it? Sometimes those kind of spin if the tail isn't on straight. Watch it sink off the side of the boat next time and see how it does
Here it is. I'll keep an eye on it next week.
What type of braid did you end up going with? I just got an aluminum spool and some carbontex drags for my new to me 309 and I'm thinking of what to put on it. Was thinking 50-65# Dacron or power pro with a 30# mono topshot. Was thinking of going with straight big game solar collector but think braid might be a better idea.
Quote from: thorhammer on July 30, 2020, 12:47:37 PM
The beauty of this site is you get glean from global experience- Steve is in Hi, Lee in PNW, I'm in NC, etc etc, and we all fish for different things in different ways, so what happens is you get a good look at different ways to skin a cat, and maybe you take away a bit of each to skin yours the best way for you. Dacron certainly has it's applications and I use it for various things where it works best for me- backing, planer and kite lines. I have all intents to put some on an old Squidder and sling it with the vintage Harnell it's on. I only specified mono as 1) you have mono on reel and maybe there's enough already and 2) you can usually get a cheap spool of mono for backing readily; dacron is not as cheap or readily available for, as you say, experimenting.
Let us know what you come up with, and how it works- preferably with a cod!
John
Agreed, so true. I for one have never considered Dacron as a line of choice, I always thought it's the same as Spectra/Dynema, just thicker and who wants thicker? I've learned something again.
Is like I used straight braid as a leader on to my lure for about 12 years, mainly for its strength. This works very well, but caused a huge outcry when I mentioned it to some, because it is 100% opposite to what most people do and believe in.
The only reason I stopped doing it is because it is too thin and cuts your hand if you attempt to pick up a fish by the leader.
Quote from: Lingwendil on August 04, 2020, 03:28:49 AM
What type of braid did you end up going with? I just got an aluminum spool and some carbontex drags for my new to me 309 and I'm thinking of what to put on it. Was thinking 50-65# Dacron or power pro with a 30# mono topshot. Was thinking of going with straight big game solar collector but think braid might be a better idea.
I picked up two 150m rolls of 50# J-Braid X8 at a local store for $5 per roll so I gave it a try. My 309 was spooled with 40# mono so I just removed some, spooled on the braid and used 15' of the mono as a leader. The mono is more abrasion resistant for contact with bottom items and the larger diameter makes it easier on the hands to lift the fish in.
You should read through the entire thread as some guys had some great info on using braid.
Try changing out the treble hook on the bottom for a assist hook on the top.
Lee:
Call me a newbie but not quite sure what you're describing ???. Would you have a pic?
google butterfly jig assist hook. its a snelled single hook attached at the head of a lure, directly to a welded ring the mainline is attached to. the jig itself is also attached to the ring. less fouling.
Thanks!
Never seen that done before. Our usual hooks were always bottom mounted so you could jig when the fish were full of bait and weren't actually biting.
I just got some 50lb power pro and it has a new box,,, ??? But I don't know if it's new and improved or just the same,,,,,, ;D
I ordered a 300yd roll of tuf-line 50# to check out, I may run it on my 309 with a top shot of 25# or higher big game solar collector.