Reel Repair by Alan Tani

General Maintenance Tips => General Questions and Trouble Shooting => Topic started by: Mandelstam on August 17, 2020, 08:35:08 AM

Title: Can carbontex be cut with a laser cutter?
Post by: Mandelstam on August 17, 2020, 08:35:08 AM
I need to cut out a few washers from a sheet and have access to a laser cutter at work. Is it possible to cut CF with that? 
Title: Re: Can carbontex be cut with a laser cutter?
Post by: Tiddlerbasher on August 17, 2020, 09:51:58 AM
I don't see why not. Personally I just punch them out with the appropriate size wad punch.
Accuracy is not usually an issue for spinners and star drags.

(https://alantani.com/gallery/25/9780_02_11_18_4_34_58_258502452.jpeg)

(https://alantani.com/gallery/25/9780_02_11_18_4_34_56_258461116.jpeg)

Title: Re: Can carbontex be cut with a laser cutter?
Post by: Mandelstam on August 17, 2020, 10:04:25 AM
I've looked for punches and the sets I've found are really expensive. Like $200 for a set of 2-30mm. Or like 5-10 bucks a piece.
Title: Re: Can carbontex be cut with a laser cutter?
Post by: Mandelstam on August 17, 2020, 10:07:48 AM
When asking Google it replies like this:

"Can you cut carbon fiber with a laser?
Do not use a laser cutter as it will not work any carbon fiber. The laser melts the epoxy much faster than it can have an impact on the carbon fibers. This results in a very poor cut line and very few broken fibers."

Ugh... Guess I'd cut it manually then.
Title: Re: Can carbontex be cut with a laser cutter?
Post by: Tiddlerbasher on August 17, 2020, 10:25:44 AM
I think the article you found is referring to laminated prepreg type materials - carbontex is different. If I had access to a laser cutter I would certainly give it a try - nothing to loose I guess.
Wad punches do not have to be that expensive - and think long term about how many washers you will eventually cut. If you only need a few buy them ready made from Dawn @ Carbontex or Russ @ Blackdog.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Maun-1001-05-WAD-Punch-Black/dp/B0001P0E0U/ref=asc_df_B0001P0E0U/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=218092154549&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=6849256228467311551&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1006774&hvtargid=pla-423287064238&th=1
Title: Re: Can carbontex be cut with a laser cutter?
Post by: oc1 on August 17, 2020, 12:42:55 PM
Someone here made some punches with soft metal.  I think (but am not sure) it was using copper pipe or pipe fittings sharpened on a grinder.  I'll try to find it again.

If you only need a couple of washers then having to re-sharpen often isn't a big deal. 

I just cut them by hand with shears.  If I had access to a laser cutter I wouldn't be wasting time on drag washers when there are so many other cool things it can do.
-steve
Title: Re: Can carbontex be cut with a laser cutter?
Post by: Mandelstam on August 17, 2020, 01:21:19 PM
Thanks guys!

I might give the laser cutter a try. Otherwise I'll try the compass method and cut them out with that.
Title: Re: Can carbontex be cut with a laser cutter?
Post by: mo65 on August 17, 2020, 01:59:15 PM
Quote from: oc1 on August 17, 2020, 12:42:55 PM
Someone here made some punches with soft metal.  I think (but am not sure) it was using copper pipe or pipe fittings sharpened on a grinder. 

   I haven't tried this, but I'm sure it would work fine, and would be very economical.
Title: Re: Can carbontex be cut with a laser cutter?
Post by: jurelometer on August 17, 2020, 06:59:53 PM
I am not an expert on this stuff, but have had a small amount of firsthand experience.  It is very important to understand the safety aspects before going forward.

If you are using a normal 20-100 watt C02 laser, it won't work.  It might also damage the machine and/or your health.


It s barely possible to cut the plain thin carbon fiber weave without resin,  and you have to cover any viewing window, as the much of laser light gets reflected off of the material.    I used a laser next to a guy that cut carbon fiber business cards this way.   It took a lot of tweaking and was slow going. 0nce the "card" was cut and etched, he would coat with clear resin.

So in addition to being very difficult (probably impossible) to get the laser to burn all the way through all that thick weave there is also the resin core.   The laser will vaporize this, creating gasses.  Some common materials (e.g. PVC, polycarbonate) produces gasses that will damage the laser, and also possibly your health, depending on how the laser is sealed and vented.  Also, certain materials can combust.  You could end up with a fire, or some sort of gooey flaming  napalmish substance dripping down from the part.

BTW:  C02 lasers are really nice for cutting Delrin/acetal washers if your laser is reasonably strong.  I made a ton of washers, plus some other sheet stock based parts from acetal sheets.

Bottom line is that you do not want to try cutting anything with a laser without knowing for certain that the chemical composition of the material is compatible.  If something goes wrong,  you can damage more than the part.

There are different laser technologies out there,  so perhaps it is possible with the right equipment.

Other options -  water jet probably will not work.  Some of the deflected water goes sideways, probably leading to some delamination.

Router- CNC or hand router with a pattern and a pattern or flush trim bit.  This can work, but you have to understand the safety practices unique to carbon fiber.  The dust is highly conductive, so if enough of it gets into a motor or electronics, you can get a short or even a fire.  The dust is probably a health risk for the lungs (shave the beard and wear a respirator with s particulate filter- 3M will tell you which-also goggles that seal around the eyes). The dust will carry an electrostatic charge from cutting, so it will cling to walls, ceilings, etc, making it very hard to clean).  Yo have to read up on the safety practices before going down this route.

I have done a small amount of routing on finished carbon fiber panels, and got very clean cuts.  The dust was very fine, travelled far, and stuck to everything.  Kind of creepy.  I wore a respirator, googles, jumpsuit, HEPA vacuum router attachment, and still did not feel like this was enough.

Punches / knifes, scisdors, etc.  -   Don't know how well these  works, but they should generate less dust than a router.  I would try this first.  The compass method sounds like it is worth a try.

Hope this helps,

-J
Title: Re: Can carbontex be cut with a laser cutter?
Post by: Mandelstam on August 17, 2020, 07:45:23 PM
Quote from: jurelometer on August 17, 2020, 06:59:53 PM
I am not an expert on this stuff, but have had a small amount of firsthand experience.  It is very important to understand the safety aspects before going forward.

If you are using a normal 20-100 watt C02 laser, it won't work.  It might also damage the machine and/or your health.


It s barely possible to cut the plain thin carbon fiber weave without resin,  and you have to cover any viewing window, as the much of laser light gets reflected off of the material.    I used a laser next to a guy that cut carbon fiber business cards this way.   It took a lot of tweaking and was slow going. 0nce the "card" was cut and etched, he would coat with clear resin.

So in addition to being very difficult (probably impossible) to get the laser to burn all the way through all that thick weave there is also the resin core.   The laser will vaporize this, creating gasses.  Some common materials (e.g. PVC, polycarbonate) produces gasses that will damage the laser, and also possibly your health, depending on how the laser is sealed and vented.  Also, certain materials can combust.  You could end up with a fire, or some sort of gooey flaming  napalmish substance dripping down from the part.

BTW:  C02 lasers are really nice for cutting Delrin/acetal washers if your laser is reasonably strong.  I made a ton of washers, plus some other sheet stock based parts from acetal sheets.

Bottom line is that you do not want to try cutting anything with a laser without knowing for certain that the chemical composition of the material is compatible.  If something goes wrong,  you can damage more than the part.

There are different laser technologies out there,  so perhaps it is possible with the right equipment.

Other options -  water jet probably will not work.  Some of the deflected water goes sideways, probably leading to some delamination.

Router- CNC or hand router with a pattern and a pattern or flush trim bit.  This can work, but you have to understand the safety practices unique to carbon fiber.  The dust is highly conductive, so if enough of it gets into a motor or electronics, you can get a short or even a fire.  The dust is probably a health risk for the lungs (shave the beard and wear a respirator with s particulate filter- 3M will tell you which-also goggles that seal around the eyes). The dust will carry an electrostatic charge from cutting, so it will cling to walls, ceilings, etc, making it very hard to clean).  Yo have to read up on the safety practices before going down this route.

I have done a small amount of routing on finished carbon fiber panels, and got very clean cuts.  The dust was very fine, travelled far, and stuck to everything.  Kind of creepy.  I wore a respirator, googles, jumpsuit, HEPA vacuum router attachment, and still did not feel like this was enough.

Punches / knifes, scisdors, etc.  -   Don't know how well these  works, but they should generate less dust than a router.  I would try this first.  The compass method sounds like it is worth a try.

Hope this helps,

-J

Thank you! Exactly the kind of input I was after. I'm not totally sure what laser we have at work but it's probably co2 and not super high output, it's used to cut materal or architectural models.

I don't really need many washers and I think I'll just stick to manual cutting.
Title: Re: Can carbontex be cut with a laser cutter?
Post by: Tiddlerbasher on August 18, 2020, 09:26:14 AM
Thanks for the info Dave, very interesting.
Title: Re: Can carbontex be cut with a laser cutter?
Post by: Donnyboat on August 18, 2020, 11:38:29 AM
I cut all mine, by compass method, works good, mind you I would only cut a set every two months, cheers Don.
Title: Re: Can carbontex be cut with a laser cutter?
Post by: philaroman on August 18, 2020, 01:27:39 PM
is it a must to have a perfect circle?
I have some older, smaller spinner 6-stacks residing in comparatively spacious drag wells
I'm thinking I could get away with clean straight-cut octagons,
and the corners that stick out would not touch the sides
Title: Re: Can carbontex be cut with a laser cutter?
Post by: Mandelstam on August 18, 2020, 04:19:27 PM
Quote from: philaroman on August 18, 2020, 01:27:39 PM
is it a must to have a perfect circle?
I have some older, smaller spinner 6-stacks residing in comparatively spacious drag wells
I'm thinking I could get away with clean straight-cut octagons,
and the corners that stick out would not touch the sides


Now I haven't actually tried the compass method yet but from what I've seem it looks pretty easy and you also get perfectly concentric hole and outer circle as you use the same center point.

https://youtu.be/lIj532KL3kg
Title: Re: Can carbontex be cut with a laser cutter?
Post by: philaroman on August 18, 2020, 05:29:46 PM
compass?  I've been crying about that thing being my calipers, since the vernier's got "borrowed" :(
now, I learn it's a multi-tool -- WOOHOO!!! 
Title: Re: Can carbontex be cut with a laser cutter?
Post by: Bryan Young on August 18, 2020, 07:57:21 PM
I doubt laser would cut it very well. Waterjet is the way to go to cut CF drag washers. Punch is another means.
Title: Re: Can carbontex be cut with a laser cutter?
Post by: oc1 on August 18, 2020, 08:12:03 PM
That's a good trick with the compass.  Much better than what I can do with the shears.
-steve
Title: Re: Can carbontex be cut with a laser cutter?
Post by: Brewcrafter on August 19, 2020, 12:13:59 AM
That trick with the compass is SWEETTTTT! - john
Title: Re: Can carbontex be cut with a laser cutter?
Post by: RowdyW on August 19, 2020, 02:02:33 AM
You can't use the point for cutting. You have to sharpen the outer leg to a knife edge first.      Rudy
Title: Re: Can carbontex be cut with a laser cutter?
Post by: philaroman on August 19, 2020, 02:18:20 AM

do you think one of these could hold a cut-down, budget exacto?
...or, is the leg adjustment too dinky/imprecise to even bother?
Title: Re: Can carbontex be cut with a laser cutter?
Post by: philaroman on August 19, 2020, 02:32:47 AM

I'm thinking, with an exacto in place of the pencil, you could just twirl from the top,
as if drawing the same circle over & over, with same minimal force
so that neither dinky adjustment is stressed
Title: Re: Can carbontex be cut with a laser cutter?
Post by: RowdyW on August 19, 2020, 02:47:47 AM
The machinests scriber has a screw adjustment across it to keep it locked in position. Try taking a cheap compass & draw 20-30 circles in the same spot with a little pressure. I know just what that circle will look like. A spiral of circles.
Title: Re: Can carbontex be cut with a laser cutter?
Post by: Brewcrafter on August 19, 2020, 03:03:53 AM
I'm in agreement with Rudy on this; the one in the video is a little more robust since it has the solid connection (the threaded adjustment between the two legs).  I've made some great circular holes in drywall using only cord and a nail for a scribe but probably not practical or accurate in this application  ;D  The Xacto Knife in the grade school compass sounds intriguing, and the theory is good, but probably not robust enough for fine work. - john
Title: Re: Can carbontex be cut with a laser cutter?
Post by: philaroman on August 19, 2020, 03:07:34 AM
my thinking exactly...  kept looking:
Big Horn 19251 looks more promising AND cheaper
Title: Re: Can carbontex be cut with a laser cutter?
Post by: Brewcrafter on August 19, 2020, 03:11:11 AM
THAT looks promising!  You're only looking to make a few. - john
Title: Re: Can carbontex be cut with a laser cutter?
Post by: philaroman on August 19, 2020, 03:15:49 AM

not many in each size, but not so few all together  ;D

there's gotta be an even more serious vintage version, of a "pencil compass"

just another toy to look for  ::)
Title: Re: Can carbontex be cut with a laser cutter?
Post by: philaroman on August 19, 2020, 04:05:15 AM

am I crazy, or is this the same tool, under different "brands", BOTH at walmart.com
(of course, the one on "sale" is $10+, while the other is <$9, at regular price)  ;)

https://www.walmart.com/ip/general-tools-842-precision-pencil-compass-includes-pencil/536024937 (https://www.walmart.com/ip/general-tools-842-precision-pencil-compass-includes-pencil/536024937)

https://www.walmart.com/ip/6-in-Heavy-Duty-Pencil-Compass/448888120 (https://www.walmart.com/ip/6-in-Heavy-Duty-Pencil-Compass/448888120)
Title: Re: Can carbontex be cut with a laser cutter?
Post by: RowdyW on August 19, 2020, 04:11:21 AM
Try Harbor Freight, they're cheaper.
Title: Re: Can carbontex be cut with a laser cutter?
Post by: oc1 on August 19, 2020, 05:41:46 AM
Quote from: philaroman on August 19, 2020, 04:05:15 AM
BOTH at walmart.com

Gulp.... I actually have one of those.  The little loop that holds the pencil in place can barely support a pencil.  It's going to give out quickly with a knife applying more pressure.  

Cutting by hand, you can figure using about one exacto blade for every drag disk cut.  It works, but the exacto metal can't take much abuse.  

You are expected to sharpen and re-sharpen the machinist scribe described above.  The finer the point the better but dragging the point on metal makes it wear out.  Like most things, the older they are the harder the steel.

-steve

Title: Re: Can carbontex be cut with a laser cutter?
Post by: philaroman on August 19, 2020, 11:38:24 AM
thanks, Steve: exactly the info I wanted -- what not to bother with
had various notions to whip/epoxy/solder x-acto handle to the straight-legged Big Horn,
but if the blades are too soft, that whole family of plans gets euthanized  :(

Quote from: RowdyW on August 19, 2020, 04:11:21 AM
Try Harbor Freight, they're cheaper.

HF has something REALLY interesting w/ dual carbide cutters
https://www.harborfreight.com/carbide-tip-adjustable-circle-cutter-68117.html
any reason not to use that puppy, manually ??? 
looks good for anything >1" ID...  possibly, MUCH more if the centering bit cuts CF clean
Title: Re: Can carbontex be cut with a laser cutter?
Post by: Keta on August 19, 2020, 11:50:00 AM
I talked to a manufacturer in town about laser cutting dogs and showed them some CF material.  They said it can be cut but it takes a powerful laser to do it.   They cut up to 1/2" SS and titanium but said their lasers would not cut it unless pushing them harder than they wanted.

Quote from: Bryan Young on August 18, 2020, 07:57:21 PM
I doubt laser would cut it very well. Waterjet is the way to go to cut CF drag washers. Punch is another means.

I had some cut with a water jet, the edges were frayed and I had to flush out a lot of grit (ruby?) From the material.
Title: Re: Can carbontex be cut with a laser cutter?
Post by: oldmanjoe on August 19, 2020, 01:52:54 PM
 I used pipe fittings and sockets also drift punches . https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=24932.0
Title: Re: Can carbontex be cut with a laser cutter?
Post by: handi2 on April 26, 2022, 07:10:28 AM
https://share.icloud.com/photos/0a4VUBi8tAYs0mNLTaVFbLg0g

This is what Sal and I use.

It's expensive at $430.00

Keith
Title: Re: Can carbontex be cut with a laser cutter?
Post by: handi2 on April 26, 2022, 07:17:57 AM
Quote from: handi2 on April 26, 2022, 07:10:28 AMhttps://share.icloud.com/photos/0a4VUBi8tAYs0mNLTaVFbLg0g

This is what Sal and I use.

It's expensive at $430.00

Keith
Title: Re: Can carbontex be cut with a laser cutter?
Post by: ReelClean on April 26, 2022, 08:07:37 AM
Quote from: handi2 on April 26, 2022, 07:10:28 AMhttps://share.icloud.com/photos/0a4VUBi8tAYs0mNLTaVFbLg0g

This is what Sal and I use.

It's expensive at $430.00

Keith
Also have one, they are a repackaged Boehm set, may find it cheaper under the original manufacturers name.  You can also buy singles to fill in the gaps.
Cheers
Steve
Title: Re: Can carbontex be cut with a laser cutter?
Post by: Shootr2003 on July 07, 2022, 09:39:34 PM
How about a Cricut machine?it maybe workable ,it may lunch the blades or create dust but if it worked you could program it to cut a whole 12"x12"sheet into various size washers shapes,I know it will do that operation ,I'm not familiar with how easy carbon Tex cuts.it sounds hard but if scissors can a Cricut can.experiment on one of your own ,not you wife's!
Title: Re: Can carbontex be cut with a laser cutter?
Post by: jurelometer on July 09, 2022, 02:04:01 AM
Quote from: Shootr2003 on July 07, 2022, 09:39:34 PMHow about a Cricut machine?it maybe workable ,it may lunch the blades or create dust but if it worked you could program it to cut a whole 12"x12"sheet into various size washers shapes,I know it will do that operation ,I'm not familiar with how easy carbon Tex cuts.it sounds hard but if scissors can a Cricut can.experiment on one of your own ,not you wife's!

Seems unlikely.  The "frame" and steppers in those things are only strong enough to drag a sharp razor through soft vinyl.  And I am mot sure if cutting carbon drag sheets with an xacto style blade is even doable.  If you have to try something like this, there are hacks to mount a rotary tool like a Dremel onto a 3D printer ( and you get to learn GCode programming!).  Or even find one of those junk hobby Chinese desktop CNCs. But then all the problems with carbon fiber dust.  Beyond the health issues the dust is also conductive, so it can build up and short out all your electronics.

Another option is to use a Palm router or rotary tool setup with a pattern bit.  If you can find a friend with a 3D printer and some CAD skills, not too hard to make patterns.  Come to think of it, it probably wouldn't be too hard to design and 3D print a rotary tool gizmo that allows you to drop in different pattern guides.  I made something along these lines to resize cork rings for rod building.

Still all the dust problems, and really only useful for fancy eared washers.  If we are talking round washers, I would go with Keith's suggestion of punches.

-J
Title: Re: Can carbontex be cut with a laser cutter?
Post by: Shootr2003 on July 09, 2022, 04:31:42 AM
That's the average wife's Cricut though ,she told me they make bigger badder versions that will cut metal and wood,I haven't looked into that.