I am in need of your help in ordering some casting rod guides for a 250-400g jig rod build this winter.
Normal rods for me are roller guided, and casting rods usually have the normal factory type of build, butt i,m wondering about the first guide mainly right now of being tall enough to sorta equal a stripper guide in height. What size guide should that be ?
Ive got Alps guides that I like on an Okuma Cedros jig rod, butt the ones in catalog listing seem different.
Just wondering. Here,s a PreThanks. :-*
I like the alps guides, usually #20 for the stripper guide is about right but depends on the reel you're using
American tackle has a new line of boat rod guides with tall frames so you can use a smaller ring. Haven't gotten a chance to get my hands on a set but they make a high quality product. They have them in titanium too
Gary, I like a 16 or 20mm, depend on what size rig you are building and "height" of reel, and whether you will acid-wrap. For the UC Raptor acid wrap I built for Georgia Mike, I used a 20 stripper, as he has using a size 20 reel, which is tall; all my commercial rods that aren't acid wrapped have 16mm stripper. I use a double uni to leader so if I'm building, I typically go a size up on everything for easy clearance as I'm the guy replacing knocked-out inserts :). If I was jigging those car hoods like you, I'd go with 20-16-12-12-12-12-12 tip, acid-wrap. Everyone has own opinion, but I use that 20 stripper for acid wrap because I can start the offset a few degrees and still have the right hand edge be in the same spot relative to centerline of the blank as a perpendicular (non-offset) 16 stripper would be.
Sheridan was typing at same time as me and a much more concise answer :)
If you are at all concerned about leader knot issues, knocking out inserts; then most bigger companies have variants of their guides with a slightly cupped frame. AmTac call their system 'Ring Lock', Fuji call their "Concept', and PacBay have a frame style that have the cupped frames. Virtually cures inserts from being popped out by leader knots, even on high stress surf casting rods and big leader knots.
Recently started to use the new frame coatings on Fuji guides, the CC and BC finishes that are matt finish and look stunning, as a change from traditional polished or painted frames.
My 30# Spectra to 10# flouro L-2-L connections flow through #4 ring inserts.... :0)
A lot of jig rods use a reversed, tall stripper guide, but with a relatively small ring. Jig reels tend to be tall but narrow and you don't really cast them so there is no need for a large stripper guide.
This image kinda illustrates it:
(https://i1035.photobucket.com/albums/a437/sdmatthews001/VAIO/JIGSTAR/JSkatana200500_zpsb2bca160.jpg)
I must admit that I just finished to build a jigging rod using an "unknow" blank that was brought by a friend, its not a blank made from a jigging company but since it has a great bent and its solid glass he wanted me to built it after those professional jigging rods as those jigstars, OTI, etc.
He already had the blank and wanted me to use those Deepdrawn Pacbay guides because of the look and price, I installed a 20 size as striper guide and then 16 size to start the transition of the acid wrap, continued with a 12 size to finally use 10 size as runners under the blank, the 20 size eventho its not that hight and with small ring as those called "low raider guides" it works for the intended purpose of keeping the line outta the blank it just doesnt look like those high class slow pith jigging rods, so, I think it looks and works good, nothing that might affect the jigging technique to my understanding.
so, Gus, the stripper guide size depends on the reel that you think will be mostly used on that particular rod, if the reel sits already pretty high on the reelseat and its tall you might go with a normal or lower size guide as stripper, if the reel sits low on the reelseat and its small well you might have to install the stripper guide the closest you can to the foregrip and find a guide with the ring tall enough to keep the line from touching the foregrip when performing some stating tests.
Thank all, for steering my boat 🚣♀️. The photos in the Jigstar site were helpful in the visual part.
They turn the stripper guide around, what is this for ?
I will use a narrow Boss or narrow tallish Avet typical jig reel and as the photo below shows place the stripper fairy close to the fore grip I guess.
I prefer the wider type of trigger on the reel seat. The Fugi reelseats in ads like DPS or PSS Fugi in computer pics look narrow like a bass/steelhead rod app.....
Any ideas here?
Quote from: gstours on January 09, 2021, 01:08:43 AM
They turn the stripper guide around, what is this for ?
Gets the ring closer to the grip, I guess? With these parabolic blanks the line can cut into the foregrip if they don't have a tall stripper close to the grip.
The basic guide type being shown is a Fuji Low Rider, though some other companies have copied them. They were first designed to cope with line wraps on guides for surf rods using spinning reels and braid, whereby the first and sometimes second guide were reversed. The system works very well, however boat rod designers have since found that the largest 2 sizes (20 & 16), work very well as stripper guides for various boat rods, as they have a very tall frame, and are more robust than other tall frame guides.
We use these guides extensively on our surf rods, but back as far as 2001, I built boat rods with these guides, because of their ability to hold the line well away from the blank under upper scale loadings.
It just goes to show that solutions in one very distinct aspect of angling can equally be used i other aspects to cure different problems.
Thanks again for the comments. Yes it,s sorta making sense now.... ???. I have complained before about the line cuts in the fore grip butt thought these scars were kinda cool evidence of who won the knife fight.......
I like the smaller dia ring and height of the Low Riders by Fugi and think its the way for me to go.
Next question if I do a spiral wrap as planned should i switch after the first tall Low rider and go to another type for the next two, and then under the rod (5.5ft) with runner guide single footers? I think the side transition spiral guides could be shorter, butt do the higher guides help torque the rod to the left and fulfill the design of the spiral rod "advantage in design"?
Any comments will be welcome. ;)
Have a look at pictures of the Jig Star Twisted Sista as a guide. The second generation (reddish-brown) probably being a better option
(https://maxelfishing.se/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Jigstar_Twisted_SistaII2.jpg)
Things to note:
Only 3 guides back from the tip are single foot. All the transition guides are dual foot.
The guide immediately before the stripper is clocked slightly past centre to clockwise (looking from the butt). This makes the line come through the middle of the stripper guide and improves line-lay. If all your transition guides go anti-clockwise the line will come through the side of the stripper guide and you will end up with line stacking on one side of the reel.
Would suggest that Low Riders for the first 2 guides, then something like dual leg KW guides for the full transition of the spiral, as there will ne a side load component during the transition, which might destabilse single leg guides, then once the spiral transition is complete, then single leg guides like Kl for the last section.
Hope that helps
Thanks again for the information. I know its not that scary, butt I want to learn the theory firstly and then attempt a rod to test on a nice fish.
Mr. Boon suggested,
(looking from the butt). This makes the line come through the middle of the stripper guide and improves line-lay. If all your transition guides go anti-clockwise the line will come through the side of the stripper guide and you will end up with line stacking on one side of the reel.
I,m not sure what is meant from the above text? So i,ll re ask.
The guide immediately before the stripper is clocked slightly past centre to clockwise (looking from the butt). This makes the line come through the middle of the stripper guide and improves line-lay. If all your transition guides go anti-clockwise the line will come through the side of the stripper guide and you will end up with line stacking on one side of the reel.
Below is some info i copied from the computer forums that I could find. Is line stacking more of a problem with non levelwind reels?
I read somewhere that having the line lay more to the left, (rh crank) its better as the thumb can easier push the line to the right of the spool if needed.
On some rods where you are repeatedly removing and retrieving only a small amount of line, like on a bass casting rod, and there is little chance of ever emptying a reel and having to retrieve an entire spool of line, the small amount of stacking to one side is negligable, especially if the person who fills the reel pre-stacks it slightly to the opposite side when the reel is filled.
On the trolling rods I build, line stacking is a prime concern with non level line reels because a large predator fish can strip 200-400 yards, not feet, of line from the reel. A few years back, I got a call from a charter captain looking for help because over the winter he made himself a set of spiral wrapped rods and he followed one of the plans that suggested about a 10 degree offset in the direction of the spiral. The first big fish of the season on one of these rods stripped off about 300 yards of line on its initial run. Later, when the customer had the fish about 40-50 feet from the transom of the boat, the customer told the captain he had a problem, he couldn't turn the reel handle. The Captain discovered the line had stacked to one side so severely that the line was binding on the inside of the frame crossbars. I ended up having to re-tie the first couple guides on every rod to correct the problem.
I think the topics of when, how, and why to vary away from the traditional spiral systems are topics that have not been well examined yet. There's also seems to be two schools of thought about whether the line path through the spiral should be as straight as possible or a second concept that the line should bend somewhat at the guide. The straight line approach probably works best with hand-held casting rods, and the latter seems better suited to rods that are heavily loaded while fighting fish. A third dichotomy seems to be with guide sizing for the actual reduction; some approach this from a gradual standpoint (16,12, 10, 8) while others might have just two guide sizes a larger stripper and then immediately go to running guides for all the rest of the guides.
I think what we should be taking from all this is that we should not be using any of the "systems" without forethought as to how the rod will be used. A lot of the systems were developed for casting rods and do not translate well to rods used for trolling or fighting large fish. The general concept of getting the guides underneath the blank is the key, how you get the line there is best dictated by what the rod is built to do. When I build a spiral trolling rod, I spend a LOT of time tinkering with the guide location and angles and I try to simulate the effect of loading a rod to take into consideration everything from landing a small undersized fish, to a "screamer" that nearly empties the reel. Just like every other rod build, spiral wrapped blanks have a story to tell - you just have to experiment from the traditional spiral "systems" to know what to look for, and which factors are important considerations for your particular build.
One last thought is how long the reel will be matched with the rods. If it's probably going to be a lifetime pairing, then running the line through the rod to see how the two work together as a team to either prevent stacking (or possibly cause stacking - for non-levelwinds) is probably a solid approach. For me, this sometimes is not a concern because some of the captains I build for have affiliations as pro-staffers with reel companies, and the reels sometimes change from year to year. If this is the case, I try to cover future reels by assuring that I place the stripper guide so that the line is centered above the blank. I'm doing more of that now, even with the non-charter customers as the guys who can afford custom rods tend to update their reels somewhat regularly as new models are introduced.
And lastly on a rh crank reel is the spiral better to go in a clockwise direction? Thanks for more information. :)
Quote from: gstours on January 11, 2021, 02:48:48 AM
I,m not sure what is meant from the above text? So i,ll re ask.
The guide immediately before the stripper is clocked slightly past centre to clockwise (looking from the butt). This makes the line come through the middle of the stripper guide and improves line-lay. If all your transition guides go anti-clockwise the line will come through the side of the stripper guide and you will end up with line stacking on one side of the reel.
Below is some info i copied from the computer forums that I could find. Is line stacking more of a problem with non levelwind reels?
For what I consider to be a "true" mechanical jigging reel, the spool is tall and very narrow; also the reels are relatively small and low-ish capacity to keep the weight down for the jigging part. They are also (almost) never level-wind.
Typical line capacity is in the realm of 300-400m; because the spools are narrow if you take 150m off the reel there is plenty of time to cause problems if you stack all the line on one side of the reel. Also if you're jigging (mechanical jig style) it is almost impossible to manage line-lay while you do it; that's why I use a spinning reel and overhead folk use narrow reels that generally manage line lay on their own, assuming the guide layout isn't pulling all the line to one side of the reel.
Thanks again for sharing your information. If it's good or not, and maybe too early to say anything.....
There seems to be some ideas on the early correction of what happens at the stripper guide and the next one away. This is for rods that can lose a hundred yard quickly and the line is wound on a little at a time.
Inthe pic below the second guide starts the issue.
The second pic shows a smaller guide slightly away from the way the spiral is following. Here I will call it a correction guide, as I think it job is to pull the line down from the stripper guide and try to hold it in the center of the line coming up onto the reel unattended? From what I've gathered.....
It also seems l as soon as practicable the transition to the 180 degrees should be made. Maximum advantage is attained. It seems....?
This seems like option #1. Like so many things, it might not be a fine point. Butt here is more findings.. ;)
This picture is from a video from a rod supply tutorial and was pirated for this forum. For information sharing only. And thanks. 2
The view is from the butt, the stripper guide is shown with a dot in side showing the line coming back to the reel in theory. By offsetting it firstly, the line won't be in the center of the guide under the fighting cranking process..... Possibly it does 2 things, eliminates the second offset opposite guide and saving some space. And helps keep the in coming line more to the center of the spool when unattended like a conventional rod. This seems logical.
I hope to find out, and report back with some pictures and be able to help others.
Thanks again to all, Be safe, Stick around.🎣
In my head that makes sense, I think. Nice diagram, explains it clearly.
Thinking it through, I suspect the logic for using the second "correction" guide instead of offsetting the stripper guide is because if you presumably aligned the "dot" with the middle of the spool (side-to-side middle), there would be more resistance to loading the left side of the spool (pulling against the guide) than the right. With a centred stripper guide and "correction" second guide, I think it's more neutral?
Looking at the various photos, and this need to try and bias the retrieved line more centrally to the reel. Is the problem exaggerated by the use of larger size guides as the first guide - seems in the photos they are all size 25 or more. There might be a benefit to using a small eye size guide that is high enough not to cause problems - like a Fuji LC 16M. We use these guides a lot for the height of the guide (35mm), and being a smaller eye size, will reduce the problems encountered with the larger eye size guides.
If they weren't only recommended for up to 20lb class rods, the Fuji WDB guides with the narrow oval insert might also be an option.
The rods are generally not being used for casting so guide size can possibly be taken down considerably, without detriment to overall performance.
Just a thought.
Here is one of the new Fuji frames that Jeri mentioned. I like them, and they do look nice. This one has the Fazlite insert. Fazlites are relatively inexpensive and probably more durable than the higher end inserts. I have been using Fazlite tips, but am building my first rod with all Fazlite guides.
(https://alantani.com/gallery/34/11927_12_01_21_12_01_37.jpeg)
Here is a Fuji reel seat with a big trigger in the back. These are called palming reel seats because they allow you to cup a low profile reel in your left hand when working the rod. You can also get a couple fingers ahead of the trigger when casting, IMHO much better for casting and working jigs, especially heavier stuff.
These seats worked well for me with smaller conventionals that are medium width ( like a Newell 220), but are
a thing of beauty with a big low profile. I would not build a rod for a low profile saltwater reel without a palming seat.
Since these seats are top locking, I like to add a lock ring to provide more thread contact area in addition to preventing loosening from boat vibrations over time. I also cut back the threaded portion. These seats are pretty long. Finding Fuji lock rings can be difficult. I think that Get Bit carries them.
You can see the lock ring and shortened seat on the completed rod in the photo.
(https://alantani.com/gallery/34/11927_12_01_21_12_00_28.jpeg)
Don't know how well these seats will work with a tall reel. If you are not casting, and cannot palm a tall reel, not sure what any trigger seat will do for you.
I have some opinions on building the rod that I will post separately. Nobody reads more than a paragraph or two nowadays :)
-J
I only build two or three rods per year, usually when I want something not available off the shelf, so take this with a grain of salt:
1. Make sure that you can tuck the butt under the armpit when working the reel. This usually means moving the reel seat up an inch or two from a typical location. If the rod is real short and you want to do spiral wraps, it might be a difficult compromise. A small bulb shaped butt cap is nice.
2. Spilt rear grips don't really save much weight on these rods, and are on the short end of the fulcrum. I see these as mostly a cosmetic feature for drop jigging rods. Split grips suck for blank damage during use, and get in the way or worse if you need to temporarily stick the rod in a holder for some reason. Cork and especially foam grips do not inhibit bending in any significant amount.
3. Single foot guides snag on things more, tangle with slack braided line more easily, and are more easily damaged. Pull out is also a problem, but better builders than I claim this is manageable with proper wrapping and using wider foot singles where needed. My opinion is to use single foot guides only wher they can clearly provide a benefit. I don't think there is much benefit on a short rod used for dropping larger jigs. If you really want to save weight, smaller guides can be used as Jeri noted.
4. For bendy rods, I am now using composite cork rings for reel seat arbors under the ends of the seat with a section of fiberglass mesh tape for an arbor in the middle. When under heavy load, many factory jigging rods have a very acute bend where the blank meets the reel seat. The composite cork arbors makes the transition to the stiff section under the reel seat more gradual. For any rod that bends past the reel seat, a shorter reel seat is probably beneficial.
5. Spiral wrap rods are a pain to manage on a boat. There is always a guide sticking out the wrong way when you try to stow the rod(especially in a gunnel rack) and setting the rod on the deck with the reel up means that the runner guides are scraping on the deck. Laying the rod down with reel on the non-handle side scrapes the transition guides. I would want to see enough benefit in spiral wrapping for a specific blank and usage before going this route. The only thing that I can think of is less tip tangles when vigorously jigging, but the new anti-tangle tip frames have now pretty much fixed this problem for standard guide on top wrapped rods.
I have only built one spiral wrapped bendy jigging rod, and did not use it much. It took one less guide than a standard wrap. I did not find any obvious performance benefit or detriment from the spiral wrap. Folks with more experience might have some better guidance here.
-J
The spiral wrap is intended to stop the rod from trying to roll over when it's under a big load. It does a good job when you REALLY bend a rod through the full length, and the effect is more pronounced when using a tall reel.
The current bleeding edge of blanks which are made from a helix of opposing spiral tapes, instead of a rolled sheet, have less tendency to want to "turn inside out". I have a Shimano Grappler slowjig rod built in this manner (they call it "Spiral X") that has a conventional guide layout and I have never felt it want to roll over, even with a fairly tall reel (OJ 2000NR).
I built a couple spiral wrapped rods in the 90's when I first learned of it. I really tried to like them but found no real benefit, at least not enough to out weigh negatives. Like many things it's personal preference though, might be worth a try and see what you think.
The concept has been around for a long time, there's a reason is hasn't really caught on.
Quote from: boon on January 13, 2021, 01:08:50 AM
The current bleeding edge of blanks which are made from a helix of opposing spiral tapes, instead of a rolled sheet, have less tendency to want to "turn inside out". I have a Shimano Grappler slowjig rod built in this manner (they call it "Spiral X") that has a conventional guide layout and I have never felt it want to roll over, even with a fairly tall reel (OJ 2000NR).
That's really interesting Boon. The opposing spirals sounds like filament winding. The technique has been around for a long time to make tanks, pipe and even boat masts. But I never heard of it being used for fishing rods... except, perhaps, for DIY.
Rolling rods from prepreg cloth will leave a seam where the cloth begins and ends. That's what creates a spine in a rod. Filament winding eliminates the spine.
-steve
Slight diversion from the core jigging rod theme, but when we built a few surf rods with spiral wrapped guides and with nylon lines, we found that the spiral wrapping significantly removed the roll-over effect, but more importantly for our long two handed surf rods, it removed a lot of stress from the non-winging hand holding the rod. Formerly with conventional guide set ups, people fighting larger fish often had a lot of stress on the non-winding hand, from subconsciously grabbing the upper handle with a death like grip - to stop the rod trying to roll over.
As to the newer Fazlite inserts from Fuji, I have been using them on a personal rod for over 12 months now, and experienced no problems with them, and certainly no negative effects on the longevity of the braid.
Hope that helps.
Thanks for everyone chiming in and trying to help me, the helpless ???
I,m here to learn and my questions may help others as well, this is why Alans idea for a forum makes him King.
As for the stripper guide and what it does in the spiral rap application another Idea came to mind. This guide now in my estimation, needs to be no larger inside diameter than the smallest diameter used down the length of the rod. No wind on leaders, nor casting, ie..
As we go through life there may be questions, some times a change, however slight, things may seem better for the beholder.
Sharing information here is free, and friendly. Almost every time a question is raised an answer is given and multiple options generally assist the question.
I now know a lot more about the spiral wrap jig rod than I did before penning the inquiry. Its now in the works , pictures will be posted in a while for sure ;) Thanks again. gs.
Re: question about stripper guide size - quick answer - it doesn't, except convention.
We see this all the time with our spinning reel surf rods, people expect to see a stripper in 40 & 50 sizes, but we get absolutely the best performance using a size 16.
The guides are just there to guide the line and cope with any wave action associated with that line, if you can get away with smaller, then do it.