Reel Repair by Alan Tani

Fishing Rods => Fishing Rods => Topic started by: JasonGotaProblem on February 17, 2021, 06:52:17 PM

Title: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: JasonGotaProblem on February 17, 2021, 06:52:17 PM
One of the blanks I'm looking at is raw graphite, seemingly without any finish. Do i need to/should I coat it with anything before I start building? Why or why not?
Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: oc1 on February 17, 2021, 07:12:40 PM
It's probably a matt finish.  All the same material is a shiny blank, just without the shine.
Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: ReelFishingProblems on February 17, 2021, 07:28:02 PM
I've got a similar issue, two blanks without gloss finish. I have CPXtra on the way to put a coat on the whole blank.
Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: Swami805 on February 17, 2021, 07:38:48 PM
Cpxtra is good stuff read the directions carefully. There's a little learning curve to get a good result.  There's a tutorial online by saltydawg that's pretty good.  Also store it upside down once opened, it will last longer
Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: oldmanjoe on February 17, 2021, 09:02:47 PM
 :o  NO don`t do it , you`ll make the rod heavy .!!!    How raw is it , was it sanded yet or does it still have the spirals on top ?
Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: jurelometer on February 17, 2021, 09:12:17 PM
Matte finish used to only be available on high end blanks.  Supposedly harder to hide defects, keeps the blank lighter, and more stealthy when wade fishing.

There is no need to paint or add a gloss finish unless you are into that kind of thing. Painting could have  a small risk of solvent damaging the epoxy resin in the blank.  It might void the warranty.

All epoxy finishes have issues with UV  degradation.  So if you fish a lot in bright sunlight, a coated blank can look pretty crappy over time.  Most folks don't fish enough to see it.  I have a couple factory gloss finished rods that look like old faded lawn furniture.  They still fish fine, but are not going to impress anybody.

A bit of carnuba wax applied for maintanence can help stave off the inevitable.

-J
Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: ReelFishingProblems on February 17, 2021, 10:21:40 PM
One blank I have that is matte is a Phenix Black Diamond Hybrid, the other is unbranded. I am getting the feeling that I should leave the Phenix as matte.
Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: Midway Tommy on February 17, 2021, 10:29:26 PM
Oldman Joe is absolutely on the money! Rod finishes add weight and usually look like crap unless done by pro or at a factory.

I hate matte and dull finishes. I tried a thin coat of rod finish on one rod years ago and hated that worse, just as Joe noted.

I found what I think is a great alternative, a wipe on coat or two of Penetrol (https://youtu.be/adFWRHFalQY). It soaks in a little bit and also leaves a thin protective coating that doesn't add any weight. It is simple to put on and gives the rod a beautiful smooth and even satin finish. I have rods it has been on for fifteen years and they still look like new. If it would happen to fade all that is needed is to clean the rod & add another coat, it only takes about five minutes to wipe on & overnight to completely dry. I no longer care if I buy a blank that arrives with a dull or matte finish. Actually I would rather have them that way so I can coat them with Penetrol.

I coat the blank with Penetrol between the guides after the wraps are finished to make sure the wrap epoxy sticks correctly. I also seal cork grips with it. It darkens the cork just a little bit but sure keeps it from getting dirty.

The top five rods in this photo were originally matte or dull and have two coats of Penetrol. You can enlarge it for a better look by clicking on it two times. 
Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: Rivverrat on February 17, 2021, 10:40:39 PM
 

                   Refinishing a rod will not add weight. If done properly. I have used this product for a few years now. They key to getting a good finish is sterile cleaning. I use a tack cloth . A tack cloth is the fastest way I have
                 found to properly clean a blank after sanding & prior to applying finish. Use no pressure on tack cloth just lightly passing over as the rod / blank spins in your lathe.

                This is the same finish used by many such as United Composites... Jeff           https://voodoorods.com/products/cpxtra-rod-finish
Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: oldmanjoe on February 17, 2021, 11:18:47 PM
I don`t know if you have watched any u tubes , if you watch a few different one you begin to see 'The why " rods are different .
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hFz1QyybAw
Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: Jeri on February 18, 2021, 12:08:28 AM
Over a number of years, the amount of finishing applied to carbon blanks after they come out of the ovens or autoclave has changed according to market desires.

Once a blank comes out of the oven, and the containment wrap is remove, it is left with an outer coating of the binding resin, which is hard and has a spiral texture related to the containment tape wrapping. This id a 'raw' blank, and for a long time this was how a lot of blanks were sold, and are still available today.

Subsequent procedures then finely sand the ridges of this spiral finish off and a proportion of the hard resin outer shell, and machine operators of this stage need to be highly skilled, of they can sand too far into the carbon fabric of the blank.

Blanks are then cleaned and applied with a wide variety of coating from coloured to plain and matt black. All these coatings add weight, obviously dependant on the thickness and nature of the coating. The value of the coatings is mostly cosmetic, and offers little in the way of benefit to the longevity of the blank from UV exposure, as the resins that bind the carbon fibres are not adversely affected by UV light.

Personally, I have rods that still have the hard spiral (unfinished) state that are over 35 years old, and show no signs of external deterioration. Two manufacturers that we use for our surf rods, supply the blanks unfinished to me deliberately, as that I find is a less problematic finish to rods than various 'paints'. It is hard to scratch and shows little or no deterioration over time, and for my mind provides a tougher outside shell to the core of the blank, than sanding and 'painting'. One particular rod with this finish is my own personal surf rod, and has been very heavily used for the last 6 years will absolutely no external blemishes, despite having been knocked around quite a lot.

In our refurbishment side of works on surf rods, we usually remove all the factory applied finishes, and then just sand the blanks to remove any fines scratches. The carbon blank is then left un this sanded but otherwise unfinished state, and then rebuilt with guides and handles etc. It does tend to leave the blank a matt grey colour, but then once finished we just give the rod a coat of normal domestic furniture polish, this finish then lasts as long as the customer desires or can be reapplied by them. This unfinished finish has not seen any problems with longevity on the surf rods, despite our environment being quite aggressive in a UV and salt sense, some have had 10 further years of heavy use - to date.

What we have seen in a lot of cheaper factory finished rods and some higher priced products, is that the 'paint' has covered up areas where the blanks have been excessively ground to the point where fibres of the matrix are heavily exposed due to over grinding, or less skilled machine operators.

Personally, I much prefer to very raw, unsanded blanks.
Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: JasonGotaProblem on February 18, 2021, 01:50:24 PM
As usual this thread has exceeded my expectations, thank you all. Given this new info I need to take a closer look and see if my initial assumption was correct or is it just a matte finish.

So assuming it is truly raw, what grit sandpaper is safe to use on it?

Also to be clear I do not dislike the matte finish. In fact I kinda like it. I'm just not accustomed to it.
Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: Tiddlerbasher on February 18, 2021, 03:16:17 PM
As I'm primarily a freshwater fisherman - fly/lure, I want a matt finish blank - no flash in bright light conditions.
Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: Swami805 on February 18, 2021, 04:28:46 PM
CPxtra is very thin, the consistency of water. Any weight gain would be a small fraction of a gram. A bit tricky to put on, the working time once applied is less than a minute.  It isn't a thick 2 part finish, I'd imagine it's thinner than a coat of paint
Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: steelfish on February 18, 2021, 06:54:19 PM
with the risk of not been considered a "serious" rod builder, which Im not, I doing it for the fun of it but I really enjoy to learn from the serious rod builders as Jeri, Sheridan, Dwight, etc.
But I think sometimes we take this "rod building thing" as if its a rocket science, all I can say to Jason is to keep asking and read about a product that someone recommend you, if you want to try it go for it and test it, you will learn 3x faster by your own experience than reading specially if the rod is for your personal use, maybe you might want to buy some $5 to $10 dlls fishing rods (around 3-5 rods even broken rods) on your local flea market to try the products before use it on your brand new blank, its not like you are gonna experiment on a $250 UC, Seeker or caltar state of the art blanks and toast them.

you are not saying the specs of the RAW graphite blank you are looking at but 2grams of clear coat, a 2grams of paint wont change that much the action of the blank specially if its not one of those expensive blanks or a specialized blank as Northfork composites, Black holes, etc.
by the kind of rods Im building which are mostly for weekend warriors you already know that my builds are more into enjoy the fishing day with a fishing rod that you like how it feels and how it looks but some Rod Builders and fishermen are more into getting the best of a blank with the less guides possible on the rod, the lighters reelseat, minimal tread work and minimal epoxy because they add un-wanted weight on the rod and kill the action and sensitiveness of it.
I say build a fishing rod you will enjoy for everyday use and use the accessories and components of your choice but its always important to learn about how to get the best from a good blank and try to keep its specs and performance at the best level possible just add your personal touch.




Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: JasonGotaProblem on February 19, 2021, 01:41:17 AM
So would this blank be considered an "unfinished" blank in need of sanding or should I leave as is? Yeah, I bought a blank. I did the best I could with the pics, which isn't saying much.
Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: steelfish on February 19, 2021, 02:12:37 AM
Quote from: JasonGotaPenn on February 19, 2021, 01:41:17 AM
So would this blank be considered an "unfinished" blank in need of sanding or should I leave as is? Yeah, I bought a blank. I did the best I could with the pics, which isn't saying much.

its not considered UNFINISHED, its considered "Unsanded", those marks looks similar to some small "ribs" that are left by the mandrel where the blanks are made, those blanks are cheaper than sanded blanks because the factory didnt spent any labor hours sanding the blank, I think Jeri already explained that, I will build it as is, when I made the picture bigger those marks kind of disappear, the rib marks I have seen on other blanks are more closer and are uniformly spaced, the blank looks like having a texturized surface, yours looks kind of different.

I actually like the feel on the blank of those "ribs", if you dont feel like using it as is and dont want to deal with any of those CPxptra, etc, urethane products, take the blank to a car bodyshop and ask how much they charge you to spray it with 2k clear coat, automotive clear coat has already UV protection and flex additives, some shops will ask just for a tip for Beer and some other will want to charge a lot for that.
Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: Midway Tommy on February 19, 2021, 03:34:28 AM
Kind of reminds me of the early Shimano Karate Sticks from the 1980s. Great rods and bring a fortune today if a guy can find one! They lightly sanded them and gave them a light finish coat. I've got one I bought new back in the day. Don't use it much any more but I like it a lot.
Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: Jeri on February 19, 2021, 07:31:09 AM
Quote from: JasonGotaPenn on February 19, 2021, 01:41:17 AM
So would this blank be considered an "unfinished" blank in need of sanding or should I leave as is? Yeah, I bought a blank. I did the best I could with the pics, which isn't saying much.

Not enough close detail in the photos to comment definitively. It looks like (when amgnified), that the carbon has been overwrapped with a woven fabric (carbon?), and that has all been sanded, to the point where in places the additional woven fabric has been sanded away - too much sanding?

If you run your finger nail down the blank, it should feel like continuous ridges, about 1mm apart - that is an unsanded blank. Some cheaper manufacturers skimp on the cellophane wrapping, and the ridges are further apart - they tend to be less tightly bound prior to çooking', and potentially weaker or less desirable.

A blank that is sanded, but unfinished will/might still show visual marks from the ribs, but will be relatively smooth to the feel/finger nail. Some blanks will have been sanded slightly more, and barely show any visual signs of the residue ribs.

As has been suggested, a 2 part '2K' finish can be applied and become a very serviceable rod, coloured or clear coating as desired. Others use a variety of finishes including some sealant products deliberately designed for sealing glass fibre applications. The choice and cost and difficulty is yours.
Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: oc1 on February 19, 2021, 08:47:40 AM
Roddy's first fiberglass rods in the 1950's were called "gator tail".  You could see and feel ridges near the tip.  They were having trouble with tips breaking until they stopped trying to sand the ridges off.  So, they tried to capitalize on what would otherwise have been considered an imperfection.  The name was reincarnated just recently in the Roddy Gator Tail rods by Penn.

If you can run the rod through your hand without finding a grainy texture or worrying about picking up a splinter, then it is probably good enough.  If you wanted, you could lightly sand with 500 to 1000 grit to make it smoother without trying to remove the ridges, 
Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: JasonGotaProblem on February 19, 2021, 12:07:18 PM
You can see the ridges but barely feel them. I have some very fine sandpaper (1000 and 2000 grit) that i may use to refine it a bit. But other than that i don't wanna overdo it.

Edit: there are a few tiny spots that feel like there's something there. I dont know if to call it a graphite splinter or just random imperfection. I'll investigate further when I sand it a bit.

I got the guy at the shop to use their spine finding tool and mark it for me. I was fairly sure I'd found it, but theres something to be said for a bit more certainty (yes, their mark matched what I thought I'd found).

I already have Fuji alconite guides, a Fuji reel seat, thread, and some epoxy (though I question if 5 minute epoxy is what I want for the operation or do I actually want something slower drying?). I just need some cork grips and away I go.
Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: oldmanjoe on February 19, 2021, 03:55:40 PM
  IN the second picture , the mid section looks to be sanded , almost a tiger effect look .   the tip looks slight sanded , and pretty big  !
  The glossy spirals on the top look to be the flag telegraphing through .
    I would not sand it now , or coat it .      Tape on your guide train and  lets see the load test and test cast do .
   5 minute for the grip and reel seat ,but not the thread coating .


Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: jurelometer on February 19, 2021, 09:33:55 PM
5 minute epoxy will tend to thicken too quickly to penetrate through the wraps and level on the surface. If you want to try it, you would need to mix a fresh batch for every guide, and it will still look bad.  Oh, and 5min epoxy has terrible UV characteristics. It will start yelowing in a matter of days to weeks outdoors.

I sometimes use 5 minute epoxy to glue on a tip top, as it is not THAT permanent.  A tiny bit of heat, and it will slide off for replacment.  I don't know if this is the best practice for tip tops, there could be something better.  This is the only use I have for 5 minute epoxy in rod building.

You definitely need a specialized wrap finish.  Five minute epoxy is an option for other rod building uses  that do not see daylight, and it does set faster.  But 20 minute is stronger, and gives you much more time to clean up and verify that everything is aligned.  If you want to get by with the minimum,  you will need rod wrap finish and 20 min epoxy, plus something that can be unbonded to glue on the tip.  

For attaching the reel seats, I prefer paste epoxy.  It stays where you put it.  PC-7 or PC-11 are my favorites, and I find many uses for paste epoxy beyond rod building.

For gluing cork rings together, I recently  switched to a highly water resistant wood glue that sands down well. I use Titebond III.  Before  wood glue, I was using 20 minute epoxy, which held well, but had more visible  joints, and was too hard, making it harder to get a smooth handle without ridges.

I use paste epoxy to glue an assembled cork grip to the blank.  For foam grips, I use 20 minute epoxy.  The liquid epoxy works like a lube, and there are tricks to sliding the grip down in a single motion, so you can use a surprisingly small diameter hole and get a nice tight fit.  A bit of hot air blown into the grip hole takes the drama out of sliding foam grips, but experienced builders that have the sizing and technique down can do this cold without getting nervous.

As for the blank surface:  Jeri's  explanation and advice  is sound.

I wouldn't worry about making the first rod build pretty.   Focus on performance and durability, and you will  already be ahead of most of the builders out there.  

But what do I know?  I believe that rods and reels are tools and not fetish items.   8)

-J
Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: Tiddlerbasher on February 20, 2021, 11:59:27 AM
For the tip top I always use simple hot melt glue (from a glue gun) - it's strong enough but very easy to remove ;)
Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: Rivverrat on February 20, 2021, 05:48:45 PM
Quote from: Tiddlerbasher on February 20, 2021, 11:59:27 AM
For the tip top I always use simple hot melt glue (from a glue gun) - it's strong enough but very easy to remove ;)

   Extra tips & lighter, one can do tip repairs in the field. In fact any guide with blown out or cracked ring insert, below the tip, can be quickly repaired in the field doing this. On most any non cow rod... Jeff
Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: oc1 on February 20, 2021, 07:01:42 PM
These days, the glue stick they sell for rods looks the same as the high-temperature sticks for glue guns.  Way back when, the glue stick for rods were a dark brown color with paper wrapper  The ones I remember were branded Weber and Silaflex ferrule cement.  Can't say one is better than the other.

I've overheated a few rods getting the tip off and had to cut an inch off the end of the blank.  They were put on with epoxy or something other than ferrule cement.
Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: Midway Tommy on February 20, 2021, 07:42:42 PM
I would never glue a tiptop on with epoxy. If you do good luck repairing or replacing it without breaking the rod tip. If you can't get tiptop or rod ferrule glue, a hot melt glue stick will suffice, but for $4 why not get the right stuff, a 3" stick will probably last you a lifetime. I have a 1" stick I got with my first rod build 30 years ago. It's still going and has built over 25 rods.

I always use a little Pliobond under my guides. I helps keep them in place until I get some tape to hold them in place. Plus, it never dries hard so there is a nice flexible protective layer between the guide and blank.   
Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: jurelometer on February 20, 2021, 08:53:11 PM
I do not do enough rods to claim with certainty what is "best" for tip top cement, but 5 minute epoxy is regularly used by builders, especially with bigger rods.  I have replaced a few epoxied tips, and have never damaged the blank. The trick is to  first remove any wraps and finish that overlap the tip, and then heat the barrel, pulling  on the tip while rotating the blank.  Using a candle for a heat source comes in handy if you don't have three hands.  If you do it right, the epoxy fails right at the contact point with the barrel, and the blank is barely warm when the tip pops off. It has to be five minute epoxy though, not the strong stuff.

The problem with regular glue gun glue is that it starts soft, and gets softer with heat, well below the melting point.  In hot climates, this can be a problem, especially if there is heavy twisting loads (more likely on conventional rods).  The amber colored ferrule cement has the same issues, but starts harder, and takes more heat to get soft. 

A heat melt cement that easier to remove migh be a fine choice for a bluegill spinning rod or trout fly rod in  moderate climates, but might not be the best choice for a big game rod in the tropics.

And BTW, lots of factory rod builds fail in hot humid climates.  Usually it is the reel seat or grips coming loose.

-J
Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: Jeri on February 20, 2021, 11:39:40 PM
I'd concur with Jurelometer, stay away from hot melt in any rod that is likely to be used where temperatures go much above 35 degrees C; seen it happen too often on beaches and on rivers here in Africa, which isn't that much hotter than anywhere else.

Have literally replaced 1000's of tips, where both hot melt and 2 part resin have been used, with only the occasional mishap, usually because the builder before used a tip too tight. Replacements are all done with 2 part epoxy. Another down side of hot melt glues that we have experienced is the silicone content, if it gets near unfinished threadwork, the finishing resin might well not set, a particular problem on all new builds at the tip.

On the choice of epoxy resins, have found the time factor/ setting time to be of little importance to the final strength when using some of the better quality products, cheaper products just will fail. The biggest failing of some 2 part epoxy resins, is that they are not waterproof, and it is the ingress of water that causes failure. Better adhesion can always be achieved with slightly roughing up the surface, especially inside a tubular reel seat.
Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: Midway Tommy on February 21, 2021, 04:07:00 AM
Are you totally confused yet, Jason?  ;D  Just jump in with both feet. There's enough rod building information out there on the interwebby to get you through the process and a decent rod on your first build.    ;) My dad had a couple of sayings that have stuck with me since I was a kid.  ???  "Any job worth doing is worth doing well", "There is a reason they put erasers on pencils", "I seldom learned much when I did something right but I learned a helluva lot when I did something wrong", and, "The difference between a wood butcher and a carpenter is that a carpenter knows how to fix his screwups." Dive right in, the worst thing that can happen is your first rod turns out crappy. You'll learn a few things and your next one, or two, or three will be quite a bit better.   8)
Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: steelfish on February 21, 2021, 04:15:48 AM
Quote from: Midway Tommy on February 21, 2021, 04:07:00 AM
........ "There is a reason they put erasers on pencils", "I seldom learned much when I did something right but I learned a helluva lot when I did something wrong",......

those totally apply to rod building.


I had to do each of those olive branches like 6-8 times until passing my QC level of OCD
Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: JasonGotaProblem on February 21, 2021, 04:38:22 AM
Dollar store super glue it is then.

While I'm kidding about using it for this build where quality or at least something approaching quality is the goal, I totally have used super glue in the past on a guide wrap. Looks like crap, but still fishes.

I'm glad my post stirred up some debate. There's lots of opinions and options out there. I try to learn as much as I can before diving in. But the process has begun.
Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: Jeri on February 21, 2021, 05:50:01 AM
Just imagine what it was like for those starting before the internet, web, youtube, etc............ :(

If you were lucky, you might find a book to start you off, but never access to the depth and variety of experience you can now access. The problem now is sorting through the diversity.

I still have my very first rod build, it has a special place in my rod store, but seldom sees light of day, and certainly wouldn't show it around in my shop.

Get stuck in, make mistakes, learn to be prepared to undo work, and be self critical; it is the only way forward.
Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: oldmanjoe on February 21, 2021, 06:23:43 AM
 ??? ???      I think most of us here lived the time before internet  8)           That`s what grand pa`s and uncles were for , always had something to teach yer ....
     I still have the text books that were written in the 30s - 50s  , learned the basic .    Today it is just embellishing the basics  ::)
Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: SteveL on February 21, 2021, 06:51:49 AM
Quote from: Midway Tommy on February 21, 2021, 04:07:00 AM
Are you totally confused yet, Jason?  ;D  Just jump in with both feet. There's enough rod building information out there on the interwebby to get you through the process and a decent rod on your first build.    ;) My dad had a couple of sayings that have stuck with me since I was a kid.  ???  "Any job worth doing is worth doing well", "There is a reason they put erasers on pencils", "I seldom learned much when I did something right but I learned a helluva lot when I did something wrong", and, "The difference between a wood butcher and a carpenter is that a carpenter knows how to fix his screwups." Dive right in, the worst thing that can happen is your first rod turns out crappy. You'll learn a few things and your next one, or two, or three will be quite a bit better.   8)

Paul Thorn composed a song exclusively of things his mother said:

https://youtu.be/zlthNE11yvk
Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: thrasher on February 21, 2021, 02:15:36 PM
Quote from: JasonGotaPenn on February 21, 2021, 04:38:22 AM
Dollar store super glue it is then.

While I'm kidding about using it for this build where quality or at least something approaching quality is the goal, I totally have used super glue in the past on a guide wrap. Looks like crap, but still fishes.

I'm glad my post stirred up some debate. There's lots of opinions and options out there. I try to learn as much as I can before diving in. But the process has begun.
Some guys that turn pens out of wood blanks use super glue as a finish. A few guys over at rodbuilding.org were making wooden reel seats for fly rods using that finish as well. When its sanded down to a polish it looks great, just a lot of work and you need a lathe/power wrapper. I wrapped an entire blank with thread then did the super glue process as my rod coating before wrapping my guides. Gave the rod away and I wish to this day that I hadn't, would have liked to see how the finish held up. I never fished it but I'm guessing it would have cracked when flexed, it was more of a see if I can thing.
Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: JasonGotaProblem on February 21, 2021, 03:08:55 PM
My build is getting punted down the road to likely next weekend. I'm not satisfied with the guide layout using the kit I bought so I ordered more. If I'm gonna do this I'm gonna do the best job I can possibly do, even knowing that being my first build it'll probably still suck. But dang it if I cant confidently say that I gave it my best shot im not even gonna try.

So this will require some patience. That's ok. I've got other rods to fish this week. I can at least attach the seat, cork, and tip while I wait.

It's supposedly a 6-12# blank. So doing a 3# deadlift with the weight attached to the tip is a fair way to test the blank before I invest my time in it, right? Thoughts?
Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: Newell Nut on February 21, 2021, 05:59:20 PM
Do not do that test weight until after the rod is built. Doing it as you stated may break your rod.

Dwight
Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: Rivverrat on February 21, 2021, 06:06:13 PM
Quote from: Jeri on February 21, 2021, 05:50:01 AM
Just imagine what it was like for those starting before the internet, web, youtube, etc............ :(

.... Get stuck in, make mistakes, learn to be prepared to undo work, and be self critical; it is the only way forward.


    Wise words that apply well to most any ones life ... Jeff
Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: JasonGotaProblem on February 21, 2021, 09:13:42 PM
How should I more safely test it then? I just don't wanna dedicate the time to building it if there's some structural shortcoming that makes it break on the first big fish.
Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: Rivverrat on February 21, 2021, 09:20:16 PM
Quote from: JasonGotaPenn on February 21, 2021, 09:13:42 PM
How should I more safely test it then? I just don't wanna dedicate the time to building it if there's some structural shortcoming that makes it break on the first big fish.

  You can bend most any rod or blank & listen. You should be able to bend a bare blank through out its range & hear nothing but silence. Any creaking or popping noise or really any noise, makes the blank in my opinion suspect & questionable to build on... Jeff
Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: jurelometer on February 22, 2021, 12:12:17 AM
Quote from: Rivverrat on February 21, 2021, 09:20:16 PM
Quote from: JasonGotaPenn on February 21, 2021, 09:13:42 PM
How should I more safely test it then? I just don't wanna dedicate the time to building it if there's some structural shortcoming that makes it break on the first big fish.

  You can bend most any rod or blank & listen. You should be able to bend a bare blank through out its range & hear nothing but silence. Any creaking or popping noise or really any noise, makes the blank in my opinion suspect & questionable to build on... Jeff

A rod or blank is more likely to break if it starts to bend back towards itself.  Any bend past 90 degrees  increasingly concentrates the load toward the apex of the tightening curve near the tip without gaining any improvement  in casting or lifting capacity.

Rather than trying to lift a specific amount of weight, you should test to find out how much force it takes to deflect the rod to 90 degrees when supported at the reel seat.     

If you just try to lift a weight off the floor, bend the rod into a U and and bust it,  you most likely chose too heavy a weight for the blank, and wasted a good blank.

The barbel lifting test might be useful for testing something like a tuna rail rod.  For a light rod, a better test of durability is how far past 90 you can go (and repeat) without breaking, but this is a destructive test.  Just about everybody ends up high sticking now and then.  If I was buying a blank in a shop, I would causally ask how far the blank can safely be bent and ask for a demo (while standing at a safe distance  :) ).

Most of us believe that if you mount guides on a progressive action blank, it will allow the tip to bend out of the way, and better support the load along the stronger butt section.   I have not found a scientific explanation for why this would be true, but have seen how guide placement affects rod loading capability at a given deflection angle, so I am among the believers for now.

I haven't broken an unwrapped blank doing a 90 degree deflection test, but I just do a couple rods per year.   How far you can safely go past 90 on a wrapped or unwrapped blank is a function of the individual blank design and construction.  Some high end blanks can be on the fragile side.   Thin walked blanks oval and collapse more easily, but are lighter and often have a crisper action.  Durability vs.  performance is often a tradeoff. My fancier old "high modulus" graphite  fly rods cause me to break into a sweat at 91 degrees, but I have an Ugly Stik conventional that I would happily give a full U bend after using the tip to stop a ceiling fan.

-J
Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: steelfish on February 22, 2021, 01:20:26 AM
Quote from: JasonGotaPenn on February 21, 2021, 09:13:42 PM
How should I more safely test it then? I just don't wanna dedicate the time to building it if there's some structural shortcoming that makes it break on the first big fish.

Jason, I have built many rods and everytime I get that same sensation on how to know if the rod have or not an structural damage and will break on the 1st or 2nd good fish but well, there are some "light" tests as our guy Jurelometer just said, please read this thread were I post that I broke my 1st blank doing those same kind of "destructive tests" LOL, I got a lot of good tips and recomendations from the more seasoned rodbuilders here, so it worth to grab a cup of coffee and read the entire thread.

https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=32120.0

What I do know is the install the grips and reelseat on the blank and install the guides on the blank with masking tape and perform some light tests on light rods, the more hight count on graphite the less weight to use on you "destructive test" or static test, IM6 graphite is less prone to break and composite rods have lot of glass on the tip so, they seems to pass those static test with no problem, on S-Glass or E-Glass or solid glass blanks you can do your lift or static test between the line test on the blank you will never break it.

I have a chinesse telescopic rod that looks and feels pretty cheap which has the butt diameter and blank length similar to an inshore rod, that telescopic rod could lift 10# with no problem I was surprised, I though it was going to break with 3#, then I used 5# and lifted that easily I actually bounced that weight 3 times, finally use 10# and I think that the max of the rod becuase it actually lifted that but the rod was in a comple U-from, while a no-name swimbait blank I bought got broken trying to lift 8#, maybe If I had kept the angle of the tip at no more than 90* on that swimbait rod (maybe using a ladder) pretty sure it didnt have broken, and just to test that theory I will build a fishing rod on the same blank (I bought two similar swimbait blanks they were on special price) and fish it like hell trying to break it actually fishing with it, I will be happy to break it fighting a fish without going crazy like trying to bounce a Yellowtail or a big heavy spanish mack to the boat.
Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: Midway Tommy on February 22, 2021, 05:08:52 AM
Quote from: oldmanjoe on February 21, 2021, 06:23:43 AM
??? ???      I think most of us here lived the time before internet  8)           That`s what grand pa`s and uncles were for , always had something to teach yer ....
     I still have the text books that were written in the 30s - 50s  , learned the basic .    Today it is just embellishing the basics  ::)

There was no internet when I did my first builds. I bought a couple of complete kits from Cabela's. The kits had instructional books included. I also bought a couple separate G Loomis blanks, handles, Fuji SIC guides, etc. and dove in. I learned pretty quickly that I didn't like double footed spinning guides, Hardloy rings, 5 minute fast set epoxy on handles & Cabela's two part rod finish. I didn't have a drying motor so there was a lot of manual rotating after guide finish, then shaving, sanding & additional coats of finish. I gave one rod to my dad & he uses it a lot. I still use the others regularly. I'd rewrap the two with Hardloys if they weren't double foots. That combination is too dang bulky & heavy for my liking.

Moral of the story, I guess, is pay attention to things you like & don't like on your first couple of builds and use some common sense about how to do things a little better the next time. For me, the most important thing I learned on the first couple was invest a few bucks in a slow rotation drying motor. I think my first motor was $10 and I made the stands myself. It made all the difference in the world in the looks of my next builds. I used it later to cleanup the look of the first few builds. They look pretty darn good now.       
Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: oc1 on February 22, 2021, 05:13:52 AM
I'm used to building long light rods; either fly or salmon/steelhead blanks.  I lay the blank on the floor, wedge the last 16" of the butt section between two heavy chair legs and tie a string to the tip.  Then, pull the string at a 90 degree angle to the butt.  The tip section will point to 90 degrees with little load.  As the string is pulled the portion pointing 90* becomes longer and the straight part of the butt section becomes shorter.  It is not parabolic.  I stop when there is noticeable flex at the fulcrum (16" from the butt where the reel will be mounted).  A scale tied to the string will only be registering about three to four pounds with a 10 foot rod rated 6 wt fly or 3/8 ounce maximum lure weight salmon/steelhead.

With the string tied off I lay out a progressive guide spacing that pleases my eye and somewhat limits line rubbing on the blank.  It's usually only six or seven guides so the line will rub on the blank.  It's optimized more to casting and light weight rather than fighting a fish.
Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: Rivverrat on February 22, 2021, 06:07:38 AM
    I'm not cutting a new path here. I believe locating & building on the spine is the best way to go about things. That said, I have two rods that are built opposite the spine. One was the first rod build I did it is a St.Croix Classic Cat 8' S glass / SC11 Graphite blank rated 15 -60 / 1-8 oz. At the time I didn't know any better. Rod gets used in some fashion several times through out any given week & is well over 10 years old.

 The other rod a 8' UC Challenger Elite that I intentionally wrapped opposite the spine. I forgot to mention this yesterday.  A few fellas here witnessed me during our zoom call pluck 10, 15 & 20 lbs. off the floor with it. This rod has pulled 25 lbs. off of the floor.  I bounced the rod with 20 lbs in the air. I have done this numerous times ( to many times to count ) showing others the abuse these rods are capable of handling.

If you dont know, lifting weight from the floor is entirely a different level of stress on a rod than fighting a fish thas out in front of you. This is why there are specific rod blanks for doing such things. This rod isnt one of them.

   The rod is acid wrapped with 7 single foot guides below the tip. This rod has brought to bank & boat many fish over 50 lbs... Jeff
Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: JasonGotaProblem on February 22, 2021, 03:56:33 PM
This has been a great thread. Even though this is my first real build I don't feel like I'm going in completely blind because of all that I've read here. You all have helped me tremendously.

And Alex, your thread may not have hit your goal of rivaling the 'luck' thread for post count, it may rival for word count. That was a very information-dense thread. I enjoyed it the first time I read it (as it happened, in fact I posted twice in there while that thread was built) at that point it was merely a curiosity, as rod building didn't seem like it was anywhere on the radar at the time, now on the second pass I realize there's solid gold info in there.
Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: steelfish on February 22, 2021, 07:14:25 PM
Quote from: JasonGotaPenn on February 22, 2021, 03:56:33 PM
............now on the second pass I realize there's solid gold info in there.

that had happened to me many times with different threads on this forum.
Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: alantani on February 22, 2021, 07:40:59 PM
stickied!!!!!
Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: steelfish on February 22, 2021, 08:42:27 PM
Quote from: Rivverrat on February 22, 2021, 06:07:38 AM
    The rod is acid wrapped with 7 single foot guides below the tip. This rod has brought to bank & boat many fish over 50 lbs... Jeff

I would like to see a pic of that rod, I was into thinking that all saltwater rod MUST have double feet guides even light inshore rods, Im about to build a light inshore rod with a blank of an un-know brand (yep, the same that I broke on a extreme static test) and THIS time I would like to build it with single foot guides in all the running guides at the bottom and build it on Acid wrap, just like you said it.
Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: JasonGotaProblem on February 22, 2021, 08:51:45 PM
Quote from: steelfish on February 22, 2021, 08:42:27 PM
Quote from: Rivverrat on February 22, 2021, 06:07:38 AM
    The rod is acid wrapped with 7 single foot guides below the tip. This rod has brought to bank & boat many fish over 50 lbs... Jeff

I would like to see a pic of that rod, I was into thinking that all saltwater rod MUST have double feet guides even light inshore rods, Im about to build a light inshore rod with a blank of an un-know brand (yep, the same that I broke on a extreme static test) and THIS time I would like to build it with single foot guides in all the running guides at the bottom and build it on Acid wrap, just like you said it.
Man I've been considering taking all my rods with double foot guides and swapping for single foot, with the exception of the lowest/largest as that's the one that sees the most abuse-potential from non-fish things (railings, etc). I'm not convinced a double foot guide is needed for anything but the heaviest fish unless the rod sees a lot of non fishing abuse. Just my opinion. To my understanding, double footers rob power from the blank.

Also! First stickied thread! Woohoo!
Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: jurelometer on February 22, 2021, 09:47:14 PM
There are some newer single foot frames with wider notched feet. These  allow  you to  run  a very small ring size wiih heavier loads than before.  In turn,  this makes it possible to run single foot guides on larger rods.

The downside for single foot guides includes:

1.  Load on the  guides has a lever effect that can work the guides loose over time.  This can be mitigated somewhat by adding more guides, positioning more carefully, etc.

2.  More susceptible to slack line wrapping tangles around the guides, especially with braid.

3.  More susceptible to pull out from trying to pass a knot or a tangle.

4.  More snaggy/grabby.  Single foot guides  tangle more easily with other rods and the miscellaneous gear that ends up strewn about on a small boat on a hot bite.

5. More easily damaged.  You can accidentally step on a double foot guide and might not break anything.  Double foot guides also shield the ceramic rings from  impacts better.

The advantage of single foot guides is a bit less weight and blank dampening (and half the time wrapping guide feet  :) ).  The  lighter and bendier the rod, the more that this might make a useful difference.  Most people could benefit more by simply going easy on the epoxy that is typical lathered on. 

Alex:  I  personally would not use single foot guides for a rod intended to be fished on  a panga.  Just too harsh an envitpronment.

This is not to say that single foot guides are always worse or that some of the negatives can be mitigated with a quality build, but rather that there is no free lunch.  You are  making a tradeoff. My personal bias is always toward durability.   YMMV.

-J
Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: steelfish on February 22, 2021, 10:09:05 PM
Quote from: jurelometer on February 22, 2021, 09:47:14 PM
Alex:  I  personally would not use single foot guides for a rod intended to be fished on  a panga.  Just too harsh an envitpronment.
-J

yep, Panga environment is totally different to ride on a nice sporty fishing boat, actually on saltwater when you catch a nice fish you normally forget about your gear and just put the rod aside without worries and pay attention on the fish, that doesnt sound as nice future for a light single foot wrapped rod I know, well, thanks for remained me that compa J.

I actually re-wrapped a 7ft surf spinning rod for bait fishing or light cast lures and used double feet guides with Ti frame to keep it on the light weight side but with the protection of the double foot with thick wire frame and my main reason was the intended use for that rod was going be on a Panga boat 90% of the time.




Quote from: jurelometer on February 22, 2021, 09:47:14 PM
... My personal bias is always toward durability.   YMMV.
-J

I dont blame you, when I "introduced" 5 years ago (nobody have seen them before) to local charter captains the TW twisted guides from PacBay and they used them for some time I got many re-wrapping jobs on orders to change the factory regular welded wire guides for those TW twisted guides, yep, because they hold better the harsh treatment of customers on the harsh environment of the Panga.

Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: Rivverrat on February 22, 2021, 10:09:13 PM
Quote from: jurelometer on February 22, 2021, 09:47:14 PM

.... Alex:  I  personally would not use single foot guides for a rod intended to be fished on  a panga.  Just too harsh an environment.

This is not to say that single foot guides are always worse or that some of the negatives can be mitigated with a quality build, but rather that there is no free lunch.  You are  making a tradeoff. My personal bias is always toward durability.   YMMV.

-J


   Agreed, single foot guides are absolutely not the answer for every rod.  I was not in any way putting this out as The Way to do things. Which I hoped would be obvious. I would be reluctant to wrap a fast taper rod like a Challenger Platinum or TileFish with single foot guides.

Single foot guides come into play for a conventional reel & rod, when the ultimate in lite weight & best action & distance is what's wanted. They are not what one would use when those around
you have a belly full of beer or bourbon.

With all this said I am working with a couple of the industries insiders to help develop a better single foot guide. My thoughts are the plusses of using a single foot guide with an acid wrapped conventional rod are to many to ignore. We aint there yet... Jeff
Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: jurelometer on February 22, 2021, 10:11:49 PM
Quote from: steelfish on February 22, 2021, 01:20:26 AM
Quote from: JasonGotaPenn on February 21, 2021, 09:13:42 PM
How should I more safely test it then? I just don't wanna dedicate the time to building it if there's some structural shortcoming that makes it break on the first big fish.

[...] please read this thread were I post that I broke my 1st blank doing those same kind of "destructive tests" LOL, I got a lot of good tips and recomendations from the more seasoned rodbuilders here, so it worth to grab a cup of coffee and read the entire thread.

https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=32120.0


While we are at it, here are two other threads that go deep into

Guide placement tchniques: https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=30033.0 (https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=30033.0)

Guide selection: https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=30337.0 (https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=30337.0)

Long reads, but I think both are worthwhile, as many of the common questions are discussed. We are  lucky to have a blend of skilled custom builders and home builders that make rods for a wide variety of fisheries.

-J
Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: thrasher on February 22, 2021, 10:20:04 PM
Quote3.  More susceptible to pull out from trying to pass a knot or a tangle.
Did those guides have a fordham lock wrap?

Quote5. More easily damaged.  You can accidentally step on a double foot guide and might not break anything.  Double foot guides also shield the ceramic rings from  impacts better.
I have only lost ceramic inserts on double feet guides, the single foot guides I have been able to bend back into shape but the insert was intact. I could be lucky here though
Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: Rivverrat on February 22, 2021, 10:45:23 PM
 

     @thrasher,  I did not use any locking wrap. I dont believe it's needed. If one does not prep the guide foot properly or pack & wrap well then a benefit can be seen. I will admit the risk of a guide popping is of course higher than using a double foot.

   Great observation on the insert staying in place when guide is bent or abused, when considering single vs double footed guides. A single foot will in some cases maintain the ring insert much better when abused... Jeff
Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: thrasher on February 22, 2021, 11:01:58 PM
Jeff, I don't use locking wraps on single foots guides either mainly because I do a full glass and at least two coats(I'm not worried about added weight to the rod  ;D) I actually love the idea of a acid wrap with SFG's on the bottom like Alex suggested, especially on a light weight rod!


Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: jurelometer on February 22, 2021, 11:27:22 PM
Quote from: Rivverrat on February 22, 2021, 10:09:13 PM
Quote from: jurelometer on February 22, 2021, 09:47:14 PM

.... Alex:  I  personally would not use single foot guides for a rod intended to be fished on  a panga.  Just too harsh an environment.

This is not to say that single foot guides are always worse or that some of the negatives can be mitigated with a quality build, but rather that there is no free lunch.  You are  making a tradeoff. My personal bias is always toward durability.   YMMV.

-J


   Agreed, single foot guides are absolutely not the answer for every rod.  I was not in any way putting this out as The Way to do things. Which I hoped would be obvious. I would be reluctant to wrap a fast taper rod like a Challenger Platinum or TileFish with single foot guides.

Single foot guides come into play for a conventional reel rod, when the ultimate in lite weight & best action is what's wanted. They are not what one would use when those around you have a belly full of beer or bourbon... Jeff

Not  the booze.  Panga fishing is rough on gear.  Open water, open boat, lots of pounding,banging and crashing.  Plus in some places they are still launching an and landing on the beach.  I personally prefer not to mix alcohol with fishing.

And sorry, I did not mean to infer that you were over-advocating single footers.    Just that I see as they become more popular, more fishermen are looking for them without being aware of the tradeoffs.

Quote from: Rivverrat on February 22, 2021, 10:45:23 PM
 

     @thrasher,  I did not use any locking wrap. I dont believe it's needed. If one does not prep the guide foot properly or pack & wrap well then a benefit can be seen. I will admit the risk of a guide popping is of course higher than using a double foot.

   Great observation on the insert staying in place when guide is bent or abused, when considering single vs double footed guides. A single foot will in some cases maintain the ring insert much better when abused... Jeff

Hmmm,   I could see that.   With  a single foot, the  frame legs flex, but with a double foot,  the top half of the ring flexes and the bottom half doesn't, placing the load on the insert.  Modern inserts don't pop out much any more without breaking first, but this doesn't change the issue.  The larger the ring, the more likely this is to happen.    A forged, one piece, two foot  frame  modern running guide (small ring diameter) is not going to flex at all, so I would still rather step on one of these than a single footer, but you both have convinced me that it is not as cut-and-dry as I originally presented it.

-J
Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: Rivverrat on February 22, 2021, 11:33:52 PM
 
   J. your fine. I was agreeing with you regarding your reply to Alex.  The beer & bourbon was just another scenario among many that single foot guides just might not be the best choice... Jeff
Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: JasonGotaProblem on February 23, 2021, 12:50:30 AM
I'm far from the most experienced here but I've also only ever lost rings on double footers. But then my sample size is not large enough to draw any conclusions. In fact I just popped one on a st croix last week, but they're sending me a whole new rod so thats ok.

It seems many of you have confirmed my position that most the reasons for double footers are not based on the actual fighting of fish but other threats. But then most my fishing is done from land with nobody else around, so my tastes are less durability driven.

Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: steelfish on February 23, 2021, 12:58:41 AM
Quote from: jurelometer on February 22, 2021, 11:27:22 PM

.... Alex:  I  personally would not use single foot guides for a rod intended to be fished on  a panga.  Just too harsh an environment.

And sorry, I did not mean to infer that you were over-advocating single footers.    Just that I see as they become more popular, more fishermen are looking for them without being aware of the tradeoffs.
........so I would still rather step on one of these than a single footer, but you both have convinced me that it is not as cut-and-dry as I originally presented it.
-J

dont worry J, my idea of using single foot on an inshore casting reel is mainly because I saw some single foot guides recently that have a thick frame and are pretty short in height, pretty different scenario from those regular thin frame and flexible single foot guides that I saw on many freshwater before, Im talking about K guides from Fuji, stripper guide would be a regular K model double foot guide as well as the next 2 guides for the transition to the bottom because its were most of the force is applied from moving the guide from the top to the bottom of the blank and actually will hold any hit better, then Install all the running guides of same model KT single foot, actually since I can build and repair my own rods I less worried of having a guide broken by any accident on the boat  ;D 8)
I need to say that If I ended up doing it that way its not because of saving weight or anything like that but just for the kicks, that idea started after I finished to build the rod for Gfish 4 guides from the tip are single foot but I needed some lighter guides there because the blank was pretty thin and light in the last 3rd of the blank, so I installed some Fuji L guides, which are also pretty short in height and the frame is not that thin, the rest are double foot LN fuji guides, then I had one of those famous "what if" moment but I try to keep any "what if" idea to my own rods LOL.


Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: steelfish on February 23, 2021, 01:07:47 AM
Quote from: JasonGotaPenn on February 23, 2021, 12:50:30 AM
I'm far from the most experienced here but I've also only ever lost rings on double footers. But then my sample size is not large enough to draw any conclusions. In fact I just popped one on a st croix last week, but they're sending me a whole new rod so thats ok.

St croix did good on sending you a whole new rod just because you popped a ceramich on a guide, that rod is trashed! 100% totall lost as an insured company would said, why dont you send me that rod so I can use it to test some paints , wraps, epoxies, etc
Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: JasonGotaProblem on February 23, 2021, 01:10:45 AM
Quote from: steelfish on February 23, 2021, 01:07:47 AM
Quote from: JasonGotaPenn on February 23, 2021, 12:50:30 AM
I'm far from the most experienced here but I've also only ever lost rings on double footers. But then my sample size is not large enough to draw any conclusions. In fact I just popped one on a st croix last week, but they're sending me a whole new rod so thats ok.

St croix did good on sending you a whole new rod just because you popped a ceramich on a guide, that rod is trashed! 100% totall lost as an insured company would said, why dont you send me that rod so I can use it to test some paints , wraps, epoxies, etc
I totally would but a coworker already called it. In order to send a new one they made me break the old one.
Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: Jeri on February 23, 2021, 01:37:20 AM
Several aspects have come from out move towards greater use of single leg guides, even though our main work is in long surf rods, our fishing environment is quite harsh on tackle as rods are mounted on the front of 4x4 vehicles and driven at speed over desert and beaches, with rods often crashing into each other.

First big issue was the size of the stripper single leg, and the speeds of line in the casts, we found that we could come down a size with a two leg stripper guide, when compared to a single leg stripper. This has been put down to the potential for frame flex during casting, and the loads on a single leg stripper guide. Especially with Fuji KL guides, because we needed the height of the guide for best performance.

Insert problems have been near zero, when compared to 2 leg guides in the same situation, so no drawback from their use due to damage. The shorter Fuji KT guides are very robust.

More because of overall performance, we have now adopted a strategy of using a hybrid combination of guides on nearly all our client rods, both 2 leg and single leg. The single legs introduce the most performance gain over the top half of the rod, while 2 leg guides allow us to keep guide sizes down to optimum at the lower section of the rod. That said we are looking to get guide sizes down to an absolute minimum without loss of performance (casting distance). On a personal test rod, I have been using size 16 as the stripper guide, followed by size 10 & 8 2 leg guides, then a series of 3 size 8 single leg guides, followed by 3 size 6 single leg guides. The rod casts impressively, and never a single issue with guides pulling out, inserts cracking or any of the other drawbacks mentioned.

If I were spiral wrapping rods, I would still have no issue with using single leg guides over any of the transition zone. Nor would I have reservations about using single leg guides on a small boat situation, for years ago I built myself a couple of travel rods for use in Ski boats, where we launched from the beach through the surf. On those rods I used the single leg Fuji guides with the oval insert, old fashioned now, but I still have those rods in prime condition, though they haven't been used for a few years, it was near 20 years ago that we built them, and they performed without problems in that fishing environment, even on game species like Sailfish and Marlin.
Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: steelfish on February 23, 2021, 01:55:35 AM
Quote from: Jeri on February 23, 2021, 01:37:20 AM
.........we have now adopted a strategy of using a hybrid combination of guides on nearly all our client rods, both 2 leg and single leg. The single legs introduce the most performance gain over the top half of the rod, while 2 leg guides allow us to keep guide sizes down to optimum at the lower section of the rod............................... On a personal test rod, I have been using size 16 as the stripper guide, followed by size 10 & 8 2 leg guides, then a series of 3 size 8 single leg guides, followed by 3 size 6 single leg guides. The rod casts impressively, and never a single issue with guides pulling out, inserts cracking or any of the other drawbacks mentioned.


pretty cool, that what I was saying and try to accomplish maybe not because of the same reasons but pretty cool its been already done and tested with good results
Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: Jeri on February 23, 2021, 06:41:38 AM
Quote from: steelfish on February 23, 2021, 01:55:35 AM
Quote from: Jeri on February 23, 2021, 01:37:20 AM
.........we have now adopted a strategy of using a hybrid combination of guides on nearly all our client rods, both 2 leg and single leg. The single legs introduce the most performance gain over the top half of the rod, while 2 leg guides allow us to keep guide sizes down to optimum at the lower section of the rod............................... On a personal test rod, I have been using size 16 as the stripper guide, followed by size 10 & 8 2 leg guides, then a series of 3 size 8 single leg guides, followed by 3 size 6 single leg guides. The rod casts impressively, and never a single issue with guides pulling out, inserts cracking or any of the other drawbacks mentioned.


pretty cool, that what I was saying and try to accomplish maybe not because of the same reasons but pretty cool its been already done and tested with good results

I will be honest and say that when we first embarked on this line of development, and looking at the rod as it came out of the dryer, I was certainly suspicious of the fact that the 1mm diameter leader knot was going to rip all those little guides off..............  >:(

But, after the first cast went away with hardly any sound at all, and the rod and guides were intact, I soon started to have faith in the scheme, and not looked back since; though it does make me think whether there would be any tangible benefit to going even smaller.
Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: oc1 on February 23, 2021, 07:26:38 AM
I only use single foot.  The biggest disadvantage is more frequent tip wraps. Maybe that's not the right term, but I mean when slack line wraps around the rod and gets caught on the guides.  The biggest advantage is light weight.  PacBay single foot with stainless inserts size 3 to 10 cost and weigh almost nothing.  Never had one jerked off the rod or broken, but have had to bend several back upright after getting smashed.
Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: JasonGotaProblem on February 23, 2021, 01:57:47 PM
I've done a bit of torture testing. Very low tech approach. Pretty much just held by tip and butt and bent past 90. My spring scale is of the fish weighing variety not one that marks the max force achieved so I didn't really get to quantify it. But I did go to about 100° with no signs of trouble. No sounds, etc. Felt like it could go further but I didnt want this to be a destructive test.

I feel satisfied that I can land some fish on it. We'll see.
Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: JasonGotaProblem on February 23, 2021, 05:57:12 PM
Forgive me for going back on topic but I found myself wondering something. Given that guides end up getting replaced from time to time, would super good adhesion between the wrap epoxy and the blank be less than ideal? I mean of course you want it to stay in place, but you'd likely eventually wanna remove it safely, right?

Part of this line of thinking comes from frequently seeing it repeated that if you try to relocate guides on a factory rod, its hard to get it to look good after that. And I found myself wondering why that is, and if there's a better approach. and the above is a question that fell outta that rabbit hole i went down.
Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: Rivverrat on February 23, 2021, 06:07:26 PM
Quote from: JasonGotaPenn on February 23, 2021, 05:57:12 PM

.... Part of this line of thinking comes from frequently seeing it repeated that if you try to relocate guides on a factory rod, its hard to get it to look good after that. ...


I have heard the same & it's simply not true. Unless skills aren't up to the task... Jeff 
Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: oldmanjoe on February 23, 2021, 06:44:28 PM
The Dutch Uncle in me , Suggested to get a 10-15 dollar pole to get all the mistakes out of the way for a good stick .
  And your little shadow would be happy with a daddy made stick .     :P
Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: Midway Tommy on February 23, 2021, 06:50:58 PM
Finish fade is usually biggest issue, especially if the rod spends a lot of time in the sun.
Title: Re: Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?
Post by: Breadfan on July 07, 2021, 04:52:42 PM
Quote from: Rivverrat on February 23, 2021, 06:07:26 PM
Quote from: JasonGotaPenn on February 23, 2021, 05:57:12 PM

.... Part of this line of thinking comes from frequently seeing it repeated that if you try to relocate guides on a factory rod, its hard to get it to look good after that. ...


I have heard the same & it's simply not true. Unless skills aren't up to the task... Jeff 

What is your secret on removing guides without marring the finish if I may ask? I'm one of those who can do an OK job but I'm far from perfect at it.