Reel Repair by Alan Tani

Fishing => Fishing Tips and Techniques => Topic started by: JasonGotaProblem on May 26, 2021, 07:33:38 PM

Title: Keeping live bait alive
Post by: JasonGotaProblem on May 26, 2021, 07:33:38 PM
My record for the longest I've kept live shrimp going, is 19 days after purchase.

When I'm fishing if I bought way more bait than I ended up using, I keep it for the next trip. I bought an aquarium aerator for $8 and I bring empty water jugs when I go fishing. I'll refresh the water in the bait bucket, and fill 1-3 gal of sea water for the shrimp. Also during the winter this is unnecessary but in FL summer I gotta worry about keeping water temp down. So I have a 20oz water bottle that I freeze overnight and put in the bucket in the morning, and back in the freezer in the evening.

Dead shrimp foul up the water ahead of schedule, so you gotta check every day and pull out the dead ones. When the water gets cloudy, dump it out and put in new water from the jugs.

I've had a lot of success with the above.
Title: Re: Keeping live bait alive
Post by: philaroman on May 26, 2021, 08:15:18 PM
if you have a pass-out drunk for a fishin'buddy/neighbor,
bloodworms/leeches can live much longer  :o
Title: Re: Keeping live bait alive
Post by: wailua boy on May 26, 2021, 10:37:10 PM
Even better throw them in a cycled aquarium and they can survive for a very long time
Title: Re: Keeping live bait alive
Post by: JasonGotaProblem on May 26, 2021, 11:01:18 PM
Quote from: wailua boy on May 26, 2021, 10:37:10 PM
Even better throw them in a cycled aquarium and they can survive for a very long time
Absolutely. I just don't have room for that... Yet.
Title: Re: Keeping live bait alive
Post by: Decker on May 27, 2021, 12:24:34 PM
I heard online that you can dump hydrogen peroxide into a minnow bucket to oxygenate the water.  Anyone ever done that?
Title: Re: Keeping live bait alive
Post by: Wompus Cat on May 27, 2021, 01:24:37 PM
I was just looking into that the other day and found

THIS LINK (https://www.walleyecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178326)

Lots of yes's and lots of No's BUT a Mich study says YES .
Title: Re: Keeping live bait alive
Post by: JasonGotaProblem on May 27, 2021, 03:40:51 PM
Quote from: Wompus Cat on May 27, 2021, 01:24:37 PM
I was just looking into that the other day and found

THIS LINK (https://www.walleyecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178326)

Lots of yes's and lots of No's BUT a Mich study says YES .

Consider me intrigued. I love a good controversy.

I swear I've heard of something similar being done - to a lake, I think - because of low oxygen levels. Could be a fake memory though.

For those who don't like calculating ratios, 1oz per 3 gal is equivalent to 1 tbsp per gallon.
Title: Re: Keeping live bait alive
Post by: oc1 on May 27, 2021, 07:17:10 PM
There is this:
https://www.amazon.com/Oxygen-Tablets-Fish-Tank-Releasing/dp/B0888PBQVF#:~:text=%E2%99%A5Features%3A%E2%99%A5-,Oxygen%20in%20tablet%20form%2C%20to%20increase%20the%20oxygen%20content%20of,warmer%20times%20of%20the%20year. (https://www.amazon.com/Oxygen-Tablets-Fish-Tank-Releasing/dp/B0888PBQVF#:~:text=%E2%99%A5Features%3A%E2%99%A5-,Oxygen%20in%20tablet%20form%2C%20to%20increase%20the%20oxygen%20content%20of,warmer%20times%20of%20the%20year.)

But, good old fashion gas exchange through aeration is better.  Carbon dioxide is a weak acid and the pH will fall if you do not drive off the carbon dioxide as you add oxygen.

Keeping the water very shallow (without reducing volume) also helps increase gas exchange.
Title: Re: Keeping live bait alive
Post by: Brewcrafter on May 28, 2021, 05:38:16 AM
I'm with Steve on this - the easiest/cheapest way to increase O2 in water is agitation, whether that means recirculating water "fountain style" or incorporating a cheap aquarium air stone and pump.  The challenges I see with the Hydrogen Peroxide trick are a few:  1.  Expense - dumping a pitcher full of fresh water from a height above the bait tank creating agitation costs nothing but time, and the water you are introducing should already have dissolved O2 in it, on top of O2 that gets absorbed through agitation.  Same with a simple pump/stone setup.  2.  Assuming that adding H2O2 into your bank tank allows the O2 to break its bonds and go into solution in the water (basically creating Oxygen and Water) those extra H ions have to go somewhere, and they are pretty reactive.  Everyone here probably has heard of pH and understand in basic terms it is a scale of a solutions basic (high) or acidic (low) pH.  pH translates into "Power of Hydrogen", and while you are theoretically releasing a bunch of O2 into solution when you dump the H2O2 into your tank; all of that H needs to go somewhere and react with something.  And I am guessing that it will probably drop the pH of the tank further into the acidic range, possibly outside of optimum conditions for the bait (think "acid rain" - elevated levels of hydrogen ions in solution).
BUT!  All of this has given my pause to think, and there is nothing like a good experiment with data to help grow knowledge.  Now, I have never dumped H2O2 in my livewell, but, while I don't get into the lab as often as I once did (thanks Covid, keeping me chained to the computer!) I do happen to have access to a pretty damn fine pH Meter (no big deal) AND a pretty doggone good DO meter (that's a big deal in my professional world!).  Now all I need to do is put together a simple test/measure protocol and (the hard part) figure out when I can actually get to the lab and hijack the equipment outside of our normal QA chores.  More to follow! - john
Title: Re: Keeping live bait alive
Post by: Wompus Cat on May 28, 2021, 06:05:52 AM
An aerator or agitation of course should be used on your Prized Koi Pond with 5 or 600 Dollar 15" Imported fishes in it but for 8 bucks worth of Crappie Minnows a Tablespoon of Hydrogen Peroxide is worth a try besides it might make the Brunettes  in the Bunch turn Blonde and be more attractive to the Fish you are trying to Hook .
Title: Re: Keeping live bait alive
Post by: Swami805 on May 28, 2021, 01:44:06 PM
Anything to break the surface tension of the water will help, wider shallower is better than deep and narrow since more surface for gas exchange.  Also your bait produces waste which will get toxic over time, partial water changes will keep them alive longer.
I did hydroponic growing for awhile and added H2O2 to the mix, seemed to help somewhat to keep the plants healthy
Title: Re: Keeping live bait alive
Post by: JasonGotaProblem on May 28, 2021, 01:51:49 PM
Quote from: Wompus Cat on May 28, 2021, 06:05:52 AM
besides it might make the Brunettes  in the Bunch turn Blonde and be more attractive to the Fish you are trying to Hook .
See, now we're getting somewhere.

Is surface-area-based gas exchange necessary with a bubbler? I would image that would be where O2 leaves the water.
Title: Re: Keeping live bait alive
Post by: philaroman on May 28, 2021, 02:14:34 PM
minnows' gills is where O2 leaves -- surface is O2 source, if no other
(that's why they "gulp" air on top when O2 is low)

w/ bubbler water column depth matters most
surface area where bubbles exit -- not so relevant (within functional range)
Title: Re: Keeping live bait alive
Post by: oc1 on May 28, 2021, 09:01:03 PM
Oxygen diffuses into water through the surface.  In still water conditions, a microlayer of water that is saturated with oxygen develops on the surface.  Once the surface layer is saturated with oxygen, no more oxygen can diffuse into it.  Fish gulp at the surface when most oxygen has been depleted except for that surface microlayer.

The bubblers work in two ways.  First, there is oxygen transferred from the surface area of the bubble as they rise through the water.  A lot of fine bubbles work better than a few coarse bubbles because the fine bubbles have more surface area.

The second effect is the disturbance bubbles create.  Bubbles push water up to the surface so the microlayer with saturated oxygen is pulled down into the water column.  Typically, the mixing effect is more important than direct transfer of oxygen from the bubble as it rises.

Riding around in a car, water in the bait bucket will slosh keeping it well mixed and aerated.

Cold water can hold more oxygen than warm water.  Cold water also slows down the metabolism so the bait will use less oxygen and excrete less waste and carbon dioxide.  Bait will always last longer if they are kept cool.  Bubbling and sloshing can cool water to some extent through evaporative heat loss.

Title: Re: Keeping live bait alive
Post by: Benni3 on July 12, 2021, 06:40:56 AM
Here rock salt kicks the flavor and 5in bubble donut aerators work,,,,, ;) but if you take river water in a gallon jug iced it does the trick ,,,,,,,,, ;D
Title: Re: Keeping live bait alive
Post by: JasonGotaProblem on September 17, 2021, 06:38:48 PM
New personal record for freshwater bait, I have golden shiners from Sunday still going strong in a bucket in my garage. Just gotta change the water every day. But with FW that's easy i just use distilled.
Title: Re: Keeping live bait alive
Post by: handi2 on September 17, 2021, 07:08:38 PM
I fish the hot Florida waters too. You must keep something in the livewell for the shrimp to hold onto. Slow moving water is good too. Some have used an old potato sack to do this.

When I fished the bridges an old cooler with a homemade aerator works great. Now they make aerator kits for that.

Keith
Title: Re: Keeping live bait alive
Post by: oldmanjoe on September 17, 2021, 07:19:25 PM
Quote from: JasonGotaPenn on September 17, 2021, 06:38:48 PM
New personal record for freshwater bait, I have golden shiners from Sunday still going strong in a bucket in my garage. Just gotta change the water every day. But with FW that's easy i just use distilled.
??? ??? ???   Don`t you have 2 bait pens in your neighbor hood ?
Title: Re: Keeping live bait alive
Post by: JasonGotaProblem on September 21, 2021, 12:49:00 PM
Quote from: oldmanjoe on September 17, 2021, 07:19:25 PM
Quote from: JasonGotaPenn on September 17, 2021, 06:38:48 PM
New personal record for freshwater bait, I have golden shiners from Sunday still going strong in a bucket in my garage. Just gotta change the water every day. But with FW that's easy i just use distilled.
??? ??? ???   Don`t you have 2 bait pens in your neighbor hood ?
Not quite. Lot of gar in there, I haven't much in there thats smaller than a bass or bigger than a minnow. Plus there's overgrown grass and other aquatic plants from the shore to about 30-50' out. I lose 2/3rds of my hookups trying to get them past the grass line. Trying to net anything there is a fools errand.
Title: Re: Keeping live bait alive
Post by: philaroman on September 21, 2021, 01:19:04 PM
oh, put some sting/bite-proof pants on & wade out...  or, is it too cold  ???

...or, cheap float-tube (even inner tube) tethered to the bank, where the cooler is hidden in the shade   ;)
Title: Re: Keeping live bait alive
Post by: JasonGotaProblem on January 07, 2022, 04:29:10 PM
So new developments, I kept 7 golden shiners alive for 8 days in a bucket a bit smaller than a gallon. By changing the water (store bought distilled) every other day and feeding them betta fish food pellets.

I then upgraded my setup by getting a 5-10gal aquarium filter and hooked it up in my garage on a 5 gal bucket. So far the water is crystal clear and the fish i haven't used yet seem just fine on day 6.

These seem to be hardy lil fish. My record for shrimp is 14 days but the super cold weather at the time had helped with that. Maybe I'll beat that record with shiners.
Title: Re: Keeping live bait alive
Post by: Dominick on January 07, 2022, 04:42:02 PM
Quote from: JasonGotaPenn on January 07, 2022, 04:29:10 PM
So new developments, I kept 7 golden shiners alive for 8 days in a bucket a bit smaller than a gallon. By changing the water (store bought distilled) every other day and feeding them betta fish food pellets.

I then upgraded my setup by getting a 5-10gal aquarium filter and hooked it up in my garage on a 5 gal bucket. So far the water is crystal clear and the fish i haven't used yet seem just fine on day 6.

These seem to be hardy lil fish. My record for shrimp is 14 days but the super cold weather at the time had helped with that. Maybe I'll beat that record with shiners.

That seems pretty mean to use them for bait.  Keeping them that long and they are pets.   :D ;D  Dominick
Title: Re: Keeping live bait alive
Post by: thorhammer on January 07, 2022, 04:52:13 PM
Aeration is as much important to shiners as the fliter- dont have time to write up all my efforts on this, but it's fact- it both oxygenates and cools the water. Without getting too deep into aquarium science, consider getting a mother tank that you keep running- a plastic tote, cut off drum, whatever- and keep at least one critter it at all times. This keeps the nitrophagic bacteria going in the filter, which break down waste ammonia once the tank has cycled (there will be an ammonia spike around 15-20 days, then the bacteria will reach saturation in the filter bed and start to break down the ammonia, providing there arent too many baits or too much food).  If you use the bait then turn off everything, the bacteria will die off and you'll have to start all over. Consider a separate pump and spray bar / aerator head. In my neck of the woods, large shiner minnows are $35 per pound, and it's a 90 minute round trip, so i put a lot of energy into keeping them once I have them. I've kept them for as long as three months thusly, with minimal food. You can get an ammonia test kit at petsmart or wherever, which will help you with water changes (always a good idea) in a larger vessel.
Title: Re: Keeping live bait alive
Post by: thorhammer on January 07, 2022, 05:17:32 PM
You can also use a chemical like safestart to jumpstart the nitrosomonas and nitrobacter- will get them going in a day, OR use a water from the bait pens you talk about.
Title: Re: Keeping live bait alive
Post by: philaroman on January 07, 2022, 09:02:23 PM
Quote from: thorhammer on January 07, 2022, 04:52:13 PM
In my neck of the woods, large shiner minnows are $35 per pound, and it's a 90 minute round trip, so i put a lot of energy into keeping them once I have them.

instead of driving 90 min. to spend arm+leg+nut, find the right still/slow body of water in your area
and research the way Brits/Euros target Roach/Rudd:

I've targetted 6-9" shiners as panfish (finesse XUL bait/float -- tiny terminal tackle under a quill)
way more challenging than sunfishes, IMO & WAAAAAAAY more rewarding, if it's $35 for 3-5
good Spring morning (pre-dawn to 9AM) would easily yield 20+ "3-5 count" shiners,
along w/ bycatch of other cypriniformes that are also desirable as bait (chubs, fallfish, small suckers, etc.)
rare great morning was 50+ perfect soft-rayed bait (sunfish/cat/eel bycatch not counted / discarded)

the main "trick" is, culling via bait sellection -- NO MEAT!!!
veg./starch-based baits are completely ignored by dink predators like bass, perch, crappie
& noticeably less desirable to unwanted omnivores like sunnies & cats
if the carp show up, bait-collection numbers go down, but fun-factor goes up  ;)
Title: Re: Keeping live bait alive
Post by: thorhammer on January 07, 2022, 09:26:09 PM
Not really any of that around me unless the same driving distance. Netting shad is hit or miss and i have to go a ways for that too...all that's close are bream and perch, and you'll wait a dang long time for a striper bite around a shad school using them as bait. The schools in the open water are too deep and fast moving to net 25-50 feet. Back in the day they were in our cove and could be gotten dependably but thats long gone- the blue cats have proliferated to a degree that has major impacts on the shad. i didnt see but one one my end of the lake the first 25  years I lived here, then around 2000 or something a hatchery flooded and dumped them unto the Virginia river upstream. Now, they're everywhere and 50 lbs common. The WR came from here. Screwed the striper fshing, along with goll maggots in the 2000's an the electronics that are out now.
Title: Re: Keeping live bait alive
Post by: jurelometer on January 08, 2022, 03:11:32 AM
Quote from: Dominick on January 07, 2022, 04:42:02 PM
Quote from: JasonGotaPenn on January 07, 2022, 04:29:10 PM
So new developments, I kept 7 golden shiners alive for 8 days in a bucket a bit smaller than a gallon. By changing the water (store bought distilled) every other day and feeding them betta fish food pellets.

I then upgraded my setup by getting a 5-10gal aquarium filter and hooked it up in my garage on a 5 gal bucket. So far the water is crystal clear and the fish i haven't used yet seem just fine on day 6.

These seem to be hardy lil fish. My record for shrimp is 14 days but the super cold weather at the time had helped with that. Maybe I'll beat that record with shiners.

That seems pretty mean to use them for bait.  Keeping them that long and they are pets.   :D ;D  Dominick

I am with Dominick on this.   After 14 days you have to start naming them :)
Title: Re: Keeping live bait alive
Post by: JasonGotaProblem on January 08, 2022, 03:25:01 AM
Wow those prices if I'm reading them correctly are nuts. Down here there's 2 stores that have them. One doesn't differentiate size and they're $7/dozen and one that has 6"ers for $14/ dozen and larger for $17/dozen. And I thought that was high.

I considered settiong up a peoer aquarium but that's the issue. At some point they stop looking like bait and start looking like a Bob or Jimmy or something. Especially to my kid.
Title: Re: Keeping live bait alive
Post by: philaroman on January 08, 2022, 04:22:51 AM
nah, the longer they "enjoy" your [in]hospitality, the more obligation to attract a proper gamefish
otherwise, they all get the same name: Slacker Freeloadsky, aka Cut Bait
Title: Re: Keeping live bait alive
Post by: JasonGotaProblem on January 08, 2022, 03:00:37 PM
And the more I think about it, 2 weeks of free food and no predators doesn't sound so terrible compared to what their life is likely otherwise like.
Title: Re: Keeping live bait alive
Post by: Squidder Bidder on January 08, 2022, 04:30:06 PM
I had no idea live shiners were that expensive. At that price some investment in a setup might be in order. I know of Striper nuts who keep bare bones fish tanks for expensive/hard to get live baits (i.e. eels or spot). If you have the space you could probably get a used 55 gallon tank and stand with equipment on offerup or craigslist for a couple of bucks. You may want to add some new silicone at the joints. They paint one to three sides of the tank black (on the outside) to reduce stress on the baitfish.
Title: Re: Keeping live bait alive
Post by: Brewcrafter on January 08, 2022, 06:56:02 PM
Could a cattle tank be modified to make a good bait tank?  They seem inexpensive enough.  - john
Title: Re: Keeping live bait alive
Post by: oc1 on January 08, 2022, 07:40:12 PM
The metal cattle tanks work fine for freshwater.  Saltwater will eat them up.

Serch for "Tuff Stuff tanks".  They are heavy duty plactic that will last a lifetime and come in a variety of sizes from seven to several hundred of gallons.  Look for them at Tractor Supply or your local feed store.
Title: Re: Keeping live bait alive
Post by: JasonGotaProblem on January 08, 2022, 08:49:53 PM
Really I find myself wondering if I wanna make a modular setup I can fit in a uhaul, go get a few hundred dozen of them and make the 12 hr drive to NC. That's quite a margin to play with. I could sell them at half your normal cost and still make money.

My brain works in funny ways.
Title: Re: Keeping live bait alive
Post by: philaroman on January 08, 2022, 10:13:03 PM
cross State lines & w/out a vendor Lic.?
any potential customer might be/know a baitshop owner & dime you out in a heartbeat
the fines would eat your profits & then some  :(
Title: Re: Keeping live bait aliveall
Post by: handi2 on January 08, 2022, 10:23:20 PM
When i bridge fished all the time we used an old ice chest with a small bilge pump. We made the top crossbar out of PVC with holed drilled into it. Any small 12v battery will work. But we had access to fresh salt water. They now make that kit ready to use.

Keith
Title: Re: Keeping live bait alive
Post by: thorhammer on January 10, 2022, 08:17:37 PM
Careful on agri tanks- I have one and have concerns it's leaching into the water and killing bait. Maybe goes away over time, but for sure I dont get the mileage vs other set-ups even using a cycled trickle filter, aerator and chelating agents for heavy metals- with 6X water capacity.

Also- if you use a drum make sure you get really good turnover from bottom of tank and aeration. Plastic drums have a very low surface area to volume ratio of air-to-water interface, and the water in the bottom can quickly become anaerobic and nitrate / nitrate saturated if not recirc'd.

As Keith said- I've used an Igloo 125 someone had tossed pretty well- with an aquarium filter and a baitwell aerator.

Note: shad and menhaden are the worst by far, but mullet and to some degree shiners arent going to like the sharp corners of an aquarium. If you go that route, silicone in some plastic pieces drilled out for circulation as radiused baffles.

Yes, I've spent way too much time, money and effort on this :), but I've been fishing fifty years, an aquarist for forty- five, and educated as a biologist and chemist. What else am I sposed to do....
Title: Re: Keeping live bait alive
Post by: JasonGotaProblem on January 11, 2022, 04:15:39 AM
I'm glad I started this thread. Thank you everyone for the contributions thus far. There's a lot of great info here.

Also I forgot to mention the other experiment. Instead of driving 25 miles to saltwater to get replacement water to keep shrimp alive, I tried a 4 tbsp non iodized sea salt per gallon mix with distilled water. (I just used store bought morton salt) They didn't seem to mind. In fact none died on me. It was 2 dozen in 3 gallons on a plug in aerator.

The plural of anecdote is not data, but I offer up the anecdote nonetheless.
Title: Re: Keeping live bait alive
Post by: oc1 on January 11, 2022, 04:59:13 AM
There used to be (maybe still are) live shrimp haulers/dealers along the East Coast.  After trying it all, they settled on a flatbed truck with a really shallow tank the size of the truck bed.  The tank was filled with little mesh containers with a known number of shrimp in each.  The drifting containers dampen sloshing.  The shallow depth minimizes weight.  The large area (length and width) maximizes gas exchange (O2 in and CO2 out).  They also had battery circulator pumps.