I have the non-mag (non MC) version. I should have bought the MC version because I'll be doing more surf casting. Anyone know if there is a retrofit kit for this reel? If so, how do I get one? Where can I get instructions for the install? Thanks
not an easy one avet has their master cast. i've never magged a reel so i'm not sure what would be involved. :-\
You could put in static magnets if the rod and lure/bait weight is not going to change much. There are threads here about different options for doing it. Some are reversible.
Avet sells the MC cast frame as a seperate part but it probably better to sell your reel and buy the MC version price wise.
Hmmm.....maybe I should just practice casting the reel as-is. Backlash and new mono, here I come. ;D
There are no DIY kits available for magging an Avet, however there is a well known gentleman in Virginia who has experience magging both mc and non mc Avets. I'm not sure how much he charges but PM me and I can give you his company name.
There are no kits but ,I have swapped frames between non mag and mag avets .Avet will sell you the frame with the mags but as of now you just have to call them
Quote from: Tuffecs on August 27, 2021, 05:51:13 PM
I should just practice casting the reel as-is.
That didn't work when I tried it. :)
Quote from: Tuffecs on August 27, 2021, 05:51:13 PM
Hmmm.....maybe I should just practice casting the reel as-is. Backlash and new mono, here I come. ;D
try static mag the reel, you can add more o less magnets depending your average lure you cast.
this is a Shimano trinidad 16, it comes with centrifugal brakes and some guys might say it dont need any aditional help, but now with this rare earth strong mags I can throw any spoon or iron without any worries as you would do with an spinning reel, I might lost some distance but won many days without birdnest.
jus do something similar with your avet.
They also have countersunk magnets that can be attached to the side plate with a flathead screw. Then, the solid wafers can be added or reoved on top to tune the height of the stack and the amount of braking. K&J Magnetics. They're cheap so buy a variety.
Got a response from Avet; they sell the mag frame for $90, and they said to look at the schematic to figure it out. :-\ . I just may buy a mag reel like the Squall II ($150+), which I heard good reviews. Not sure I'll know what I'm doing or if it's worth the effort if I try static mags on my Avet.....not to mention how it'll really cast.
I would take Alex's advice and try some magnets before investing too much money in a new reel. Get some rare-earth magnets and either glue them into the sideplate with RTV or glue some magnetic stainless steel washers (if you have space). The RTV holds well and is removable. Stainless washers will allow you to add and remove magnets as necessary. I would recommend mimicing what you see in the Avet schematic for a starting place.
A well educated thumb is priceless but we all get excited and screw up. Like Alex says; you will lose a little distance but you may make up for that by not picking at back-lashes.
-Mike
Mike,
Would you have pics of what you're talking about? Or links that show it? Does it look like the Trinidad pic above? Thanks
Squidder for reference. i just use hot glue and carefully heat up the side plate with a small heat gun so the hotglue has a good bond to any random metal skinny washer that'll fit. do up a north/south/north combination and it'll slow down the spool. my baseline indicator freespool for my likes, i'll spin it as hard as i can. i'm satisfied when it spins less than 10 seconds. add more or less magnets as needed, and can stack them closer to the spool. then i'll put grease on the magnets and washer so they don't rust.
Quote from: Squidh90 on August 27, 2021, 09:18:09 PM
There are no DIY kits available for magging an Avet, however there is a well known gentleman in Virginia who has experience magging both mc and non mc Avets. I'm not sure how much he charges but PM me and I can give you his company name.
You mean he adds extra magnets to an MC Avet? MC = magnetic control, right?
No, the company, Reel KustomReels will actually drill out the side plate of both mc and non mc avets in order to install an adjustable mono mag type magnet. This type of magnet would completely replace the factory factory magnet on Mc reels as far as I understand. Mc technically means magic cast I believe, but yes it is just Avets term for magnetic cast control.
he only does that for customers named magneto. jk.
along those same lines i have over magged reels in the past where keys/hooks and other stuff have stuck to the outer sideplate. woopsy
Carl
Saw his web site, Squid. Thanks for info. Am impressed with all the different reels he's magged. I like the fact that he makes the mag strength externally adjustable.
First, I think I'm going to try static mags. Pics from creech and steelfish gave me a good idea of how to do it. Thanks
Quote from: Tuffecs on September 02, 2021, 02:38:45 AM
First, I think I'm going to try static mags. Pics from creech and steelfish gave me a good idea of how to do it. Thanks
my pics of the trinidad looks kind of complicated because the reel is pretty "busy" already in the left sideplate and its also concave.
but I actually did it because I saw guys with avets installing the magnets, take a lot at the next pics
I also static magged my saltist 20h, it was easier to do than my trinidad reel, again, I might have lost some distance but so far I havent been on a situation where I lose a fish opportunity because my reel didnt casted too far, first I installed 3 small mags on the saltist, now it only has one and I feel thats enough for the average weight I cast on it.
Much clearer now.
What is the purpose of the washers? Is it really needed? Could I use a cut-out sheet metal piece instead?
Also, after using your static mag reels, do you find it a pita to always open up the reel for adjustments? Seems like it would be much less annoying to have external adjustment knob, especially if you want small incremental changes.
When changing mags, you get larger incremental changes depending on the mag. And you're not getting the "just right" resistance because the mag change was too large.
Quote from: Tuffecs on September 02, 2021, 05:33:52 PM
Much clearer now.
What is the purpose of the washers? Is it really needed? Could I use a cut-out sheet metal piece instead?
Also, after using your static mag reels, do you find it a pita to always open up the reel for adjustments? Seems like it would be much less annoying to have external adjustment knob, especially if you want small incremental changes.
When changing mags, you get larger incremental changes depending on the mag. And you're not getting the "just right" resistance because the mag change was too large.
the purpose of the SS washers is to put the magnets in and out as required, the mags are not glued in the reel but the washers are, you can use a cut-out sheet metal instead of course but be sure to use an stainless steel metal or you will have ugly problems with corrosion, magnets are prone to corrode if they are in a corroded metal, so, even using an stainless steel metal stand for the mags use marine grease as protectant.
thats the main reason of using the smallest mags you can find and put them over a metal plate, so you can fine adjust after making some practice cast on the field, you dont want to open your reel on the beach or boat to take one mag in or out, not the best way but you have to find the number of magnets that work better for your weight you normally use on that specific reel, if you ever use less weight then the mags will cut your distance a lot and if you use way more weight than you average (for your mags) then you can run into the birdnest again.
no way to compete versus an external adjustmet mag knob,
this option is just to reduce your possible birdnest problem when surfcasting and thats it once you feel confident you can take one or two or every magnet on the reel.
on reels with external mag control normally I cast with the adjust knob to the minimum and depending on the wind specially if its infront of the face to cast I adjust the mag control.
steelfish got some nice looking 'mags' haha.
When you do magnet cast testing. Another old skool trick i learned growing up tossing jigs or sinkers. Take your most awesome cast, then strip another 10-15 yards out. put a small piece of medical tape or electrical tape. That way even if you birds nest, it's just a minor setback to fix and not spaghetti. I also do this method also when i fish at night where i can't see my jig/sinker in flight and have to guesstimate the landing. even if you're on a fish, the tape just falls off as you're getting spooled on a big fish. use biodegradable tape haha!
enjoy!
Carl
If the side plate is not flat you need to glue in the plate like Alex did to correct for the concave. If the side plate is already flat then you can glue magnets directly to the side plate. It's tricky to do unless you glue in one magnet at a time and let the adhesive fry before adding another. Use the largest diameter magnets that you can get away with. But, the magnets will need to tuck in under the spool flange so that often limits the diameter you can use.
Confirming steelfish = Alex?
Ok, see if I got this. Glue the washer to the sideplate. Do not glue mag to washer. Only attach the mag to the washer (allows for easy removal). Try to conform the washer or steel piece to the sideplate if it's concave.
Will try your tape trick, creech.
_________
Been fishing over 50 years. Since I haven't surf fished this past several years, I went out the other day to a local field to practice with my conventional reels.
When I did surf fish, I used mainly spinners and a single conventional. I casted just fine on my Saltist LW 30HA. So, I should do Ok at the field, right?
First, I tried my Sealine X20SHA (with mono). On the first cast, I threw easy, and it did well. On the next dozen casts, I incrementally threw harder, and it went farther. My thumb was still somewhat smart, so no problem, and my confidence went up.
Next, it was the SXJ's turn (with mono). On the first cast, I threw it easy. Some loose line resulted on the reel, but easily fixed. On the next cast, I threw harder. To my surprise, the spool spun very fast (such a big difference compared with the Sealine). I guess my thumb wasn't that smart, so yep, birdnest.
Next step, order mags.
Quote from: Tuffecs on September 04, 2021, 09:26:19 PM
Confirming steelfish = Alex?
Ok, see if I got this. Glue the washer to the sideplate. Do not glue mag to washer. Only attach the mag to the washer (allows for easy removal). Try to conform the washer or steel piece to the sideplate if it's concave.
Roger that. The closer the stacks of magnets are to the spool the stronger the braking force will be. You can fine tune it for thumbless casting by adding or removing thin magnet discs to the stacks. I use a combination of 1/8, 1/16 and 1/32 inch thick magnets to fine tune.
If you can not intentionally backlash the reel by throwing harder then usual and into the wind, then you might want to remove a few magnets to get more distance. If it backlashes then add more magnets to the stack(s).
Mike has a great ides using the RTV sealant to attach to the side plate. It is impervious to grease. Grease and oil can degrade five-minute epoxy within a year. Something like G-Flex will last a little longer.
oc1,
Do you start off with 1/4 or 1/8 inch diameter mags? Also, any particular type of tape you use on the line so it doesn't leave residue? I'd like to also use it to hold down the line to the spool (when reel is not in-use) to prevent unraveling. Many reels don't have that tab thingy on the spool's side to clip the line to.
Quote from: Tuffecs on September 04, 2021, 09:26:19 PM
Confirming steelfish = Alex?
Ok, see if I got this. Glue the washer to the sideplate. Do not glue mag to washer. Only attach the mag to the washer (allows for easy removal). Try to conform the washer or steel piece to the sideplate if it's concave.
Will try your tape trick, oc1.
sorry for the late response buddy, pretty much Steve covered everything you asked.
for tape, regular beige masking tape dont leave residue on the line, blue painters masking tape leave even less residue but tends to detach itself from itself after some days.
since you are starting with static mag, order few different sizes mags, test few different sizes on your reel and find the sweet spot for your reel, save the rest for any other static mag job.
You will also find 101 uses for leftover magnets. I put a couple on my drill-press head to hold the chuck key and bits. My drill guide has one so I can stick it to the side of my tool box. I have them on my magnifying lamp to hold Dremel bitts...the list goes on and on.
Just be very careful with the magnets because if a child or animal eats them; it can be very dangerous.
Quote from: Tuffecs on September 07, 2021, 04:26:04 PM
oc1,
Do you start off with 1/4 or 1/8 inch mags? Also, any particular type of tape you use on the line so it doesn't leave residue? I'd like to also use it to hold down the line to the spool (when reel is not in-use) to prevent unraveling. Many reels don't have that tab thingy on the spool's side to clip the line to.
Here's a little trick. Put a little blob of modeling clay where you want to put the magnets (make sure it doesn't stick to the spool or plate). Then take the clay out and measure the thickness. This will give you a good dimension to start with. Give yourself plenty of clearance between the magnets and spool.
Ok. Good idea on the extra mags.
I don't have clay, so maybe I'll try gum as a quick depth gauge.
The SXJ spool is aluminum, which is non-magnetic. How does the mag slow the spool down on a cast?
The spool does not have to be magnetic material. It has to be conductive material. Aluminum is a good conductor.
Sometimes it is better to not delve too deeply into Lenz's Law.
"The induced electromotive force with different polarities induces a current whose magnetic field opposes the change in magnetic flux through the loop in order to ensure that original flux is maintained through the loop when current flows in it."
Like Steve said; you would not want a magnetic (ferrous) spool because the magnets would influence it too much. But the spool has to be metallic. If you had a plastic or graphite spool you would need to adhere an aluminum or brass disk to the side with the magnets. Non-magnetic stainless steel will also work.
Ok. I think I'll just accept that it works. Mag flux...current...conductive material. Ah, great scott...similar principle as the flux capacitor.
KJ sells neodymium magnets. Amazon sells DIYMAG refrigerator magnets that are "strong high-quality neodymium-iron-boron (NdFeB) magnets" for far less than KJ.
Anyone know if the magnets are really different? The same? Should I really buy KJ instead?
get both and tell us your findings, cheap mags might corrode faster by saltwater ;D ;D
any magnet will work, even those magnets on the Hard Disc from computers, those are thin but large.
I think I would go with the DIYMAGs. They're nickle plated but I would still brush them down with grease once you're happy with the configuration. Maybe get some 6 x 2 and some 8 x 3...if you find an assortment, even better.
Neodymium corrodes really easily. The hard candy shell they put on them is not very corrosion resistant either and is prone to chipping. Then the rust that flakes off is magnetic too so you end up with a coating of brown crud that is difficult to remove. I spray them with WD-40, then blow the crud off with compressed air, repeat, then re-lube.
The corrosion does not seem to effect how the reel behaves, but it looks terrible and is not something you would want to get in the spool bearings.
steelfish,
Your Trinidad pic shows 3 mags arranged as follows: - + -
Why not arrange as + - + ? Does it matter?
Your blue reel also has 3 mags. Can't tell the upside polarity. Same as Trinidad?
Your silver reels (left to right) show 1, 2, and 2 mags, respectively. What is the upside polarity of the 1 mag? Of the 2 mag reels?
Creech has 3 mags in his Squidder, and the polarities are unmarked. The mags are in a triangular arrangement. I wonder if arrangement matters. Triangle vs linear. What if the mags are farther apart, say half inch? One inch? Is the magnetic force more, less, or the same?
What is the approach in trying to increase or decrease resistance on spool speed?
To increase resistance (reduce spool speed), do you keep mag quantity the same and increase mag diameter or thickness? Add another mag of same dia & thickness?
If I understand this right, larger mags (larger dia or thickness) will yield stronger magnetic force (more resistance on spool). Also, more mags means more force.
I guess you have a number of choices depending on available mags. Increase/decrease dia, increase/decrease thickness, or increase/decrease quantity to get the right force.
I stole this from another site: "I add or remove magnets until the spool barely starts to overrun at splash-down when casting across the wind. If I change rods then the whole tuning process stars over again. The process starts over and more magnets are needed if trying to switch to a lighter lure. You can often get by when switching to a heavier lure though."
Quote from: Tuffecs on September 08, 2021, 05:16:20 PM
steelfish,
Your Trinidad pic shows 3 mags arranged as follows: - + -
Why not arrange as + - + ? Does it matter?
I really dont know ;D ;D and never wanted to go that deep on understanding the theory of magnetic fields/ eddie currents/ etc , I just marked them to be sure they were installed with opposite force from each other, that will increase the magnetic field than put them all with "+" on the back/front.
the avet reels arent mine, I just found the pictures on my laptop that helped me to install my own mags
dont try to copy the exact configuration you see and expect to have the same results only if its the same reel with the same mags, even mags of the same size will have different effect on each reel, depending on the size of the spool, material of the spool, space between the mag and spool, brand of the mag, etc.
Quote from: PacRat on September 08, 2021, 05:35:40 PM
I stole this from another site: "I add or remove magnets until the spool barely starts to overrun at splash-down when casting across the wind. If I change rods then the whole tuning process stars over again. "
completely true, been there done that.
some guys are totally against static mag a reel because of that, once you find the sweet spot for you reel with certain number of mags expect to have some overruns if you cast in a hurry on a feeding frenzy or if you cast a lot more heavy lure because it will pull the line faster than the magnets were able to control the spool speed.
thats why some fishermen prefer to spend some money for an aftermarket external mag control, aka Knobby mag, its basically turn your avet reel into a MC version
check this thread https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=26171.0
I fooled around with magnets a long time ago and eventually removed them and when back to my thumb just too squeeze a couple more yards out of my casts. I did a little googling and a lot of other sites refer people back to alantani.com for the best advice. Here's an thread that is worth reading. It also discusses the virtues of +-+, +++, and +-- configurations.
https://www.stripersonline.com/surftalk/topic/121353-magging-an-avet-mxj/
KJ Magnetics
I chose 12 mags:
Dia 1/4, 3/8; thickness 1/8, 3/32
$ 15 - 20 shipped
Amazon
DIYMAG refrigeration magnets, package deal for 60 mags:
Dia 15, 12, 10, 8, 6 mm (12 pieces of each dia); thickness - all 2 mm
$ 9 shipped
- Both web sites had good mag descriptions: coated, corrosion resistant, quality, strong, etc.
- I measured clearance in my SXJ; all mags above will fit my reel
I ordered DIYMAG.
Tuffecs, i also do the north/south/north on most of my reels, i just don't mark it on the actual magnet. i also play around with magnet heights ( i have different height magnets i get). mine are just circular so it can fit on my circular washer so i can mix and match on the fly. i think the polarity opposites like north/south or +/-, slows down the spool the fastest.
Generally on most of my reels i average about 3-4 small magnets.
Only one i put a huge magnet are my lever drag fathoms, which are hard for me to control casts. such a fast spool startup.......
My general goal is to have my freespool when i test it by spinning it to be less than 10 seconds spin time.
Received the mags last night. Wow, these things are strong.
Will try three 8 mm mags as a start.
More pics to come.
Installed/glued the #8 flat washers; thickness about 1/32 ". Had Gorilla contact adhesive on hand, so used it. It's waterproof, clear, and flexible. Did sideplate and washer clean/prep before gluing.
Just about ready to insert the mags, but I can't find my compass to determine mag polarity. Will order one.
You don't need to know if they are positive or negative. You just have to make sure they alternate polarities. You can determine that just by holding them and seeing what sticks to what.
Two adjacent magnets with opposite polarities facing up will weaking stick together when you place them side by side. They will repel each other if you try to stack them one on top of the other.
Two adjacent magnets with the same polarity facing up will repel each other when placed side-by-side but stick together tightly when one is placed on top of ther other but .
Yes, I can install the mags just as you mentioned, oc1. But I still want to know the polarities as I play around with different mag set ups. This should be interesting. Thanks!
You can give them names, north and south, head and tail. But, it doesn't matter. Two stacks of north separated by one stack of south will behave the same as two stacks of south separated by a staclk of north.
I've done a few of my reels that way and ended up taking them out. it works well but its static. On a day when the wind is with you, your casting won't be nearly as far as it could be. I used to take off the plate at the beach and fiddle with them and then realized taking the plate off a reel at the beach is not a good idea. I have a Fathom II 15 CS and I adjust it to whatever the wind is doing just about every time out. As far as the 'MC" mag plates, I had a magged Avet and with the mag turned all the way down, it was still too much mag. They have the right idea, but wrong execution. With no wind, or if it's with you, you won't need mags at all. Sold it and got the Fathom. Problem solved. I also fish with a friend who has a commercial license and he only fishes with the Squalls on the beach, swears by them and I agree, they are very good, almost bullet proof reels.
I hear ya, oc1. I'd like to see the mags labeled...for convenience...to visually see the markings...I guess it makes my brain feel at ease...lol.
Breadfan,
Looks like you're sold on the Fathom. I was thinking about getting the star drag versions of Squall II or Fathom II 15 for surf casting primarily. Maybe the Fathom II 25N instead. Do you like your Casting Special better than the standard?
I've been doing more reading about static magging, and have not been hearing that static mag reels are all that great. Seems like the custom knobby mag ones are way better. Still, I want to give static mag a shot on my Avet.
After all is said and done, I would probably end up with a new Squall or Fathom. ;)
a lot of reels will be much better than avet MC for surf fishing, its just the nature of the beast, any comparable size good caster star drag reel will be better option than an avet, period.
as example : you have the saltist 20h, fathoms, old sealines 20SHA or 20SLOSH, penn 525mag, penn 535 non mag, etc, etc.
the problem with avet and many leverdrag reels for surf casting is the weight of the spool, when comparing similar sized reels the spool of a LD is pretty heavy compared to the spools of a SD reel, so, you need more mag force to stop it or control the speed that force also cause to reduce the casting distance when you have the wind on your favor, with star drag reels you need much less mag force to control the spool so, thats mean more distance when you make a good cast or have the wind on your back.
with that said, I left the static mag on reels I use to cast from a boat which dont require 100yds to reach the fish and the opportunity to find a feeding frenzy and lost control by the adrenaline is higher and as many have done it, I took the mags out from reels I cast from the beach.
my dream reel for cast from the beach is the Bridgeless truth SM reel, I will buy it someday, not pretty soon but I will get it
(http://www.stripersonline.com/surftalk/uploads/monthly_03_2016/post-2087-0-51525700-1458861838.jpg)
https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=18237.0
I agree Alex and am glad to hear someone else say lever drag reels are disadvantaged when it cmes to casting.
You have to admire Release/Truth/Seigler reels. A small company started by an engineer. Unlimited lifetime warranty. Not made in China. I hope he can make it over the long run.
Man, you guys are getting me all fired up on this. ;D
Is it now called the Seigler SM SD? I'm really liking the reviews on this.
Those Seigler SMs are cool reels. They're made about two hours from where I live and I actually got a tour of the shop. Almost everything is done in house by about a dozen people. The only caveat is occasionally they will let a reel out with some slight qc issues. My friend had one where some of the knobs and the clutch lever weren't put on 100% correctly. But if you're looking for a high performance surf casting reel the seigler SM is a solid option.
Referencing some of your comments. As we mag a reel to control spool speed and minimize backlashes, we also lose some distance. If that's the case, why not just use a spinner and avoid the risk of backlash? Can a spinner outcast a magged conventional reel in terms of distance?
No, a magged conventional will for the most part outcast all spinners. I'm sure someone else here can go deeper into the physics of that, but I personally am not well versed enough in that area to explain it.
Quote from: Tuffecs on September 13, 2021, 03:51:41 PM
Referencing some of your comments. As we mag a reel to control spool speed and minimize backlashes, we also lose some distance. If that's the case, why not just use a spinner and avoid the risk of backlash? Can a spinner outcast a magged conventional reel in terms of distance?
for a weekend warrior, chose your poison!
for a casting competition casting reel normally outcast a super spinning reel.
take a spinner or casting reel, the one that is easier for you in your specific area and situation, in some places a spinning reel is recommended over a baitcaster because of the lack of care in wind, casting area, etc. etc, but still some chose to use a casting reel for the same reason some chose an standard/stick car over an automatic one, pepsi or coke, ford or chevy, etc.
with that said, I like to use conventional reels for surf casting but I must admit that in certain zones and situations its 3x better to cast with an Spinner reel for the easier to use factor and lack of birdnest.
as example: I learned that when casting in Puerto Vallarta over some ugly and tall rocks on the beach; you can cast from the sand on the Beach if you wish but those rocks give you some advantage in yards if you cast standing on top of them over casting from the sand, but you have to watch for your balance on the cast to avoid losing balance and have an ugly fall from then, I used an spinning setup a friend loaned me, I dont think I could made 200 casts of a lure with a casting reel from there without losing a step or without having tons of birdnest.
for me, spinning reel have its place and time (dark night) over a casting reel or you can just use a spinning reel everytime
in the last pic, you can see some friends fishing from the sandy beach, at the back you can see the rocks were some of us climbed to cast from there, only the guys that fished from the rock caught fish that day.
Quote from: Squidh90 on September 13, 2021, 07:24:57 PM
No, a magged conventional will for the most part outcast all spinners. I'm sure someone else here can go deeper into the physics of that, but I personally am not well versed enough in that area to explain it.
Casting is still a mystery to me. But, I suspect that once you get the spool moving a conventional reel "delivers" line to the stripper guide with little resistance.
You hear about the importance of start-up speed. A light weight conventional spool wiill start-up faster than a heavy spool. Over-runs arise when the spool is delivering more line than the rod and lure can consume or carry away.
With a spinner every foot of line has to be pulled off as it rubs on the edge of the stationary spool. A spinner also makes those big loopy coils that are more difficult to choke down.
Dominick once pointed us to a slow-motion video of the line coning off a conventional and a spinner. When you see what's going on between the spool and the stripper it becomes clear why a conventional is longer.
A spinner is easier to learn to use though. A conventional has a learning curve and folks like myself don't even try to use them without some sort of braking to make it thumb-free.
this thread deserves a good read since they seems to be related
Avet MXL MC for distance https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=24562.0
Quote from: oc1 on September 11, 2021, 08:21:58 PM
I agree Alex and am glad to hear someone else say lever drag reels are disadvantaged when it cmes to casting.
You have to admire Release/Truth/Seigler reels. A small company started by an engineer. Unlimited lifetime warranty. Not made in China. I hope he can make it over the long run.
Lever drag "casting" reels are sort of morphed designs from lever drag trolling reels. The spools tend to be heavier and have more junk bolted to them relative to a typical star drag casting reel. While I agree with your general assessment, I don't see any reason why a properly dsigned lever drag reel cannot have the same spool weight and spindle style (if so desired) as a star drag. At that point, there would be no difference in casting capability.
On spinning reels vs conventional: I do believe as lighter braid becomes more popular, and since spinning reels and rods have already become more optimized for casting braid, the distance advantage for conventional reels is going to shrink enough that for many folks, it will not be worth learning a much more difficult (but not THAT difficult) skillset, and will just stick with the spinners that they learned on and skip all the backlash anxiety. I think that Jeri has posted some comments about the shrinking of the gap between spinners and conventionals in surf casting, where distance is paramount.
But distance casting is just a one criteria when comparing spinning to conventional reels.
Spinning reels have some specific advantages (easy to learn to cast, backlash free, casting light weights - even with stiff rods and heavy lines, working speed poppers with lots of slack in the retrieve), but IMHO are generally functionally inferior for many important activities (controlling distance during a cast, veritical drop fishing, live baiting, troliling). And spinning reels are unavoidably more complex, with less structural integrity.
No free lunch.
Getting back to magging conventionals: Nothing wrong with playing with static magging, but adjustable would seem to be the way to go long term with one caveat: The problem with the (from-the-factory) adjustable magged reels that I own that start at zero effect is they don't have a strong enough max. I wonder if it is difficult to design an adjustable mag that can go all the way from zero to controlling a strong heave with a heavy load. Maybe that is why the Avets don't go all the way down to zero. I think that Avets have their faults, but compared to other reel makers, they are less likely to do something blindingly stoopid.
On those Seigler reels: There is nothing magical about making a conventional that casts well. If the spool is light, the bearings are small, and the parts are straight and well aligned, it will cast. There is a reason why tournament casters are still using ABUs.
So there has to be another reason to buy a high end star drag. If memory serves me right, Seigler started out without a backup dog, and hit the roller clutch issues that should have been anticipated. They managed to find a spot for a backup dog by hollowing out the main gear and putting the pawl teeth on the inside (blech) . To be fair, Seigler was not the only reel company to make this mistake, but being no worse than the completion is not an endorsement.
And the Seigler fly reels have a bunch of "interesting" design choices, starting with the basic dimensions. It is enough to make me cautious about plunking down cash for any Seigler sight unseen. This is not to say that those very attractive looking star drag reels might not be worth the price, but favorable reports over the interwebs would not be enough in this case for me. YMMV
-J
Very interesting perspectives on spinner/conv. I've been using spinners for many yrs, but somehow I like conv casting even though the birdnest risk is there. I'll have to read that MXL thread again...just for the fun it. :D
Ok, back to my Avet.
At first, I randomly said I would use 3 mags ( 8 mm dia, 2 mm thick) as a start. Seemed reasonable.
I checked the spin time on this set-up (called it SU1) because I wanted to see if it was similar to creech's spin target (post #42), which is to target less than 10 sec when determining a mag set-up.
Well, turns out this SU1 may be a bit too strong. As seen below, the spin time was about 4 sec.
_____________________
Avet SXJ 5.3, Spool spin time characterization
Objective: Determine relationship between mag resistance (mag set-up) and spin time. This will provide an idea of how much mag to add or remove to get the estimated resistance on spool.
My non-scientific approach: I spun the spool using my hand only. Timed the free spool spin. Did each set-up five times. Times are approximate; eyeballed.
Mags used: 8 and 6 mm. All mags are 2 mm thick.
Baseline: zero mags
Spin times: 21, 20, 20, 21, 21 seconds
The following 3 set-ups all use 8 mm dia mags:
SU1 (3 mags, 8 mm dia) See pic
Spin times: 4, 3.5, 4, 4, 3.5
SU2 ( 2 mags, 8 mm dia)
Spin times: not tested (but can interpolate to get estimation of 7 sec)
SU3 (1 mag, 8 mm dia)
Spin times: 10, 9, 9 ,9, 10
-------------------
The next 3 set-ups all use 6 mm dia mags.
SU4 (3 mags, 6 mm dia)
Spin times: not tested (but can extrapolate to get estimation of 6 sec)
SU5: (2 mags, 6 mm dia) See pic
Spin times: 10, 10, 10, 10, 10
SU6: (1 mag, 6 mm dia)
Spin times: 14, 14, 14, 13, 13
___________________________
As mentioned, SU1 is too strong at 4 sec.
As you can see, SU3 and SU5 correspond to about 10 sec each, which is in line with creech's spin target of 10 sec.
So, I'll try SU5 for my first cast.
Using SU5 as reference:
- If I need more resistance, I could use 3 mags (SU4) at about 6 sec.
- If I need less resistance, I'd take away one mag to get SU6. Here, we're going from 10 sec (SU5) to about 14 sec (SU6).
Next step: get out to the field and do some casting.
Yeah, you have to cast it to fine tune the magnets.
Taking a reel apart and putting it back together just add or remove a tiny magnet is not much fun. Then, if the lure weight or rod is changed you have to start the process all over again. That is the advantage of an external adjustment knob over static mags. Homemade external adjustment gizmos are not difficult to make. I posted a few of them here at AT somewhere and Beach Bob showed and add-on external adjustment gizmo above. They are not worth the effort when you are not going to be changing lure weight or rod. I always carry a back-up outfit tuned for a different lure weight.
With the reel on the bench, I know I am in the ball park when giving the line a hard jerk will cause enough over-run to leave a few loose loops, but not really cause a backlash.
good luck Tuffecs!
dont forget to use the tape/spool trick if you want. might save you some aggravation during your critical testing.
let us know what code number winner is for you.
normally i'll have the reels set for what ounce lures i'm gonna be sending airmail, so i'm not really wanting to change magnets once i get them dialed in. and obviously any of them i can multi task and use any size for bait since i dont want to rip their face or belly off when casting them.
i'll have to agree with an above poster that the magcast avets are super magged, if they had setting for 0.25, and 0.5, in addition to the 1,2,3,4. it would be better.
squidder/ sx/mx or my slosh reels i usually use for 40-80 grams stuff with 2,3,4 magnets tops.
jx/newells/penns i'll mag for 100 grams up to tady size jigs i go at least 4 magnets cause i'm generating so much spool speed.
Tested my Avet yesterday during a fishing trip to a Delaware beach. I fished two spinner and one Avet conv reels.
On the first Avet cast (with SU5), got some loose line on a easy throw.
On the harder second cast, got a birdnest that was quickly fixed. Hmmm....I thought I need more mag.
Did several casts throughout the day. Most casts ended in loose line. A couple casts had birdnests, but easily fixed.
Although my initial thought was that I need more mags, I had one cast that was the longest cast of the day. Maybe 20% longer than my spinner casts. And no loose line or birdnest! Just before I threw it, I remembered to thumb it right after the release (ref oc1's comment about fast start-up spool speed). So then I thought, maybe I just need a smarter thumb. (Dang, I forgot to bring tape to do the minimize-birdnest-trick)
I didn't bring extra mags on the trip because I didn't want to mess with it on the beach.
Anyway, will add more resistance (SU2) for next time. SU2 spin time is about 7 sec, vs SU5 (10 sec).
One thing I learned, I'm not a fan of Lever Drag for surf casting. This Avet is my first LD reel. I bought it because I wanted to try it out, especially with all the accolades LD has been getting. I prefer star drag.
BTW, here's one of my catches (pic) of the day. Juvenile sandbar shark. The spinner caught that one...lol.
Nice congrats on the testing. wow you guys have some really nice rock on your coast, like aquarium level rock.
i think the 7 second code number one you have might be the golden ticket.
ya it's a love/hate thing on LD's on throwing stuff far. Star drags like my newells/daiwa slosh still have my heart for beach and jig casting.
Quote from: Tuffecs on September 10, 2021, 07:27:51 PM
I hear ya, oc1. I'd like to see the mags labeled...for convenience...to visually see the markings...I guess it makes my brain feel at ease...lol.
Breadfan,
Looks like you're sold on the Fathom. I was thinking about getting the star drag versions of Squall II or Fathom II 15 for surf casting primarily. Maybe the Fathom II 25N instead. Do you like your Casting Special better than the standard?
I've been doing more reading about static magging, and have not been hearing that static mag reels are all that great. Seems like the custom knobby mag ones are way better. Still, I want to give static mag a shot on my Avet.
After all is said and done, I would probably end up with a new Squall or Fathom. ;)
I have the Fathom SDCS (casting special). The differences between this reel and the older Fathoms is the new ones have upgraded bearings, more line capacity and a knobby mag. Not sure about the squall's CS reels capacity, other than that they also have the knobby mag and the upgraded bearings. I'm very happy with mine, I've always been old school and use reels like the Daiwa Millionaires and the Abu 7000's, but after getting this Fathom, I'm seriously thinking about getting 3 more. I fish anywhere from 2-4 rods at a time and having the same reels casting the same way would be nice. The Fathom 15 SDCS has more than enough line capacity for surf fishing and I think only the 12 and 15 models are magged. Unless you are after big sharks, you won't need anything bigger than the 15. They are really good reels and the drags are ultra smooth.
Quote from: Tuffecs on September 13, 2021, 03:51:41 PM
Referencing some of your comments. As we mag a reel to control spool speed and minimize backlashes, we also lose some distance. If that's the case, why not just use a spinner and avoid the risk of backlash? Can a spinner outcast a magged conventional reel in terms of distance?
Backlashes are mostly from not enough experience. If you dedicate yourself to the reel and rod, you will master it. I can go for months at a time now and not get a single backlash. The mags are only for the windy days. No wind days need no mags once you master it. On my cast, I don't thumb the spool until the bait hits the water, if I have to thumb it right from the start, that just tells me I am casting too hard, plus it burns! You must have a fluid throw, bait and line coming off at the exact same speed. On top of it all, you have a winch in your hand that you can control the distance and where you want that bait to land. I switched from spinners to conventional while bass fishing when I was 15 and I never looked back. It may sound strange but spinners are harder to fish with for me, I would always get twisted line, reels that only liked certain line, tangles, ect.ect. One other big thing for me is if you get broken off with your conventional, it will not affect your casting distance and you can just re-tie and fish out the day if you have enough line left on the reel. Do that with a spinner and you've lost a lot of distance. But, it does take some dedication, and many scoff at that. I get it though, Spinners for the most part are easier to the average person who doesn't fish a lot or they just like them better, nothing wrong with that. They do have there time and place and when you need one, you need one. When my daughter was about 8 or 9 she asked why her reel was different (she had little zebcos) from mine, I told her these were hard reels to cast, but she could try it. She did, she tangled it. Got the tangle out and did it again and again that day until she finally got off a cast or two. I went through a lot of tangles and a lot of line teaching her but she still uses them today and she's 21. Made me proud! Sorry to get off topic!
Yeah, leaning toward the Fathom 15SDCS, but the comments in this tread put another reel in my head....Seigler.
Anyway, video of SXJ MC...going to see if I can do that on a few static mags in my SXJ ;D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOY3vLlH5L0
Nope. Couldn't cast like the video.
Went out to the field and did 20 throws on SU2 (estimated 7 sec spin time; 2 mags, 8 mm dia).
Still had to use thumb. A couple of easily fixed birdnests, and a couple of loose line casts. About half the casts were good; no loose line or birdnests.
Will try SU1 next time. (4 sec spin time; 3 mags, 8 mm dia)
On the other hand, thinking I may need to go with larger mags (10 mm dia) at maybe 1-2 sec spin time.
Quote from: Tuffecs on September 17, 2021, 07:07:16 PM
Yeah, leaning toward the Fathom 15SDCS, but the comments in this tread put another reel in my head....Seigler.
Anyway, video of SXJ MC...going to see if I can do that on a few static mags in my SXJ ;D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOY3vLlH5L0
The Seigler is also on my list. They look like well built reels. A lot of cash but that is to be expected for reels built in the U.S.
Went to the field today, and what a good casting day!
On a previous field trip, the SXJ had only two 8 mm dia mags (SU2 set-up). Spool spin time was about 6-7 sec. All mags 2 mm thick. When I did the casts, had couple birdnests and loose line.
For today, the SXJ (w/ mono) now had three mags: two 8 mm dia, and one 10 mm dia mags. For this set-up, spin time estimated to be 2 sec.
I threw 4 ounces on my new Berrypro made-in-china, I'm-really-liking-it, only $70 from Amazon, 11 foot, conv rod.
Did 17 casts, and got no birdnest! One cast had some quickly-fixed loose line. On all casts, I did use thumb though, but barely.
For comparison, I then switched to my Daiwa Sealine X20SHA (w/ mono). This reel is stock. No mags added.
Did 5 casts, and again, no birdnest. No loose line either. I used very little thumb.
The distance was about the same for each reel.
I was really enjoying the casts, especially with the SXJ. I'm thinking...dang....is my thumb getting smarter?
----------------
Ok, for now, will use the SXJ 3-mag set-up (8, 8,10) for my next fishing trip. We'll see how it goes.
I'm thinking though, as my thumb gets smarter, I may have to remove the mags as I try to get more distance...lol.
Quote from: Breadfan on September 17, 2021, 01:23:20 PM
Quote from: Tuffecs on September 10, 2021, 07:27:51 PM
I hear ya, oc1. I'd like to see the mags labeled...for convenience...to visually see the markings...I guess it makes my brain feel at ease...lol.
Breadfan,
Looks like you're sold on the Fathom. I was thinking about getting the star drag versions of Squall II or Fathom II 15 for surf casting primarily. Maybe the Fathom II 25N instead. Do you like your Casting Special better than the standard?
I've been doing more reading about static magging, and have not been hearing that static mag reels are all that great. Seems like the custom knobby mag ones are way better. Still, I want to give static mag a shot on my Avet.
After all is said and done, I would probably end up with a new Squall or Fathom. ;)
I have the Fathom SDCS (casting special). The differences between this reel and the older Fathoms is the new ones have upgraded bearings, more line capacity and a knobby mag. Not sure about the squall's CS reels capacity, other than that they also have the knobby mag and the upgraded bearings. I'm very happy with mine, I've always been old school and use reels like the Daiwa Millionaires and the Abu 7000's, but after getting this Fathom, I'm seriously thinking about getting 3 more. I fish anywhere from 2-4 rods at a time and having the same reels casting the same way would be nice. The Fathom 15 SDCS has more than enough line capacity for surf fishing and I think only the 12 and 15 models are magged. Unless you are after big sharks, you won't need anything bigger than the 15. They are really good reels and the drags are ultra smooth.
Does the the knobby mag on your 15SDCS interfere with your wrist? I read that it protrudes out far enough to press against your wrist while reeling. And some guys are replacing the knobby mag with a dial adjuster, the same dial that's on the 12SD and 15SD. The dial (and screw) can be ordered, and it can fit in the 15SDCS with no problem. At least, that's what I read.
Also, I read that the 15SDCS is mainly for competitors and people that really need max distance. They make adjustments, via knobby mag, while the rig is flying through the air. Instead, I'm wondering if the 15SD will be ok, but I don't want this reel to be the reason for me not getting my max distance. (Frankly, I'm not really an experienced big-guy conv reel power caster). Thoughts on the 15SD?
I'm asking these questions because although my Avet is a really nice compact reel, I really would like star drag and some external adjustment dial/knob like the Fathom has.............or Seigler :-\.
Quote from: Breadfan on September 17, 2021, 01:50:11 PM
Quote from: Tuffecs on September 13, 2021, 03:51:41 PM
Referencing some of your comments. As we mag a reel to control spool speed and minimize backlashes, we also lose some distance. If that's the case, why not just use a spinner and avoid the risk of backlash? Can a spinner outcast a magged conventional reel in terms of distance?
Backlashes are mostly from not enough experience. If you dedicate yourself to the reel and rod, you will master it. I can go for months at a time now and not get a single backlash. The mags are only for the windy days. No wind days need no mags once you master it. On my cast, I don't thumb the spool until the bait hits the water, if I have to thumb it right from the start, that just tells me I am casting too hard, plus it burns! You must have a fluid throw, bait and line coming off at the exact same speed. On top of it all, you have a winch in your hand that you can control the distance and where you want that bait to land. I switched from spinners to conventional while bass fishing when I was 15 and I never looked back. It may sound strange but spinners are harder to fish with for me, I would always get twisted line, reels that only liked certain line, tangles, ect.ect. One other big thing for me is if you get broken off with your conventional, it will not affect your casting distance and you can just re-tie and fish out the day if you have enough line left on the reel. Do that with a spinner and you've lost a lot of distance. But, it does take some dedication, and many scoff at that. I get it though, Spinners for the most part are easier to the average person who doesn't fish a lot or they just like them better, nothing wrong with that. They do have there time and place and when you need one, you need one. When my daughter was about 8 or 9 she asked why her reel was different (she had little zebcos) from mine, I told her these were hard reels to cast, but she could try it. She did, she tangled it. Got the tangle out and did it again and again that day until she finally got off a cast or two. I went through a lot of tangles and a lot of line teaching her but she still uses them today and she's 21. Made me proud! Sorry to get off topic!
If you have to thumb early, you said you're throwing too hard. Thumbing is best done just before it hits water. Ok, so how do you get distance if you don't want to throw hard? Do fluid throws with a longer rod?
I set my magnets so I can throw as hard as I want side-wind or down-wind without thumb. But, I have to use a little early thumb throwing a line drive up-wind. I'm sitting a canoe with my rear end near water level so throwing as hard as I can is still not very hard.. Also, using a 10-11 ft twitchy rod and 1/4 to 3/8 oz bucktail.
Those knobby knobs don't have to stick out that way for functionality. There is a lot of unnecessary length in the design just so you can find it for in-flight adjustments. Making a less obtrusive mag adjustment gizmo can be farbicated if you have tools. I need to look at one again, but think you can just cut the knob down quite a bit on the commercial unit and smooth the edges.
Does the the knobby mag on your 15SDCS interfere with your wrist? I read that it protrudes out far enough to press against your wrist while reeling. And some guys are replacing the knobby mag with a dial adjuster, the same dial that's on the 12SD and 15SD. The dial (and screw) can be ordered, and it can fit in the 15SDCS with no problem. At least, that's what I read.
Also, I read that the 15SDCS is mainly for competitors and people that really need max distance. They make adjustments, via knobby mag, while the rig is flying through the air. Instead, I'm wondering if the 15SD will be ok, but I don't want this reel to be the reason for me not getting my max distance. (Frankly, I'm not really an experienced big-guy conv reel power caster). Thoughts on the 15SD?
I'm asking these questions because although my Avet is a really nice compact reel, I really would like star drag and some external adjustment dial/knob like the Fathom has.............or Seigler :-\.
[/quote]
Yes, the mag does interfere with my wrist. I read many reviews before I bought one and some have replaced the knob with a flush dial that goes on the old Fathoms, Squalls and the even older 525Mag. As a matter of fact, the part is from the the 525. I anticipated this and ordered two 525Mag dials and two screws. Sure enough, I didn't like the knob sticking out and I changed it out before I even went fishing once. It was worth it. 10 bucks including shipping. Let me know if you need the part number and place to order from if you go that route.
Quote from: Tuffecs on September 25, 2021, 08:58:50 PM
Went to the field today, and what a good casting day!
On a previous field trip, the SXJ had only two 8 mm dia mags (SU2 set-up). Spool spin time was about 6-7 sec. All mags 2 mm thick. When I did the casts, had couple birdnests and loose line.
For today, the SXJ (w/ mono) now had three mags: two 8 mm dia, and one 10 mm dia mags. For this set-up, spin time estimated to be 2 sec.
I threw 4 ounces on my new Berrypro made-in-china, I'm-really-liking-it, only $70 from Amazon, 11 foot, conv rod.
Did 17 casts, and got no birdnest! One cast had some quickly-fixed loose line. On all casts, I did use thumb though, but barely.
For comparison, I then switched to my Daiwa Sealine X20SHA (w/ mono). This reel is stock. No mags added.
Did 5 casts, and again, no birdnest. No loose line either. I used very little thumb.
The distance was about the same for each reel.
I was really enjoying the casts, especially with the SXJ. I'm thinking...dang....is my thumb getting smarter?
----------------
Ok, for now, will use the SXJ 3-mag set-up (8, 8,10) for my next fishing trip. We'll see how it goes.
I'm thinking though, as my thumb gets smarter, I may have to remove the mags as I try to get more distance...lol.
Congrats on the Mag tuning! Fun to get accurate casts into the bite zone and not worry too much about the nests.
Easily my funnest casting setups are Newells magged, Daiwa Sloshes with the spool brake, and the Avet sx's magged. Since i'm casting for hours with tady 45's and other random heavy jigs and trying to keep my balance on the boat, i have to go with the lightest possible reels and jigs sticks to not get too tired haha.
It's still not quite what I'd like to see. With this latest set-up (3 mags at 8-8-10, where spool spin time is about 2 sec), I still have to use some thumb. To cast like the video, where he uses just about no thumb, I may have to add more mags to my SXJ. In other words, the spool spin time would have to be about zero second, I think. Or maybe try a stronger 10-10-10 for instant spin spool stop? Or 12-12-12?
Less than a second of free spin time does not sound unreasonable if you want to go completely thumb free. It's a trade off. You're going to give up a few yards for the convenience. When you factor in the backlash tax it may not be a bad deal though.