Reel Repair by Alan Tani

Conventional and Bait Casting Reel Rebuild Tutorials and Questions => Penn Senator Tutorials and Questions => Topic started by: Whino83 on October 08, 2021, 05:46:43 PM



Title: Penn 113n US Senator Drag Question
Post by: Whino83 on October 08, 2021, 05:46:43 PM
I recently picked up 2 of these reels new. I threw some line on one of them to do some casting and I found that when I back the drag star all the way off  it still has just a little bit of drag pressure. With the style fishing I do I need to be able to back the drag all the way off to no resistance. My question is can I flip a spring washer somewhere in the reel or something so when I back the drag star completely off Iíll have zero drag pressure?

If I lost a few pounds of max drag that wouldnít hurt me at all. I just need to be able to back the drag completely off.


Title: Re: Penn 113n US Senator Drag Question
Post by: handi2 on October 08, 2021, 06:02:21 PM
Yes you can remove a washer below the drag star. If there is one between the star and handle remove it too.

With the reel in freespool is that too fast to cast?

Keith


Title: Re: Penn 113n US Senator Drag Question
Post by: Alan Matsuno on October 08, 2021, 06:05:06 PM
I can not answer your mechanical question.  Do these reels have a clicker?  If yes, free spool with the clicker on.  Drag adjusted as desired for landing a fish.


Title: Re: Penn 113n US Senator Drag Question
Post by: Whino83 on October 08, 2021, 06:09:52 PM
Yes you can remove a washer below the drag star. If there is one between the star and handle remove it too.

With the reel in freespool is that too fast to cast?

Keith

There are 2 spring washers under the star. I removed but it didnít change the drag pressure at all.

As for casting I grew up casting old pennís with 8 and bait. Iíve did a ton with an old 113H I have. Compared to my old 113H this 113n is a lot better. Iím about to go to a pond near my house and do some more casting now.


Title: Re: Penn 113n US Senator Drag Question
Post by: Whino83 on October 08, 2021, 06:11:11 PM
I can not answer your mechanical question.  Do these reels have a clicker?  If yes, free spool with the clicker on.  Drag adjusted as desired for landing a fish.

Yes they have a clicker. Free spooled with the clicker will be to light for what Iím needing. I need a sweet spot between free spooled with the clicker and what Iíve got now with the drag backed off with the clicker on.


Title: Re: Penn 113n US Senator Drag Question
Post by: Whino83 on October 08, 2021, 06:39:41 PM
After looking at the schematic again I see there is a spring washer under a spacer on top of the drag stack. It seems like I could possibly flip that spring washer over and that would allow me to have zero drag tension once the star is completely backed off. I may try that later but Iíll wait and see if someone more knowledgeable than me comments here first.


Title: Re: Penn 113n US Senator Drag Question
Post by: handi2 on October 08, 2021, 06:47:05 PM
Yes you can remove a washer below the drag star. If there is one between the star and handle remove it too.

With the reel in freespool is that too fast to cast?

Keith

There are 2 spring washers under the star. I removed but it didnít change the drag pressure at all.

As for casting I grew up casting old pennís with 8 and bait. Iíve did a ton with an old 113H I have. Compared to my old 113H this 113n is a lot better. Iím about to go to a pond near my house and do some more casting now.

Yes you can lessen the height of the drag stack. You just have to make sure the round slave still sticks out enough to have drag pressure.

If you had extra metal washers you could change the thicker top one to a thinner one.


Title: Re: Penn 113n US Senator Drag Question
Post by: RowdyW on October 08, 2021, 07:17:16 PM
You could just use free spool & educate your thumb covered in leather.     Rudy


Title: Re: Penn 113n US Senator Drag Question
Post by: Donnyboat on October 08, 2021, 07:38:39 PM
With the drag, right of I would be concerned, that the eared washer may pop out of the grooves,, then your drag may not work, when needed. Rudy is correct, use free spool & train your finger, to do the work, good luck, cheers Don.


Title: Re: Penn 113n US Senator Drag Question
Post by: RowdyW on October 08, 2021, 09:23:36 PM
Don, this is a U S Senator not a Special Senator. The eared carbon fiber washers do not tend to slip out of the main gear. There are no metal eared washers in the Baja or U S Senator which are almost identical.


Title: Re: Penn 113n US Senator Drag Question
Post by: Whino83 on October 10, 2021, 03:28:42 AM
Using my thumb is out of the question. I pier fish on the east coast for cobia. Which means I throw out a live or dead bait with lots of lead, back my drag off with the clicker on just tight enough so the current doesnít pull line from the spool, and then set the rod down while I go work another cobia rod in the same fashion or go catch bait. So the rod is left unattended and with the current I need to be able to back the drag off to almost free spool during a slack tide and add a little drag as the tide runs. Even if the tide isnít running Iíd never free spool my reel with the clicker on. Cobia hit the bait so hard and fast at times and then immediately spit the bait causing the reel to backlash even with the clicker on and Iíve seen rods go over thr rail before. Backing the drag off keeps the spool from overrunning before I can get to it on a fish that comes in hot to the bait.

To run a test I took the hard plastic washer out from under the main gear and found that to allow me to back the drag off completely which is exactly what I need. But I obviously need that washer in there so I have to put it back in. I wish that plastic washer was thinner. Iíd be in business if it was.


Title: Re: Penn 113n US Senator Drag Question
Post by: Whino83 on October 10, 2021, 03:34:22 AM
I am a machinist and I am at work tonight. I feel like going home and getting the reel, taking it apart, grinding about .010Ē off metal drag washer on top of the stack on a surface grinder, reassembling, and seeing how much of a difference that makes.


Title: Re: Penn 113n US Senator Drag Question
Post by: oldmanjoe on October 10, 2021, 04:03:55 AM
 ???    Is there 3 # 8 tension washers in that stack ?    I think if you remove one or two you should get what you want .


Title: Re: Penn 113n US Senator Drag Question
Post by: Swami805 on October 10, 2021, 10:36:45 AM
Grinding the washers down a little sounds like a good bet, think I'd try that 1st. Maybe a little off each one instead of having one really thin one.


Title: Re: Penn 113n US Senator Drag Question
Post by: Donnyboat on October 10, 2021, 03:41:55 PM
Thanks Rudy, correct, cheers Don.


Title: Re: Penn 113n US Senator Drag Question
Post by: oldmanjoe on October 10, 2021, 03:52:50 PM
???    Is there 3 # 8 tension washers in that stack ?    I think if you remove one or two you should get what you want .
  Another way is to remove the first friction in the bottom of the cup and just start with the steel washer . How thick is a friction and how thick is a steel ?


Title: Re: Penn 113n US Senator Drag Question
Post by: RowdyW on October 10, 2021, 07:31:48 PM
???    Is there 3 # 8 tension washers in that stack ?    I think if you remove one or two you should get what you want .
  Another way is to remove the first friction in the bottom of the cup and just start with the steel washer . How thick is a friction and how thick is a steel ?
Joe, that way you will be rubbing the steel washer on the steel main gear whenever the drag is slipping. A better way would be to remove the top fiber washer & then the top two metal washers will rotate as one.      Rudy


Title: Re: Penn 113n US Senator Drag Question
Post by: oldmanjoe on October 10, 2021, 08:50:07 PM
???    Is there 3 # 8 tension washers in that stack ?    I think if you remove one or two you should get what you want .
  Another way is to remove the first friction in the bottom of the cup and just start with the steel washer . How thick is a friction and how thick is a steel ?
Joe, that way you will be rubbing the steel washer on the steel main gear whenever the drag is slipping. A better way would be to remove the top fiber washer & then the top two metal washers will rotate as one.      Rudy
   Good catch , I should have said pull the steel and go back to back frictions on the bottom.   I wounder what the original start up drag was ?


Title: Re: Penn 113n US Senator Drag Question
Post by: day0ne on October 10, 2021, 11:16:25 PM
A bunch of you seem to be confusing the 113HN with the 113H. The 113HN has the Versa-Drag setup which is different from the setup of a 113H.The total drag on the 113HN can be changed by moving the washers around. Having the metal washer touching the main gear is OK. the following is the different setups for the Versa-Drag:

Light- metal-metal-metal-fiber-fiber-fiber
Medium- metal-fiber-metal-metal-fiber-fiber
Heavy- metal-fiber-metal-fiber-metal-fiber

Remember, these different setups change the total amount of drag. Here is the schematic:

https://www.mysticparts.com/Assets/images/pennparts/schematics/113hn.pdf


Title: Re: Penn 113n US Senator Drag Question
Post by: Swami805 on October 10, 2021, 11:50:11 PM
I think he's looking to reduce the height of the stack since the drag doesn't back off all the way. Making the metal washers thinner should accomplish that with the versa drag or regular 113H.


Title: Re: Penn 113n US Senator Drag Question
Post by: oldmanjoe on October 11, 2021, 12:23:05 AM
     ???     I thought this was the reel  https://www.mysticparts.com/Assets/images/pennparts/schematics/us113n.pdf
     Part #   9 would have been my first choice ,but that ball bearing stumped me .     On the hn schematics # 9 has foot notes  *** .


Title: Re: Penn 113n US Senator Drag Question
Post by: RowdyW on October 11, 2021, 12:25:26 AM


Light- metal-metal-metal-fiber-fiber-fiber
Medium- metal-fiber-metal-metal-fiber-fiber
Heavy- metal-fiber-metal-fiber-metal-fiber




That would be correct if you are counting from the top down. Having a metal washer which is keyed to the gear sleeve would be metal on a free spinning metal gear. You would have to somehow lock the main gear to the metal washer to stop it from grinding metal on metal. It doesn't matter if it's a 113h or a U S Sen. 113, the first washer on the bottom has to be fiber, versa drag or conventional drag.  


Title: Re: Penn 113n US Senator Drag Question
Post by: RowdyW on October 11, 2021, 12:32:50 AM
Joe, #9 is a spacer. The U S 113 has 6 bearings & uses a narrow spacer & the Baja uses narrow spacer on the 6 bearing model & a wide spacer on the older 5 bearing model.


Title: Re: Penn 113n US Senator Drag Question
Post by: jurelometer on October 11, 2021, 12:54:10 AM


     ???     I thought this was the reel  https://www.mysticparts.com/Assets/images/pennparts/schematics/us113n.pdf
     Part #   9 would have been my first choice ,but that ball bearing stumped me .     On the hn schematics # 9 has foot notes  *** .

I agree with Joe.

Maybe I am missing something here, but the 113HN still has a spacer sleeve (key  9 in schematic) like all the Penn star drags.  So why not grind down the spacer to make more stack adjustment clearance, just like any other Penn star drag?  I would say to check that the right length spacer was used, as Penn went to a shorter one after adding a handle shaft bearing in later models of the US Senator/Baja Special. Since this is a new reel, I guess we can assume a correct spacer.  I don't have an old or new  113hn, but the bearing must move in and out with the stack.  The star loads the inner race of the bearing, which pushes on the spacer, and so on.

https://www.mysticparts.com/PennParts/Parts/9N-113HN.aspx

In terms of moving the washers around for versa-drag:  if there are the same number of parts, the stack height is not going to change.  And as others have noted(or was it me? :) ) in past threads - the whole versa-drag rearrangement does not seem beneficial in most, if not all cases.  By reducing the number of drag surfaces, you will get more granular tuning (more rotation of the star per lb of drag added), but to achieve the same level of drag with less surface you will need more clamping force -  more force with less surfaces means less smooth drag.  So it seems that most folks would be better off using the maximum configuration, and just not turning the star quite so far.  I think somebody claimed they liked the versa drag for a charter situation. They arranged the drag to have the lightest setting, so it was harder for the customers to set the drag too high  ::)


I must be missing something...

-J.
 



Title: Re: Penn 113n US Senator Drag Question
Post by: oldmanjoe on October 11, 2021, 12:59:12 AM
Joe, #9 is a spacer. The U S 113 has 6 bearings & uses a narrow spacer & the Baja uses narrow spacer on the 6 bearing model & a wide spacer on the older 5 bearing model.

   If we knew how much he need to get all the drag loose , would you shave the spacer ?       I do not play with all the penn so i am not familiar with all the spacer combinations .  

      Late on the Post button  :)


Title: Re: Penn 113n US Senator Drag Question
Post by: RowdyW on October 11, 2021, 01:09:55 AM
Cutting down the spacer height should work but the spacer sleeve is quite thin in the 6 bearing models.


Title: Re: Penn 113n US Senator Drag Question
Post by: oldmanjoe on October 11, 2021, 01:21:33 AM
     If you back the drag nut off so it hits the handle , then remove the handle .    Take your caliper and measure end of stem to drag nut .  Now back off the drag nut until you get your free spool and remeasure  .   That should give you how much to remove from the sleeve .


Title: Re: Penn 113n US Senator Drag Question
Post by: RowdyW on October 11, 2021, 01:55:00 AM
The top metal drag washer #7H is thicker than the other 3 #7L metal washers. He could replace the #7H with another thinner #7L. Lots of ways to do this.


Title: Re: Penn 113n US Senator Drag Question
Post by: jurelometer on October 11, 2021, 02:07:22 AM
Cutting down the spacer height should work but the spacer sleeve is quite thin in the 6 bearing models.

Ahh.  Got it.

One other thought: since the reels are new, it might be worthwhile to clean out all extra drag grease on the washers, and after reassembling, pull out a bunch of line at a heavy drag  setting.  You might get some more clearance once the drag settles in and or/a bit less friction at lower settings.

The top metal drag washer #7H is thicker than the other 3 #7L metal washers. He could replace the #7H with another thinner #7L. Lots of ways to do this.

I like that idea.

-J


Title: Re: Penn 113n US Senator Drag Question
Post by: RowdyW on October 11, 2021, 02:46:52 AM
So Whino83 now has the options starting from the outside, change cupped washers from () to )), shorten gear sleeve, use thinner top metal drag washer, remove top cf drag washer, grind metal drag washers thinner (he works in a machine shop). That should get him so much clearance that he might have to shorten the guard under the star wheel so it doesn't rub the side plate when drag is tightened down. You have to customize when you want to use a reel different than it was designed for. Casting the way he does with the clicker alarm engaged he had better stock up on clicker tongues & spools. The gear on the spool is only replaceable as a spool assembly. It was only designed as an alarm not a casting aid. Use it any way you want to but don't complain when you are using it beyond design limits. These reels were designed so that the gear sleeve is independent of the bridge post for maximum casting distance. That's what the free spool lever is designed for.


Title: Re: Penn 113n US Senator Drag Question
Post by: Whino83 on October 11, 2021, 06:06:03 AM
I brought the reel into work and thought Iíd try one more thing before I ground one of the washers. I tore the reel down and changed the drag washer arrangement. The owners manual showed a heavy, medium heavy, medium light, and light settings. It was set up heavy from the factory. I changed it to medium heavy. While I had it apart I greased the drag washers with Calís and reassembled the reel. The low end drag did what I wanted it to and it backed off a hair. Itís not quite where I want it but itís so close that I can live with it and be happy.


Title: Re: Penn 113n US Senator Drag Question
Post by: RowdyW on October 22, 2021, 03:45:39 PM
I have two of these reels, a Baja hn & a 113n and I don't like that I can't back the drag off completely either. One of the things that I have done is remove the two coned washers () above the outer bearing & replaced them with another spacer sleeve. Now I can back the drag star off completely . But there is still some drag because the drag stack is to tall. When the bridge with the drag stack is screwed down into the plate the coned washer on top of the drag stack is preloaded against the right plate causing a drag on the spool when the reel is in gear. I'm going to try to lower the drag stack by replacing the top thick metal washer with a thinner one like in the rest of the stack. As some of you might have read in another post there was a problem with getting the thin washers at a reasonable price & now, not next year. The supply problem and possibly the pricing has been resolved. By lowering the drag stack height I hope to get 0 drag while still maintaining the original max drag. I won't quit till I "git er done".       Rudy


Title: Re: Penn 113n US Senator Drag Question
Post by: RowdyW on November 03, 2021, 09:56:28 PM
Now to finish up what I started with the Baja & US 113 reels. I got the thinner metal drag washers. I removed the top thick metal washer & installed two of the thin washers. That reduced the drag stack height by .014" which left a very, very light preload on the side plate. Now the drag on the spool when in gear with the star backed of 100% & a barley touching preload on the drag stack, I am able to drop a weight while in gear & can regulate it with the star wheel. I don't know why Penn Engineering couldn't or want to do it. I feel like "I GOT ER DONE". If anybody has other ideas please let me know. The Baja & US 113's are great star drag reels that just need a little nudging in the right direction IMO.            Rudy


Title: Re: Penn 113n US Senator Drag Question
Post by: steelfish on November 05, 2021, 01:11:11 AM
Rowdy

I put a Delrin washer under the main gear and another at the top of the drag stack per Sal recommendation and as expected with the additional washer at the top the star cant be backed off completely, since I knew this was going to happen it didnt bothered me, heck I even like it because I can pull like from the reel with some tension when I want to put the reel and pass the line through the guides when preparing to fish with it  ;D ;D

any special reason why you need zero drag with the star backed off ?

I havent measured how much drag # is on my reel with the star backed off completely but Im sure any weight bigger than 6oz will pull line easily