Came across this guy who builds jigs and seems to be clued in to the West Coast fishery. Haven't bought any yet, but the jigs look good in the pictures, what are your thoughts. Bill
https://pontchartrainjigs.com/
Hey Bill,
Everybody and their brother is starting a mom and pop vertical jig company in the USA. Pretty much all Chinese product. If they don't say anything about an original design or get the terminology a bit wrong, it is usually a Chinese buy and resell. Some are pretty close copies of the hard to get and expensive Japanese brands, and some are just some weird shaped stuff nicely wrapped in holo foil and clear coated.
Ponchatrain is also selling plastic poppers. I doubt some mom and pop are injection molding their own lures. My guess is not their own designs. I don't recognize the jigs as copies of famous brand models, but I am not a vertical jig groupie. You can always contact them and ask whether they drew up their own designs or "selected" some if you are curious.
Having said that, it doesn't matter too much on who makes the jigs, as long as they use a hard alloy and they have pilfered a good design. The big and small brands all seem to have a mediocre reputation for holding onto finish well (not that it matters much to the fish :) ). If these guys have a good rep for delivering product and catching fish, and you can get them for a good price... parts is parts.
Not a fan of swivels in place of assist cord on the rigged lures, but I am not a jumbo tuna chaser.
-J
Repackaged China made knockoffs, their "speed jigs" are pure plagiarization of a Jigging Master product.
With the popularity rising in slow pitch jigging lately people are trying to make advantage of a market with little distribution of quality jigs from overseas, so they get whatever from Aliaba & eBay and call it their own.
I've worked with the cheap stuff and the real deal and just from productivity alone there's just no comparison. Seafloor Control, SeaFalcon, Jigging Master, and Deepliner (some of the designs being copied) have put in years of research & testing of design, materials, and performance, that others have not, and from my experience that makes all the difference in the world.
Quote from: the rockfish ninja on April 05, 2022, 09:35:13 PMRepackaged China made knockoffs, their "speed jigs" are pure plagiarization of a Jigging Master product.
With the popularity rising in slow pitch jigging lately people are trying to make advantage of a market with little distribution of quality jigs from overseas, so they get whatever from Aliaba & eBay and call it their own.
I've worked with the cheap stuff and the real deal and just from productivity alone there's just no comparison. Seafloor Control, SeaFalcon, Jigging Master, and Deepliner (some of the designs being copied) have put in years of research & testing of design, materials, and performance, that others have not, and from my experience that makes all the difference in the world.
[Skipping the moral aspects of knockoffs for this post, and focusing on effectiveness]
While there are definitely some garbage jigs out there, I have to respectfully disagree with with the premium stuff vs everything else position. First of all, it is nearly impossible to differentiate based on materials for vertical jigs. All hard lead jigs will be practically identical in density at about 92-95% of the density of unalloyed lead, which is the cheapest material to use, but can bend and dent. So materials will not meaningfully affect action, especially if the jig is hard lead.
My own experiments in tweaking vertical jig designs have convinced me that minor dimensional changes do not have a effect on action. It takes a very visible change in shape to make a difference in action. Very different than the situation with hardbait mods. So any hard lead knockoff that is a reasonably close dimensional match for the original is going to perform the same.
I could be wrong, but I would be shocked if any of the esteemed vertical jig brands went though real R&D efforts, like leveraging fluid dynamics modelling to create product that performed within predefined specifications, and then went out and performed controlled fishing tests against competing products in a variety of conditions.
More likely, some guy cooked up a unique looking jig with an iteration or three of tuning. After word of mouth/promotion garnered some attention, a product line was filled out, and presto-change-o, a new jig company is born.
There is always demand for the new "hot" lure, but few stand the test of time. Maybe our unborn grandkids will be fishing the original Seafloor Control Gawky, like we are fishing today with the Salas 6xJr model that Grandpa fished 50 years ago, but those are some pretty long odds.
It is also hard when fishing relatively infrequently to avoid confirmation bias in terms of evaluating the relative productivity of lures. The first thing you have to do with a hot lure is to switch it out to find out what is not working. Who does that, especially if you are getting out once a week or less? :) Not doubting what folks may be observing, just whether it is statistically significant.
Your resident contrarian,
-J
My take on the knock off jigs, first is the hardware, is it stout or will it pull out of the jig. Second is those little differences in shape that give it a slightly different action. Some days the fish are on fire and will eat every jig, some days they have lock jaw and won't touch a thing, then the days when a couple guys are doing well and the rest not so much, those are the days when it could matter. I know with surface iron some swim and some don't.the little differences are what give it that little kick that gets the fish to eat it instead of just following it. Maybe save a few bucks on the knock-off and they could be fine or not
Quote from: jurelometer on April 06, 2022, 04:14:05 AMQuote from: the rockfish ninja on April 05, 2022, 09:35:13 PMRepackaged China made knockoffs, their "speed jigs" are pure plagiarization of a Jigging Master product.
With the popularity rising in slow pitch jigging lately people are trying to make advantage of a market with little distribution of quality jigs from overseas, so they get whatever from Aliaba & eBay and call it their own.
I've worked with the cheap stuff and the real deal and just from productivity alone there's just no comparison. Seafloor Control, SeaFalcon, Jigging Master, and Deepliner (some of the designs being copied) have put in years of research & testing of design, materials, and performance, that others have not, and from my experience that makes all the difference in the world.
I could be wrong
That, I agree with.
You can go on with a long winded contrarian debate but I'm not going to sift thru all that, too much to read to try to get a simple statement.
You might want to do some research on the mfgs I mentioned and the subject of slow pitch jigging (which these are knockoffs of) before trying to dissect this.
Here's a link that might help you get started to understand these jigs better.
https://www.anglers-secrets.com/slow-pitch-jigging/
I base my views on this subject from years of results, as I have been doing this method *exclusively* for almost a decade, and am probably the most experienced at this in the SF bay area.
My 2 shiny coppers...
In the case of the site listed, I'd say 99% sure they're just buying Chinese jigs and possibly having them branded, or they'll show up completely generic and just say "200g" on the side. The "Pebble" jigs are a complete copy of the Shimano Ocea Pebble Stick, even extremely similar graphics.
The "Speed jigs" look a lot like the classic Jigging Master Fallings jig.
So. As to whether it makes a difference..........
For "mechanical jig"... I'm going to say largely no, as the action is probably 80% angler, 10% rod, 8% other factors like line weight and water conditions, 2% jig. My most successful jig is a cheap, soft, off-brand thing that doesn't look quite like any other jig I've tried before.
The overall shape of the jig makes an enormous difference to performance; small variations seem to do very little. I also don't think hardness is actually important - the way we rig for MJ means the jig never takes any load; if the jig gets bent and dented, oh well, more action? :fish
For SPJ, it gets more complicated. The primary action is in the "fall" and all else being equal, this is much more influenced by the shape of the jig and even small variations.
What I will give to the japanese originators is that they are actually doing R&D. They are out fishing their lures, and there is a feedback loop. It's probably not terribly scientific but their pro team anglers and sponsored charter skippers will be out fishing the lures almost every day, so the feedback probably has higher quality than "anecdotal".
This differs from the Chinese companies producing the lures, who, chances are, have never held a fishing rod, and have no intention to. They take a known successful product, copy it to a reasonable standard, and hope it sells by virtue of the low price.
Setting morals completely aside for a moment, a reasonably good quality copy of a "developed" jig will, to my mind, perform similarly.
Quote from: the rockfish ninja on April 06, 2022, 07:02:25 AMQuoteI could be wrong
That, I agree with.
You can go on with a long winded contrarian debate but I'm not going to sift thru all that, too much to read to try to get a simple statement.
I think that the way that message boards are supposed to work is that you actually read the post that the other other person wrote before responding. It makes for a more credible response.
QuoteYou might want to do some research on the mfgs I mentioned and the subject of slow pitch jigging (which these are knockoffs of) before trying to dissect this.
Here's a link that might help you get started to understand these jigs better.
https://www.anglers-secrets.com/slow-pitch-jigging/
I base my views on this subject from years of results, as I have been doing this method *exclusively* for almost a decade, and am probably the most experienced at this in the SF bay area.
You are making assumptions. I did my research a long time ago.
I have been designing and building lures for quite awhile now. By using CAD/CAM techniques, I was able to test the effects of minor and major variations of a couple of these new style jigs with some accuracy. For science (not resale), I cloned a famous flatfall starting with nothing but a pair a calipers and a CAD program. The final finished jig came out pretty close to exact in dimensions, weight and center of mass. Looks like exactly the same action to me, as well. My experiments have led to my position that cloning these jigs fairly exactly is not very difficult, and small deviations in shape do not have much effect.
I do test/fish my jigs too. Lots more than some jigging "experts" (which I make no claim to be). The pandemic shut me down for awhile, but I was out bouncing this baby today:
(https://alantani.com/gallery/36/11927-070422011700.jpeg)
What I need to learn much more about are the nuances of actually fishing the jigs. But so far, the folks that I have bumped into in this corner of the world are either not that experienced, annoying self proclaimed experts, or both :)
Quote from: boon on April 07, 2022, 01:09:13 AMMy 2 shiny coppers...
In the case of the site listed, I'd say 99% sure they're just buying Chinese jigs and possibly having them branded, or they'll show up completely generic and just say "200g" on the side. The "Pebble" jigs are a complete copy of the Shimano Ocea Pebble Stick, even extremely similar graphics.
The "Speed jigs" look a lot like the classic Jigging Master Fallings jig.
So. As to whether it makes a difference..........
For "mechanical jig"... I'm going to say largely no, as the action is probably 80% angler, 10% rod, 8% other factors like line weight and water conditions, 2% jig. My most successful jig is a cheap, soft, off-brand thing that doesn't look quite like any other jig I've tried before.
The overall shape of the jig makes an enormous difference to performance; small variations seem to do very little. I also don't think hardness is actually important - the way we rig for MJ means the jig never takes any load; if the jig gets bent and dented, oh well, more action? :fish
For SPJ, it gets more complicated. The primary action is in the "fall" and all else being equal, this is much more influenced by the shape of the jig and even small variations.
What I will give to the japanese originators is that they are actually doing R&D. They are out fishing their lures, and there is a feedback loop. It's probably not terribly scientific but their pro team anglers and sponsored charter skippers will be out fishing the lures almost every day, so the feedback probably has higher quality than "anecdotal".
This differs from the Chinese companies producing the lures, who, chances are, have never held a fishing rod, and have no intention to. They take a known successful product, copy it to a reasonable standard, and hope it sells by virtue of the low price.
Setting morals completely aside for a moment, a reasonably good quality copy of a "developed" jig will, to my mind, perform similarly.
Well said, and mostly agree. That product feedback loop you described is actually textbook anecdotal :) My tests indicated that what I would call small variations did not affect action, but we would probably have to agree on a definition of a small variation.
-J
I didn't mean to stir up the hornets nest. With a 3 day bluefin trip coming up I was looking for some knife (?) jigs and liked what I saw. I will admit I know next to nothing about that kind of fishing. The link provided gives much more information than I can digest in one sitting but I will make it through. Maybe I should just stick with fly lines and dropper loops. Bill
Quote from: Bill B (Tarfu) on April 07, 2022, 03:25:34 AMI didn't mean to stir up the hornets nest. With a 3 day bluefin trip coming up I was looking for some knife (?) jigs and liked what I saw. I will admit I know next to nothing about that kind of fishing. The link provided gives much more information than I can digest in one sitting but I will make it through. Maybe I should just stick with fly lines and dropper loops. Bill
Bill if you want them then buy them! I have several knockoff jigs I plan on fishing in a couple weeks. As long as they're through-wired you'll be good to go.
If I see any Rip Rollers you want me to pick them up for you?
Thank you for the offer brother...let me wait to hear your report before I buy anything. Bill
Quote from: jurelometer on April 07, 2022, 02:21:47 AMQuote from: the rockfish ninja on April 06, 2022, 07:02:25 AMQuoteI could be wrong
That, I agree with.
You can go on with a long winded contrarian debate but I'm not going to sift thru all that, too much to read to try to get a simple statement.
I think that the way that message boards are supposed to work is that you actually read the post that the other other person wrote before responding. It makes for a more credible response.
QuoteYou might want to do some research on the mfgs I mentioned and the subject of slow pitch jigging (which these are knockoffs of) before trying to dissect this.
Here's a link that might help you get started to understand these jigs better.
https://www.anglers-secrets.com/slow-pitch-jigging/
I base my views on this subject from years of results, as I have been doing this method *exclusively* for almost a decade, and am probably the most experienced at this in the SF bay area.
You are making assumptions. I did my research a long time ago.
I have been designing and building lures for quite awhile now. By using CAD/CAM techniques, I was able to test the effects of minor and major variations of a couple of these new style jigs with some accuracy. For science (not resale), I cloned a famous flatfall starting with nothing but a pair a calipers and a CAD program. The final finished jig came out pretty close to exact in dimensions, weight and center of mass. Looks like exactly the same action to me, as well. My experiments have led to my position that cloning these jigs fairly exactly is not very difficult, and small deviations in shape do not have much effect.
I do test/fish my jigs too. Lots more than some jigging "experts" (which I make no claim to be). The pandemic shut me down for awhile, but I was out bouncing this baby today:
(https://alantani.com/gallery/36/11927-070422011700.jpeg)
What I need to learn much more about are the nuances of actually fishing the jigs. But so far, the folks that I have bumped into in this corner of the world are either not that experienced, annoying self proclaimed experts, or both :)
Quote from: boon on April 07, 2022, 01:09:13 AMMy 2 shiny coppers...
In the case of the site listed, I'd say 99% sure they're just buying Chinese jigs and possibly having them branded, or they'll show up completely generic and just say "200g" on the side. The "Pebble" jigs are a complete copy of the Shimano Ocea Pebble Stick, even extremely similar graphics.
The "Speed jigs" look a lot like the classic Jigging Master Fallings jig.
So. As to whether it makes a difference..........
For "mechanical jig"... I'm going to say largely no, as the action is probably 80% angler, 10% rod, 8% other factors like line weight and water conditions, 2% jig. My most successful jig is a cheap, soft, off-brand thing that doesn't look quite like any other jig I've tried before.
The overall shape of the jig makes an enormous difference to performance; small variations seem to do very little. I also don't think hardness is actually important - the way we rig for MJ means the jig never takes any load; if the jig gets bent and dented, oh well, more action? :fish
For SPJ, it gets more complicated. The primary action is in the "fall" and all else being equal, this is much more influenced by the shape of the jig and even small variations.
What I will give to the japanese originators is that they are actually doing R&D. They are out fishing their lures, and there is a feedback loop. It's probably not terribly scientific but their pro team anglers and sponsored charter skippers will be out fishing the lures almost every day, so the feedback probably has higher quality than "anecdotal".
This differs from the Chinese companies producing the lures, who, chances are, have never held a fishing rod, and have no intention to. They take a known successful product, copy it to a reasonable standard, and hope it sells by virtue of the low price.
Setting morals completely aside for a moment, a reasonably good quality copy of a "developed" jig will, to my mind, perform similarly.
Well said, and mostly agree. That product feedback loop you described is actually textbook anecdotal :) My tests indicated that what I would call small variations did not affect action, but we would probably have to agree on a definition of a small variation.
-J
TBH I'm just not going to read thru paragraphs from someone who's not fully versed on the subject, especially if it's a long tedious roundabout way to call me a liar, and copying a flat fall, the previous and less refined generation of these jigs from 20 yrs ago, doesn't really qualify much as "research". As this thread shows, the knockoff makers in China do that every day.
If you took the time to read up on the subject of SPJ, the link I provided, and the mfgs I suggested, you should end up with a deeper knowledge and wider view on this.
All I was doing is pointing you to the water, it's up to you to drink.
Well anyway thanks for the posts on this. A healthy debate, spiced with some ego, and I get to learn some stuff where there was a big knowledge gap before.
I'd prolly go for the cheap jigs first, until I start to succeed, then look for the better quality and more expensive ones. It's to painful to lose expensive stuff. Can't help but think that dressing the SPJ's up a bit might make them more effective when they are fished that "slowly".
Hey Ninja,
The thing that I like about this place is that the many of our members are willing to respectfully debate on fishing topics. It rarely devolves into a personal feuds.
The personal stuff is poison, as it drives folks to the sidelines that would otherwise contribute.
Once more for the record, I have long ago read up on the site that you have mentioned, the vendor sites, and others. I have played with some of what you refer to as the modern designs, but admit to buying the clones that have a reputation for accurate reproduction. I think it is valid criticism to say that I have not fished with enough different models to make any sweeping assertions, but that is sort of besides the original point of this thread.
Disagreeing with someone's position on the merits (e.g., best materials vs all the same materials, anecdotal vs experimental observations) should be fair game in my view. Rudeness, not so much.
Feel free to fire away at the MERITS of anything I post (I appreciate being shown where I am wrong - I learn at your expense :) ), or ignore. Your choice.
BTW- the "annoying self proclaimed experts" comment was referring to the way-too-many wannabee USA "jigging influencers" out there. My apologies if you thought I was referring to anyone in particular.
Hopefully we can bury the hatchet here.
-J
Quote from: jurelometer on April 07, 2022, 05:21:45 PMHey Ninja,
The thing that I like about this place is that the many of our members are willing to respectfully debate on fishing topics. It rarely devolves into a personal feuds.
The personal stuff is poison, as it drives folks to the sidelines that would otherwise contribute.
Once more for the record, I have long ago read up on the site that you have mentioned, the vendor sites, and others. I have played with some of what you refer to as the modern designs, but admit to buying the clones that have a reputation for accurate reproduction. I think it is valid criticism to say that I have not fished with enough different models to make any sweeping assertions, but that is sort of besides the original point of this thread.
Disagreeing with someone's position on the merits (e.g., best materials vs all the same materials, anecdotal vs experimental observations) should be fair game in my view. Rudeness, not so much.
Feel free to fire away at the MERITS of anything I post (I appreciate being shown where I am wrong - I learn at your expense :) ), or ignore. Your choice.
BTW- the "annoying self proclaimed experts" comment was referring to the way-too-many wannabee USA "jigging influencers" out there. My apologies if you thought I was referring to anyone in particular.
Hopefully we can bury the hatchet here.
-J
Accepted, and yes that statement I felt was (in)directed toward me, but please understand the SPJ "influencers" are people like me and Benny Ortiz (the foremost angler in this field in the USA, and the guy that got me started in this several years ago).
I'm not here to fire away at the merits of anything you or anyone here posts, all I do is share the knowledge I've gained from being dedicated to SPJ *exclusively* for several fishing seasons. You've seen my reports over the years, it's all I do.
As my olive branch, this is my collection right now, if you want to know about any of them and how they've performed for productivity, and their use in different current conditions, just ask.
(https://i.ibb.co/GW7r4TT/20220328-194617.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ByLY5NN)
PS - As for learning the subtleties of how to work these jigs more effectively, the angler secrets site has tons on that, also look up Benny Ortiz on youtube. He's done some tutorials, and they're in english, both he & I had to learn from videos from Japan that seldom had english subtitles.
Quote from: Gfish on April 07, 2022, 03:30:55 PMWell anyway thanks for the posts on this. A healthy debate, spiced with some ego, and I get to learn some stuff where there was a big knowledge gap before.
I'd prolly go for the cheap jigs first, until I start to succeed, then look for the better quality and more expensive ones. It's to painful to lose expensive stuff. Can't help but think that dressing the SPJ's up a bit might make them more effective when they are fished that "slowly".
That's a strategy, just keep in mind the more effective jigs you use will directly effect how successful you are.
I lose approx 3-5 jigs a season and considering you'd probably spend more than that in bait per year, it evens out.
There are also methods to keep snags & hangups to a minimum, and reduce losing gear to the granite groupers. The most important is to stay vertical and not let your line go past the drift. When your line is at too much of an angle that's when you lose jigs.
Could you give me a little information on the 6 jigs on the right side of the second row? I.E. brand, weight, rigging, and possible use as a tuna jig. Bill
Ah-ha!, the angle thing. Sounds like me, wanting to keep my jig close as I can to the bottom for as long as I can—-oops. Thanks ninja.
Quote from: Bill B (Tarfu) on April 07, 2022, 07:41:02 PMCould you give me a little information on the 6 jigs on the right side of the second row? I.E. brand, weight, rigging, and possible use as a tuna jig. Bill
From left to right: Feed Flint, Jackall anchovy I, & II, Jygpro Stryke black, silver, Williamson Kensaki.
The first 3 I just got recently, haven't tried, the Jygpro black did really well on Lings last year, gets down to the bottom quick too, which helps on fast windy drifts. Kensaki too for Lings & big rockfish.
The SPJ anglers in Florida regularly use these for tuna and other pelagics.
As for rigging, there's options, I've been starting out with one assist hook at the top and adding a bottom hook if I'm not sticking all my hookups. The website I linked has a lot of detailed info on that stuff.
Weight, the rule of thumb is one gram per foot of depth, which can be adjusted for currents & conditions, and these jigs are slim enough and drop down so fast that you can get away with using a lighter jig and still have a good amount of vertical time.
Bill these jigs (Williamson Kensaki) have been getting bit well the last few years. You might have an easier time finding them in stock over the rip rollers.....
For what it's worth, I would advocate using cheap jigs while you get started. I probably lost more jigs in my first year of regularly jig fishing than I have in all the subsequent years combined.
They remain a staple of my jig bag - partly because some of them I just like, and partly because sometimes I know there are schools of very toothy critters around and there is a much higher chance of losing jigs in a way that I have no influence over. I'd rather have $15 of hardware snipped off than $40.
Thank you.
I think I know the answer, but a knife jig sinks faster than a flat fall.
So I could get a 350 gram knife jig to sink faster than a 350 gram flat fall due to the shape.
Last year in June, I could not get a 350 gram FF to stay straight up and down and after 5 minutes I was nearly trolling the jig due to wind and current.
So with everything else being the same, i.e. main line and jig weight, with a knife jig I could get down faster into the fish zone and stay longer in the zone. Bill
Quote from: Bill B (Tarfu) on April 07, 2022, 09:58:38 PMThank you.
I think I know the answer, but a knife jig sinks faster than a flat fall.
So I could get a 350 gram knife jig to sink faster than a 350 gram flat fall due to the shape.
Last year in June, I could not get a 350 gram FF to stay straight up and down and after 5 minutes I was nearly trolling the jig due to wind and current.
So with everything else being the same, i.e. main line and jig weight, with a knife jig I could get down faster into the fish zone and stay longer in the zone. Bill
I'm no expert but the answer is yes. You can also add a tiny bit of thumb pressure to the spool as you drop the ff and it won't flutter as much and get into the zone quicker.
I heard guys last year were completely stopping their jigs for up to 30 seconds mid fall in the bite zone and were getting bit deadsticking their jigs....
Thanks brother...
I appreciate being challenged. I like debate. Debate is useful I for testing assumptions and learning from both sides.
The Sensei/student model- meh ... I am interested more in the "why" of it.
QuoteAs my olive branch, this is my collection right now, if you want to know about any of them and how they've performed for productivity, and their use in different current conditions, just ask.
I am kinda curious about those ridges on the jigs in the top row (Secret Rector?). Supposedly they are there to reduce resistance on the lift (maybe like a stepped boat hull), but I am curious if those ridges actually do anything noticeable on the lift. BTW, the Rector is REALLY easy to to draw up a clone for. Heard it from a friend :)
There is an interesting discussion to be had on what design changes actually affect jig action significantly. I know a little from my experiments, but that is it. What these jig companies do know, they don't seem to share.
QuotePS - As for learning the subtleties of how to work these jigs more effectively, the angler secrets site has tons on that, also look up Benny Ortiz on youtube. He's done some tutorials, and they're in english, both he & I had to learn from videos from Japan that seldom had english subtitles.
Thanks. I wish there was more footage of jigs being worked in real conditions. Read about Benny Ortiz before. It is hard to weed through what matters. From Ortiz in a Saltwater Sportsman article:
"Be mindful to push the rod outward during the lift, to help direct the jig. Then let the jig flutter down..."If the rod is pushed out a whole foot, and the jig is 100 feet down, in the best case scenario, you are changing the line angle on the jig around half a degree. It should make no difference.
Not saying that a real slow pitch expert wouldn't easily outfish me using the same gear, and I am sure that they believe in what they are preaching but...
We should lock one in a room with a fluid dynamics expert and go over the lures, equipment, and technique. And then a visual marine biologist to go over lure shape, color,decorative patterns, and movement. I would pay to watch that :)
-J
Quote from: jurelometer on April 07, 2022, 11:23:50 PMI appreciate being challenged. I like debate. Debate is useful I for testing assumptions and learning from both sides.
The Sensei/student model- meh ... I am interested more in the "why" of it.
QuoteAs my olive branch, this is my collection right now, if you want to know about any of them and how they've performed for productivity, and their use in different current conditions, just ask.
I am kinda curious about those ridges on the jigs in the top row (Secret Rector?). Supposedly they are there to reduce resistance on the lift (maybe like a stepped boat hull), but I am curious if those ridges actually do anything noticeable on the lift. BTW, the Rector is REALLY easy to to draw up a clone for. Heard it from a friend :)
There is an interesting discussion to be had on what design changes actually affect jig action significantly. I know a little from my experiments, but that is it. What these jig companies do know, they don't seem to share.
QuotePS - As for learning the subtleties of how to work these jigs more effectively, the angler secrets site has tons on that, also look up Benny Ortiz on youtube. He's done some tutorials, and they're in english, both he & I had to learn from videos from Japan that seldom had english subtitles.
Thanks. I wish there was more footage of jigs being worked in real conditions. Read about Benny Ortiz before. It is hard to weed through what matters. From Ortiz in a Saltwater Sportsman article:
"Be mindful to push the rod outward during the lift, to help direct the jig. Then let the jig flutter down..."
If the rod is pushed out a whole foot, and the jig is 100 feet down, in the best case scenario, you are changing the line angle on the jig around half a degree. It should make no difference.
Not saying that a real slow pitch expert wouldn't easily outfish me using the same gear, and I am sure that they believe in what they are preaching but...
We should lock one in a room with a fluid dynamics expert and go over the lures, equipment, and technique. And then a visual marine biologist to go over lure shape, color,decorative patterns, and movement. I would pay to watch that :)
-J
I'm glad you asked about those, they are the SFC Cranky, one of my most productive jigs, designed by Norihiro Sato Himself (the founding pioneer of this method). The ridges and shape are specified as an irregular or erratic movement jig, to really grab the attention of predators. For what I do, jigging in murky water, it's the best for that and considered an easy jig to get good movement with.
The Seafloor Control website has very detailed info on all their jigs although most of it is in Japanese, but it has underwater videos of the movements, and charts on the hydrodynamic research they've done.
(https://i.ibb.co/Hx5SNwj/sfc-falling-A-jpg.webp) (https://imgbb.com/)
The Pink/smoke jig next to them is a Rector, effective lure, but best in very calm conditions with less current. I believe it was the first true SPJ, secret Rector isn't far off from it in design, but not a good jig for NorCal waters so it doesn't get a lot of use.
As for technique, there's a lot of room for adaptation, and what anglers do in other fisheries and environments may not work well here and vice versa, and there's things Benny & I don't even agree on, but I just have a healthy respect for someone with more experience than I do. I spent 2 years of intense training in Korea so I don't have a problem with being a, or learning from a Sensei. :al
That's why I don't come here for debate, just to gain and share knowledge, I actually met Alan years before ever joining this forum and even then have always considered him the Sensei.
Quote from: pjstevko on April 07, 2022, 10:53:55 PMQuote from: Bill B (Tarfu) on April 07, 2022, 09:58:38 PMThank you.
I think I know the answer, but a knife jig sinks faster than a flat fall.
So I could get a 350 gram knife jig to sink faster than a 350 gram flat fall due to the shape.
Last year in June, I could not get a 350 gram FF to stay straight up and down and after 5 minutes I was nearly trolling the jig due to wind and current.
So with everything else being the same, i.e. main line and jig weight, with a knife jig I could get down faster into the fish zone and stay longer in the zone. Bill
I'm no expert but the answer is yes. You can also add a tiny bit of thumb pressure to the spool as you drop the ff and it won't flutter as much and get into the zone quicker.
I heard guys last year were completely stopping their jigs for up to 30 seconds mid fall in the bite zone and were getting bit deadsticking their jigs....
The Japanese domestic model Ocea Jigger even has a new fall tension device feature, so yes, tension on the drop prevents flutter and gets down quicker.
Safe to say I have more knowledge now but more confused. With the formation this thread has produced I will have to sit down with a notepad, a pot of coffee :cf , and put my student hat on. Heck, I was sorting out my hooks, and got confused.
I do consider it a winning day to walk into the bathroom and remember why I went there in the first place.
Please keep the information coming, let's see if we can sow some doubt in PJ before his trip next week. bwwwhahahahahahaha 😂. Bill
Quote from: Bill B (Tarfu) on April 08, 2022, 06:52:03 AMSafe to say I have more knowledge now but more confused.
I know that feeling :P :P
Quote from: jurelometer on April 07, 2022, 02:21:47 AMQuote from: the rockfish ninja on April 06, 2022, 07:02:25 AMQuoteI could be wrong
That, I agree with.
You can go on with a long winded contrarian debate but I'm not going to sift thru all that, too much to read to try to get a simple statement.
I think that the way that message boards are supposed to work is that you actually read the post that the other other person wrote before responding. It makes for a more credible response.
QuoteYou might want to do some research on the mfgs I mentioned and the subject of slow pitch jigging (which these are knockoffs of) before trying to dissect this.
Here's a link that might help you get started to understand these jigs better.
https://www.anglers-secrets.com/slow-pitch-jigging/
I base my views on this subject from years of results, as I have been doing this method *exclusively* for almost a decade, and am probably the most experienced at this in the SF bay area.
You are making assumptions. I did my research a long time ago.
I have been designing and building lures for quite awhile now. By using CAD/CAM techniques, I was able to test the effects of minor and major variations of a couple of these new style jigs with some accuracy. For science (not resale), I cloned a famous flatfall starting with nothing but a pair a calipers and a CAD program. The final finished jig came out pretty close to exact in dimensions, weight and center of mass. Looks like exactly the same action to me, as well. My experiments have led to my position that cloning these jigs fairly exactly is not very difficult, and small deviations in shape do not have much effect.
I do test/fish my jigs too. Lots more than some jigging "experts" (which I make no claim to be). The pandemic shut me down for awhile, but I was out bouncing this baby today:
(https://alantani.com/gallery/36/11927-070422011700.jpeg)
What I need to learn much more about are the nuances of actually fishing the jigs. But so far, the folks that I have bumped into in this corner of the world are either not that experienced, annoying self proclaimed experts, or both :)
Quote from: boon on April 07, 2022, 01:09:13 AMMy 2 shiny coppers...
In the case of the site listed, I'd say 99% sure they're just buying Chinese jigs and possibly having them branded, or they'll show up completely generic and just say "200g" on the side. The "Pebble" jigs are a complete copy of the Shimano Ocea Pebble Stick, even extremely similar graphics.
The "Speed jigs" look a lot like the classic Jigging Master Fallings jig.
So. As to whether it makes a difference..........
For "mechanical jig"... I'm going to say largely no, as the action is probably 80% angler, 10% rod, 8% other factors like line weight and water conditions, 2% jig. My most successful jig is a cheap, soft, off-brand thing that doesn't look quite like any other jig I've tried before.
The overall shape of the jig makes an enormous difference to performance; small variations seem to do very little. I also don't think hardness is actually important - the way we rig for MJ means the jig never takes any load; if the jig gets bent and dented, oh well, more action? :fish
For SPJ, it gets more complicated. The primary action is in the "fall" and all else being equal, this is much more influenced by the shape of the jig and even small variations.
What I will give to the japanese originators is that they are actually doing R&D. They are out fishing their lures, and there is a feedback loop. It's probably not terribly scientific but their pro team anglers and sponsored charter skippers will be out fishing the lures almost every day, so the feedback probably has higher quality than "anecdotal".
This differs from the Chinese companies producing the lures, who, chances are, have never held a fishing rod, and have no intention to. They take a known successful product, copy it to a reasonable standard, and hope it sells by virtue of the low price.
Setting morals completely aside for a moment, a reasonably good quality copy of a "developed" jig will, to my mind, perform similarly.
Well said, and mostly agree. That product feedback loop you described is actually textbook anecdotal :) My tests indicated that what I would call small variations did not affect action, but we would probably have to agree on a definition of a small variation.
-J
They are too long winded and full of useless information. Who really needs this? It's just fishing related. Not science ;)
Keith
Quote from: handi2 on April 13, 2022, 02:44:13 PMThey are too long winded and full of useless information. Who really needs this? It's just fishing related. Not science ;)
Keith
Respectfully, I think their post contributed more to the thread than yours did. Longwinded or otherwise.
I don't really get the need to effectively dissuade other members from contributing.