I do a lot of ultra light tackle fishing in New Zealand using small spinning reels (Okuma VS30 & 40's) or baitcasters (Abu 5600C's). Most of the fishing is done casting baits into a burley trail whilst at anchor. The problem has always been not knowing what drag you have at any given time, especially when you have a good fish on which has pulled out a heap of line and you have to back the drag right off until that first run has stopped.
Ideally I would love to have a small castable lever drag reel with a suitable drag curve for 1 and 2 kg mono, i.e. for 1 kg line 0.3kg at strike and 0.5kg at sunset (0.7 and 1.0 kg respectively for 2kg line), plus the drag slowly backs off until it disengages into free spool. Is there any such lever drag reel oput there, or an existing one that can be modified to meet this requirement.
I have a little Avet SXJ 5.3 MC with a South Florida Cam Insert but the drag curve is still way to harsh for even 2kg line, but good for 6kg mono.
I would assume nothing off the shelf. Maybe if you grind a custom cam in the SXJ.
a rare vintage Shimano Fightin'Drag lo-pro might work STOCK
never had one in-hand, but assume it's same concept as Fightin'Drag spinners I know well
there's a second[ary] drag control Lever that nudges the main drag setting in small increments
on spinners you get approx 0.5 kg range between Fightin'Lever max/min... don't know the baitcasters
https://www.ebay.com/itm/393675905060?hash=item5ba8e99824:g:wOsAAOSwDJNhhHJx (https://www.ebay.com/itm/393675905060?hash=item5ba8e99824:g:wOsAAOSwDJNhhHJx)
don't overspend -- despite being rare, they can be cheap because they're not well known & butt-UGLY :o
https://www.ebay.com/itm/144443347428?hash=item21a17e91e4%3Ag%3AYbMAAOSwk-tiITAN&nma=true&si=ZByBN5azgk5xl3y1wMWIeZnXb4I%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/144443347428?hash=item21a17e91e4%3Ag%3AYbMAAOSwk-tiITAN&nma=true&si=ZByBN5azgk5xl3y1wMWIeZnXb4I%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557)
Quote from: philaroman on May 07, 2022, 05:05:15 AMa rare vintage Shimano Fightin'Drag lo-pro might work STOCK
never had one in-hand, but assume it's same concept as Fightin'Drag spinners I know well
there's a second[ary] drag control Lever that nudges the main drag setting in small increments
on spinners you get approx 0.5 kg range between Fightin'Lever max/min... don't know the baitcasters
https://www.ebay.com/itm/393675905060?hash=item5ba8e99824:g:wOsAAOSwDJNhhHJx (https://www.ebay.com/itm/393675905060?hash=item5ba8e99824:g:wOsAAOSwDJNhhHJx)
don't overspend -- despite being rare, they can be cheap because they're not well known & butt-UGLY :o
https://www.ebay.com/itm/144443347428?hash=item21a17e91e4%3Ag%3AYbMAAOSwk-tiITAN&nma=true&si=ZByBN5azgk5xl3y1wMWIeZnXb4I%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/144443347428?hash=item21a17e91e4%3Ag%3AYbMAAOSwk-tiITAN&nma=true&si=ZByBN5azgk5xl3y1wMWIeZnXb4I%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557)
Thanks for that, I had forgotten about those shimano reels with the fighting drag on them, would be interesting to see how smooth the drags are, as they have to be silky smooth for 1 & 2 kg line.
If you want to cast one to two kg mono, I don't think that you are going to find much bliss with a lever drag.
Why not just put some index marks on the star of your abu that align with the edge of the handle arm at the desired drag settings? I used to do this with star drag reels back when I thought that fine tuning the drag settings was important.
And of course, if heaps of line are being taken from the spool, the effective spool diameter is decreasing, so returning to the original drag setting at the end of a run means that you are actually now using a higher effective drag setting. Half the spool diameter means twice the drag at the same clamping load. And the drag setting at the reel is just one of many variables that affects the drag on the fish end the line. My belief is that having an easily repeatable setting is useful, it just doesn't need to be super accurate.
Hope this helps,
-J
Quote from: Vance Fulton on May 07, 2022, 06:24:28 AMThanks for that, I had forgotten about those shimano reels with the fighting drag on them, would be interesting to see how smooth the drags are, as they have to be silky smooth for 1 & 2 kg line.
love the Fightin'Lever -- don't like rear-drag spinners without it
I use it to manually compensate for otherwise inferior main rear drag
(long/light/moderate rods also help)
and as a limited-range UL Baitrunnerit will definitely allow you to bump up the main drag setting by up to 0.5 kg
in ONE MOTION -- reasonably precise, quick, convenient and REPEATABLE!!!not impressed w/ main drag,
HOWEVER, I opted for 90's models w/ downgraded drag &
upgraded spools/oscillation/line-lay -- better for casting & use w/ skinny braid
there are mid/late 80's Fightin'Drag models w/ short spools & simple disk oscillation
AND comparatively huge rear 6-stack... might be bigger OD, too -- not just more washers than mine
those can still be found cheap & might suit your drag needs... esp., CF upgrade/fine-tune thickness
unfortunately, not aware of any model w/ BOTH, modern top AND 6-stack up the rear
Thanks for the comments guys, some good thoughts. I am thinking of changing the drag washer in the Avet over to a leather washer, do you think this will give a better drag curve for a ultralight line. I did this for a little baitcaster 30 odd years ago and the drag was ultra smooth and not as touchy, but haven't tried it with a lever drag reel.
Quote from: Vance Fulton on May 13, 2022, 03:24:10 PMThanks for the comments guys, some good thoughts. I am thinking of changing the drag washer in the Avet over to a leather washer, do you think this will give a better drag curve for a ultralight line. I did this for a little baitcaster 30 odd years ago and the drag was ultra smooth and not as touchy, but haven't tried it with a lever drag reel.
What you are looking for is a set of surfaces that will have a lower coefficient of friction (lower drag range for the same cam), and a smaller difference between static (from a dead stop) and dynamic(while moving) coefficients of friction. Leather is highly variable depending on moisture content, age, lubrication, and how it has compressed over time. The coefficient of friction should be pretty high unless the leather has aged out and the actual drag surface is just whatever lube you are using. I would expect that using drag lube on carbon fiber would be an improvement. Properly lubed cork is nice when the alignment is not great, and it has this nice flex before breaking free, but the coefficient of friction is relatively high.
I would argue that the best material choice would probably be Rulon, assuming that the drag surface alignment is good. Very low coefficient of friction with stainless steel, impervious to water, static and dynamic friction very close. Handles heat better than any other option. It does not handle high clamping loads (not an issue for you), and has this strange property of the coeffient of friction actually decreasing with RPMs.
Getting the right sized rulon washer might be tricky. Delrin is cheaper, easier to find and work with, it has almost as good friction properties, but starts getting soft somewhere around 200F. But this will probably not be an issue at lower drag settings.
Carbon fiber, Rulon, cork, and even occasionally Delrin are used at the factory in various reels. There is a reason that leather is not around any more.
I would suggest lubing the carbon fiber with a PTFE grease like Superlube or Cal's, messing with thinner bellevilles to make the stack spring compression lighter, and as a last resort/final step, start messing with the cam ramp as Mark suggested.
Still think you are better off with your Abu, but it is an interesting exercise. Let us know how it turns out!
-J
Quote from: jurelometer on May 13, 2022, 07:04:38 PMQuote from: Vance Fulton on May 13, 2022, 03:24:10 PMThanks for the comments guys, some good thoughts. I am thinking of changing the drag washer in the Avet over to a leather washer, do you think this will give a better drag curve for a ultralight line. I did this for a little baitcaster 30 odd years ago and the drag was ultra smooth and not as touchy, but haven't tried it with a lever drag reel.
What you are looking for is a set of surfaces that will have a lower coefficient of friction (lower drag range for the same cam), and a smaller difference between static (from a dead stop) and dynamic(while moving) coefficients of friction. Leather is highly variable depending on moisture content, age, lubrication, and how it has compressed over time. The coefficient of friction should be pretty high unless the leather has aged out and the actual drag surface is just whatever lube you are using. I would expect that using drag lube on carbon fiber would be an improvement. Properly lubed cork is nice when the alignment is not great, and it has this nice flex before breaking free, but the coefficient of friction is relatively high.
I would argue that the best material choice would probably be Rulon, assuming that the drag surface alignment is good. Very low coefficient of friction with stainless steel, impervious to water, static and dynamic friction very close. Handles heat better than any other option. It does not handle high clamping loads (not an issue for you), and has this strange property of the coeffient of friction actually decreasing with RPMs.
Getting the right sized rulon washer might be tricky. Delrin is cheaper, easier to find and work with, it has almost as good friction properties, but starts getting soft somewhere around 200F. But this will probably not be an issue at lower drag settings.
Carbon fiber, Rulon, cork, and even occasionally Delrin are used at the factory in various reels. There is a reason that leather is not around any more.
I would suggest lubing the carbon fiber with a PTFE grease like Superlube or Cal's, messing with thinner bellevilles to make the stack spring compression lighter, and as a last resort/final step, start messing with the cam ramp as Mark suggested.
Still think you are better off with your Abu, but it is an interesting exercise. Let us know how it turns out!
-J
Thanks very much for that info, some really good stuff for me to think about.
I would use a spinning reel!
Depending on the size I could punch you a Delrin washer
Quote from: handi2 on May 29, 2022, 02:33:12 AMI would use a spinning reel!
Depending on the size I could punch you a Delrin washer
Line twist is a big problem for ultralight straylining with a spinner.
The guys I know that fish 1 and 2kg successfully (in NZ) only use baitcasters - Shimano Tranx, Curado.
EDIT: They use a lever drag for 4kg though. I can't think of a small lever drag with a suitable drag curve - I did think maybe Okuma Metaloid 5Ns but the curve is very very steep on that.
seems like pretty finique way of fishing.
UL with a Lever drag reel. :fish
have you tried accurate valiant 300? its pretty small and light and the drag activate all the way of the curve as soon you start moving the lever.
maybe you can set the max drag to 3kg and check whats your drag readings at strike and the lower zone of the curve
Ok this is gonna be either my best or dumbest idea of the week, so bear with me.
Take a star drag reel, play with drag disks, bellvilles and etc until your intended max and min drag are within about a 90° star turn of each other (definitely doable) and then mark the one of the spokes of the star closest to you and you can accurately predict and control drag by where that marked spoke is across that 90° of turn.
An earlier version of the idea involved cutting off all but one spoke of a star, but you get the same result with less destruction by just marking one.
Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on June 01, 2022, 12:18:45 AMOk this is gonna be either my best or dumbest idea of the week, so bear with me.
Take a star drag reel, play with drag disks, bellvilles and etc until your intended max and min drag are within about a 90° star turn of each other (definitely doable) and then mark the one of the spokes of the star closest to you and you can accurately predict and control drag by where that marked spoke is across that 90° of turn.
An earlier version of the idea involved cutting off all but one spoke of a star, but you get the same result with less destruction by just marking one.
I vote best idea for the week. I do this when possible with fly reels. If I can go from zero to max in less than 360, it makes it easy to undo the drag to strip off line for casting, and then go back to my original setting without counting revolutions. Plenty accurate.
-J
Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on June 01, 2022, 12:18:45 AMOk this is gonna be either my best or dumbest idea of the week, so bear with me.
Take a star drag reel, play with drag disks, bellvilles and etc until your intended max and min drag are within about a 90° star turn of each other (definitely doable) and then mark the one of the spokes of the star closest to you and you can accurately predict and control drag by where that marked spoke is across that 90° of turn.
An earlier version of the idea involved cutting off all but one spoke of a star, but you get the same result with less destruction by just marking one.
I know what you're getting at, but I suspect by the time you did all this you may as well have just custom-ground yourself a lever drag cam.
Quote from: boon on June 01, 2022, 02:24:54 AMQuote from: JasonGotaProblem on June 01, 2022, 12:18:45 AMOk this is gonna be either my best or dumbest idea of the week, so bear with me.
Take a star drag reel, play with drag disks, bellvilles and etc until your intended max and min drag are within about a 90° star turn of each other (definitely doable) and then mark the one of the spokes of the star closest to you and you can accurately predict and control drag by where that marked spoke is across that 90° of turn.
An earlier version of the idea involved cutting off all but one spoke of a star, but you get the same result with less destruction by just marking one.
I know what you're getting at, but I suspect by the time you did all this you may as well have just custom-ground yourself a lever drag cam.
Assuming that casting distance is not an issue.
I was also thinking that there might be a problem getting a reliable lever drag at a very low setting. If the drag required is below the minimum clamping force required to bypass the freespool spring and hold the spool firmly to the drag plate, the drag might not be consistent. But I pulled out a little old Avet SX, and was able to get a nice smooth drag under a kilo at strike (greased carbon fiber). Shaking or tilting the reel did not affect drag. The ramp from strike to full was pretty gigantic, so the cam ramp angle for a super low drag range might be a bit hard to get right when grinding.
The problem with grinding down a cam is that you can't go backward, so if you go too far, it is time to buy a new cam.
An interesting experiment.
———
Agree that it can get a bit fussy with the bellevilles to line up the star legs to a drag setting. I wouldn't go this far, just a make a couple index marks on the star wheel. Motor memory will kick in pretty fast, and you won't even be looking to change settings. As long as you can go from the near zero to absolute max desired drag in 360 degrees or less, you should only have to go through this once. A very aggressive drag ramp up should result in a very similar behavior to a well behaving lever/cam.
Not related to the problem at hand, but come to think of it, with the new high test/low diameter braids, it would make sense for new star drag reels to have a more aggressive drag ramp up, and detentes or clickers of some kind in the star so you could set the the drag for freespool to first strike, one to three clicks more for run once engaged, and then a few more clicks for full. The new fancy star drags are pretty much just the same old designs with pretty machined frames and sideplates. They really missed some opportunities to make reels better suited for fishing braid.
-J
Dave, interesting thoughts about options for modern star drags. I'd buy it. I'm now wondering if I could retrofit something to do that on an existing reel...
I realize I didn't explain my idea Very well, I'm glad you guys kinda figured out where I was going.
Thinkin... oh-oh. If you marked the star point, then another reference point on the reel or the handle for your desired drag level, wouldn't it change once you service the drag stack?
Quote from: Gfish on June 01, 2022, 07:30:20 PMThinkin... oh-oh. If you marked the star point, then another reference point on the reel or the handle for your desired drag level, wouldn't it change once you service the drag stack?
Yeah, maybe, but that amounts to reapplying some nail polish and scribing a fresh scratch. It should usually be the same, or plenty close if all the parts are put back the same. Setting once and scribing after a service is still less work than getting out a drag scale every single time you turn the adjustment knob on a lever drag. Just scribe a scratch on the star directly under the handle arm edge. The star turns with the arm, so a reference point on the sideplate doesn't work so well...
And this is only if you want to get super exact about it (which is a waste of time IMHO). I also used to just wrap a small band of electrician's tape around the star leg that was closest to the handle arm edge at the setting I wanted, and just make a mental note of the offset. But that was back when I could set my keys down and not forget where I put them within five minutes :)