Reel Repair by Alan Tani

Spinning Reel Rebuild Tutorials and Questions => General Spinning Reel Questions => Topic started by: Reeltyme on June 13, 2022, 11:31:52 PM

Title: My thoughts on todays spinners
Post by: Reeltyme on June 13, 2022, 11:31:52 PM
I am quite sure that I will probably "ruffle a few feathers" with this commentary, but here goes. I have been servicing reels for quite a few years now (more than 10 and less than 20), and have noticed a decline in the quality of the reels as I am sure most of you have. The prices have gone up though, considerably! The area I live in, central west coast Florida, seems to be a haven for Shimano. I service and repair a LOT of them. To be perfectly honest, I think they are a very poor reel. What gears aren't plastic are a very poor quality brass. Daiwa seems to be pretty much the same. I have not worked on any of the newer Penns yet so I can not pass judgement on them though I have a feeling they will fall into the same category. Now I am referring to reels in the $100 to $250 category. I am well aware that each brand makes an excellent high dollar reel. I serviced 2 Shimano "Twin Power" 850's. VERY well made. Metal body, all metal gears and completely sealed with gaskets EVERYWHERE, but the average "Joe" can't afford a $600 + reel! All the main manufacturers have their high end reel but again, the everyday reel seems to be junk. Even ordering parts is a nightmare as most reel models change as quickly as computer software! Does anyone have a recommendation for a good quality affordable reel? As Penn is either not a force in my area of never breaks down, I can not recommend them to my customers. When my customers ask my opinion on what to buy, I tell them "anything over 25 years old".
Title: Re: My thoughts on todays spinners
Post by: Squidder Bidder on June 13, 2022, 11:58:19 PM
In South Florida (Miami/Keys), at least about 10 years ago, the Penn SS series was standard on charter boats fishing reefs and wrecks. Maybe a Senator or International or two on heavier bent butt rods to drop for grouper also.

I think what happened is what happened to a lot of American manufacturing - cheap resident manufacturing in Asia made it fiscally impossible to manufacture quality products at an entry price point in the U.S.

My recollection was that 20 years ago or so Van Staal hit the spinning reel market, directed at East Coast surf casters at first. I think that put upward pressure on other manufacturers to match its quality and durability (one of the big selling points early on was that VS was entirely sealed, and they paid a guy on Long Island who would surf fish in a wet suit with the reel routinely submersed to promote the reels). Out came the Stellas etc. after that.

Title: Re: My thoughts on todays spinners
Post by: JasonGotaProblem on June 14, 2022, 12:37:17 AM
I mean you're not entirely wrong on any of it. Most new reels below $200 are shiny and pretty on the outside with lots of cool looking cuts in the spool, etc. But you get inside and the gears are zinc or aluminum.

I still love my daiwa SS reels though. Aluminum gears, graphite body, and all. But those first came out in the 80s

And I will make a counter argument, that modern reels are on average more pleasant to use, and as long as you're servicing it regularly it'll be fine.

And I'm also on the west coast of FL (I've seen your ads on CL for reel service before) and I'd argue that penn is king around here, with shimano a close second. But that's just my observations closer to Tampa, i know you're a bit further up.
Title: Re: My thoughts on todays spinners
Post by: happyhooker on June 14, 2022, 02:29:27 AM
I have little experience with the reels that have been available the last 10-15 years.  Had already decided a few years back that I would enjoy fishing more with vintage reels than with anything I could afford to buy new,  Have never looked back.  Many nice reels from the late '50s  up through the mid-1980s.  Yeah, you can find some good ones from the '80s and '90s, but you gotta look close.  All my fishing is fresh water, and I have reels from most of the well-known names from the '60s and '70s, like Mitchell, DAM, Heddon, Shakespeare and Abu; also toss in some Zebcos, Berkleys and even Daiwas and Shimanos.  I would bet I could find some new reels that would be OK, quality and fishability-wise, but I don't feel like hunting when there are so many great older reels out there.

Frank
Title: Re: My thoughts on todays spinners
Post by: Gfish on June 14, 2022, 05:20:43 AM
I went into my very well designed S. Ultegra 14000, recently. A great surfcaster, but my error, not to do so sooner. The zinc-composite parts(main, oscillation block, some line roller parts and that stupid lever-shaft that actuates the AR bearing on/off(have the same issues on 2-Srtatics with this piece)), were badly corroded. Rescued, thankfully, but I won't even try to replace them with more zinc junk.

I'm with Frank. Most NAME Vintage stuff from beyond the early '80's, can't be beat. Mitchell, M. Garcia, Abu/Zebco Cardinals, Penn Spinfishers, the Italian reels, Shakespeares, DAM Quicks. They are out there in droves, full functional reels as well as parts. If I had customers, I'd strongly recommend The DAM Q. reels. So, almost anything over 50 yrs. old, HA!
Title: Re: My thoughts on todays spinners
Post by: Aiala on June 14, 2022, 01:26:18 PM
Agree 100% about great vintage spinners... that's why I'm taking my venerable Penn 704 on my upcoming 8-day. It's built like a bulldozer, didn't cost a stupid fortune, is easy to service, and is mercifully free of irrelevant eye-burning bling. No, it can't handle a cow BFT, but so what? Besides, that fabulous teal green color... well, what gal could resist??  ^-^

~A~





Title: Re: My thoughts on todays spinners
Post by: philaroman on June 14, 2022, 02:26:40 PM
unfortunately, advertising/marketing combined w/ planned obsolescence,
are more profitable/cost-effective than better materials, manufacturing and R&D
don't blame the manufacturers -- blame the stupid, lazy, uneducated consumers (vast majority)
it's just cheaper to convince them something is good, than to make something good

also, shidaiwa gave us some good price:value for a couple decades, 
before they fully adapted the above Western[mostly US-made] concepts!!!
so can't really blame them for stomping on the bandwagon extra-hard, while jumping onto it a little late
Title: Re: My thoughts on todays spinners
Post by: Squidder Bidder on June 14, 2022, 03:14:07 PM
Quote from: philaroman on June 14, 2022, 02:26:40 PMunfortunately, advertising/marketing combined w/ planned obsolescence,
are more profitable/cost-effective than better materials, manufacturing and R&D
don't blame the manufacturers -- blame the stupid, lazy, uneducated consumers (vast majority)
it's just cheaper to convince them something is good, than to make something good

also, shidaiwa gave us some good price:value for a couple decades,
before they fully adapted the above Western[mostly US-made] concepts!!!
so can't really blame them for stomping on the bandwagon extra-hard, while jumping onto it a little late

My guess is that manufacturers had to adapt to a "throwaway" culture at some point - people want what they want now and cheap with bells and whistles. Perhaps the entry level reels are meant to be fished for a year or two and abused, and then thrown away after two seasons when the consumer buys a new reel with a graphics redesign and an irrelevant whizbang upgrade? Maybe you get the entry level Shimano while you save a few years for the Stella?

Edit: It's certainly a change in philosophy versus the more robust/durable stuff we play with here which permits at-home servicing and replacement parts compatibility.
Title: Re: My thoughts on todays spinners
Post by: Midway Tommy on June 14, 2022, 05:05:52 PM
In all reality, with the cost of labor nowadays, it's almost cheaper for the novice to buy a new reel every year or two than to pay to have his reels serviced yearly. The mechanical knowledge, ability and patience of the younger generations is somewhat limited.   :(
Title: Re: My thoughts on todays spinners
Post by: Cuttyhunker on June 14, 2022, 07:36:11 PM
Randy,
if any of these guys with the new junk pisses you off, send them home with that nasty old 700, the one with half or more of the paint gone and that has the broken foot you keep on the shelf next to your bench.  They won't live long enough to wear it out and require your services again. I think the pros know and have the Penns, the amateurs no so much. 
Title: Re: My thoughts on todays spinners
Post by: Gfish on June 14, 2022, 08:11:57 PM
I like this type of thread. Still waitin for someone with "ruffled feathers" to comment. Jason had a good point, maybe it's a personal thing though, but I want stuff that is built to last. I'd pay good money for an Ultegra made out of quality parts, because of the "great for surfcasting" design/function.
Title: Re: My thoughts on todays spinners
Post by: handi2 on June 14, 2022, 08:20:34 PM
With the Shimano reels it always bearing after bearing

Other than that they are great 👍
Title: Re: My thoughts on todays spinners
Post by: happyhooker on June 14, 2022, 09:28:35 PM
Tommy is certainly on to something when he says it's the labor cost.  And, it's more than fishing reels.  Look at TVs; nobody, hardly, repairs a TV 'cause the cost to do so is prohibitive vis-a-vis the cost of a new TV.  Auto repair; few mechanics repair components; it's replace the entire alternator, starter or whatever part is involved.

Frank
Title: Re: My thoughts on todays spinners
Post by: philaroman on June 14, 2022, 09:42:24 PM
Quote from: Gfish on June 14, 2022, 08:11:57 PMI'd pay good money for an Ultegra made out of quality parts, because of the "great for surfcasting" design/function.
figure out the year of production...  from around same time & w/ same basic design,
Biomaster/Stradic should be slightly better & TwinPower/Sustain should be noticeably better
you get a metal body tapped for fine-thread screws, rather than self-driving screws eroding graphite
every time the reel is disassembled...  IMO, that's a huge deal for frequent self-service of Surf reels
Title: Re: My thoughts on todays spinners
Post by: Paul Roberts on June 15, 2022, 03:03:42 AM
Interesting thread. Can't offer too much. I use mostly "vintage" stuff, much form the 70's and 80's. I have a YT channel and I get comments from viewers saying, "Hey, your retro!" To which I reply, "Nah, that's just my stuff!" Or... "You need new gear!" To which I reply. "No, I don't." :)

I have some newer reels though of course. My "newest" is a Pflueger President XT (light weight version). I haven't used it a whole lot, haven't yet opened it up. Kindof afraid to! ;D I have some US Reels spinners, and they are pretty chintzy. But, I'm careful of my gear for the most part and they've held up to what I've used them for, for over a decade now. Would not recommend though, even if they were still in business. My advice would be, "Go easy on them."

As to the turnover of new models... It's been gong on for some time now. I worked in a large tackle shop back in the 80's. People would come in to the shop with a magazine, pointing out the latest advertised reel. They weren't in our reel case, bc they were advertised well before they were released! We had "last year's" stuff. Frustrating. That "last year's stuff" were the Penn SS's, DAM 1000-5000 series, Sigma's, ABU C3's and 4's, Daiwa's BG's. I've been using some of those "last year's stuff" for decades since. So I can't say much about the new stuff.

Anyway, doesn't answer your question. We're stuck with what the industry produces. Or we're perusing ebay, taking our chances, and doing the work to bring those old reels back up to snuff. Not a useful recommendation for most people nowadays. But, then there are those like Fred Oakes who specialize where, apparently, the real quality lies, in "retro".
 
Title: Re: My thoughts on todays spinners
Post by: Reeltyme on June 15, 2022, 04:17:37 PM
Well G Fish, I thought maybe someone would get upset a little, guess not. That's a good thing! Below is my arsenal of a mixture of my "old" reels and the "new" ones that I use. All Fin-Nor except for one Browning that I use for bass fishing. Oh ya, and a pic of the Penn 700 reel Cutty mentioned. Darn thing is as smooth as butter and flips like new!
And of course, a Shimano I am servicing, exactly what I'm complaining about.2E12F907-57BB-4918-8347-9409B08C2EBA.png162D44DC-8C80-4D98-A6B7-78F4FEC2B917.png401146F8-9681-49EA-A9A1-70540BD2FC2A.png80FC8844-F878-49AD-9745-CF4E4C0CC8E6.png818390D9-0895-42C3-B1B5-B60AEA464270.png     
Title: Re: My thoughts on todays spinners
Post by: nelz on June 15, 2022, 04:43:46 PM
There's still good and affordable reels being released today. I was at Dick's recently and checked out a couple of spinners out on the open floor. Some felt good and solid, had metal frames, smooth, fast, and darn good lookin' too.  *These were not the higher end reels kept under glass.

I'm not reel shopping any more these days but if I were, new models would certainly be a possibility.    But... I still love vintage gear!  :fish
Title: Re: My thoughts on todays spinners
Post by: Gfish on June 15, 2022, 05:31:12 PM
Yeah. Tough to beat Shimano's internal "ossilation-post" system, or their big ol' Spinning reel AR bearings. Very smooth operating reels. But too many parts have been cheapened from what they could be. And they are a "# of parts-intensive" reel. Hard to work-on. Cheap materials saves on weight and saves the company manufacturing costs. Prolly makes 'em extra $ on part sales. A Stella level reel(never worked on one), might have the better quality stuff in it, but that's too much $ for something I godda worry about smacking with a kayak paddle, or having stolen. Simple and tough with parts availability is best for me.
Title: Re: My thoughts on todays spinners
Post by: Paul Roberts on June 15, 2022, 07:30:45 PM
Reeltyme, curious what kinds of things you are seeing going wrong with the modern reels, say, Shimano's you see a lot of. Any repeat offender parts or mechanisms?
Title: Re: My thoughts on todays spinners
Post by: Benni3 on June 16, 2022, 05:19:14 AM
Quote from: Paul Roberts on June 15, 2022, 03:03:42 AMInteresting thread. Can't offer too much. I use mostly "vintage" stuff, much form the 70's and 80's. I have a YT channel and I get comments from viewers saying, "Hey, your retro!" To which I reply, "Nah, that's just my stuff!" Or... "You need new gear!" To which I reply. "No, I don't." :)

I have some newer reels though of course. My "newest" is a Pflueger President XT (light weight version). I haven't used it a whole lot, haven't yet opened it up. Kindof afraid to! ;D I have some US Reels spinners, and they are pretty chintzy. But, I'm careful of my gear for the most part and they've held up to what I've used them for, for over a decade now. Would not recommend though, even if they were still in business. My advice would be, "Go easy on them."

As to the turnover of new models... It's been gong on for some time now. I worked in a large tackle shop back in the 80's. People would come in to the shop with a magazine, pointing out the latest advertised reel. They weren't in our reel case, bc they were advertised well before they were released! We had "last year's" stuff. Frustrating. That "last year's stuff" were the Penn SS's, DAM 1000-5000 series, Sigma's, ABU C3's and 4's, Daiwa's BG's. I've been using some of those "last year's stuff" for decades since. So I can't say much about the new stuff.

Anyway, doesn't answer your question. We're stuck with what the industry produces. Or we're perusing ebay, taking our chances, and doing the work to bring those old reels back up to snuff. Not a useful recommendation for most people nowadays. But, then there are those like Fred Oakes who specialize where, apparently, the real quality lies, in "retro".
 
The pflueger patriarch are extremely lightweight that's my go to for anything under 20lb,,,, ;) other is my torque 5 but it's like a Harley,,,,, :( the 706 with upgraded drag washers is more dependable and alot easier to work on,,,,but you need too,,,,,, ;D
Title: Re: My thoughts on todays spinners
Post by: Brewcrafter on June 16, 2022, 05:36:25 AM
I dunno, thinking aloud here but I almost suspect that spare and replacement parts are just a necessary evil that the manufacturers would do away with if they could?  After all, when they manufacture a given model/models, they will either manufacture (or subcontract with someone, say a bearing supplier, a gear manufacturer, a fastener company, etc) for enough parts to meet their projected production needs, plus probably a little "extra" for warranty purposes, etc. so that they can stand behind their product for a reasonable amount of time.  And they are most likely also driven by a need to buy in certain quantities because they are playing pretty far up the supply chain ladder (pallet lots, containers, totes, etc) And in their central manufacturing facilities they will have all of the resources to make sure they have (and can find) the appropriate frames, knobs, gears, screws, widgets, thingamabobbers, etc. and inventory at that level.  And the supply chain in retail is set up to support that.  Reels, rods, etc are "relatively" easy to track, ship, manage, sell, etc and they are doing this all against a forecast: they know how many reels they "need" to sell, how many they "think" they can sell, and look at all the factors and plan accordingly.  But with replacement and service parts not only does most of that go out the window, the costs begin to escalate very quickly simply due to the expense of organizing, moving, and storing it all.  I have mentioned before and it bears repeating the absolute over and beyond level of work that guys like Fred, Midway Tommy, and dozens of others do to secure, organize, and catalog replacement parts, and they are pretty much all doing it for their own single location; imagine the Shimanos, Daiwas, and Penns of the world that have "Distribution and Service Centers" around the world.  And that $.05 part that is sitting there is sucking up a LOT of variable cost in the process - that's how that $.25 gear pin that I sent to Hardy Todd awhile back ends up with a $1.75 price tag.
"But Brewcrafter John, spare parts are readily available for the most part in the automotive industries, wouldn't that be the same thing?  After all car manufacturers have the same incentives as reel manufacturers - they would rather sell us a new car every three years than help us maintain our current one, right?"  I think (and again, I do not have a degree in economics I'm just thinking aloud here) that it is NOT the same.  In the automotive world, just looking at scale, pretty much everyone owns a vehicle (or two, or three) but not everyone owns a fishing reel.  (But those of us that do - own lots  ;D  but I digress).  And the folks that are manufacturing those those replacement parts are most likely falling into one or more catagories: Independent 3rd party contractors that make individual parts (think Delco alternators) and it is worth their time to continue to manufacture many additional units.  The original buyer (Ford, GM, Mopar) pretty much paid the overhead for them to set up to make "X-amount" of widgets.  But now that they have everything they can continue to manufacture these widgets for a fraction of the cost, and they know there is a HUGE demand simply because there are so many cars out there.  As a matter of fact, the demand is so great that you have the second catagory, "remanufactured parts" which may or may not also be coming out of the same facilities because the demand is so great.  Our fishing reels on the other hand probably fall into the demand spectrum somewhere around like trying to find brake shoes for a 1963 International Scout or a power brake booster for a 1965 Dodge (trust me, Been there, done that) - not a lot of demand so the people that make these things can no longer sell enough to make it worth their while, and stop.  This very forum has tales of tackle shops and service centers closing their doors, and buckets of parts going into the dumpster.  Why?  Because the ROI is probably horrible.  While I may not like the philosophy myself, Tommy is spot on - for the average "Joe" it probably makes more financial sense to buy a cheap reel and replace it every few years with the latest model rather than the expense of paying someone to service it. - john
Title: Re: My thoughts on todays spinners
Post by: Reeltyme on June 16, 2022, 09:35:16 AM
Paul, The first and foremost item is of course, line roller bearings! Horrible! When did it become mandatory to have a roller on the bail anyway? Second problem main gear bearings. Then I have had quite a few oscillating sleeves deteriorated (not on Shimano as the use a worm gear). On Shimano, most of the time the bracket that holds the pawl will not come off the main shaft for service And therefore causes extra work to get the reel apart for service. I have also found that most of the Shimano reels are practically void of any lube. I am not one to pack with grease and lube what is necessary. Many of the reels I take apart are almost totally dry? I guess my biggest complaint is ordering parts. I almost never find a schematic for the model I am servicing and end up talking to a rep. to find something that I can substitute. The, Oh that model is obsolete. A 2 year old $600 Twin Power Shimano should not be "obsolete ". But then again, I shouldn't have to be ordering parts for it either. Just some of the things I have run into repeatedly.
Title: Re: My thoughts on todays spinners
Post by: JasonGotaProblem on June 16, 2022, 10:34:25 AM
Would it contribute to the discussion at all if I pretend to have my feathers ruffled? If so I can take one for the team.

Not too initially keen on the talk of the younger generations lacking the skills. I'm one of those young folks. But then my posts do a good job demonstrating that there's skills I definitely lack.
Title: Re: My thoughts on todays spinners
Post by: Paul Roberts on June 16, 2022, 02:09:56 PM
Thanks, Reeltyme.

Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on June 16, 2022, 10:34:25 AMWould it contribute to the discussion at all if I pretend to have my feathers ruffled? If so I can take one for the team.

Not too initially keen on the talk of the younger generations lacking the skills. I'm one of those young folks. But then my posts do a good job demonstrating that there's skills I definitely lack.
:) Well, I'm on the vintage side, and must say that "doing a good job of demonstrating lacking skills" will probably never go away. Too much to know; Too much change. Keeps us on our toes. I think that's God's plan. :)
Title: Re: My thoughts on todays spinners
Post by: Cor on June 16, 2022, 03:26:39 PM
I've been lurking around this thread for a while and keep on thinking  "but why spinners" surely the same applies to conventional reels?

I  needed to buy another reel a few days ago, wrote down some specks and started looking, after 3 days I decided its impossible to do that type of research, each reel manufacturer has a list of 100 + reels to choose from. Only some of the manufacturers provide a full list of details and specifications of their products.   Is this not part of the problem identified here, the job off keeping an inventory of parts is too costly in relation to the price of the reel, its a business issue.  Business is supposed to react to the need or wants of its market which is who?
I bought a cheapy reel, why, because I think it would fulfil my requirements, I want to catch squids who weigh not much more then 1/2 lb each, the reel will do that.    I also know you get what you pay for.  Now I ask myself, would I have paid $500 for a stronger better quality reel of which parts would be available for the next 30 years, to catch squid with?  Possibly yes, but honestly it gets very complicated in my own mind.

If business really does what we as consumers want, then perhaps we need to look at ourselves because we buy the stuff.

When I started fishing a little while ago :-[ Penn had perhaps 5 models here and parts were available for every reel, but economics and business expectations have changed.

I don't know if reels are comparable with cars, nor do I know what the situation is in the USA, but in the EU cars are subject to many rules and standard requirements.    Items like reels are probably a free for all and not subject to any quality standards.
Title: Re: My thoughts on todays spinners
Post by: Midway Tommy on June 16, 2022, 03:55:11 PM
Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on June 16, 2022, 10:34:25 AMWould it contribute to the discussion at all if I pretend to have my feathers ruffled? If so I can take one for the team.

Not too initially keen on the talk of the younger generations lacking the skills. I'm one of those young folks. But then my posts do a good job demonstrating that there's skills I definitely lack.

I think there is a huge difference here. You have clearly shown the willingness and desire to learn, whether it's newer or vintage equipment. That doesn't seem to be the case with the majority of the younger fishing enthusiasts.
Title: Re: My thoughts on todays spinners
Post by: Reeltyme on June 16, 2022, 06:33:49 PM
Quote from: Cor on June 16, 2022, 03:26:39 PMI've been lurking around this thread for a while and keep on thinking  "but why spinners" surely the same applies to conventional reels?


Well Cor, It does apply to conventionals as well, maybe not to quite the same extent, but as this is the spinning forum, you get the picture. And you are also correct about the number of models available, insane! It seams that a little company called Ocean City went that route and it didn't work out so well for them.
Title: Re: My thoughts on todays spinners
Post by: Cor on June 16, 2022, 06:47:02 PM
Quote from: Reeltyme on June 16, 2022, 06:33:49 PM
Quote from: Cor on June 16, 2022, 03:26:39 PMI've been lurking around this thread for a while and keep on thinking  "but why spinners" surely the same applies to conventional reels?


Well Cor, It does apply to conventionals as well, maybe not to quite the same extent, but as this is the spinning forum, you get the picture. And you are also correct about the number of models available, insane! It seams that a little company called Ocean City went that route and it didn't work out so well for them.
I would also say Spinners are probably more complex bits of equipment and subject to more stresses and strains, not that I have ever opened one or fished with it. :d
Title: Re: My thoughts on todays spinners
Post by: Aiala on June 16, 2022, 08:17:41 PM
Quote from: Cor on June 16, 2022, 06:47:02 PMI would also say Spinners are probably more complex bits of equipment and subject to more stresses and strains...

I guess the complexity depends on the age of the reel (and the angler). Me, I'd rather fuss with a Penn 704 than a Squidder, but perhaps the new super-spinners are dauntingly intricate.  :P

Stresses and strains? Sure, lots, because if you think about it, spinners are basically a winch turned sideways. Can you imagine how that concept would work mounted on the front of a jeep??  :o 

But I will always treasure my doughty vintage coffee grinders; they'll outlast me, and I actually derive considerable satisfaction from that.  :)

~A~
Title: Re: My thoughts on todays spinners
Post by: boon on June 16, 2022, 11:44:38 PM
There are lots of things to explore here.
The first one to look at is CPI/Inflation. $200 today is equivalent to about $75 in the mid 80's - how was the quality of a $75 reel back then?
Next, performance is relative to the best available. A modern Stella, Saltiga, Exist... they are like silk. The smoothness, precision, power, function is just incredible. You pick up what was once considered a relatively high-end reel, take for example a Penn SS, and it feels... agricultural by comparison. No instant anti-reverse, the gear meshing is very obvious - the automatic bail closure works by bashing the bail arm into the stem. Yes, tough, simple, and probably reliable, but the reality is it performs considerably worse in many regards than even a very cheap modern spinner.
A $50 Shimano is probably 90% (or more) as smooth as a $500 Shimano, which is quite incredible really. Consider the "reel purchasing triangle" of Cheap - High Performance - Durable - you only get to choose two. Some reels get surprisingly close to 2.5 out of 3, like the modern Daiwa BG.
The modern cheap spinner, in the vein of essentially use-and-replace consumer goods, undoubtedly selects Cheap and High Performance. Due to the complexity required to obtain the performance the average consumer is looking for, at a price they will accept, cuts have to be made in terms of materials etc.

As for complexity - I did a gear swap on a Stella 6000SWB from HG to PG, and at one point I would have had over 50 parts laid out in front of me. They have over 100 parts in total. It feels excessively complex, but man do they perform.....
Title: Re: My thoughts on todays spinners
Post by: Brewcrafter on June 17, 2022, 01:24:52 AM
Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on June 16, 2022, 10:34:25 AMWould it contribute to the discussion at all if I pretend to have my feathers ruffled? If so I can take one for the team.

Not too initially keen on the talk of the younger generations lacking the skills. I'm one of those young folks. But then my posts do a good job demonstrating that there's skills I definitely lack.

Jason - Sure you have the skills and the desire, as do many.  I hope I didn't make this sound generational.  I think Tommy wisely points out what makes the Ohana community special - we are all here because we are who we are and are dedicated to learning, sharing, and appreciation of well made things.  I would "almost" suggest that many of us are fisherman second, which is FINE.  :d   But when you scroll down on the home page to the Forum stats we have around 15K members (of various level of involvement - that is fine - I like that folks find this site and I am cool if they find it helpful but do not feel the need to be heavily involved).  But I am guessing that major manufacturers are not looking to sell 15K units; and to be honest we are probably NOT their target market on many items.  The AT Community is very special, but while it is (IMHO) the Greatest Brain Trust of Fishing Design and Development, I have to think that for the majority of what these businesses are creating we would not fall into their "target sales demographic". = - john
Title: Re: My thoughts on todays spinners
Post by: 0119 on June 21, 2022, 11:25:57 AM
Great topic can't believe I missed it from it's beginning. I'm just south of the o.p.  Penn is King here and only due to cheap price but Shimano is nearly on top. I have also seen quality go down but I think it started back a few years further. I'm not so sure is industry driven or societally driven. No one wants anything be it a cell phone, a car or a reel before they want the next best model. I used to think planned obsolescence in engineering was the fault of companies. But society is now obcessed with trends and trendy. Here it's to have at least 500,000 into a shiny tow vehicle with a color coordinated boat, motor and trailer. Even their shiny polyester sporty clothes matches. And in the rod racks, reels and rods that are color coordinated to match their braid. This year blue, next year orange. Nothing needs to last more than a season when it must be replaced after next ICast for one more added ball bearing and pink. It's all the fault of what passes as fishermen these days.
Title: Re: My thoughts on todays spinners
Post by: Squidder Bidder on June 21, 2022, 05:30:45 PM
Quote from: Brewcrafter on June 17, 2022, 01:24:52 AM
Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on June 16, 2022, 10:34:25 AMWould it contribute to the discussion at all if I pretend to have my feathers ruffled? If so I can take one for the team.

Not too initially keen on the talk of the younger generations lacking the skills. I'm one of those young folks. But then my posts do a good job demonstrating that there's skills I definitely lack.

Jason - Sure you have the skills and the desire, as do many.  I hope I didn't make this sound generational.  I think Tommy wisely points out what makes the Ohana community special - we are all here because we are who we are and are dedicated to learning, sharing, and appreciation of well made things.  I would "almost" suggest that many of us are fisherman second, which is FINE.  :d   But when you scroll down on the home page to the Forum stats we have around 15K members (of various level of involvement - that is fine - I like that folks find this site and I am cool if they find it helpful but do not feel the need to be heavily involved).  But I am guessing that major manufacturers are not looking to sell 15K units; and to be honest we are probably NOT their target market on many items.  The AT Community is very special, but while it is (IMHO) the Greatest Brain Trust of Fishing Design and Development, I have to think that for the majority of what these businesses are creating we would not fall into their "target sales demographic". = - john

The manufacturers probably have 2-3 target markets in mind. My guess is that there's an entry level market, an upmarket consumer, and a market for users who utilize the products commercially (e.g., charter operations).

There are plenty of people who use a rod and reel combo only 2 or 3 times a year. I don't know that with this light use maintenance is going to be necessary in the absence of something strange happening. It makes sense to have options in the market for these people. If the reel stops working after 3 or 4 years they'll probably just get the newer whizbang and throw the old one in the back of the shed.

But I have found that if you're even a heavy casual fisherman, one skill you're going to need is to maintain your equipment. Durability and readily available replacement parts is probably a non-negotiable for a heavy casual fisherman and the commercial operation. It's just that there are fewer of these users than there are of the 2-3 times a year types.

The advent of braid probably pushed materials science for fishing reels, where there was a lot of benefit in making a smaller, lighter reel which could nonetheless handle line with serious breaking strength. I have a 850SS laying around and it is absolutely mammoth for a spinning reel (I had matched it up with a surf rod). It's naturally cumbersome due to its size and weight, and if you could develop a reel with advanced materials that is smaller and lighter and could handle 65# braid you'd do it - it's just that the materials and engineering necessary to fit that kind of performance into a smaller, lighter reel make the whole affair much more expensive per unit. So the market here seems to have divided into real high end equipment and the lower end, entry level stuff which doesn't tale to repair as well.

Likewise, the upgraded frames for conventionals, and later the machined side plates and eventually the all aluminum higher end small conventional reels arose as the result of trying to push smaller, lighter reels to handle higher drag stresses without torquing the reel or stripping its main gear (or a dozen other things that could go wrong). Once braid becomes the standard, the consumer is going to want a smaller spool and a smaller reel but one which can handle serious stress - it seems to me as a non-engineer that the most direct way out of that problem is stronger, lighter materials which are bound to be more expensive.