Reel Repair by Alan Tani

I am quite sure that I will probably "ruffle a few feathers" with this commentary, but here goes. I have been servicing reels for quite a few years now (more than 10 and less than 20), and have noticed a decline in the quality of the reels as I am sure most of you have. The prices have gone up though, considerably! The area I live in, central west coast Florida, seems to be a haven for Shimano. I service and repair a LOT of them. To be perfectly honest, I think they are a very poor reel. What gears aren't plastic are a very poor quality brass. Daiwa seems to be pretty much the same. I have not worked on any of the newer Penns yet so I can not pass judgement on them though I have a feeling they will fall into the same category. Now I am referring to reels in the $100 to $250 category. I am well aware that each brand makes an excellent high dollar reel. I serviced 2 Shimano "Twin Power" 850's. VERY well made. Metal body, all metal gears and completely sealed with gaskets EVERYWHERE, but the average "Joe" can't afford a $600 + reel! All the main manufacturers have their high end reel but again, the everyday reel seems to be junk. Even ordering parts is a nightmare as most reel models change as quickly as computer software! Does anyone have a recommendation for a good quality affordable reel? As Penn is either not a force in my area of never breaks down, I can not recommend them to my customers. When my customers ask my opinion on what to buy, I tell them "anything over 25 years old".

In South Florida (Miami/Keys), at least about 10 years ago, the Penn SS series was standard on charter boats fishing reefs and wrecks. Maybe a Senator or International or two on heavier bent butt rods to drop for grouper also.

I think what happened is what happened to a lot of American manufacturing - cheap resident manufacturing in Asia made it fiscally impossible to manufacture quality products at an entry price point in the U.S.

My recollection was that 20 years ago or so Van Staal hit the spinning reel market, directed at East Coast surf casters at first. I think that put upward pressure on other manufacturers to match its quality and durability (one of the big selling points early on was that VS was entirely sealed, and they paid a guy on Long Island who would surf fish in a wet suit with the reel routinely submersed to promote the reels). Out came the Stellas etc. after that.

I mean you're not entirely wrong on any of it. Most new reels below $200 are shiny and pretty on the outside with lots of cool looking cuts in the spool, etc. But you get inside and the gears are zinc or aluminum.

I still love my daiwa SS reels though. Aluminum gears, graphite body, and all. But those first came out in the 80s

And I will make a counter argument, that modern reels are on average more pleasant to use, and as long as you're servicing it regularly it'll be fine.

And I'm also on the west coast of FL (I've seen your ads on CL for reel service before) and I'd argue that penn is king around here, with shimano a close second. But that's just my observations closer to Tampa, i know you're a bit further up.

I have little experience with the reels that have been available the last 10-15 years.  Had already decided a few years back that I would enjoy fishing more with vintage reels than with anything I could afford to buy new,  Have never looked back.  Many nice reels from the late '50s  up through the mid-1980s.  Yeah, you can find some good ones from the '80s and '90s, but you gotta look close.  All my fishing is fresh water, and I have reels from most of the well-known names from the '60s and '70s, like Mitchell, DAM, Heddon, Shakespeare and Abu; also toss in some Zebcos, Berkleys and even Daiwas and Shimanos.  I would bet I could find some new reels that would be OK, quality and fishability-wise, but I don't feel like hunting when there are so many great older reels out there.

Frank

I went into my very well designed S. Ultegra 14000, recently. A great surfcaster, but my error, not to do so sooner. The zinc-composite parts(main, oscillation block, some line roller parts and that stupid lever-shaft that actuates the AR bearing on/off(have the same issues on 2-Srtatics with this piece)), were badly corroded. Rescued, thankfully, but I won't even try to replace them with more zinc junk.

I'm with Frank. Most NAME Vintage stuff from beyond the early '80's, can't be beat. Mitchell, M. Garcia, Abu/Zebco Cardinals, Penn Spinfishers, the Italian reels, Shakespeares, DAM Quicks. They are out there in droves, full functional reels as well as parts. If I had customers, I'd strongly recommend The DAM Q. reels. So, almost anything over 50 yrs. old, HA!

Agree 100% about great vintage spinners... that's why I'm taking my venerable Penn 704 on my upcoming 8-day. It's built like a bulldozer, didn't cost a stupid fortune, is easy to service, and is mercifully free of irrelevant eye-burning bling. No, it can't handle a cow BFT, but so what? Besides, that fabulous teal green color... well, what gal could resist??  ^-^

~A~

unfortunately, advertising/marketing combined w/ planned obsolescence,
are more profitable/cost-effective than better materials, manufacturing and R&D
don't blame the manufacturers -- blame the stupid, lazy, uneducated consumers (vast majority)
it's just cheaper to convince them something is good, than to make something good

also, shidaiwa gave us some good price:value for a couple decades, 
before they fully adapted the above Western[mostly US-made] concepts!!!
so can't really blame them for stomping on the bandwagon extra-hard, while jumping onto it a little late

Quote from: philaroman on June 14, 2022, 02:26:40 PMunfortunately, advertising/marketing combined w/ planned obsolescence,
are more profitable/cost-effective than better materials, manufacturing and R&D
don't blame the manufacturers -- blame the stupid, lazy, uneducated consumers (vast majority)
it's just cheaper to convince them something is good, than to make something good

also, shidaiwa gave us some good price:value for a couple decades,
before they fully adapted the above Western[mostly US-made] concepts!!!
so can't really blame them for stomping on the bandwagon extra-hard, while jumping onto it a little late

My guess is that manufacturers had to adapt to a "throwaway" culture at some point - people want what they want now and cheap with bells and whistles. Perhaps the entry level reels are meant to be fished for a year or two and abused, and then thrown away after two seasons when the consumer buys a new reel with a graphics redesign and an irrelevant whizbang upgrade? Maybe you get the entry level Shimano while you save a few years for the Stella?

Edit: It's certainly a change in philosophy versus the more robust/durable stuff we play with here which permits at-home servicing and replacement parts compatibility.

In all reality, with the cost of labor nowadays, it's almost cheaper for the novice to buy a new reel every year or two than to pay to have his reels serviced yearly. The mechanical knowledge, ability and patience of the younger generations is somewhat limited.   :(

Randy,
if any of these guys with the new junk pisses you off, send them home with that nasty old 700, the one with half or more of the paint gone and that has the broken foot you keep on the shelf next to your bench.  They won't live long enough to wear it out and require your services again. I think the pros know and have the Penns, the amateurs no so much. 

I like this type of thread. Still waitin for someone with "ruffled feathers" to comment. Jason had a good point, maybe it's a personal thing though, but I want stuff that is built to last. I'd pay good money for an Ultegra made out of quality parts, because of the "great for surfcasting" design/function.

With the Shimano reels it always bearing after bearing

Other than that they are great 👍

Tommy is certainly on to something when he says it's the labor cost.  And, it's more than fishing reels.  Look at TVs; nobody, hardly, repairs a TV 'cause the cost to do so is prohibitive vis-a-vis the cost of a new TV.  Auto repair; few mechanics repair components; it's replace the entire alternator, starter or whatever part is involved.

Frank

Quote from: Gfish on June 14, 2022, 08:11:57 PMI'd pay good money for an Ultegra made out of quality parts, because of the "great for surfcasting" design/function.

figure out the year of production...  from around same time & w/ same basic design,
Biomaster/Stradic should be slightly better & TwinPower/Sustain should be noticeably better
you get a metal body tapped for fine-thread screws, rather than self-driving screws eroding graphite
every time the reel is disassembled...  IMO, that's a huge deal for frequent self-service of Surf reels

Interesting thread. Can't offer too much. I use mostly "vintage" stuff, much form the 70's and 80's. I have a YT channel and I get comments from viewers saying, "Hey, your retro!" To which I reply, "Nah, that's just my stuff!" Or... "You need new gear!" To which I reply. "No, I don't." :)

I have some newer reels though of course. My "newest" is a Pflueger President XT (light weight version). I haven't used it a whole lot, haven't yet opened it up. Kindof afraid to! ;D I have some US Reels spinners, and they are pretty chintzy. But, I'm careful of my gear for the most part and they've held up to what I've used them for, for over a decade now. Would not recommend though, even if they were still in business. My advice would be, "Go easy on them."

As to the turnover of new models... It's been gong on for some time now. I worked in a large tackle shop back in the 80's. People would come in to the shop with a magazine, pointing out the latest advertised reel. They weren't in our reel case, bc they were advertised well before they were released! We had "last year's" stuff. Frustrating. That "last year's stuff" were the Penn SS's, DAM 1000-5000 series, Sigma's, ABU C3's and 4's, Daiwa's BG's. I've been using some of those "last year's stuff" for decades since. So I can't say much about the new stuff.

Anyway, doesn't answer your question. We're stuck with what the industry produces. Or we're perusing ebay, taking our chances, and doing the work to bring those old reels back up to snuff. Not a useful recommendation for most people nowadays. But, then there are those like Fred Oakes who specialize where, apparently, the real quality lies, in "retro".
 

Well G Fish, I thought maybe someone would get upset a little, guess not. That's a good thing! Below is my arsenal of a mixture of my "old" reels and the "new" ones that I use. All Fin-Nor except for one Browning that I use for bass fishing. Oh ya, and a pic of the Penn 700 reel Cutty mentioned. Darn thing is as smooth as butter and flips like new!
And of course, a Shimano I am servicing, exactly what I'm complaining about.     

---

There's still good and affordable reels being released today. I was at Dick's recently and checked out a couple of spinners out on the open floor. Some felt good and solid, had metal frames, smooth, fast, and darn good lookin' too.  *These were not the higher end reels kept under glass.

I'm not reel shopping any more these days but if I were, new models would certainly be a possibility.    But... I still love vintage gear!  :fish

Yeah. Tough to beat Shimano's internal "ossilation-post" system, or their big ol' Spinning reel AR bearings. Very smooth operating reels. But too many parts have been cheapened from what they could be. And they are a "# of parts-intensive" reel. Hard to work-on. Cheap materials saves on weight and saves the company manufacturing costs. Prolly makes 'em extra $ on part sales. A Stella level reel(never worked on one), might have the better quality stuff in it, but that's too much $ for something I godda worry about smacking with a kayak paddle, or having stolen. Simple and tough with parts availability is best for me.

Reeltyme, curious what kinds of things you are seeing going wrong with the modern reels, say, Shimano's you see a lot of. Any repeat offender parts or mechanisms?

Quote from: Paul Roberts on June 15, 2022, 03:03:42 AMInteresting thread. Can't offer too much. I use mostly "vintage" stuff, much form the 70's and 80's. I have a YT channel and I get comments from viewers saying, "Hey, your retro!" To which I reply, "Nah, that's just my stuff!" Or... "You need new gear!" To which I reply. "No, I don't." :)

I have some newer reels though of course. My "newest" is a Pflueger President XT (light weight version). I haven't used it a whole lot, haven't yet opened it up. Kindof afraid to! ;D I have some US Reels spinners, and they are pretty chintzy. But, I'm careful of my gear for the most part and they've held up to what I've used them for, for over a decade now. Would not recommend though, even if they were still in business. My advice would be, "Go easy on them."

As to the turnover of new models... It's been gong on for some time now. I worked in a large tackle shop back in the 80's. People would come in to the shop with a magazine, pointing out the latest advertised reel. They weren't in our reel case, bc they were advertised well before they were released! We had "last year's" stuff. Frustrating. That "last year's stuff" were the Penn SS's, DAM 1000-5000 series, Sigma's, ABU C3's and 4's, Daiwa's BG's. I've been using some of those "last year's stuff" for decades since. So I can't say much about the new stuff.

Anyway, doesn't answer your question. We're stuck with what the industry produces. Or we're perusing ebay, taking our chances, and doing the work to bring those old reels back up to snuff. Not a useful recommendation for most people nowadays. But, then there are those like Fred Oakes who specialize where, apparently, the real quality lies, in "retro".
 

The pflueger patriarch are extremely lightweight that's my go to for anything under 20lb,,,, ;) other is my torque 5 but it's like a Harley,,,,, :( the 706 with upgraded drag washers is more dependable and alot easier to work on,,,,but you need too,,,,,, ;D

I dunno, thinking aloud here but I almost suspect that spare and replacement parts are just a necessary evil that the manufacturers would do away with if they could?  After all, when they manufacture a given model/models, they will either manufacture (or subcontract with someone, say a bearing supplier, a gear manufacturer, a fastener company, etc) for enough parts to meet their projected production needs, plus probably a little "extra" for warranty purposes, etc. so that they can stand behind their product for a reasonable amount of time.  And they are most likely also driven by a need to buy in certain quantities because they are playing pretty far up the supply chain ladder (pallet lots, containers, totes, etc) And in their central manufacturing facilities they will have all of the resources to make sure they have (and can find) the appropriate frames, knobs, gears, screws, widgets, thingamabobbers, etc. and inventory at that level.  And the supply chain in retail is set up to support that.  Reels, rods, etc are "relatively" easy to track, ship, manage, sell, etc and they are doing this all against a forecast: they know how many reels they "need" to sell, how many they "think" they can sell, and look at all the factors and plan accordingly.  But with replacement and service parts not only does most of that go out the window, the costs begin to escalate very quickly simply due to the expense of organizing, moving, and storing it all.  I have mentioned before and it bears repeating the absolute over and beyond level of work that guys like Fred, Midway Tommy, and dozens of others do to secure, organize, and catalog replacement parts, and they are pretty much all doing it for their own single location; imagine the Shimanos, Daiwas, and Penns of the world that have "Distribution and Service Centers" around the world.  And that $.05 part that is sitting there is sucking up a LOT of variable cost in the process - that's how that $.25 gear pin that I sent to Hardy Todd awhile back ends up with a $1.75 price tag.
"But Brewcrafter John, spare parts are readily available for the most part in the automotive industries, wouldn't that be the same thing?  After all car manufacturers have the same incentives as reel manufacturers - they would rather sell us a new car every three years than help us maintain our current one, right?"  I think (and again, I do not have a degree in economics I'm just thinking aloud here) that it is NOT the same.  In the automotive world, just looking at scale, pretty much everyone owns a vehicle (or two, or three) but not everyone owns a fishing reel.  (But those of us that do - own lots  ;D  but I digress).  And the folks that are manufacturing those those replacement parts are most likely falling into one or more catagories: Independent 3rd party contractors that make individual parts (think Delco alternators) and it is worth their time to continue to manufacture many additional units.  The original buyer (Ford, GM, Mopar) pretty much paid the overhead for them to set up to make "X-amount" of widgets.  But now that they have everything they can continue to manufacture these widgets for a fraction of the cost, and they know there is a HUGE demand simply because there are so many cars out there.  As a matter of fact, the demand is so great that you have the second catagory, "remanufactured parts" which may or may not also be coming out of the same facilities because the demand is so great.  Our fishing reels on the other hand probably fall into the demand spectrum somewhere around like trying to find brake shoes for a 1963 International Scout or a power brake booster for a 1965 Dodge (trust me, Been there, done that) - not a lot of demand so the people that make these things can no longer sell enough to make it worth their while, and stop.  This very forum has tales of tackle shops and service centers closing their doors, and buckets of parts going into the dumpster.  Why?  Because the ROI is probably horrible.  While I may not like the philosophy myself, Tommy is spot on - for the average "Joe" it probably makes more financial sense to buy a cheap reel and replace it every few years with the latest model rather than the expense of paying someone to service it. - john

Paul, The first and foremost item is of course, line roller bearings! Horrible! When did it become mandatory to have a roller on the bail anyway? Second problem main gear bearings. Then I have had quite a few oscillating sleeves deteriorated (not on Shimano as the use a worm gear). On Shimano, most of the time the bracket that holds the pawl will not come off the main shaft for service And therefore causes extra work to get the reel apart for service. I have also found that most of the Shimano reels are practically void of any lube. I am not one to pack with grease and lube what is necessary. Many of the reels I take apart are almost totally dry? I guess my biggest complaint is ordering parts. I almost never find a schematic for the model I am servicing and end up talking to a rep. to find something that I can substitute. The, Oh that model is obsolete. A 2 year old $600 Twin Power Shimano should not be "obsolete ". But then again, I shouldn't have to be ordering parts for it either. Just some of the things I have run into repeatedly.

Would it contribute to the discussion at all if I pretend to have my feathers ruffled? If so I can take one for the team.

Not too initially keen on the talk of the younger generations lacking the skills. I'm one of those young folks. But then my posts do a good job demonstrating that there's skills I definitely lack.

Thanks, Reeltyme.

Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on June 16, 2022, 10:34:25 AMWould it contribute to the discussion at all if I pretend to have my feathers ruffled? If so I can take one for the team.

Not too initially keen on the talk of the younger generations lacking the skills. I'm one of those young folks. But then my posts do a good job demonstrating that there's skills I definitely lack.

:) Well, I'm on the vintage side, and must say that "doing a good job of demonstrating lacking skills" will probably never go away. Too much to know; Too much change. Keeps us on our toes. I think that's God's plan. :)

I've been lurking around this thread for a while and keep on thinking  "but why spinners" surely the same applies to conventional reels?

I  needed to buy another reel a few days ago, wrote down some specks and started looking, after 3 days I decided its impossible to do that type of research, each reel manufacturer has a list of 100 + reels to choose from. Only some of the manufacturers provide a full list of details and specifications of their products.   Is this not part of the problem identified here, the job off keeping an inventory of parts is too costly in relation to the price of the reel, its a business issue.  Business is supposed to react to the need or wants of its market which is who?
I bought a cheapy reel, why, because I think it would fulfil my requirements, I want to catch squids who weigh not much more then 1/2 lb each, the reel will do that.    I also know you get what you pay for.  Now I ask myself, would I have paid $500 for a stronger better quality reel of which parts would be available for the next 30 years, to catch squid with?  Possibly yes, but honestly it gets very complicated in my own mind.

If business really does what we as consumers want, then perhaps we need to look at ourselves because we buy the stuff.

When I started fishing a little while ago :-[ Penn had perhaps 5 models here and parts were available for every reel, but economics and business expectations have changed.

I don't know if reels are comparable with cars, nor do I know what the situation is in the USA, but in the EU cars are subject to many rules and standard requirements.    Items like reels are probably a free for all and not subject to any quality standards.

Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on June 16, 2022, 10:34:25 AMWould it contribute to the discussion at all if I pretend to have my feathers ruffled? If so I can take one for the team.

Not too initially keen on the talk of the younger generations lacking the skills. I'm one of those young folks. But then my posts do a good job demonstrating that there's skills I definitely lack.

I think there is a huge difference here. You have clearly shown the willingness and desire to learn, whether it's newer or vintage equipment. That doesn't seem to be the case with the majority of the younger fishing enthusiasts.

Quote from: Cor on June 16, 2022, 03:26:39 PMI've been lurking around this thread for a while and keep on thinking  "but why spinners" surely the same applies to conventional reels?


Well Cor, It does apply to conventionals as well, maybe not to quite the same extent, but as this is the spinning forum, you get the picture. And you are also correct about the number of models available, insane! It seams that a little company called Ocean City went that route and it didn't work out so well for them.

Quote from: Reeltyme on June 16, 2022, 06:33:49 PM

Quote from: Cor on June 16, 2022, 03:26:39 PMI've been lurking around this thread for a while and keep on thinking  "but why spinners" surely the same applies to conventional reels?


Well Cor, It does apply to conventionals as well, maybe not to quite the same extent, but as this is the spinning forum, you get the picture. And you are also correct about the number of models available, insane! It seams that a little company called Ocean City went that route and it didn't work out so well for them.

I would also say Spinners are probably more complex bits of equipment and subject to more stresses and strains, not that I have ever opened one or fished with it. :d

Quote from: Cor on June 16, 2022, 06:47:02 PMI would also say Spinners are probably more complex bits of equipment and subject to more stresses and strains...

I guess the complexity depends on the age of the reel (and the angler). Me, I'd rather fuss with a Penn 704 than a Squidder, but perhaps the new super-spinners are dauntingly intricate.  :P

Stresses and strains? Sure, lots, because if you think about it, spinners are basically a winch turned sideways. Can you imagine how that concept would work mounted on the front of a jeep??  :o 

But I will always treasure my doughty vintage coffee grinders; they'll outlast me, and I actually derive considerable satisfaction from that.  :)

~A~

There are lots of things to explore here.
The first one to look at is CPI/Inflation. $200 today is equivalent to about $75 in the mid 80's - how was the quality of a $75 reel back then?
Next, performance is relative to the best available. A modern Stella, Saltiga, Exist... they are like silk. The smoothness, precision, power, function is just incredible. You pick up what was once considered a relatively high-end reel, take for example a Penn SS, and it feels... agricultural by comparison. No instant anti-reverse, the gear meshing is very obvious - the automatic bail closure works by bashing the bail arm into the stem. Yes, tough, simple, and probably reliable, but the reality is it performs considerably worse in many regards than even a very cheap modern spinner.
A $50 Shimano is probably 90% (or more) as smooth as a $500 Shimano, which is quite incredible really. Consider the "reel purchasing triangle" of Cheap - High Performance - Durable - you only get to choose two. Some reels get surprisingly close to 2.5 out of 3, like the modern Daiwa BG.
The modern cheap spinner, in the vein of essentially use-and-replace consumer goods, undoubtedly selects Cheap and High Performance. Due to the complexity required to obtain the performance the average consumer is looking for, at a price they will accept, cuts have to be made in terms of materials etc.

As for complexity - I did a gear swap on a Stella 6000SWB from HG to PG, and at one point I would have had over 50 parts laid out in front of me. They have over 100 parts in total. It feels excessively complex, but man do they perform.....

Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on June 16, 2022, 10:34:25 AMWould it contribute to the discussion at all if I pretend to have my feathers ruffled? If so I can take one for the team.

Not too initially keen on the talk of the younger generations lacking the skills. I'm one of those young folks. But then my posts do a good job demonstrating that there's skills I definitely lack.

Jason - Sure you have the skills and the desire, as do many.  I hope I didn't make this sound generational.  I think Tommy wisely points out what makes the Ohana community special - we are all here because we are who we are and are dedicated to learning, sharing, and appreciation of well made things.  I would "almost" suggest that many of us are fisherman second, which is FINE.  :d   But when you scroll down on the home page to the Forum stats we have around 15K members (of various level of involvement - that is fine - I like that folks find this site and I am cool if they find it helpful but do not feel the need to be heavily involved).  But I am guessing that major manufacturers are not looking to sell 15K units; and to be honest we are probably NOT their target market on many items.  The AT Community is very special, but while it is (IMHO) the Greatest Brain Trust of Fishing Design and Development, I have to think that for the majority of what these businesses are creating we would not fall into their "target sales demographic". = - john

Great topic can't believe I missed it from it's beginning. I'm just south of the o.p.  Penn is King here and only due to cheap price but Shimano is nearly on top. I have also seen quality go down but I think it started back a few years further. I'm not so sure is industry driven or societally driven. No one wants anything be it a cell phone, a car or a reel before they want the next best model. I used to think planned obsolescence in engineering was the fault of companies. But society is now obcessed with trends and trendy. Here it's to have at least 500,000 into a shiny tow vehicle with a color coordinated boat, motor and trailer. Even their shiny polyester sporty clothes matches. And in the rod racks, reels and rods that are color coordinated to match their braid. This year blue, next year orange. Nothing needs to last more than a season when it must be replaced after next ICast for one more added ball bearing and pink. It's all the fault of what passes as fishermen these days.

Quote from: Brewcrafter on June 17, 2022, 01:24:52 AM

Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on June 16, 2022, 10:34:25 AMWould it contribute to the discussion at all if I pretend to have my feathers ruffled? If so I can take one for the team.

Not too initially keen on the talk of the younger generations lacking the skills. I'm one of those young folks. But then my posts do a good job demonstrating that there's skills I definitely lack.

Jason - Sure you have the skills and the desire, as do many.  I hope I didn't make this sound generational.  I think Tommy wisely points out what makes the Ohana community special - we are all here because we are who we are and are dedicated to learning, sharing, and appreciation of well made things.  I would "almost" suggest that many of us are fisherman second, which is FINE.  :d   But when you scroll down on the home page to the Forum stats we have around 15K members (of various level of involvement - that is fine - I like that folks find this site and I am cool if they find it helpful but do not feel the need to be heavily involved).  But I am guessing that major manufacturers are not looking to sell 15K units; and to be honest we are probably NOT their target market on many items.  The AT Community is very special, but while it is (IMHO) the Greatest Brain Trust of Fishing Design and Development, I have to think that for the majority of what these businesses are creating we would not fall into their "target sales demographic". = - john

The manufacturers probably have 2-3 target markets in mind. My guess is that there's an entry level market, an upmarket consumer, and a market for users who utilize the products commercially (e.g., charter operations).

There are plenty of people who use a rod and reel combo only 2 or 3 times a year. I don't know that with this light use maintenance is going to be necessary in the absence of something strange happening. It makes sense to have options in the market for these people. If the reel stops working after 3 or 4 years they'll probably just get the newer whizbang and throw the old one in the back of the shed.

But I have found that if you're even a heavy casual fisherman, one skill you're going to need is to maintain your equipment. Durability and readily available replacement parts is probably a non-negotiable for a heavy casual fisherman and the commercial operation. It's just that there are fewer of these users than there are of the 2-3 times a year types.

The advent of braid probably pushed materials science for fishing reels, where there was a lot of benefit in making a smaller, lighter reel which could nonetheless handle line with serious breaking strength. I have a 850SS laying around and it is absolutely mammoth for a spinning reel (I had matched it up with a surf rod). It's naturally cumbersome due to its size and weight, and if you could develop a reel with advanced materials that is smaller and lighter and could handle 65# braid you'd do it - it's just that the materials and engineering necessary to fit that kind of performance into a smaller, lighter reel make the whole affair much more expensive per unit. So the market here seems to have divided into real high end equipment and the lower end, entry level stuff which doesn't tale to repair as well.

Likewise, the upgraded frames for conventionals, and later the machined side plates and eventually the all aluminum higher end small conventional reels arose as the result of trying to push smaller, lighter reels to handle higher drag stresses without torquing the reel or stripping its main gear (or a dozen other things that could go wrong). Once braid becomes the standard, the consumer is going to want a smaller spool and a smaller reel but one which can handle serious stress - it seems to me as a non-engineer that the most direct way out of that problem is stronger, lighter materials which are bound to be more expensive. 
 

For a while my go to reels were Quantum Cabo C series.  Stainless main, titanium bail wire, stainless handle. The parts were incredibly cheap and available at Tackleservice. For example, you could order a new complete rotor for a pts60 for $12. That included the rotor, and the complete bail assembly. Shame it's gone.

well, Im 51yo so, I dont think I can qualify for "younger generation" anymore  ;D

but I like new tech stuff, smooth, strong and reliable but you know what ? cheap cant be part of that same sentence and youg and vintage guys know that already since that apply to Everything in todays world.
so, its just matter to choose your poison:
smooth + strong + cheap = disposable
smooth + strong + expensive = good
smooth + cheap + good = not strong
kind smooth + not strong + cheap = very disposable.
etc, etc

then you have the AT.com reelheads which are the active members that want to make changes to those equations and looking to change "disposable reels" that were smooth and cheap strong but with one or two bad parts to make them "affordable" custom building parts for those reels to save them from the trash can.
this apply to cars, electronics, etc

and yes, I like new stuff but dont like their prices  :'( 

Quote from: ourford on January 24, 2023, 12:27:42 PMFor a while my go to reels were Quantum Cabo C series.  Stainless main, titanium bail wire, stainless handle. The parts were incredibly cheap and available at Tackleservice. For example, you could order a new complete rotor for a pts60 for $12. That included the rotor, and the complete bail assembly. Shame it's gone.

The Cabo's are incredible.Yes, they are gone but I use them excusively.
I have an inventory of 100's and 120's with parts and they are the reel for me.
With 60 lbs of drag, You can't beat them for horsing in big fish in a small package compared to a Senator.

Penn did an analysis of the old 740Zs when they reintroduced them and at $250. They were losing money on every reel made.

Despite all of the teeth gnashing and cries of "return the Z series or riot!" and "old school is better than new school" the return was a complete flop with no sales to justify it. People just don't want to pay for that style reel in any meaningful numbers.

Given the quality of materials the Z series reels are $300+ reels that no one wants at that price. A tank with relatively terrible drag performance and slow retrieves.

I'd rather fish a Slammer III as a vastly more capable reel. And I pay double that for a spinning reel to jig and pop over big fish when it costs serious money to get over fish. Its a fraction of what the day on the water costs offshore.

The lack of longevity and performance in sub-$200 reels is due to labor costs....But I'd still say a Battle DX with stainless gears is as tough as they come at that price. Daiwa MQ seems pretty tough as well.

Fact of the matter, inflation over the last 50 years is a thing. Newer spinners are vastly more capable, but you gotta pay for them.

I certainly think the successor of the Shimano Stradic Ci4+ series, the Vanford is very flimsy feeling in comparison to its progenitor.

Hey, even "Alan Hawk" thinks the Penn Battle III is a tough customer.

The guys doesn't know a damn thing about big fish and sometimes jumps through hoops to bash Penn but he likes the Battle III for the coin.

Shimano, Daiwa, Penn all offer many lines of reels to cover all the price points. None are designed, or built, to last forever!

For saltwater applications, I have Shimano Stradic 4k, Saragosa 6k, 10k, TwinPower 14k, Penn Battle 6k, Okuma Makaira 20k.

The Battle was my 1st offshore spinner. Out here in Southern California, they're referred to as coffee grinders... it's not a term of affection!

Quote from: MarkT on July 01, 2023, 12:58:18 AMOut here in Southern California, they're referred to as coffee grinders... it's not a term of affection!

But an improvement from egg beater!

I find if you spend a bit of time researching you can find fantastic modern spinners for good prices, the corossion resistance for one is much improved through new tech.

I think it comes down to what youre after in the sub $200 modern spinners. Different brands have different strengths. For a given size, daiwa has the best line capacity, shimano has the best drags, penn has the best marketing.

I have a Slammer IV. Hardly a "coffee grinder". A little heavy, but very capable offshore reel with excellent drag. For more money you can get the DX with stainless gears.

Quote from: Reeltyme on June 16, 2022, 09:35:16 AMI guess my biggest complaint is ordering parts. I almost never find a schematic for the model I am servicing and end up talking to a rep. to find something that I can substitute. The, Oh that model is obsolete. A 2 year old $600 Twin Power Shimano should not be "obsolete".

I have avoided commenting on this thread because I realy do not like spinners  I use a few for casting light jigs for kokanee though.

The above quote is why I will never recomend or buy another Shimano reel.  I realy like the ones I have but parts are a major PIA and my go to salmon reel (not a spinner)  is in a box due discontinuing the reel and no support.... it was a >$400 MSRP reel.

I have replaced the Curado 401TE with a ABU Alphmar and so far I like it even though it is a "right hand" reel.  I prefer my level wind reels to be LH, all but one of my conventional reels are RH.... and it is a Shimano Ocea Jigger.

Jason,
There are always exceptions when making broad statements.  My son is also one of the exceptions.
He has a college degree (and $0.00 student lown debt) and a trade,  journeyman HVAC.  Lots of "farm kids" know how to work and repair things still.

My spinning reel arsenal has always consisted of top of the line saltwater reels from every era starting in the early 70's.  The Penn reels were considered the best in the 70's and 80's and their price was consistent for a top of the line reel.  Into the 90's the gold and black Spinfisher SS was well built and continued as a bullet proof reel that you could easily service on your own.  All of a sudden Shimano and Daiwa got into the game and smooth, fast, and long casting reels popped up to challenge Penn, some at a high price.  Durability wasn't their strong point.  In the late 90's the Super Spinners began popping up that had ALL the top tier features included and servicing became easily available.  Shimano and Daiwa began to dominate this market while Penn SS reels purchased in the 80's were still in use by hardcore fishermen. Shimano and Daiwa kept selling reels while no newer Penn's were competing with them until the Torque line was introduced.  The Torque, while solidly constructed and self serviceable, lacked the refinement of Shimano and Daiwa.
Planned obsolescence has become the norm while my Torque and Torque II Penn's will still be functioning long after I'm gone.  Whatever is the current line of the Stella reels will be in my line up because of ease of use and availability of service for recently acquired models.  Fisherman lose again because a solid reel like the Penn Torque has become, unplanned, obsolete.

Quote from: Reeltyme on June 16, 2022, 09:35:16 AMThe, Oh that model is obsolete. A 2 year old $600 Twin Power Shimano should not be "obsolete ".

Wait a second, what?

Yes, Shimano isn't as good as supporting previous models as other brands, but either you bought some really, really old new-old-stock or the person who told you it was obsolete was mistaken.
I just warrantied a spool on a nearly 10 year old Shimano that was discontinued 5 years ago, no problems.

Wait a second, what?

Yes, Shimano isn't as good as supporting previous models as other brands, but either you bought some really, really old new-old-stock or the person who told you it was obsolete was mistaken.
I just warrantied a spool on a nearly 10 year old Shimano that was discontinued 5 years ago, no problems.

[/quote]

Actually I didn't buy the reel, I was servicing it for a customer, and the gentleman at Shimano was and older sounding gentleman that again, sounded like he knew what he was talking about. I have and continue to service a lot of Shimano reels in my area, they are just not a quality made reel.

I think that 10 year old reel getting warrantied was a matter of luck. I dont think shimano lies when they say they can't warranty something because parts aren't available. I think they continue to warranty stuff, til they run out of that part. Then it's tough luck for everyone after.

That is how I see it to Jason.
However, I worked for one of the top people in Shimano USA and he told me that the world wide corpret philosophy is modeled on the auto industry in the '60s.  Come out with a new model every year and convince their customers that "new and improved" is better.... it rarely is. 

I was VERY happy with Shimano when Japan-made Stradics & Curados
were <$100, RETAIL!!!  ...been a while  ::) ::) ::)

Quote from: Keta on July 05, 2023, 01:35:02 PMThat is how I see it to Jason.
However, I worked for one of the top people in Shimano USA and he told me that the world wide corpret philosophy is modeled on the auto industry in the '60s.  Come out with a new model every year and convince their customers that "new and improved" is better.... it rarely is. 

way older strategy, unless you mean 1860's  ;D ;D ;D
catalog sewing machines & suck-brooms

Same thinking. 

I have 50 year old Penn reels I can still get parts for, unfortunatly not the 349/349H, and a 8 year old $400 Shimano that parts are imposable to get.

Quality is more than just producing a good product.

Consider two companies that have developed successful customer-driven quality programs: L.L. Bean, Inc. and Caterpillar Tractor Company. Although these two companies are in different businesses—L.L. Bean sells outdoor apparel and equipment primarily through mail-order while Caterpillar manufactures earth-moving equipment, diesel engines, and materials-handling devices, which it sells through dealers—both enjoy an enviable reputation for high quality.

Some 96.7% of 3,000 customers L.L. Bean recently surveyed said that quality is the attribute they like most about the company. Bean executes a customer-driven quality program by:

Conducting regular customer satisfaction surveys and sample group interviews to track customer and noncustomer perceptions of the quality of its own and its competitors' products and services.

Tracking on its computer all customer inquiries and complaints and updating the file daily.

Guaranteeing all its products to be 100% satisfactory and providing a full cash refund, if requested, on any returns.

Asking customers to fill out a short, coded questionnaire and explain their reasons for returning the merchandise.

Performing extensive field tests on any new outdoor equipment before listing it in the company's catalogs.

Even stocking extra buttons for most of the apparel items carried years ago, just in case a customer needs one.

Despite recent financial setbacks, Caterpillar continues to be fully committed to sticking with its quality program, which includes:
Conducting two customer satisfaction surveys following each purchase, one after 300 hours of product use and the second after 500 hours of use.

Maintaining a centrally managed list of product problems as identified by customers from around the world.

Analyzing warranty and service reports submitted by dealers, as part of a product improvement program.

Asking dealers to conduct a quality audit as soon as the products are received and to attribute defects to either assembly errors or shipping damages.

Guaranteeing 48—hour delivery of any part to any customer in the world.

Responsibility for quality cannot rest exclusively with the production department. Marketers must also be active in contributing to perceptions of quality. Marketers have been too passive in managing quality. Successful businesses of today will use marketing techniques to plan, design, and implement quality strategies that stretch beyond the factory floor.

Most fishing reel marketing departments today are relying on planned obsolescence, shiny decals and lots of plastics, and cheap labor from Asia. 

Penn seems to be the exception to this rule.  Parts are available, reels are somewhat standardized over the years, and they take care of their customers.

Good luck trying to get a plastic part that failed after a few fishing trips — on a Chinese or Malaysian Marvel Spinning Reel — just toss it in the trash can.

Cheap screws that fasten maybe one or two times into graphite or plastic frames, gears made of soft alloys that seldom hold up to a serious fish, parts that just snap in two.

Quality is a lot more than just producing a product — it is a two-way street based on the proper and durable materials and engineering — coupled with good customer service and support after the sale.

If you give the customer the over the top service that they do not expect —  at a fair price point — they will remain loyal.

These are some of the reasons why I have chosen to specialize in servicing, repairing, and restoring only about (5) brands of Vintage Spinning Reels.  Plus the fact that I do have massive stocks of parts for the vintage DAM Quicks, Mitchells, Penns, Cardinals, and ABU's.

Best, Fred

Fred,,, Amen.

I may be an outlier here but I'd rather fish with a 2023 Daiwa Saltiga 4000, in the full knowledge that in say 15 years I will be retiring it due to being unable to replace some or another part, than, well literally any other reel you can name.

I think it just boils down to modern reels having higher build quality, consistency and performance, whereas older reels have higher durability, simplicity and servicability.

I would say its part manufacturer strategy and part design that contribute to this. Everyone is familiar with the "planned obsolescence" mindset that leads to old models being discontinued and parts being harder to find. Also, newer reels use more fragile parts that, while strong enough, won't last as long as the metal parts of older reels.

On the design side, older reels tend to be simpler so they are easier to service, but some of these simplicity measures to me might not make sense in today's context. For instance, few vintage spinners have line roller bushings/bearings. As Alan Hawk warns people who want to fish older reels like the Penn SS, they have to make sure the line rollers spin freely lest braid cuts into it, damaging the braid and the roller.

To add on, while the materials of older reels may be better, the design may not suit modern expectations of what a reel can do. Old designs like the anti reverse engaging the main gear and worm drive give vintage reels a huge disadvantage in terms of size of fish they can catch compared to a modern reel.

If I remember correctly, accounting for inflation, a modern shimano spheros 6000 would be around the same price as a DAM Finessa or 330/330N back in the day. I would bet my house that the spheros would outperform the older reel in every aspect. Of course, after 20 years or so, the DAM would maintain its performance while the spheros would need replacement parts.

I also find the "pot metal parts" argument a bit weird. I mean, to me seems like a lot of people here like the 1980s era Daiwa reels which used pot metal main gears, and the pot metal and gear design in a modern BG is an improvement from that. Then again, its not like I was around in the 80s or 90s, so I everything I mention here might not be fair.

I wonder what you old folks will think of this statement: "Older conventionals have aged better than older spinning reels"

"New And Improved" often isn't improved.

Ah, but the new reels look good, don't have handle slop due to the ARB, feel smooth when you turn the handle and are advertised with high drag numbers... so you buy it. Mission accomplished!

Penn, LL Bean, and Caterpillar. They have to be my three favorite companies. I have never been disappointed  in any of my Penn reels, any of the stuff I get from Bean or my 3126 Cat. I guess it is about a person's temperament and mindset. Owning a reel that I know I won't be able to get parts for in a few years would never work for me. Totally unacceptable. Don't care how smooth or modern it is.

Quote from: Finest Kind on July 08, 2023, 03:45:14 PMI guess it is about a person's temperament and mindset...

well, yeah...  pretty good bet that in this bunch everyone ENJOYS working on reels
imagine[with diffuculty ;) ] someone who DOES NOT :o :o :o, yet enjoys their high-paying job
few extra hours of work they like, allows 'em to replace reels without ever looking inside, 
much less worrying about premature obsolescence & parts availability

Quote from: philaroman on July 08, 2023, 04:58:06 PM

Quote from: Finest Kind on July 08, 2023, 03:45:14 PMI guess it is about a person's temperament and mindset...

well, yeah...  pretty good bet that in this bunch everyone ENJOYS working on reels

I really enjoy working on and servicing most spinning reels, but since I'm an old school dude I'm pretty selective about the circa of the reels I'll work on. I've only worked on a couple of reels newer than the mid '90s. After those experiences I opted out of working on anything newer than around 2000. Heck, I've even refused to work on a select few older than 2000. IMHO most of those I've looked at are pretty much just Asian made junk looking for a burial site.  ::)   ;D

Quote from: philaroman on July 08, 2023, 04:58:06 PM

Quote from: Finest Kind on July 08, 2023, 03:45:14 PMI guess it is about a person's temperament and mindset...

well, yeah...  pretty good bet that in this bunch everyone ENJOYS working on reels
imagine[with diffuculty ;) ] someone who DOES NOT :o :o :o, yet enjoys their high-paying job
few extra hours of work they like, allows 'em to replace reels without ever looking inside,
much less worrying about premature obsolescence & parts availability

Terrible to contemplate. People like that don't know what they are missing.

I work on whatever my customer brings through my door. I am currently servicing 2 year and a half old Daiwa spinners. WOW, didn't know they could fit that many bearings in something that small! My train of thought, the more moving parts may equal a smoother ride, but it also increases the chance of a breakdown, and they do. I truly enjoy working on and servicing reels of all kinds, it's kind of like therapy without paying out the big bucks! This doesn't change my original statement, new reels just won't last.

Fact of the matter is that a Penn 704 was a high end reel bitd.

Even now, manufacturing a 704 to that level would make it a $300+ reel made in USA, maybe $199 offshore. No one buys them at those prices.

If you buy a Daiwa Crossfire its a miracle of die and tooling for $25. Utterly reliable for the vast majority of freshwater fish (the majority of the fishing market).

What's the point? In 1950's dollars what we get for $99-$199 is actually amazing. Its more the mis-application of say, carbon/plastic reel bodies to the winch 'em in style of pro bass blasters that blows up reels or the complete neglect of reels in the salt.

In my opinion, the makers are competing tooth and nail to give the consumer exactly what they want and doing a remarkable job.

Try the Penn Battle DX (5000 size ~$160). All metal body, brass gears and all sealed bearings. Re-pack the bearings with marine bearing grease and with any kind of additional care should last a very, very long time. Fishes way better than a 704 with faster retrieve, instant AR, better casting and better drag.

Its a better reel than a 704, for most people's fishing, yet costs less in 1950's dollars. What's not to like?  ^-^

Quote from: johndtuttle on August 02, 2023, 03:42:43 AMIts a better reel than a 704, for most people's fishing, yet costs less in 1950's dollars. What's not to like?  ^-^

Well, again, the new reels are smooth and I'm not sure I agree with you dollar conversion rate, that would require more than a guess, but I can say with certainty that the newer reels will not last anywhere near as long as the old ones. I still think the conversion rate is off as well. I'm not sure the manufacturers are giving the consumer what they want so much as ""our research" has found that this is better and you need this" is more the mentality, and in my opinion, the cost of today's reel is stupid. A recent trip to a small local sporting goods store surprised me, every reel of every brand was $200 +/-! Except for a slight difference in color, every reel looked exactly the same, and probably is. Kind of like today's autos, all the same. But again, this is only my opinion.

Quote from: Reeltyme on August 02, 2023, 09:59:16 AM

Quote from: johndtuttle on August 02, 2023, 03:42:43 AMIts a better reel than a 704, for most people's fishing, yet costs less in 1950's dollars. What's not to like?  ^-^

Well, again, the new reels are smooth and I'm not sure I agree with you dollar conversion rate, that would require more than a guess, but I can say with certainty that the newer reels will not last anywhere near as long as the old ones. I still think the conversion rate is off as well. I'm not sure the manufacturers are giving the consumer what they want so much as ""our research" has found that this is better and you need this" is more the mentality, and in my opinion, the cost of today's reel is stupid. A recent trip to a small local sporting goods store surprised me, every reel of every brand was $200 +/-! Except for a slight difference in color, every reel looked exactly the same, and probably is. Kind of like today's autos, all the same. But again, this is only my opinion.

Sorry, I was way off. Its even worse!

For the price of a 704 in 1960 you could buy a "super spinner" Stella or Saltiga today. These reels are shockingly more advanced than reels of yore.

"$100 in 1960 is equivalent in purchasing power to about $1,027.46 today, an increase of $927.46 over 63 years. The dollar had an average inflation rate of 3.77% per year between 1960 and today, producing a cumulative price increase of 927.46%.
https://www.in2013dollars.com/us/inflation/1960
U.S. Inflation Calculator
https://www.in2013dollars.com/us/inflation/1960
Value of 1960 dollars today | Inflation Calculator"

The price of reels like the Daiwa BG or Penn Battle III that are around $100-150 today would have been around $10-$15 or less in 1960 (approximately when the 704 was introduced).

They are vastly more fishable reels imo (drag and retrieval speed), IF, a little less tough. Better for Braid, instant AR, far better distance casting.

Remember, I'm the guy that wrote the service tutorial here for the 704Z. I know what they can and can't do. They aren't going to land 100# GTs or 200# tunas like the top spinners today can. People today are looking for something that fishes better than the old reels. I even get my Jigmaster on, still, every once in a while and will tell you flat out for $99 the Penn Warfare is a much more capable and tougher geared reel and more of a pleasure to fish. Old spinners are fun, nostalgia reels. But, as above, for the money today there are more capable options.

I'm going to reintroduce a counterpoint that has been offered before, but is still relevant.

If memory serves a 704 has like 10# max drag on a good day. That's like an abrams tank with a 22LR main gun. I would bet that any of these maligned modern spinners would also last forever if they never saw more than 10# of drag. And I would love to see how a 704 (with a heavily modified drag) would fare after after a few years of use at 20-25# of drag. Probably not bad, because its sized (and priced) like a tank. but I'd be amazed to not see some resulting wear.

Putting words in someone's mouth for the sake of argument: "but 25# drag is not what the 704 was designed for"

And does that make it a better reel, a lesser reel, or should we be comparing it to maybe the 1000 size battle 3 not the big one? After all, similar design loads. Let's not get into weight difference.

Interesting how this discussion has evolved from a general opinion of run of the mill reels that the average Joe can afford to a comparison between two specific decades apart models from one reel maker.  :-\

Quote from: Midway Tommy on August 02, 2023, 04:52:22 PMInteresting how this discussion has evolved from a general opinion of run of the mill reels that the average Joe can afford to a comparison between two specific decades apart models from one reel maker.  :-\

Tommy, It's just that, a difference in opinion. Nothing wrong with that. You and I are both old school guys that enjoy making a 40 to 50 year old reel still perform. I still stand with my "opinion". I think the newer reels are overpriced for what you get. By the way, just received this in the mail today.
This is what I'm talking about,,expensive reels that don't hold up.

---

Here's one —-

Why do modern spinning reels have 9 to 13 bearings?

——————————————————-

Because a graphite/plastic/Tupperware reel frame with plastic parts needs those bearing to operate.

And the marketing guys turn that feature into a selling point of how many bearings their reels have.

But the nature of a graphite/plastic frame only allows perhaps 2 or 3 disassembles and services before the cheap self threading screws become impossible to snug up because the holes are now distorted.

But with plastic reels —- 2 or 3 services is about all that is possible, generally —- since plastic breaks, and companies do not generally stock parts after a few years, anyway.  And if they do —- a couple of parts cost more than a new reel.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion that works for them.

Best, Fred

To be clear i have nothing against older reels. Even before my trip to the panhandle I think I owned and fished more reels that are older than me than younger than me (I'm 36). Now the new reels are definitely outnumbered.

But if we try to argue that older reels are categorically better than new reels, we have to admit we are stating opinion not fact, and that's ok. And if we try to argue the opposite, we need to admit the same. And thats also ok.

There were crap reels in the 60s, and there's plenty of crap reels today.

I don't know if they actually need all those ball bearings in newer reels. It is just that they are cheap nowadays,and customers value a large ball bearing count. They are situations where they handle misalignment slightly better than plain bearings (AKA bushings)- but I suspect it is just cheaper to design, and easier to sell.

I would argue that differences from "classic" to "modern" are mostly in form factor and repairability.   Newer reels have sizing, spool geometries, crosswinding and drag stacks to accommodate braid.  But their hasn't really been any breakthroughs in design.

The roller clutch/one way bearings are a new feature, and are popular, but functionally don't do that much for you, and are one of the most common failure points. 

Support, especially long term support, managing parts manufacturing, inventory and delivery is quite expensive for the reel company, and has to get factored into pricing.  A reel with the same basic capabilities, but a limited useful life can be offered at a lower price point.  And few reels are used enough to actually wear them out.  Folks would rather buy a new $90 reel than pay $50 to get a $300 reel fixed. 

Same for many manufactured products nowadays.  In constant dollars, products back in the day were so expensive that repair was justified.  Nowadays, many products are so inexpensive that repair is no longer the obvious value that it used to be, especially if you have to pay for shipping and labor because you are not going to do it yourself, and there is no local repair shop.

There are sentimental and practical reasons (like reliability) to prefer more robust and repairable gear. but for the majority of the marketplace, they are getting what they want, or in some cases what they think they want :)

There are old reels at attractive price points that can still get the job done today, especially if you fish them old style- monofilament and lighter drag settings.  But the form factor and sometimes the functionality will not be ideal for braid.  And for fishing, braid often provides an advantage.

But if you are going to drop me on a desert island with a single spinning outfit, I would probably sleep better if it was an old Penn.

-J

Quote from: jurelometer on August 02, 2023, 09:05:09 PMBut if you are going to drop me on a desert island with a single spinning outfit, I would probably sleep better if it was an old Penn.

-J

And there, we have no debate. If simplicity and robustness are the metric then a 704Z is the "desert island spinner of choice". And I famously said the same about the Baja Special, one reel to rule them all...on a desert island.

But if I step onto a charter in Panama to ride a center console with triple 300s on it 40 miles to the shelf for a day of battling monsters....those old Penns are gonna stay on the dock with the sailboat.

[quote author=johndtuttle link=msg=439531 date=1691021643

But if I step onto a charter in Panama to ride a center console with triple 300s on it 40 miles to the shelf for a day of battling monsters....those old Penns are gonna stay on the dock with the sailboat.
[/quote]

Your correct! No old spinners on that cruise. Penn Senator 4/0's and 6/0's for that! The older one's of course.

I agree with you Randy, a bloke gave me a Diawa Saltist LTD 6500, he tried to get the screws of off the cover, they are all counter sunk alan key screws, plastered with lock tyte, he could not get the last one out, so he sent it back to Diawa, & they told him there is nothing they can do with it, & sent it back, ( my opinion they should have swapped it for him ),, he gave it to me & said if I cant do any good with it to keep it for parts, so I tried several things to get the alan key to unscrew, with out any luck, including, in & out of the freezer, also holding a soldering iron on it, still know luck, also heat via a heat gun, as the screws are counter sunk about 1/4 of an inch, there was know way to cut a groove with a dremmel, to unscrew it, so my last option was to chizel the conver of, it cracked @ the screw then came apart, I think I maybe able to stick it back together after I fully service it,I am about to cut a groove in it with the dremmel now to see if it will in screw, why they have to use locktite I dont know, just worn the buyers to check the screws often to keep them firm would be the best option, keep well cheers Don.

Quote from: Reeltyme on August 03, 2023, 12:45:13 AM[quote author=johndtuttle link=msg=439531 date=1691021643

But if I step onto a charter in Panama to ride a center console with triple 300s on it 40 miles to the shelf for a day of battling monsters....those old Penns are gonna stay on the dock with the sailboat.

Your correct! No old spinners on that cruise. Penn Senator 4/0's and 6/0's for that! The older one's of course.
[/quote]

No, my friend. That time has past. There is nothing they can do that a modern 2-speed International/Makaira doesn't do vastly better.  ;D

Except maybe sharking from the beach.

I'm with John! Those old spinners in todays dollars weren't cheap. A relatively inexpensive salt water spinner like a Daiwa BG performs better than those old reels. My Saragosa's , Twin Power and Makaira are much better than that Daiwa. But then the 4 banger in my Honda gets more HP then the 289 V8 in the '67 Mustang I drove in college... and way better mileage!

Quote from: johndtuttle on August 03, 2023, 02:54:14 AM

Quote from: johndtuttle on August 03, 2023, 02:37:30 AM

Quote from: Reeltyme on August 03, 2023, 12:45:13 AM[quote author=johndtuttle link=msg=439531 date=1691021643

But if I step onto a charter in Panama to ride a center console with triple 300s on it 40 miles to the shelf for a day of battling monsters....those old Penns are gonna stay on the dock with the sailboat.

Your correct! No old spinners on that cruise. Penn Senator 4/0's and 6/0's for that! The older one's of course.

No, my friend. That time has past. There is nothing they can do that a modern 2-speed International/Makaira doesn't do vastly better.  ;D

Except maybe sharking from the beach, if that's your thing.

I don't think that I am living large enough.  All I saw the inside of in Panama was pangas with a single Yamaha 40 Enduro (sort of the Penn 704 of outboards).  The first thing that I packed each day was a GPS beacon. Those pangeros weren't afraid of a stretch of open  ocean. :)

But no eggbeaters for me.  I'll take a modern low-profile levelwind for tossing poppers at school tuna.

Agree with John on the  modern two speeds all the way for the grownup yellowfin. The classic conventionals have the same form factor tradeoffs that the classic spinners have.  And two speeds, ahhhh...

Nothing wrong with going old school on the gear, if that is your thing.

-J

Quote from: jurelometer on August 03, 2023, 04:01:22 AM

Quote from: johndtuttle on August 03, 2023, 02:54:14 AM

Quote from: johndtuttle on August 03, 2023, 02:37:30 AM

Quote from: Reeltyme on August 03, 2023, 12:45:13 AM[quote author=johndtuttle link=msg=439531 date=1691021643

But if I step onto a charter in Panama to ride a center console with triple 300s on it 40 miles to the shelf for a day of battling monsters....those old Penns are gonna stay on the dock with the sailboat.

Your correct! No old spinners on that cruise. Penn Senator 4/0's and 6/0's for that! The older one's of course.

No, my friend. That time has past. There is nothing they can do that a modern 2-speed International/Makaira doesn't do vastly better.  ;D

Except maybe sharking from the beach, if that's your thing.

I don't think that I am living large enough.  All I saw the inside of in Panama was pangas with a single Yamaha 40 Enduro (sort of the Penn 704 of outboards).  The first thing that I packed each day was a GPS beacon. Those pangeros weren't afraid of a stretch of open  ocean. :)

But no eggbeaters for me.  I'll take a modern low-profile levelwind for tossing poppers at school tuna.

Agree with John on the  modern two speeds all the way for the grownup yellowfin. The classic conventionals have the same form factor tradeoffs that the classic spinners have.  And two speeds, ahhhh...

Nothing wrong with going old school on the gear, if that is your thing.

-J

I like spinners/eggbeaters/coffee grinders for poppers! That 53" per crank with the TwinPower 14k and Makaira 20k is money! I've caught plenty of schoolies with the Saragosa 6k and 10k too, I just have to crank a lot faster between pops. Of course which popper to throw when is a whole 'nother discussion!

With the Saltist LTD 6500, I now find there is a phillips screw in the main shaft, going across the reel & through the main gear shaft this screw is not moving, so maybe more locktite, I have heated it with the oxy, & its still not moving, I am also thinking it maybe a left hand thread, I have now cut through it with the dremmel, & am just waiting for aprentice patty to help hold it. cheers Don.

Quote from: Donnyboat on August 03, 2023, 05:22:36 AMWith the Saltist LTD 6500, I now find there is a phillips screw in the main shaft, going across the reel & through the main gear shaft this screw is not moving, so maybe more locktite, I have heated it with the oxy, & its still not moving, I am also thinking it maybe a left hand thread, I have now cut through it with the dremmel, & am just waiting for aprentice patty to help hold it. cheers Don.

Handi2 is the guy you want to talk to about that screw. He owns and has serviced as many of the old Saltists as anyone. IIRC it's held by red loctite and heat is the only way to get it out but the threads are normal. As bad or worse is that you have to remove the right side bearing too to get the main gear out and that is a challenge too.

Handi2 (Keith) will tell you good things about the reel over-all, once a few things have been replaced (like the horrible hex screws on the body). He says they're unkillable after that plus a few other small and cheap substitutions. The old Saltist is a main-stay for popping from the beach in Mexico due to its relatively low cost and high speed retrieve.

The most recent BG suffers from corrosion problems with the pinion assembly (wide open to salt) and the main shaft is too light (reports of many bent shafts).

That Penn Battle III or DX is a tough little tank that should satisfy any old-schooler here. It could stand some tiny improvements in a couple of areas but otherwise is the true inheritor of the 704Z legacy, imo. Simple, all metal body and brass gears, sealed bearings. Should last a lifetime although I have to admit the brass alloy of the gears is probably not the equal of the 704z.

But far cheaper in 1960's dollars  :d .

Quote from: johndtuttle on August 03, 2023, 01:56:44 PM

Quote from: Donnyboat on August 03, 2023, 05:22:36 AMWith the Saltist LTD 6500, I now find there is a phillips screw in the main shaft, going across the reel & through the main gear shaft this screw is not moving, so maybe more locktite, I have heated it with the oxy, & its still not moving, I am also thinking it maybe a left hand thread, I have now cut through it with the dremmel, & am just waiting for aprentice patty to help hold it. cheers Don.

Handi2 is the guy you want to talk to about that screw. He owns and has serviced as many of the old Saltists as anyone. IIRC it's held by red loctite and heat is the only way to get it out but the threads are normal. As bad or worse is that you have to remove the right side bearing too to get the main gear out and that is a challenge too.

Handi2 (Keith) will tell you good things about the reel over-all, once a few things have been replaced (like the horrible hex screws on the body). He says they're unkillable after that plus a few other small and cheap substitutions. The old Saltist is a main-stay for popping from the beach in Mexico due to its relatively low cost and high speed retrieve.

The most recent BG suffers from corrosion problems with the pinion assembly (wide open to salt) and the main shaft is too light (reports of many bent shafts).

That Penn Battle III or DX is a tough little tank that should satisfy any old-schooler here. It could stand some tiny improvements in a couple of areas but otherwise is the true inheritor of the 704Z legacy, imo. Simple, all metal body and brass gears, sealed bearings. Should last a lifetime although I have to admit the brass alloy of the gears is probably not the equal of the 704z.

But far cheaper in 1960's dollars  :d .

John, we lost Keith to cancer back in April. Before he went, he generously passed down to me all of his collection that he didn't sell or give to family members.

Don, included in that is 2 old saltist 4500H in various states of disassembly. If any parts from those would benefit your project, let me know and you will see yet another benefit to my very slow shipping.

Keith was a true resource to this community and very generously gave of his time and knowledge.

I am very sorry to hear of our loss and particularly for his family and closer friends.

Thanks Jason, I will email you, cheers Don.

Quote from: foakes on August 02, 2023, 08:08:46 PMHere's one —-

Why do modern spinning reels have 9 to 13 bearings?

——————————————————-

Because a graphite/plastic/Tupperware reel frame with plastic parts needs those bearing to operate.

And the marketing guys turn that feature into a selling point of how many bearings their reels have.

But the nature of a graphite/plastic frame only allows perhaps 2 or 3 disassembles and services before the cheap self threading screws become impossible to snug up because the holes are now distorted.

But with plastic reels —- 2 or 3 services is about all that is possible, generally —- since plastic breaks, and companies do not generally stock parts after a few years, anyway.  And if they do —- a couple of parts cost more than a new reel.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion that works for them.

Best, Fred

Fred I would never question your wisdom as it has proven to be sage over the years.

There was a time when bearing count became the buzz word for "quality" and it has persisted to this day though the rating on the seals is now the "buzz" ie IPX 5, 7, 8 etc.

All I can say in weak defense of the very low end plastic reels is that for the price ($25-50) they are truly disposable in today's dollars. One good service will also be enough in Fresh Water for many years of light use (like most gear gets).

Fact of the matter is that $100-150 is entry level quality for saltwater. There we are starting to see remarkably good products as tech for more expensive reels becomes cheaper in mass production and trickles down to the low end. Note: This is not a defense of graphite reel bodies and rotors. Mostly I have no use for them.

When Penn can finally afford the tooling for forged main gears we will enter further into a golden age for spinners. Arguably (at least I and some others would argue) we have entered a golden age for some time with the advent of the Shimano Stella and Daiwa Saltiga et al of the super spinners. They truly are amazing examples of the state of the art.

Best regards always,

John

Thanks, John —-

Same goes for your thoughtful responses.

My opinions on reels are basically what an average guy who enjoys the significance of fishing with old reliables —- can both afford and perhaps learn to service and repair themselves.

I have just moved into this little niche of mine by being fortunate enough to offer help, service, advice, and parts for a few certain top quality spinner brands from about the mid 50's through the late 80's.

This, after working on nearly every type of reel that came across the bench over the last 40+ years.

Top end spinners like the Stella's and other similar models are certainly for guys who can afford world-class trips and to exotic places. 

$1000 to $1300 is a far cry from a $50 to $200 Penn, DQ, ABU, or perhaps even a Mitchell.

And there are a lot of $200 to $300 big game reels on the market.

I just enjoy the nostalgia, history, superior materials, and dead-simple engineering of the solid reels from the golden age of spinners before they sold their souls to Asia.

And the high ends have their place when chasing those big uglies down in Panama or Costa Rica.

Here again —- lots of ways to approach our passions.

Best, Fred

John,
IMHO, ball bearings, and the number of them, became the "buzz word" and indicator of quality only to those that didn't, and still don't, understand the quality and concept of oilites. Personally,  I would much rather have a spinning reel with one ball bearing on the pinion, and maybe one on the line guide, and five or six oilites at the other strategic locations than a spinning reel with eight or ten ball bearings. I have yet to see an oilite wear out, even in fifty or sixty year old heavily used reels, but I see ball and roller bearings all the time of that age that need replacement. It's actually a shame that oilites are seldom, if ever, seen on new reels.

The multiple ball bearing phase/fiasco started in Asian made reels of lesser quality materials so that they appeared to be as smooth and as high of quality as reels that contained oilites in strategic locations. Not exactly sure why, but maybe Japan didn't have decent access to oilite material back in those days, but the ball bearing craze continues on to this day.

Maybe someday a smart reel maker will go back to oilites where they best work.  :D

I hate ball bearings at the base of the gear sleeve on many small reels. They sit in a sump and easily rust/corrode. A good brass bushing would be better in that location. But, you pick up a reel in the store, turn the handle, express that it's so smooth, buy it... victory! They've accomplished their goal!

I think what happened was for other spots in the reel they forst downgraded to nylon bushings in those spots. But those sucked, so the upgrade was to go to ball bearings.

Not a spinner but my bantam 100 is running bushings not bearings, and I kinda like it that way. It still spins free enough for me to get a ratnest if I'm distracted.

An interesting update on the Shimano I just posted pictures of that I received in the mail. 3 bearings in the reel, the 2 located at each end of the handle are a little "gravely" feeling and main bearing at the end of the pinion is frozen. I prefer my greenie.

Is there any way to keep water out of ball bearings in fishing reels, without a detailed service after each fishing trip? Even the ones with seals, including on the ball bearings?

Agree with Tommy and Mark's last posts. I love Oilite Bushings!

Thanks for the Allen Hawk reference on the Penn BattleIII, Mark. Looks like a "battle"is on and continuing with lower cost, heavy duty spinners that have some good features, if not the best materials. The Fin-Nor LT 100, then the new Daiwa BG's and now the Penn BattleIII. Who will make the next—even better—spinner with that lower price point?

Manufacturers can save some money buy using nylon bushings, and in areas that are prone to water penetration and corrosion, nylon might last longer than a non-maintained ball bearing.

I would guess that ball bearings are so cheap now, that going to oil impregnated sintered bronze plain bearings (AKA Oilite bushings), doesn't save much if any cost, especially considering that plain bearings need a specific interference fit and have to be pressed in, vs dropping a ball bearing into a pocket that is around the right size. And as we all have noted, the customer has been conditioned to equate bearing count to quality.

Oilites are self lubricating, and are relatively low friction.  Once you fully grease up a ball bearing, it is going to have more resistance than an oilite. However, these plain bearings are more subject to wear than ball bearings when the shaft is not well aligned.  A longer plain bearing spreads out the load better and can help keep the shaft aligned.  That is why it is a bit tricky to fit a plain bearing at the base of a conventional star drag handle shaft (not much axial space for a long bearing, and potentially some levering going on when winding) but IMHO, it is doable and preferred if the shaft is properly supported at the other end. And a one-way bearing doesn't really count as support.
 
Ball bearings and one-way bearings- blech!  But I t is easier to give the customer what they are asking for than to educate them on what they actually need.

Beware of getting what you ask for  :P

-J

Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on August 03, 2023, 06:22:39 PMI think what happened was for other spots in the reel they forst downgraded to nylon bushings in those spots. But those sucked, so the upgrade was to go to ball bearings.

Not a spinner but my bantam 100 is running bushings not bearings, and I kinda like it that way. It still spins free enough for me to get a ratnest if I'm distracted.

I replaced the handle-side nylon bushing on mine with a ball bearing. The spool already had ball bearings when I got it. The free-spin-ability seemed to increase slightly...? Or, it was my imagination based on what I thought would happen, especially after the difficulty and expense of acquiring that size ball bearing.
As long as the nylon bushings are right(not pitted or deformed) they'd be preferable to me—-no corrosion to worry about!

Quote from: Reeltyme on August 03, 2023, 06:36:12 PMAn interesting update on the Shimano I just posted pictures of that I received in the mail. 3 bearings in the reel, the 2 located at each end of the handle are a little "gravely" feeling and main bearing at the end of the pinion is frozen. I prefer my greenie.

Inescapably most modern reels are far more complex than the oldies and therefore prone to failure when misused or improperly maintained.

If your sole metric for a reel is "tolerant of abuse and then easily repaired" then yes, the old ones are considerably better by virtue of their simplicity.

Comparing a modern high-end spinner with anything more than even 10 years old borders on laughable. It's like trying to compare a Tesla with a Fordson Tractor, then declaring the Fordson is better overall because it's more easily repaired. My 2c anyway.

Just saying the Fordson is still going. My point.

Quote from: Reeltyme on August 04, 2023, 01:33:44 AMJust saying the Fordson is still going. My point.

But is it better quality?

Quote from: boon on August 04, 2023, 01:40:50 AM

Quote from: Reeltyme on August 04, 2023, 01:33:44 AMJust saying the Fordson is still going. My point.

But is it better quality?

If it lasts longer with less repairs and does the job adequately, I would say yes it's is better quality.  ;)   :D

Fwiw I couldn't agree more that bushings are terrific and Penn uses them in the conventional reels to great effect ie bushings better than bearings in the body supporting the handle on conventional reels.

And (rubber) sealed bearings are amazing, surviving bottom of the ocean sorts of corrosion pressures for months and once cleaned and re-lubed working as new....but they make a reel a tiny bit stiffer and smoothness at the point of sale is a powerful selling point.

Its like judging the Surgeon by the scar left by a surface incision. The healing has more to do with intangibles the patient's dermis possesses rather than a measure of what the quality of the work inside is like. Apparently superficial impressions are fundamental to human nature...who knew? Shimano knows this lesson.

I don't want this thread to become a "I'm right and you're wrong " thing. These are opinions mixed with a few facts. The point I'm trying to make is as stated in the beginning, the reels they produce today are buttery smooth, light weight and flashy looking. Not to mention the high cost. I think we all agree they will never last as long as the reels from years ago. There's something about driving down the road, floating down the River, shooting at game and catching that lunker, all while doing it with a classic! Of course our world today is easier and faster, that doesn't mean it's better. I'll fish with my classics.

I'll buy the new stuff for evaluation as soon as I wear out my Penn 700, if I live long enough.

Quote from: Reeltyme on August 04, 2023, 09:47:23 AMI don't want this thread to become a "I'm right and you're wrong " thing. These are opinions mixed with a few facts. The point I'm trying to make is as stated in the beginning, the reels they produce today are buttery smooth, light weight and flashy looking. Not to mention the high cost. I think we all agree they will never last as long as the reels from years ago. There's something about driving down the road, floating down the River, shooting at game and catching that lunker, all while doing it with a classic! Of course our world today is easier and faster, that doesn't mean it's better. I'll fish with my classics.

Couldn't agree more!

Fishing is a game. None of us wet a line to prevent starvation, although, there are those among us who are real pros at servicing reels.

Use whatever floats your boat!

Sometime take a look at some of "Alan Hawk's" reviews of the super spinners ie the Okuma Makaira Spinner is the strongest spinning reel in the world and a marvel of stainless steel machining technology etc. Point being there is plenty to admire out there, plenty of middle of the road choices and a mountain of Chinese junk!

As long as you are out there distracted from the cares of the world or putting a smile on a wee-one's face you are doing it right, imo! See, even a place for a Barbie rod!


Best regards, John

I appreciate both old and new reels, and each have their place. I'm an angler first, reel/tackle enthusiast... somewhere further down the line. When I go fishing I choose tackle to suit. If my old, even very old, reels will do the job -commensurate with my skills at handling them- I'll be using them. I really enjoy them.

Below is my beloved A&F200/6 (Langley 830). It has a slow retrieve rate but is right at home for cold water bass fishing. Next pic is of my Bronson-Coxe 95C, a sweet little direct-drive casting reel that works just fine for finesse fishing. Both are nearly no-brainer Go-To reels for me under those somewhat limited circumstances.

And there are things that my old reels can't do, or do as well, so I'll opt for the new technology. Reels have come a long way, for many good reasons along that way. In some cases, an old reel can be akin to... going 'flintlock'. The maintenance required to make, and keep, an old direct-drive casting reel up to snuff for some serious fishing is not for everyone. In fact, it's not for most, judging from the many ill-fated attempts I see on YouTube. And, I have no interest in bringing a knife to a gun fight; Such as bringing, even a high quality, perfectly maintained, DD casting reel into the pads and slop for Frogging, Flipping, or Punching. That kind of fishing requires speed and power, is rough on tackle, and is simply... chaotic enough already. :o Here I've been opting for something more modern: my 1980's ABU UltraMags. 👍

---

Quote from: Gfish on August 03, 2023, 07:20:36 PMIs there any way to keep water out of ball bearings in fishing reels, without a detailed service after each fishing trip? Even the ones with seals, including on the ball bearings?

Agree with Tommy and Mark's last posts. I love Oilite Bushings!

Thanks for the Allen Hawk reference on the Penn BattleIII, Mark. Looks like a "battle"is on and continuing with lower cost, heavy duty spinners that have some good features, if not the best materials. The Fin-Nor LT 100, then the new Daiwa BG's and now the Penn BattleIII. Who will make the next—even better—spinner with that lower price point?

Agreed, went in to my tackle store last month. Still pick up Lethal LT100. But today bling in tackles are sometimes irrestable, I still keen in getting a Slammer IV for shore jigging lol......