Penn 712Z with a stubborn bearing. This thing refuses to budge. I seem to have this issue with Penn Z series and SS series reels mostly. Before I add to my legacy of Uncle Oops stories, I thought that I might reach out to y'all for advice. 72C09536-82DE-4DED-9508-9ECB54927EAE.jpeg
I use a open end wrench and sometimes two screw drivers to lift them up .
Use the wrench 3/8 -7/16 as a fork under the nut and a screw driver or two to pry the wrench up .
56F9FBD4-519B-419F-89EE-526BF63133F6.jpeg I started running a very thin blade screwdriver around the edges
When this happens I cut a short piece of copper pipe to use as a puller.
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You can squish it a little if the diameter is too large.
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Then put a fender washer over the top and use your pinion nut to pull the bearing out.
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I hope this saves you some cussing. It has never failed me.
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A few different methods —- all will work quickly.
I just set up some blocks for support —-
Using a wrench supported —-
And a punch —-
And a hammer —-
It will come out quickly with no damage to any parts —- 100% effective.
Sometimes...a larger hammer works also...
Best, Fred
So Fred...you're using the wrench like a fork and striking the wrench with the punch? I'll have to try this next time. It looks much quicker than my method.
I try it like Fred first but I just hit the wrench with the hammer instead of using a punch. If it doesn't pop loose in a couple of hits I make a puller like Mike does.
I tried the hammer technique and this is the result. It didn't budge.
First, the good news: You haven't ruined your reel.
Now the bad news: You need parts.
If you're lucky, you will only need a new nut (sorry, I don't know the size).
Hopefully you haven't damaged the pinion. It's stainless and hopefully much harder than the nut.
The real challenge will be getting the nut off so you will know which parts you need. The safe way would be to use a dremel cut-off wheel (if it will fit). Split the nut down each side, or at least one side and pry it open with a good screwdriver. An alternative might be to hold your pinion by the flats so it won't turn and then turn the nut off with a small wrench. You will want some lube on the threads. To be honest, I would split the nut just to be safe (you still need to get that pinion and bearing out).
Once the nut has been removed, and hopefully your pinion threads are still usable, you should marinate your bearing with a good penetrating oil for a while before trying again. Set your frame somewhere with the pinion pointing up so gravity will help the penetrating oil get into the bearing pocket. Let this soak while procuring a new pinion nut. Sometimes it's corrosion and sometimes it's just the old grease turns to glue. Time and a good solvent based penetrating oil are your friends.
When you get the nut; use the puller method. Heating the frame will expand it and may break the bond to the bearings. You can heat with a heat-gun, boiling water, oven, or even a hot vehicle interior. Just keep your temp low enough to not damage your paint.
Good luck, please let us know how you're doing with it.
-Mike
Glad to send you a rotor nut, pinion, bearing if needed —- N/C.
Best, Fred
Did you put any penetrating oil or vinegar in the seam to loosen it up before you whacked it? Hopefully you didn't strip the threads. :o
I would leave the nut alone and heat the housing with a hair dryer or heat gun , then try again with the wrench under the nut .
Thank You for the suggestions.
It was propped up vertically to create a well on top of the bearing and soaked with penetrating oil
for 6 days before I attempted to remove it.
I just don't think it ever got past the hardened grease.
If you can set it up with penetrating oil outside the house and hit it with heat and let it smoke a little , it should let go .
I'm going to soak it with penetrating oil from the back side for a few days and try again after applying heat.
How high should I set my heat gun?
I typically use it for paint removal when working on my old house.
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What are you using for a penetrating oil ?
High setting for 2 minutes ,get the oil smokem Hot
You get it too hot you'll bubble the paint. Be careful! If penetrating oil won't do the job try a little acetone or lacquer thinner in the joint between the bearing and housing from the top side. Your main objective should be to get the bearing out of the body. Getting the bearing off the pinion after that is done is fairly simple.
So I ended up with one of these today in a bin of free 'junk' reels. One man's trash...
I'm using PB Blaster Joe.
What would you recommend?
Tommy
The bearing and pinion are already separated.
PB blaster and liquid wrench are my go too`s, I was worried that you were going to say wd40
So my 712z main gear will not budge. I don't see anything on the schematic that would lock it in place
Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on July 25, 2022, 11:50:23 PMSo my 712z main gear will not budge. I don't see anything on the schematic that would lock it in place
When you say Won't Budge .
Do you mean it won't turn or you can not Remove it from the Housing ?
Quote from: Wompus Cat on July 26, 2022, 12:15:39 AMQuote from: JasonGotaProblem on July 25, 2022, 11:50:23 PMSo my 712z main gear will not budge. I don't see anything on the schematic that would lock it in place
When you say Won't Budge .
Do you mean it won't turn or you can not Remove it from the Housing ?
Can't remove and can barely turn. The handle side brass washer doesn't budge either.
Did you unscrew the handle ?
Well use that little oil port and squirt some liquid wrench in there and work it around and back and forth. Are the main gear and pinion binding? Also, make sure the A/R dawg is disengaged, not just the lever. Once you get the two gears unbound and have a little slack you can tap the threaded end of the main gear using a hammer with a hardwood block in between. Don't hit it hard though, tap it just light enough that it will move sideways on the pinion worm gear. It should slide sideways while turning the pinion.
Thank you joe for the vote of confidence.
I managed to get it off, it was badly salt-locked. I ended up putting it in the vise. If the reel didn't already have a broken foot (another story) I wouldn't be so bold. But hey it worked.
That's an oil port? Brilliant. This is my first time with a proper egg beater. Such simplicity eluded me.
Now that you have the Gear out of the housing and if you want to reuse it on another Housing or Repair the one you have , look closely at the slot on the shaft if it has one where the oil hole lines up with as they get Burred a bit and will cause the problem you had .You can use a Jewelers File or Emory Board to dress those edges up then use some FINE sandpaper on the shaft to polish it a bit .
That slot was caked with salt, and the oil hole didn't look like an oil hole because it appears completely filled in. Like there's a piece of metal there. Whyyyyy
Below is a pic of the busted foot. I will not be buying a new housing for this reel. I've never been a huge fan of recessed reel spools (I recognize the nostalgia factor for many of you but im too young to share it), so I wont be investing many resources in a reel I won't use a lot. I'll do drags if stock is not CF, and the factory bearing is still good so no change needed there. Given the quality nature of the internal metals, it'll likely be used for wading because dropping it in salt wouldn't necessarily end the day, as long as i clean it when i get home.
The decision is to cut it off and leave it short, or just file it smooth and leave it diagonal. Suspect a reel seat will need to be present to properly answer that question. I suspect if I cut it off it'll still fit into a fuji seat just fine, but maybe not a size 16 seat which is what I have the most of currently.
Good thoughts...
Best, Fred
Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on July 26, 2022, 02:23:45 PMThat slot was caked with salt, and the oil hole didn't look like an oil hole because it appears completely filled in. Like there's a piece of metal there. Whyyyyy
Below is a pic of the busted foot. I will not be buying a new housing for this reel. I've never been a huge fan of recessed reel spools (I recognize the nostalgia factor for many of you but im too young to share it), so I wont be investing many resources in a reel I won't use a lot. I'll do drags if stock is not CF, and the factory bearing is still good so no change needed there. Given the quality nature of the internal metals, it'll likely be used for wading because dropping it in salt wouldn't necessarily end the day, as long as i clean it when i get home.
The decision is to cut it off and leave it short, or just file it smooth and leave it diagonal. Suspect a reel seat will need to be present to properly answer that question. I suspect if I cut it off it'll still fit into a fuji seat just fine, but maybe not a size 16 seat which is what I have the most of currently.
I would not cut it off as you got enough there to hold pretty good . Might do a little filing on the Rough edge but the Fish Don't CARE .............
I would just mount the reel the way it is for now ,time will produce another casting or a fix ......
I think I've been hijacked. 😎
My bearing is still soaking in PB Blaster. Film at 11:00.
Oh man I'm sorry I thought you were sorted out already. My bad.
Quote from: sandbar on July 27, 2022, 01:54:58 AMI think I've been hijacked. 😎
My bearing is still soaking in PB Blaster. Film at 11:00.
Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on July 27, 2022, 02:20:01 AMOh man I'm sorry I thought you were sorted out already. My bad.
You guys are killin' me! LMAO I love this place!
Quote from: Shellbelly on July 27, 2022, 02:59:07 AMQuote from: sandbar on July 27, 2022, 01:54:58 AMI think I've been hijacked. 😎
My bearing is still soaking in PB Blaster. Film at 11:00.
Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on July 27, 2022, 02:20:01 AMOh man I'm sorry I thought you were sorted out already. My bad.
You guys are killin' me! LMAO I love this place!
Naaaaaaaaaaaa Just shooting the breeze , waiting on your bearing soaking and keeping your thread alive !
My bearings are good for now. I'm just hangin' out in the cheap seats watching and learning from the best. Sometimes it's funny, but always helpful.
Just tried again.
It's not moving yet.
Maybe the ball peen is too gentle.
Framing hammer or baby sledge? 😶
Sprayed again and being patient.
Making popcorn.
How much heat have you tried? I bet you could get it good and hot in the cab of your trunk and wouldn't risk bubbling the paint.
-Mike
I have not tried heat yet. I'm a bit hesitant to try that method due to possible paint damage.
I'll get more aggressive this weekend.
She's out!
I used my Wagner paint removal heat gun at 450° and never got smoke but held it until it got too hot to hold. A couple of blows and success.
I guess the next move is to cut off the nut.
Looking at the recess where the bearing sat, I would appreciate wisdom on how to clean it up.
I plan to remove one side of the bearing shield and service it.
I'd sooner send you a new bearing myself than see you put all that effort in, just to run the reel with an old bearing. It warrants replacement.
I promise to do what is best for the old gal. It can't hurt to remove the shield and investigate. I appreciate your concern and expertise.
Quote from: sandbar on August 01, 2022, 12:33:44 AMI promise to do what is best for the old gal. It can't hurt to remove the shield and investigate. I appreciate your concern and expertise.
I am with Jason on this .Put a NEW Bearing in it.
You wasted enough time getting the Damn thing apart...lol
Used a Dremel to cut the nut.
It's not wasted time if you are learning. I used an ice pick to remove one side of the shield.
I learned to look for a retaining clip before I try that approach in the future.
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I will drop these off at the Post Office tomorrow morning, Steve —-
N/C.
Just clean out the bearing cup in the frame with a small wire wheel on a Dremel.
Then burnish the rearward brass sleeve that the worm pinion is supported by with a 1/8" drill bit covered in "0000" steel wool.
Grease the bearing inside and outside so that it will be both protected and will remove 10 years from now when it is serviced again.
Should be good to go after that.
These are very tough and high quality reels.
Best, Fred
Oooohhhh A cliff hanger , So how was the bearing and did the threads on the shaft hold up ?
Cliffhanger?
Here's some photos.
I can't test the threads on the pinion for lack of a nut.
The bearing spins okay.
Both will be going into the lacquer thinner bath tonight.
F7F7ABE5-0E2C-46DF-A97F-E724609DFA2E.jpeg3FF1F834-BBDA-4B95-B327-380AE739355C.jpeg384609B8-4CD8-44E1-BF74-306B6D9D1838.jpegD351934E-4202-4EA6-8989-F7C76A376AF9.jpeg
Thank You so much Fred.
Your generosity is contagious.
OK, I will send them out, Steve —-
Best, Fred
Wire brushed.
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Man , My dog looked at that picture and said
RUFF!
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I see why you have had so many probs gettin it apart .
Looks like you have it going your way now and can use it another 40 years............... :fish
Looking good. These reels are great candidates to be stripped down and polished. After doing the varied surface of an 8500SS this is probably a walk in the park. Citristrip works like a charm on whatever paint penn was using to remove all the black with minimal elbow grease.
The parts are in the mail, Steve —-
Should arrive today or tomorrow.
Best, Fred
Quote from: Wompus Cat on August 05, 2022, 01:25:12 PMMan , My dog looked at that picture and said
RUFF!
(https://alantani.com/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=114686)
I see why you have had so many probs gettin it apart .
Looks like you have it going your way now and can use it another 40 years............... :fish
>:D >:D >:D >:D Ruff :o How did he melt the casting and saved the paint ?
Just kidding , the shaft looks good thread wise , the nut is soft and was the fuse ...
Hello Fred
I received the parts this afternoon. Thank You so much for your continued generosity. I very much appreciate you and how you bless so many of us.
I want to repaint the large flange. What paint do recommend and what surface prep is needed if any?
Thank You 7E5659D3-C414-45A0-81DE-E0D2A8A95F7A.jpeg
Now that you're sorted out I can hijack the thread again.
So is the line roller fixed on these, or is mine just frozen?
Quote from: sandbar on August 07, 2022, 12:12:32 AMHello Fred
I want to repaint the large flange. What paint do recommend and what surface prep is needed if any?
You can use an automotive gloss enamel spray can from the auto parts store.
Just make sure the parts to be painted are cleaned of any grease or crud. Then rough up the surface a bit —- with a fine emory paper in the 320 grit range for adhesion and also to get off any flaky paint or rough edges.
Spray a LIGHT initial coat —- let it dry overnight if you are not using an oven.
Do a light sanding again —- then spray the last coat and let it dry overnight.
Blow any dust off in between painting.
Rough it up and give it the last coat.
Won't be perfect —- but it will turn out much better than you might realize.
I do powder-coating on these —- but that requires a lot of additional equipment. Powder Gun, exhaust fan coating cabinet, compressor, blast cabinet, oven, and more. Plus a full dedicated set-up and working area.
Best, Fred
Thank You for the advice Fred. Are you contemplating powder coating some of the DQ 110-550 with color now that you have all the new paint equipment?
I have a reel or two that I would like to send you for new colors.
It will be awhile yet, Steve —-
So far, it is just a learning curve on some extra reels lying around.
Got a backlog of reels to restore, service, and repair for folks. That comes first.
Then painting the house, shops, and outbuildings in the next month.
Roof repair after the tree damage from wind.
Deck refinishing.
Pouring a 35' X 20' pad with a metal structure for the boat, camper, travel trailer, utility trailer, and other stuff.
Then Winter will roll around and we will do a little traveling after the Fire Season.
Then I'll have some time to get more proficient on the Powder Coating work. Have a lot of cool colors.
In between there will be some short trips with the truck/camper & boat or the kayak trailer.
Best, Fred