I made an unexpected purchase last week and it arrived on Monday, an Okuma Cavalla 5Nii in a custom color, blue. A well known tackle shop in Huntington Beach, Ca made a special purchase and offered these up for sale at a nice price. I wasn't really looking for a small 2-speed lever drag, but at this price, I could not refuse.
I remembered Alan talking about a small 2-speed for tuna, something to handle the 30lb class. I think this reel would also serve as a slow pitch jigging reel, but I don't have any experience with SPJ yet, so mine will function as a 30lb class reel for now. I spooled mine up with 50lb j-braid braid and just barely got 300 yards loaded onto the spool. Other braids will have differing capacities. I wanted to use 40lb, I don't have any right now, so I used 50. (Please ignore the glaring bright color of the braid, I got a good deal on 2800+ yds of it for less than 4 cents a yard.)
This is only my third 2-speed, and haven't caught any fish on a 2-speed yet, so this is only an initial impressions kind of post. After spooling, I broke out the scale and took some measurements. I dialed up the pre-set until I got 14lbs at strike, which gave me 22 at sunset. I was slightly disappointed with the drag curve since it's short and fast. This reel has detents on the lever, with 20 stops between free and strike and another 9 stops from strike to full. At the 14/22lb settings, there are 7 unused clicks to get to any form of drag when going from free towards strike. The next 4 clicks the drag goes from about 1lb to about 3lbs, then it jumps to 9ish lbs with a noticeable increase in force to move the lever. There is a second similar jump when moving the lever past the strike detent, it jumps from 14lbs to 19lbs at the first click past strike. So this reel may be a candidate for a cam re-profile.
The handle arm is long, set up for SPJ, but I don't mind it. I don't care for the football style grips, but since it's riveted in place, I will have to drill it out to replace it with Alan's 3/0 handle.
I looked up the Metaloid schematic and compared it with the Custom Blue paperwork that I got in the box. Looks the same to me in general design. The frame, spool and gears have different parts numbers, but the drag washer and gear shaft are the same, as well as some other small parts. I am including a photo of the schematic ( for you J :d )
I will take it casting later and report back, it's giving me 15-18 seconds of free spool right now and when I crack it open this weekend I'll see what Okuma is doing inside with lubrication and corrosion protection.
Yep, I fell for one also, arrived about 10 minutes ago. Not sure if I'm gonna spool with 40 or 50 J-Braid multi. Might get some small tuna with it off Montauk but will mostly be used for chunking stripers I think. Looked like a good deal, we'll see.
Hell ya! That's a prefect 30# reel!
Now send it to Alan to re-work the drag scale and it'll be perfect!
What other 2 speeds do you have?
PJ, I have a Penn 16VSX and an Andros 12N. I need something to cover 50-60 and then I am ready for Tuna. Well, I still have two rods to get, but that's gonna change too cause I bought a used rod wrapper over the weekend, so now I have another hobby! I'll post about the rod wrapper later...
You're well on your way to being covered for tuna on all bases! Check out the Mak 15T for 50-60# work
I saw those! Really wanted one but have several dozen LD's sitting idle as it is...
I mounted it up on a 30lb rod and took it casting at my local pond. It casted well for me, just like a similar sized star drag. The current free spool time of 15-18 seconds actually translated into an easy cast for me. If I get better free spool, I will have to be more controlled with my casting and thumb control to prevent overruns.
Overall I really like it. Now the question is, "do I take it to Cedros in a week?"
Quote from: rogan on August 19, 2022, 12:24:57 AMOverall I really like it. Now the question is, "do I take it to Cedros in a week?"
Why wouldn't you!!!!!
I bought one as well. Disappointed in how steep the drag curve is. Granted, I'm fishing for salmon, so my strike drag setting is pretty low. Nonetheless, drag curve is almost nonexistant. With strike set at my usual downrigger-trolling spot (maybe 5lbs), a couple clicks back is essentially freespool. Would love the reel if the drag curve could be flattened enough to use in more than an all-or-none capacity!
Quote from: patrisage on August 27, 2022, 10:14:56 PMI bought one as well. Disappointed in how steep the drag curve is. Granted, I'm fishing for salmon, so my strike drag setting is pretty low. Nonetheless, drag curve is almost nonexistant. With strike set at my usual downrigger-trolling spot (maybe 5lbs), a couple clicks back is essentially freespool. Would love the reel if the drag curve could be flattened enough to use in more than an all-or-none capacity!
Send it to Alan and have him re-work the drag profile! He's headed to Cedros today or tomorrow but the reel will be buttery smooth after he works his magic...
Yeah the drag curve on these little Okumas is more like Off-On-More. They basically work like a star drag except you have a second position for more beans.
I came here looking for a DIY maybe to fix this "on/Off". I got mine in the mail a few weeks ago and was so disappointed I stopped by there on my way down to Oceanside (also to pick up a couple of their Okuma deckhand rods on special too).
I asked if there was something wrong with mine and they said all lever drags are like that. Not my internationals, not my accurates, and not even a little avet that I have, but I chocked it up to being a "miniature" reel and left with it, figuring I can use the first 7 detents of drag as a "cast control"!
When you open it up Rogan, let me know if anything needs attending to and good to know Alan can work some magic on it down the road.
Thanks, Keith
The Makairas run like this as well with the braid cam. If you put the "Tournament"/mono cam in they get a much more progressive drag curve. To "fix" it I think you would have to mess around with a combination of the belleville washers and the ramp of the cam.
EDIT: I think you would probably end up with reduced maximum drag too, but at the same time these little reels make far more drag than is practical on any rod they will actually balance with.
Where are the bellevilles in the schematic? I dont see any being listed also.
I looked at mine yesterday. The cam is straight and even with a very gentle rise of around 0.5 mm. Nothing strange at all.
Total increase in drag from the first click above freespool being set at one pound, was around 11 lbs.
The belleville spring washers were four 6 x 11 x 0.7 mm, stacked ()()
I would suggest simply ordering four 6 x 12 x 0.5 mm bellevilles and see how that feels.
.
Quote from: sabaman1 on September 03, 2022, 05:10:24 AMWhere are the bellevilles in the schematic? I dont see any being listed also.
Left side of the spool shaft, between the bearing and the cross-pin... if they're anything like the Metaloid they will be held in place under slight compression by a C clip on the spool shaft, which is a gigantic pain in the rear to get back into place if you want to remove the bearing
rich, i have those bellevilles. i will send them out. i got them to help the drag profile of the andros and it really didn't help that much. i'll send six. try "((()))", "(())))", and "()))))" and see if any of these configurations make a difference.
An update, I took it to Cedros and it performed very well! It replaced a 3/0 sized reel that had a broken bridge screw the night before I left. I paired it up with a 7 foot 40lb rod and it made a great combo, catching a few yellowtail from 15lbs to 25lbs (and smaller sized bonito). I used it for slow trolling mackerel and fast trolling rapalas. No casting since I had a dedicated surface iron star drag on an 8 foot rod. I did use the low speed on one of the yellowtail at the end of the fight, it wasn't really needed, but this trip was the first time I've used any two speed reels, so I wanted to try it out.
The on/off style drag caused me some problems. When I moved the lever forward on a take, if the fish continued to take line without registering any increase in drag, I would bump the drag up a little more. The adjustments are so coarse, meaning that a couple of clicks would jump the drag by a couple of pounds, I would instantly stop the fish and have my rod tip snap down with the increased drag pressure. I broke off at least two fish because of this rapid increase in drag.
Other than this problem, the reel was fantastic. Small, light, strong and easy to use. I decided to check the drag when I got home to see if there was any form of "burn in". I set the drag to "strike" and got 10lbs. Hey, wait a sec... I set the strike to 14lbs before I left on the trip, what's going on here... I checked full and got 18.5 lbs. It was set to 21 before the trip. I checked the number of clicks from free spool to where I get actual drag, 14. And then I realized what had happened. My panga captain had changed the pre set and adjusted the drag settings when I wasn't around. Our fishing gear is delivered to the captains and loaded onto the boat while we are finishing breakfast at the lodge. After seeing me break off two fish, he must have adjusted the drag setting. This is the exact thing that happened to me last year. I had set all of my drags last year with a scale prior to the trip. When I hooked my first fish last year, it took off as if I had no drag, because I didn't have any drag. The captain had re-set all of my drags to less than 8lbs. I am a little irritated. I got kelped and rocked twice because the drags were set so low the fish was able to get to structure while I was fiddling with the low drag settings.
When I added 6 clicks to the preset dial, I got the matching numbers I had set prior to the trip. So that meant it was time to open the reel and see what it looked like on the inside. Easy disassembly, separating the handle plate, frame and spool takes 6 screws and they are all the same torx 10 driver bit. The frame was greased, I think. It was so thin that it's hard to tell. I had some very light salt crystals inside after 4 days of use, but it wiped right off. The spool sides did not appear to be greased. The spindle slips out of the spool and as previously mentioned, the bellevilles are are held in place with a c-clip on the clicker side of the spool. The bearings are sealed and it appears they are oiled due to the oil residue and I decided to leave them as is for now since I am happy with the current free spool time of 22 seconds.
Since I was greasing the frame, I decided to remove the foot and do a proper job. That was my mistake... I snapped off the first screw head. And then I remembered a post (and video) of Alan torching the reel foot screws on an Andros. Good old locktite strikes again. Why take the time to install removable fasteners and then attach them permanently???? As soon as I broke the screw, I stopped working on the reel, so no further disassemble or pre-service was done. I haven't decided what I'm going to do about the reel foot screw yet.
Doc, Thanks for the info and insight about the cam. Upon visual inspection of mine, I agree that it appears to be a gradual and even slope, but I don't have the tooling to do any actual measurements the way you do. I see that Alan is sending me some bellevilles (thank you Alan!) so I will try them out and see if I can get a different drag profile without altering the cam.
I really like this reel and can see it being used for many applications. I had one larger model yellowtail give me some serious drag runs before being boated, causing me to move the lever past strike a couple of clicks to get enough drag to stop him, so I know the reel is up to the stated drag numbers. I feel comfortable fishing it up to 20 pounds, and that's a lot of great fishing potential in a small reel.
One last mention, I put one of Alan's 3/0 handles on it before the trip and it made the reel perfect!
Quote from: alantani on September 05, 2022, 02:07:56 AMrich, i have those bellevilles. i will send them out. i got them to help the drag profile of the andros and it really didn't help that much. i'll send six. try "((()))", "(())))", and "()))))" and see if any of these configurations make a difference.
Engineering wise, the more opposing cups- i.e, "()()()" the less increase in clamping load for the same amount of compression distance, i.e., less increase in load per degree of cam rotation. Bellevilles with the cups nested in the same direction "((((" have the opposite effect. I would venture to guess that as many non-nested cups as possible plus a flat or two if needed for filling space would give you the most gradual ramp - something like this: ")()()|".
If I am not misremembering :) , the order doesn't matter as much.
Stronger or weaker bellevilles can also alter the range - this is generally controlled by washer thickness. McMaster usually has a a few different strengths for the same belleville ID/OD.
On the other hand, Alan has probably done this around a couple hundred times on lever drags, and I have done this about 5 times on fly reels :)
-J
crud....
to remove the reel seat screws, the frame has to be completely stripped down. anything that can be removed, must be removed. they you heat the screws with a propane torch to melt the loctite. otherwise the soft stainless steel metric screws will shear off at the head. it's a nightmare.
From the belleville horse's mouth - watch the video if you don't like looking at equations:
https://www.belleflex.com/resources/belleville-disc-spring-washer-tech-tips/what-is-stacking/ (https://www.belleflex.com/resources/belleville-disc-spring-washer-tech-tips/what-is-stacking/)
-J
Rogan,
Thanks for the update and pictures and great job breaking it in! Did you run 40lb top shot? I'm still debating if I want to make it a 30lb or 40lb reel on a PCH rod.
I'm shocked captain and crew would adjust your drags without you being around. Suggestions are always welcome and encouraged, but when you have it set up, the drag numbers were what you expected to see.
I'm glad you opened it up and I'm sorry about reel foot screw, i would have done the exact same thing, and now I know.
Let us know how the bellevilles affect the drag curve.
Keith
"...try "((()))", "(())))", and "()))))" and see if any of these configurations make a difference"
This will achieve precisely the opposite of what the OP wants.
Four bellevilles. Stacked the same way it was to begin with. ( ) ( ).
Softer bellevilles, softer drag. Softer belleville stack, softer drag curve.
Not ((-)X)[ or {>//(().
Just ( ) ( ).
Now, understandably, there will be a slight difference in the total stack height, probably around 0.8 mm. This can be either A: ignored if there is room for it in the reel, or B: compensated for with a flat washer of approximately that thickness placed on either side of said belleville stock, or C: perhaps, if space allows, additional belleville springs, most preferably in accordance with the rest of the bellevilles, thusly ( ) ( ) ( ) if they all fit, or ) ( ) ( ) when viewed from behind. Said stack should NOT end with a belleville facing ( towards the ball bearing, since this will press the edges of the belleville into the shield of the ball bearing, and will not allow for deflection of the belleville.
Maybe, maybe a compromise could be reached to achieve the desired total stack height by placing the final belleville in the arrangement thusly ( ( ) ( ) since we have the first three bellevilles allowing a fairly ample range of movement when compared to the relatively slight rise of the reel's cam, but there may be a slight rise in drag pressure toward the end of the drag lever's arc.
.
"... I'm shocked captain and crew would adjust your drags without you being around. Suggestions are always welcome and encouraged, but when you have it set up, the drag numbers were what you expected to see."
I'm not. I was out tuna fishing last week, and when checking out the so-it-would-seem dialed in and properly adjusted reels, it became readily apparent that some folks have very different ideas of how reels work at all.
Gentlemen, Thank you for the comments and the advice. I disassembled the reel again, stripped out the clicker parts and took it into the garage where I could apply some heat. I have a propane torch, but decided I would try a heat gun first. The heat gun is a little wongo and was rewired after the switching went bad, so it only has one setting, high heat with low air flow. Well, that was the perfect setting for this application. 90 seconds of heat and the three remaining screws came out as if they had no tension at all. I think the assembler is not using any mechanical force when installing these screws and is relying on the chemical bond to keep the screws in place. It took no force on the driver handler to remove the screws. And as you can see from the photos, the screws are completely covered in loctite.
I spent about 45 minutes trying to remove the broken screw and finally gave up before I caused any serious damage. I have a drill press and machinist vise, and after centerpunching the end of the screw, I was still not able to drill a hole in it for an extractor. I also don't have the correct sized extractor, but thought I might be able to use what I have. The screw is broken off flush and such a small size that the correct procedure would be to use a mill and an end cutter to keep proper alignment and not cause any damage to the frame. So for now, the broken screw will remain...
Keith, I ran a 3 foot 50lb top shot for the first two days, and suffered two break offs. After the second one, the captain decided to replace it with a 3 foot section of 60lb. I can't remember if I had any other breakoffs on that reel after the 60lb was put in place. I did break off two fish with 60lb on my Andros 12n on the last day, but break offs kinda summed up my trip this year. I used the SD jam knot for my terminal connection knot and had some problems with it in all the mono I used, so I need to review my trying methods and conduct some testing to see what is going on. I am very happy that my braid to mono connections all held strong with no issues, thank you Alan for the video in tying the modified Tony Pena knot, it worked very well for me and I will continue using it.
May i suggest for the broken screw ,after you heat it up try with a pencil with a eraser and back it out .
Does the hole go through that the screw can be run through the case ? That you have two ways out !
Some times a screw driver will walk them out ,
Heat gun was a good call. Red Loctite softens at 500F, so no need to go far beyond that and risk frying the dye in the anodize, or anealing the aluminum with a torch. But the stuff only stays soft when hot, so keeping the broken screw hot long enough to extract is a challenge- a little butane pen torches might be nice.
Seems like three screws is going to hold a foot onto a narrow little reel like that pretty well anyways, no?
-J
you can cut a slot in the top of the broken stud, then torch it and it should back out under the same tension as the other three. :-\
The drag deal sound like the heated discussion we had the last night. Soft drag is just how you fish down there (yep, everyone disagrees with me except the professionals who fish there every day.)
With as much drag at strike as is usually set, there is to much drag at the first click for trolling live bait. This is one reason I still like star drags, infinite adjustability. A big yellowtail will play with a bait for a bit, and if they feel unnatural resistance it is all over. The only way to do it with a lever is to back it off until there is no resistance or startup on the first click, which means you will probably need to use your thumb from time to time. A star doesn't suffer from the center wheel sindrome, and so nothing to full is always available.
As Martin says "it's fish!"
The Man
Quote from: Ron Jones on September 07, 2022, 02:15:58 AMThe drag deal sound like the heated discussion we had the last night. Soft drag is just how you fish down there (yep, everyone disagrees with me except the professionals who fish there every day.)
With as much drag at strike as is usually set, there is to much drag at the first click for trolling live bait. This is one reason I still like star drags, infinite adjustability. A big yellowtail will play with a bait for a bit, and if they feel unnatural resistance it is all over. The only way to do it with a lever is to back it off until there is no resistance or startup on the first click, which means you will probably need to use your thumb from time to time. A star doesn't suffer from the center wheel sindrome, and so nothing to full is always available.
As Martin says "it's fish!"
The Man
You could just set the adjustment knob so that the first click has the tension that you want and then go a bit before or past strike for fighting the fish, which is no harder than spinning a star in the heat of battle, and usually a bit easier to find the setting that you are looking for. No law that says you have to stop exactly at strike.
Plenty of info in this thread on belleville tuning if you want to fine tune the reel further.
Star drags often need to be tuned the same way for dragging live mackerel in the method you describe. I think that you want something about 180 degrees or a bit less. If you have to spin the star a few revolutions, things can get a bit more error prone.
For me, I took a single rod and planned to cast or drop irons on Cedros, Trolling is more of a last resort rather than a plan for the day. But we all get to make our own choices.
-The Dude
I believe what you described in the beginning is exactly what I am describing and what the Panga captains did. It is a pain (on some reels) to push the button to exceed whatever position that reels stop is at while trying to catch a fish, but you absolutely can do it.
I am familiar with the idea of 180 degrees, I prefer a little more fidelity. In my experience inadequate drag is more desirable than excessive drag... Ford or Chevy.
The Man
If the screws are mostly reliant on the chemical bond rather than mechanical tightness then it shouldn't be too hard to "chase" the screw out with a very small punch or by being a bit brutal on a small flat-headed screwdriver, at least sufficiently to get a grip on the threads with something else.
Quote from: boon on September 07, 2022, 03:59:21 AMIf the screws are mostly reliant on the chemical bond rather than mechanical tightness then it shouldn't be too hard to "chase" the screw out with a very small punch or by being a bit brutal on a small flat-headed screwdriver, at least sufficiently to get a grip on the threads with something else.
Loctite provides a mechanical bond - at room temp after initial curing, the red stuff is hard and jams up the threads. At 500F it goes back to a liquid, and then back to solid as it cools. Probably will respond to a solvent for cleaning purposes once you get it apart, but no idea which solvent is used. Henkel has good documentation as long as you don't use the USA site :(, so there is probably some info on cleaning threads.
-J
Reel tinkering had to be put on hold for a few days while I went back to work (yuck), but now I have had a chance to do some more work with the 5Nii.
Alan, thank you for the bellevilles, I received them in the mail on Friday. So armed with new parts, I tore down the reel and tried some differing combinations. { denotes original heavy bellevilles while ( denotes new lighter version
Configuration Low Strike Full
{}{} 4 14 20
(()() 3 10 12
(){} 6 11 17
{)){) 6 12 17
(()(} 4 11.5 15
I tried some mixed up combos just to make sure I understood the math involved. J, thank you for the link to the Belleville site, it was most helpful to understand how they apply force, and the series/parallel analogy to electronic circuits was most helpful. So the end result was, the stacking order of the bellevilles made no real difference. Force is force, so changing the order of the force in this application does not matter. When I used two heavy and two light bellevilles, I got consistent results as long as the cups remained oriented the same way. If I had two heavy bellevilles in the stack, the max drag I could get was 17lb at full. That's the max force that two heavys can apply to the spool, changing the preset knob did not affect the max drag and did not offer much increase in useable drag range. Using two light bellevilles in the stack, when combined with a heavy, resulted in a low drag setting at 6 pounds or higher. I could not get a drag setting less than 6 pounds if I mixed the two types. Using all light bellevilles resulted in a max drag at full of 12 pounds.
So the end result for me was: the original 4 stack of heavy bellevilles gave me the most useable drag, the best range and the most adjustability. If I dialed the preset down 6 clicks, I could get 2lb min drag, 8lb at strike and 15 at full. And inbetween these preset dial adjustments, I could predict exactly what the drag was going to be since the cam is ground linear, that range of drag (13 pounds from 2 to 15) stays pretty consistent as you make adjustments to the preset dial. Six clicks up and I am at 4/14/20, a very predicable and useful range of drag. So I guess Shakespeare was right, "Much Ado About Nothing".
But wait, there is more...
Something else happened along the way. When I finished my testing and decided to return to the original configuration, I tested the drag settings to make sure I had dialed in the correct preset. Moved the lever to strike and got 13.5 lbs, good, so I moved the lever to full, there was a loud pop and the spool went into freespool while the lever was at full. Oh NO! I knew exactly what had happened. Since this reel is a pull system, as you increase the lever, you are pulling the spool to the handle side sideplate. Which means you are pulling the spool shaft and compressing the bellevilles which are on the clicker side of the spool. So what do the bellevilles come into contact with? Yup, that's right, they press against the c-clip on the spool shaft. If the c-clip breaks or slips out of the spool shaft groove, the bellevilles have nothing to press against, so you have no drag.
Well, this is my fault and the place where anyone in the future needs to pay attention. You cannot exceed the stack height of the bellevilles between the bearing and the groove in the spool shaft. If you try to compress the bellevilles to get the c-clip to fit, you will damage two things, the c-clip itself, and the groove in the spool shaft. The c-clip must fit into place without force. So I damaged both the c-clip and the spool shaft when trying out the different belleville combinations since any of the combos with more than 4 bellevilles was too tall and I had to apply force to get the c-clip to fit. I have ordered new parts for both. The added benefit to this tinkering is I now fully understand the reel, it's design, and how I was asking too much of the reel. I would like to get 13 to 14 pounds of drag at strike, just to make it easy on me when moving the lever during a fight so I don't have to worry about the strike stop detent. But I really shouldn't be using that much drag on a reel this small. Yeah, it's well built and performs very well and can go to some high drag numbers, but it's not built to live there. Now that I understand that the c-clip is what is holding all that drag in place, it makes my perspective of how to use the reel much more realistic. When I get it fixed, it will be 12lb at strike and 17 at full. If I can't handle the fish at those settings, I used the wrong tool for the job. Maybe I shouldn't be using this reel for yellowtail and expecting to lever up 20lb of drag to stop a 25lb (or larger) fish. I am very glad I broke it when testing and not on a fish!!!
After reading this, I like those silly detents even less, and like star drags even more. It sucks that you broke the reel, but it seems like you learned a lot.
Would you refer to not have the detent at all, and then you could have your full drag range unencumbered? I don't believe it would be difficult to remove, but I'm not sure if the lever would hang up in the hole.
The Man
Ron, I actually like the detents as I find it easier to move the lever by a single click when adjusting the drag. What surprises me is the amount of drag increase that sometimes accompanies a single click. When moving from free spool to drag settings, I may have 6 to 10 clicks where the reel remains in free spool, then in one extra click I get 2lb of drag and one more click gives me 6lbs of drag, and then each of the next clicks adds 1/2 pound evenly. It's an interesting engineering/math problem for sure. I still like the reel and will continue to fish it, especially since I now have first hand experience on to use it to it's best potential.
As far as breaking it, the replacement parts were $27 shipped, a small price to pay for the excellent knowledge I gained. Well, except for the broken reel seat screw, I'm still annoyed about that >:( . And I don't have a fix for that yet.
I can commiserate with broken reel seat screws. My Okuma Catalina went flying across Alan's garage when the real seat bolts sheared in the line winder.
The Man
Great stuff! Thanks so much for posting your experiences Rogan. I have been learning a bunch.
Some things that I hadn't considered or just figured out:
1. In order for the cam to complete its travel from start to sunset, the available deflection range in the belleville stack has to be greater or equal to the cam rise. This limits how far you can adjust the preset. It also limits what you can do with the belleville stack.
2. Individual bellevilles a have a limited deflection range. And the ratio of deflection to load is not linear. The more a belleville is compressed, the more load it takes to compress it farther. I would guess that the deflection to load curve is straighter starting out, and if so -stacking more bellevilles in a series will give you a more evenly progressive ramp, but the stack still has to have the right load range for the deflection range that matches the cam rise. So even if there is room for lots of bellevilles, this is tricky stuff.
3. It should be theoretically possible to design a cam shape that compensates for the belleville progressive load increase. But that would require designing the cam for a specific belleville setup.
4. This collectively makes a pretty good argument for cam grinding (Alan's approach). Getting there tweaking bellevilles is going to be somewhere between hard and impossible. As long as there is some deflection still available at sunset, you will get the cam progression that you want if leave the bellevilles unmolested and grind in the right cam shape.
5. Not a fan of a design that user a c-clip to secure that big of a load.
6. I am a fan of NOT worrying how linearly progressive the cam ramp is. So I get a bunch of different possible sunset settings without having to take my reel apart. If the strike stop was adjustable, this would be about all I needed from a lever drag.
-J
Looking at the specs and size of the reel it looks to be designed to fish no more than 25lb test mono. Which would give you a setting of maybe 8lbs at strike and 12lbs at full. I think if you want to fish those drag numbers your speaking of, the cavalla 12ll is the reel for you.
Quote from: sabaman1 on September 13, 2022, 07:22:59 AMLooking at the specs and size of the reel it looks to be designed to fish no more than 25lb test mono. Which would give you a setting of maybe 8lbs at strike and 12lbs at full. I think if you want to fish those drag numbers your speaking of, the cavalla 12ll is the reel for you.
The Okuma USA site lists capacity for 40 and 50lb braid, and max drag strike/sunset at 15/24 lbs.
https://okumafishingusa.com/products/cavalla-lever-drag-reels.
The international Okuma site lists same max drag in kilos but doesn't specify braid test, just capacity by line diameter.
Not commenting on what the max practical settings for this reel might be, just what the published specs are.
-J
J, thanks for the comments. I wasn't sure my ramblings were making a lot of sense. I appreciate your summary of the belleville operations, especially in light of how they relate to the cam.
As far as using a c-clip as a stop for the bellevilles to press against, my initial thought was similiar to your own thought, I don't like it. When I ordered the new replacement parts, i came to a realization that changed my thinking. The c-clip acts a built-in, but known, failure point. If the drag pressure gets too severe, the c-clip will pop and the reel goes into freespool. Which means if it fails first, which it should, the gears won't shred, handles won't bend and the frame won't flex out of alignment. And the repair is easy and cheap, $27 for a new spindle/spool shaft assembly which includes a new c-clip. I think I actually like the "safety valve" aspect of this system. I was able to fish the reel at 15 to 18 pounds of drag without failure, I caused the damage to the clip and spool shaft by forcing on the too tall belleville stack, so thats why it failed on me during testing. Without that damage, I think 15 to 18 pounds is totally acceptable for this reel.
Sabaman1, I would like to clarify my use of this reel. I bought it, spooled it up, put Alan's 3/0 hamdle on it, took it to the local park lake and casted it with lures from 1/2 oz to 2.25 oz on a 30 lb rod and decided I really liked it and planned to use it for future trips as a 30lb setup. Well, the night before the cedros trip, I tightened all the screws on my reels as my final preparation before leaving, since the previous year I had two reels with loose screws in the middle of the second day of fishing. When I checked the screws on my backup custom built 501, one of the bridge screws was stripped out. Don't know when or how it happened, but I couldn't fix it overnight. So I had to substitute a new reel, and the 5N was ready to go, so I took it.
It was not the right choice.
To quote MarkT "yellowtail are mean." And he is absolutely right.
But I didn't know that. This trip was my second yellowtail trip and it was very different from the first trip. To put it simply, the yellowtail were nice to me the first year. They were mean to me this year. Last year I caught limits each of the 4 days we went out and I did not lose a single fish, or lure or hook. This year I got broke off on rocks, kelp, etc and lost fish, lures and hooks, at least 6 times cause it happened so often I lost count. What was the difference? I don't know... it's fishing.
But I made different gear choices this year, bringing two lever drags and two star drags. Last year was all star drags. When I got bit this year, 11 or 12 pounds of drag wasn't remotely enough drag. These fish screamed off drag at those settings and by the time I got another 3 or 4 pounds of added drag, it was too late. The fish had pulled off another 15+ yards of line, added to the 20 or so yards of line I already had out, and they were in the structure, kelp or rocks and I was getting broken off. Since we fish in water from 60 to 100 feet deep, 30+ yards of line had them easily in a place where I couldn't get them.
So I had unintentionally brought the wrong reel to the fight. The 5N will be an excellent reel for open water and can easily handle 18lb of drag. But in Cedros, I needed 15 to 18 lbs of drag immediately to stop the fish from gaining any extra line and makimg it to structure. So this was a case of wrong tool for the wrong job. I totally agree with you that a 12 sized reel would have been better, cause my Andros 12nii was my other lever drag reel. Even with 20 yards of 60lb mono leader and my stike set to 16lbs, I still got broken off twice. It was a hell of a lesson to learn!
Quote from: rogan on September 13, 2022, 06:30:23 PMSabaman1, I would like to clarify my use of this reel. I bought it, spooled it up, put Alan's 3/0 hamdle on it, took it to the local park lake and casted it with lures from 1/2 oz to 2.25 oz on a 30 lb rod and decided I really liked it and planned to use it for future trips as a 30lb setup. Well, the night before the cedros trip, I tightened all the screws on my reels as my final preparation before leaving, since the previous year I had two reels with loose screws in the middle of the second day of fishing. When I checked the screws on my backup custom built 501, one of the bridge screws was stripped out. Don't know when or how it happened, but I couldn't fix it overnight. So I had to substitute a new reel, and the 5N was ready to go, so I took it.
It was not the right choice.
To quote MarkT "yellowtail are mean." And he is absolutely right.
But I didn't know that. This trip was my second yellowtail trip and it was very different from the first trip. To put it simply, the yellowtail were nice to me the first year. They were mean to me this year. Last year I caught limits each of the 4 days we went out and I did not lose a single fish, or lure or hook. This year I got broke off on rocks, kelp, etc and lost fish, lures and hooks, at least 6 times cause it happened so often I lost count. What was the difference? I don't know... it's fishing.
But I made different gear choices this year, bringing two lever drags and two star drags. Last year was all star drags. When I got bit this year, 11 or 12 pounds of drag wasn't remotely enough drag. These fish screamed off drag at those settings and by the time I got another 3 or 4 pounds of added drag, it was too late. The fish had pulled off another 15+ yards of line, added to the 20 or so yards of line I already had out, and they were in the structure, kelp or rocks and I was getting broken off. Since we fish in water from 60 to 100 feet deep, 30+ yards of line had them easily in a place where I couldn't get them.
So I had unintentionally brought the wrong reel to the fight. The 5N will be an excellent reel for open water and can easily handle 18lb of drag. But in Cedros, I needed 15 to 18 lbs of drag immediately to stop the fish from gaining any extra line and makimg it to structure. So this was a case of wrong tool for the wrong job. I totally agree with you that a 12 sized reel would have been better, cause my Andros 12nii was my other lever drag reel. Even with 20 yards of 60lb mono leader and my stike set to 16lbs, I still got broken off twice. It was a hell of a lesson to learn!
Now there's a guy who is learning and using that new knowledge to set himself up for success!!!!
Now get your #### down to SD and go on a tuna trip!!!!
Try it on a fly rod some time :) Kinda stoopid actually, but fun.
The way I see it, there is no reason not to start with maximum resistance with yellowtail, especially around structure. You are not using the drag to wear them out on a run like a tuna, you are using it to stop them from taking line and reaching the rocks. And you will need even more drag if they get up a head of steam. As strong as they are, they sort of give up a bit if they can't reach structure, at which point, backing off a bit can be an option.
I also try to get into low gear early on a big fish. It is harder for them to reach the rocks if their nose is pointed up and they have to turn around. All fish have very little power pulling in any direction other than head first. I don't think we take advantage of this as much as we should in all phases of the fight.
-J
I don`t have a dog in this fight . But if i was to experimenter with a drag profile , i would look at spring washers , wave washers and belleville washers and the combinations of both spring and belleville washers . Wave washer would help the low end and the belleville would the high end ..
https://www.spirol.com/assets/files/disc_wp_differences_between_disc_springs_and_belleville_washers_us.pdf
https://www.design-engineering.com/the-difference-between-disc-springs-and-belleville-washers-1004037495/
I have most of my YT rods set for 28lbs initially... gets them moving in the right direction ^-^ But then we're not fishing 30lb sets for them, obviously.
I like the idea of the adjustable stop. If I needed a stop at all, I would like to decide where it is, but I never have any idea how much drag I am using in pounds, I just change it to what I need as I fight the fish.
I disagree with starting at max drag on anything except with iron. My first trip, I lost several yellowtail on the first full day and Martin, who I argue is the best Panga Captain anywhere, kept saying "take it easy, take it easy." Yellowtail hit hard, and if the drag is to strong they tend to go away. I believe they hit so hard that they rip the bait off before the hook is in position to do its job, but have no way of proving that hypothesis. I just know that letting the fish run for a bit results in more reliable hookups, even with swimbaits.
The Man
Quote from: Ron Jones on September 13, 2022, 11:59:46 PMI like the idea of the adjustable stop. If I needed a stop at all, I would like to decide where it is, but I never have any idea how much drag I am using in pounds, I just change it to what I need as I fight the fish.
I disagree with starting at max drag on anything except with iron. My first trip, I lost several yellowtail on the first full day and Martin, who I argue is the best Panga Captain anywhere, kept saying "take it easy, take it easy." Yellowtail hit hard, and if the drag is to strong they tend to go away. I believe they hit so hard that they rip the bait off before the hook is in position to do its job, but have no way of proving that hypothesis. I just know that letting the fish run for a bit results in more reliable hookups, even with swimbaits.
The Man
You don't have to jump from zero to max. You just need to get there soon. If you are fishing circle hooks on the drift/drop, the lever drag is your friend. Once you decide that it is time, just gradually move up the lever until the rod loads up and keep going until you hit high drag. With a star, it is on/off, so you might have to compromise down a bit for the initial drag, and adjust the star on the fly once the rod loads up.
If I am trolling live bait, that means that I am so desperate for a fish that I will have the rod in my hand and the reel in freespool, and use my thumb to manage light tension during the troll and take. If you are sticking it in a rod holder, usually just enough tension to keep the spool from turning, but otherwise the same. A lever is your friend here too.
If you are losing fish because they don't get hooked or not hooked well, especially on the circle hooks, it is usually from trying to set the hook or not letting them run long enough in "freespool". If you are breaking off fish from pulling too hard on 60 lb leader attached to 80 lb braid, you are either stronger than anyone that I have fished with, or you need some work on you knots. If you are losing fish because of abrasion... well maybe more drag earlier on, so it is harder for them to reach the rocks.
Quote from: boon on September 13, 2022, 11:44:25 PMI have most of my YT rods set for 28lbs initially... gets them moving in the right direction ^-^ But then we're not fishing 30lb sets for them, obviously.
Yup. The lesser of what the reel can handle, what I can handle without injury, and what won't break the line. At 28, it is a bit hard to keep me in the panga if the seas are a bit bouncy. I am usually closer to 20.
Quote from: oldmanjoe on September 13, 2022, 10:48:11 PMI don`t have a dog in this fight . But if i was to experimenter with a drag profile , i would look at spring washers , wave washers and belleville washers and the combinations of both spring and belleville washers . Wave washer would help the low end and the belleville would the high end ..
https://www.spirol.com/assets/files/disc_wp_differences_between_disc_springs_and_belleville_washers_us.pdf
https://www.design-engineering.com/the-difference-between-disc-springs-and-belleville-washers-1004037495/
Interesting on the disc spring vs belleville thing! I keep learning new stuff on this thread. Sounds like more of a spec thing than something functionally different. McMaster uses them interchangeably. But if there was a load to deflection chart, it would take out some of the guesswork, which would be nice.
The goal here is to have a spring stack with a linear load increase as the cam rise compresses it. Not sure that a wave is going to help in this situation, especially where we are talking about some fairly large forces for a spring that small and a limited travel range to work with.
Is there a tutorial showing how to replace the riveted handle knob on this reel?
I'd like to get a blue round knob for it.
thanks,
Rob
A center-punch and a drill press, sadly, or you can mill or file the back off the rivet then punch it out. I can't remember the exact hole diameter.
Are knobs made for different hole diameters? Be good to know before ruining the original.
thanks,
Rob
I checked mine, the hole diameter is probably 5mm. It's between 3/16 and 13/64. Alan' handle bolt is a perfect fit. As long as your replacement bolt is 3/16inch or 5mm, you should be ok.
As far as tutorials, look up Alan's handle installion thread in his section. He does a great job of explaining how to remove the old handles.
Great thread,learned a lot. Received today the 5ii, after playing with it ordered the 5Nii for 30lb use in the GOM on a PCH801H aboard our version of LR boats, the Yankee Captain. Bottom fishing 200-400' for snapper,grouper,blackfin tuna. The 5ii will spool 40lb on a PCH801XH. Also have the new Alijos 5Nii on the Temple Reef 8' Innovate MH. I need to change my name to Okuma Boy!
Quote from: jurelometer on September 13, 2022, 05:17:39 PMQuote from: sabaman1 on September 13, 2022, 07:22:59 AMLooking at the specs and size of the reel it looks to be designed to fish no more than 25lb test mono. Which would give you a setting of maybe 8lbs at strike and 12lbs at full. I think if you want to fish those drag numbers your speaking of, the cavalla 12ll is the reel for you.
The Okuma USA site lists capacity for 40 and 50lb braid, and max drag strike/sunset at 15/24 lbs.
https://okumafishingusa.com/products/cavalla-lever-drag-reels.
The international Okuma site lists same max drag in kilos but doesn't specify braid test, just capacity by line diameter.
Not commenting on what the max practical settings for this reel might be, just what the published specs are.
-J
Sorry, my mistake!
It took just over two weeks to receive the new assembly. Very simple to remove the old shaft and replace with the new shaft, since it included all the parts except the cross pin. After install, I checked the drags and found the drag curve was steeper than before (less movement of the lever results in the drag ramping up quickly). I thought the new heavy bellevilles might be stronger than my previous original set, so I swapped them out for the original set. Exact same drag curve with either set of heavy bellevilles. So now I just have to be careful. If I set the strike position at 14 to 15lbs, full is now 23 to 24 lbs, as advertised by Okuma. So if/when I decide to move the lever past strike, I only need to move it a couple clicks and I am at 18lbs, which is my preferred limit on this reel.
I do not recommend removing the c-clip. It is far too soft and there is a high chance it will deform and therefore be unusable. Someone mentioned in another thread about finding a source for inexpensive replacement c-clips, but it appears that is not an option and Okuma is not listing this c-clip as a separate part that can be purchased, only the entire assembly.
Old/damaged spool shaft is on top with the cross pin, new shaft is on the bottom.
Overall I like the reel, enough that I bought a second one to give as a Christmas gift this year. Mine will get another workout next year when I try for my first tuna on the Pacific Queen 1.5 day trip.
are these the original bellevilles or the new ones that i mailed out to you?
Alan, Both of these sets are the original heavy style. I was not able to use the light version you sent, so I'll get them back in the mail to you.
I used the lighter Belleville's on my Andros and it helped. Rogan you can always remove the small "C" clip that acts as the spool spacer and pull off the other way ??
Hope you are doing well.
Cheers:
Todd
Eegads,
If I understand correctly, the e-clip failed, but the standard c ring clip on the other side held.
Looking at the failed clip photos, a couple thoughts:
An e-clip is better for easily maintenance, but it is not the ideal clip for thrust loads. Curious choice putting a clip there instead of widening the shaft, and then curious-er to use an e-clip. E clips have the least slot contact surface area for these c-type clips.
The cup face of the belleville is going to further weaken the e-clip hold. It would be nice if possible to squeeze a flat washer in there.
-J