First, I don't consider myself an expert at anything. These things that follow are what I've been taught by "them that raised me" and what the surf has taught me. I've heard many, many folks say after their first and only trip, "I went to the beach and it sucked. Surf fishing isn't worth the effort"....on and on. They just didn't know what to look for.
Basically, fish like structures and most fishermen try to find structures and fish around them. The bottom under all those waves has structure. Think about it. Moving water moves things. All that water in a wave doesn't just disappear at the shore. It spreads out and has to go somewhere taking sand and shell along with it. The solids get deposited in formations that become sturdy enough to have an influence on waves and near-shore currents.
Think of this action as a "river" that's several hundred yards wide that runs parallel to the shore and is constantly swirling in huge sweeping loops. Fly fishermen like to target eddies created by something solid in the current. Well, the surf is a long row of these on a much larger scale.
Remember, the water has to go somewhere. As it "goes", you can see (read) it. When it changes direction it creates some kind of surface action that's different from everything around that point. If you have fished moving water over structure, and know how to read it, you can easily learn to read the surf. The surf just has more texture and all of that gives clues as to what's going on underneath.
On a side note, you know when you see a surf fisherman driving on the beach. He's usually not watching where he's going...he's reading the surf looking for something "different" out there. Kinda goofy but it's a thing.
So if you think you're "once and done" with surf fishing, maybe try putting what you already know to work for you and increase your odds by finding ambush points instead of just throwing it out there.
Never really thought about looking for structure in the surf but it makes sense. Usually my surf fishing location is determined by a place without many swimmers, but not so remote that the rest of the family complains. Come to think of it all my surf fishing experiences coincide with family beach trips. Maybe i need to go out on my own.
I study the shoreline during the day.
Then go out at dusk and fish into the night with no one is in the water.
It is surprising what you catch just a few feet off the sand.
Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on February 10, 2023, 08:28:25 PMMaybe i need to go out on my own.
Quote from: Shark Hunter on February 10, 2023, 08:31:37 PMIt is surprising what you catch just a few feet off the sand.
When it's a family outing and the beach is busy, these are parts of the balance we try to handle. Access to remote stretches is an advantage if you go solo. Cold weather helps keep the human population down too.
Shark Hunter! It IS amazing what can be a few feet from your dry feet. I was walking at the shoreline when I heard a commotion behind me. Right there in 3 feet of water was a bull shark chasing mullet. Foot-long mullet were flying out of the water in front of a foot-wide mouth. I could have slapped him on the nose with a rod. I had the whole family with me. First, I got the kids OUT of the water. Then I became Fisher-Man...got the cast net and procured some of that bait. Many were wounded. I didn't land a fish that day, but I lost 40# line and steel tackle. Got my lines pulled and rods bent inside 50 yards. I'll put that in the "plus" column. I probably could have thrown big Rapalas at 'em but would've lost those too! It was fun to watch them scoot across the sandbar with line and leader shining in the sunlight! Their tails cut me off for sure.
So, back to Jason...I had the family that day and had to leave the heavy stuff at home. Most importantly, it was good that I was able to pay attention given the situation. On the other hand, I might have landed more bulls than ever before or since if I had brought the rigs for them. I made do with what I had and enjoyed every minute of it. The kids were real excited to watch everything that went down that day. My wife was freaking out at the "potential" of alternative outcomes. It shook her up. Another day in the coast life for me. You NEVER know what's out there, anything is possible and everybody's gotta eat.
Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on February 10, 2023, 08:28:25 PMNever really thought about looking for structure in the surf but it makes sense. Usually my surf fishing location is determined by a place without many swimmers, but not so remote that the rest of the family complains. Come to think of it all my surf fishing experiences coincide with family beach trips. Maybe i need to go out on my own.
All of my surf fishing was with family
Quote from: Shark Hunter on February 10, 2023, 08:31:37 PMI study the shoreline during the day.
I'm an hour away so it's not practical for me to make a dry run. I'll check the tide chart and plan an exploring/fishing trip during the extreme low tides that max out during the day. If I can couple that with a stiff north wind...even better. My stretch is oriented east-west so a north breeze blows the surf out and calms things down. I get to see the entire first gut exposed and the gaps in the bars are real easy to get a closer look at. As a bonus, I get to walk out to the 1st bar, cast into the deeper/steeper 2nd gut without getting my feet wet or having to wear gear. Yes, I'm fishing but also paying attention to what I'll likely be fishing over in a week or two.
I've noticed that the location of the bar breaks (holes) don't change much or quickly, but the depth and shape of the guts can change +/-. In some instances, the underlying semi-hard clay becomes exposed in the gut. It has a pitted surface with uneven edges...great places for bait critters to hide and start a food chain. Not so great for dragging fixed-wire spider weights or walking on! These spots are good for bouncing light baits in the current while heavy tackle is heaved way out into the beyond....waiting and waiting. I don't like to just sit and stare at rod tips. There's too much water to fish in. Besides, I'm all set at low drag with clickers on. They won't over spool and I'll hear it.
Another thing about bar breaks or holes... these spaces are usually the only spots deep enough where large debris can pass through to the shore. I'm talking about huge tree trunks, mooring bouys, boat parts, dead whales etc. When these land, they can be pretty reliable markers of nearby holes. To test this, find a hole in a bar and then look on shore. Very likely you'll see more heavy stuff congregated in that vicinity all the way back to the dune/vegetation line. (On a natural and unmanicured beach, that is.). Now, that's not to say storms don't move stuff. Generally, large debris close to the water and up to mid-beach is a handy marker when the surf is unruly and hard to read. Also, large debris can offer a good parking spot if it sits in the middle of the "road". Don't park near a dead whale.
Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on February 10, 2023, 08:28:25 PMCome to think of it all my surf fishing experiences coincide with family beach trips.
Quote from: handi2 on February 10, 2023, 11:55:19 PMAll of my surf fishing was with family
Same here. Probably all of my early years were dictated by our kids. As it should be. Fortunately, the beach could provide things every now and then that they couldn't resist and made them kings of the entire world. This photo is precious. It also is an example of a hole marker for the surf fishing I got to do that weekend. They wanted me to drag that thing home!
:D I know you Texans go big , but that is some tide swing there . I bet there is a lot of propeller cut around that buoy. Bet it`s fishy when the tide comes in .
Nice picture of the kids ...
With the Pensacola white sand beaches you would look for the draw or. Where the sand is washed away.
Pompano will come in as close as 9 feet away
Quote from: oldmanjoe on February 11, 2023, 02:38:33 AMI bet there is a lot of propeller cut around that buoy.
Actually, that thing got loose from somewhere and drifted in. I suspect a clevis pin got worn by the chain and finally broke. It was most likely a channel marker with a red/green flasher on top.
Given the prevailing currents, it probably got loose in Louisiana and made it here to the middle TX coast. The coastal bend seems to be the boneyard for big buoys. There are always 3 or 4 types in various stages of decay along this beach. They quickly get stripped of stainless hardware and anything else of value that can be scrapped. The really big ones turn into graffiti boards until they cave in.
I guess they aren't worth recovery even while adrift in deep water. Not something you want to hit at 50 knots in your Midnight Express 43-footer....at midnight.
Quote from: handi2 on February 11, 2023, 02:54:14 AMWith the Pensacola white sand beaches you would look for the draw or. Where the sand is washed away.
Pompano will come in as close as 9 feet away
That's my point. So many turn away from the surf because they just don't know how easy it is to increase their chances. Even though they may have decades of inland fishing experience and already have the smarts. Water is water, it does what it does, and fish do what they do.
You guys in FL have super opportunities by being close enough all the time to 3 bodies of salt water. The Gulf stream almost drops game fish in your laps on the Atlantic side. The only dark side is getting the tar kicked out of you by the storms. I understand why you guys hang on tight. Bass or tarpon... or both in one day! My head would explode.
In the 80's we would find square groupers. You know the bundles of POT washed up on the beach.
Quote from: Shellbelly on February 11, 2023, 03:56:10 AMQuote from: oldmanjoe on February 11, 2023, 02:38:33 AMI bet there is a lot of propeller cut around that buoy.
Actually, that thing got loose from somewhere and drifted in. I suspect a clevis pin got worn by the chain and finally broke. It was most likely a channel marker with a red/green flasher on top.
Given the prevailing currents, it probably got loose in Louisiana and made it here to the middle TX coast. The coastal bend seems to be the boneyard for big buoys. There are always 3 or 4 types in various stages of decay along this beach. They quickly get stripped of stainless hardware and anything else of value that can be scrapped. The really big ones turn into graffiti boards until they cave in.
I guess they aren't worth recovery even while adrift in deep water. Not something you want to hit at 50 knots in your Midnight Express 43-footer....at midnight.
I was funning ya Just like this one .
The following text is the transcript of a radio conversation (a version of it, as the video is another version) of a US naval ship with Canadian authorities off the coast of Newfoundland in October, 1995. Radio conversation released by the Chief of Naval Operations.
Americans: Please divert your course 15 degrees to the North to avoid a collision.
Canadians: Recommend you divert YOUR course 15 degrees to the South to avoid a collision.
Americans: This is the Captain of a US Navy ship. I say again, divert YOUR course.
Canadians: No. I say again, you divert YOUR course.
Americans: This is the aircraft carrier USS Lincoln, the second largest ship in the United States' Atlantic fleet. We are accompanied by three destroyers, three cruisers and numerous support vessels. I demand that YOU change your course 15 degrees north, that's one five degrees north, or countermeasures will be undertaken to ensure the safety of this ship.
Canadians: This is a lighthouse. Your call.
That's priceless!!
Quote from: handi2 on February 11, 2023, 04:38:44 AMIn the 80's we would find square groupers.
In "those days" a DC-3 came up from Colombia to drop a load over some guys waiting on the beach. They dropped about half and had to swing around over the water to finish the job. I guess the pilot swung a little too hard and a wing tip hit the water. The plane tumbled across the beach and came to rest behind the dunes.
By the time the law got there, everything but the plane was gone. No cargo, no bodies, no injured guys. Word got out and people went down there scouring the area for bits of "cargo" that littered the beach. None of the scene was secured. Plane parts and instruments walked off. We watched the County haul the wreckage off on trailers towed by dozers. I heard the "cargo" wasn't all that great after soaking in salt water and mixing with sargassum. Strange that there wasn't a fire with that wreck. Made it seem like a one-way trip.
After that, "shrimpers" became a preferred transport method. It got kinda shady down there for a while until the Feds finally spent some time there in '85.
Great and informative thread, Shellbelly and contributors. The beach ain't just the beach, and the surf ain't just the surf. "Ambush points" I like that'n.
Quote from: Gfish on February 11, 2023, 06:24:03 PMThe beach ain't just the beach, and the surf ain't just the surf.
So true! The beach actually moves inland. That's how dunes are formed. If you come across a 30' log at the waterline, most likely this same log will be several feet inland in a month. In six months it will be much farther. Water pushes and pounds the sand and the entire surface migrates inland. Look closely at that picture of my boys. That buoy had been embedded on the beach for 2-3 months and was about 30 feet from the water. That's not where it landed. That thing made it to the dune line in less than a year and rotted away.
Storm surges do move things around, but these surges also recede and take things back out, so don't be too quick to discount beach migration. Entire recent tide lines of sea vegetation lay in their original positions 50 feet from the current high tide line. Like the water, sand has to go somewhere too. The stuff laying on it and embedded in it moves right along with it. If this wasn't true, then all the stuff of all time would be piled up at the various high water lines. It's like a hand-off of stuff from water to sand to dune. Impossible to see this happen on a manicured beach and many will never see it or know it happens.
This is needing some pictures. I gotta go back now so I can show what I'm yakkin' about.
Here's a photo of low tide and rods out at a hole. Look at the water line. In front of the farthest rod is a point. That's the beginning of a bar that goes out and curves around toward your point of view. Now look down the beach. You see the "scalloped" edge of the water and another longer point farther down? That repeats itself at varying intervals all along this beach for 23 miles. These are pretty close together here.
The farthest rod is cast in the space between the point in front and the end of the bar to the left. The middle one is cast just beyond the bar in front of it, into the 2nd gut. The closest one is cast at the drop-off end of the bar in front. Basically, they are covering two bar breaks and the middle of the gut. I'm looking for fish running the edges...you see, it's simple, tactical, and makes "fishing sense".
Where I'm standing will be 2-4' under at full high tide. Slide the photo to the left and behind the rods you see the exposed shell bottom of what will be the 1st gut. Hopefully full of bait. Look more to the left and you'll see the high tide line where wet sand meets dry sand. Notice how the "scalloped" edge of the high tide line corresponds to the current water line? Now, to prove my earlier point, look in front of the Toyota and in the distance you see large debris...in the vicinity of these holes.
So, in one snapshot you get to see a bunch of clues and subtle structure. You can walk along and throw lures at it, park lead in it, or do both. Also, you can load up and run the length of this beach in 2WD while looking for more drastic curves, gouges, drop-offs, snags, and other dynamics that get covered up at high tide....when you'll need 4WD.
The whole beach doesn't look this tame. It gets real interesting farther down. I love this stuff!
I love this thread. My family.is gonna be annoyed by how specific I suddenly become about our spot, but...
Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on February 12, 2023, 02:58:05 AMMy family.is (https://family.is/) gonna be annoyed
I can relate. "DAD!!!! When are we gonna stop???" If I had a nickel for every time I heard that....
Sometimes the surf says, "You ain't fishin' here today, son." Don't even try because it's a line-fouling mess. Instead, walk it and find other people's tackle. You can't forecast this. It's just part of the deal.
You might be able to run top water stuff over it if the surf is flat. I usually look at it in disgust and try to "make lemonade".
Quote from: Shellbelly on February 12, 2023, 02:55:08 PMSometimes the surf says, "You ain't fishin' here today, son." Don't even try because it's a line-fouling mess. Instead, walk it and find other people's tackle. You can't forecast this. It's just part of the deal.
You might be able to run top water stuff over it if the surf is flat. I usually look at it in disgust and try to "make lemonade".
I bet that's what my beach looks like today. 30mph sustained winds all day. Great day to get some yard work out of the way.
I am four miles inland from the coast. I want to learn how to catch perch from the beach. I was told by a neighbor that you have to know where to go, and I don't yet.
I heard they are good eating.
Yeah. A Springtime surf-fishin reality on the P. Coast. The best I ever did was steeper beaches where warmer water was flowing in. But never got after it enough in favor of anadromous river fishing, or going off the rocks. Getting sand crabs for bait was the thing and wasn't always easy.
Quote from: Rancanfish on February 12, 2023, 03:55:25 PMI was told by a neighbor that you have to know where to go, and I don't yet.
That's the reason to go....cause you want to! Don't wait for someone to point at a place. The "finding" is part of the deal in learning. Pick a stretch of beach and learn to own it like your yard.
I caught this fish the other day so I remember how it came about.
I located a hole and studied it for a few minutes. At the break between the bars, there was a convergence of two currents from the left and right. Where they merged was some turbulence that created a little foam in a line. This foam was moving straight out into the second gut and beyond.
I imagined there was enough flow to suspend and flutter a bait above a 3oz spider. I head-hooked a 4" finger mullet and parked it in the hole and it held on the target. Then I similarly rigged two more rods and set those out about 30 yards on either side. Both of those drifted toward the hole and had to be reset several times. This confirmed what I was seeing.
The target rig got the hit. Random luck? I don't think so. That redfish rounded the corner and found what he was looking for....a mullet fighting against the current and not going anywhere....easy meal.
It was a plan that increased the odds and it worked. The other two lines didn't get a hit. Drifting isn't always a bad thing because it covers more ground. Just gotta keep from fouling other lines.
It was the only fish I landed that day. None of the other spots I fished gave up this strong of a clue.
About the only fishing I do is surf fishing, and it is hard. I look at it like the ocean is a desert with little nooks a crannies (sandbars, small holes, eddies, and runouts) and the fish will only be in a very small percentage of that area, IF it's feeding time. If the water temp is correct. If the water clarity is correct. It is up to you to do the scouting, starting at low tide is ideal as it reveals the structure. People planning to go on vacation to the beach and wet a line is where surf fishing gets its bum rap because its so much harder than it looks. Much like hunting, and to me it is harder than that because you cant see the bottom. It takes a dedicated amount of time and everything continually shifts and changes with the tides and more so from storms. I have found if I get on it, do my scouting, mark what I think are good spots on my GPS, I will eventually find the fish. IF I get away from doing (like, a two week break) that and just go to where I think they have been, it becomes a stroke of luck, and usually, its bad luck and I go home with nothing. Big storms, more than anything, change everything and you then have to pretty much start over. I have a good commercial fisherman friend who hands down slays the pompano here in Florida. He will humble me every time we go, sometimes not standing more than 50 ft from me. I mean, a 10 fish for him to my every one fish type of humbling. Last year we went one day and I counted, he had 40, I had four. Now, 6 would be the limit for me so it was a good day, but you see what I am getting at.He knows the beach, knows what the fish are eating, knows what rig to use and he knows where and how to present said bait/rig. Sometimes I get really mad when I go with him because he makes me look like a fool, yet I pick up a little from him each time and I get better. To me, surf fishing is just difficult and yet very rewarding when you catch your limit of pomps, and go home happy. But, one must dedicate ones self.
Quote from: Rancanfish on February 12, 2023, 03:55:25 PMI am four miles inland from the coast. I want to learn how to catch perch from the beach. I was told by a neighbor that you have to know where to go, and I don't yet.
I heard they are good eating.
I've never been a fan of eating surf perch. The taste isn't bad, but the meat is too mushy for me. I know a lot of people who do like to eat them, though.
The simplest way of catching them, IMO, is a 2500 spinning reel with a 7' light to ML rod. C-rig with an arms length leader of 6-8lb mono. You don't need fluoro for perch as they aren't line shy.
2" Gulp sandworms in CAMO color absolutely slays perch. If they are around they will bite it. Perch are notorious for biting the tails off of these lures, so I like to use a longshank #6 hook so I get the barb closer to the tail of the sandworm. Another trick I like to do is to lay the sandworms out on a paper towel over night and let them completely dry out. They will turn into hard little nubs, but if you put them back into water they will rehydrate.They will only return to about 90% of their original size when you rehydrate them, but it also makes them a little tougher so they won't come off of the hook as easily.
To fish it just cast out and do a slow and steady retrieve. Fan cast a few times in one spot and if you don't get any bites after a few casts then move on down the beach a little ways. Eventually as you spend enough time fishing different spots you will start to understand the surf better and notice what spots produce more than others.
@Jenx I agree, surf perch is mushy. I like catching them and eating them as they are tasty. I'm trying to figure out how to firm up their flesh...salt? Wait a day or two to dry them out a bit? I don't know.
Quote from: Rancanfish on February 12, 2023, 03:55:25 PMperch from the beach
I'd like to see a picture of a surf perch. Are they soft and mushy after freezing or when fresh?
Sometimes I catch what we call Sand Trout. Think speckled trout with no spots and no green tint. These are only palatable when fresh...I mean the day you catch them. Straight from the cutting board and into the corn meal. If frozen, they lose all texture. Also, if they're handled roughly, or you fill the cooler with a hundred, they bruise easily. I usually toss 'em back. I don't want to "manage" the fish cooler.
Some years ago, I was getting bait with a cast net when an elderly couple stopped by. The gentleman asked if I was catching any large mullet. I did have some that were over 12". He asked if he could have some and I gave him 4 live fish. He and his wife were going to sit on the beach and enjoy smoked mullet. I shuddered at the idea, but they were very pleased and told me I didn't know what I was missing. They were from Maine, I think. Very pleasant people. I fished close by and enjoyed their company.
So far I've met a few people who were netting huge mullet near where i was fishing. I talked to them a bit and the consistent answer is that to them mullet taste better than any predatory fish. One fella went as far as to say that he's a commercial fisherman and can eat whatever fish he wants, but he prefers mullet over any fish in the Gulf.
But then I also know a fella who targets crevalle jacks to eat and will throw back slot snook or reds because he doesn't like the taste.
So clearly some of it is just personal preference.
Quote from: Jenx on February 14, 2023, 10:02:41 PMEventually as you spend enough time fishing different spots you will start to understand the surf better and notice what spots produce more than others.
That's good advice. You have to cover some ground. Sometimes moving 50' will fill the cooler.
Some of the burrowing food sources colonize certain stretches or prefer a unique environment. Sand fleas like to stay in bunches, for example. You can buy or make a basket to "dredge" these from the edges. Some invertebrates attach bits of shell to their "tubes" and remnants wash up to give you a clue that somebody has been feeding on them. Evidence of eating washes up regularly. I've seen large fish with crescent chunks missing or bitten in half...guess what did that! If those fish are fresh, I'm tossing lines out.
Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on February 15, 2023, 03:52:21 PMthe consistent answer is that to them mullet taste better than any predatory fish. One fella went as far as to say that he's a commercial fisherman and can eat whatever fish he wants, but he prefers mullet over any
You know, sometimes you can't make yourself eat certain things. Some will not eat an oyster. Mullet is one of those things for me. I've cut too many of 'em open and seen what's inside. Maybe I should just man up, get past it and try it. We can be so wimpy sometimes!
So, I'm gonna go tomorrow unless it's stormy. I'll try to get some pics of varying shorelines and other conditions. I realize that my area isn't the same as the rest of the world, but the principles of current and structure are constants, IMO.
If I don't catch fish, I'll likely find a few shells.
Quote from: Shellbelly on February 15, 2023, 03:01:51 PMI'd like to see a picture of a surf perch. Are they soft and mushy after freezing or when fresh?
Here's a picture of a barred serf perch. You might recognize the guy holding it.
They are mushy when fresh or frozen. Barred surf perch are the most common species, at least here in southern California. The are usually small in size, but during spawning season the females can get at least a couple of pounds in size. What is interesting is they give live birth, so often times the females are dropping babies as you are quickly trying to unhook them.
I heard a story of a guy keeping some perch he caught in a bucket. When Fish and Game came by to check on his catches he noticed one of the perch he caught had given berth to a bunch of babies. The Fish and Game officer counted each baby towards his bag limit, and fined him for going over the limit.
No clue if that story was true, or just another tall fishing tale.
(https://www.santacruzsentinel.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/STC-L-FISHRAP-0204-01-e1643887769447.jpg?w=1308)
Quote from: Bryan Young on February 15, 2023, 01:32:00 AM@Jenx I agree, surf perch is mushy. I like catching them and eating them as they are tasty. I'm trying to figure out how to firm up their flesh...salt? Wait a day or two to dry them out a bit? I don't know.
I smoked some surf perch once, and that helped firm the meat up.
some beaches(So. Calif) have sand so dense and hard packed you can drive a vehicle on it. Other beaches, the sand is so soft and loose your feet sink into it and its hard to walk.Some are really fine grain particles and some are large grain and almost gravel. Does it make a difference?
Quote from: Jenx on February 15, 2023, 05:18:17 PMI smoked some surf perch once, and that helped firm the meat up.
How do you keep it lit?
Quote from: Jenx on February 15, 2023, 05:14:09 PMHere's a picture of a barred serf perch. You might recognize the guy holding it.
Allright! Looks like a fun fish to hook regardless. Perch types can get erratic and make you grin a lot.
I've seen that guy before! Give him a wide berth when he slings those jigs. ;)
Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on February 15, 2023, 06:21:45 PMHow do you keep it lit?
LMBO!!
Quote from: funhog on February 15, 2023, 05:33:57 PMsome beaches(So. Calif) have sand so dense and hard packed you can drive a vehicle on it. Other beaches, the sand is so soft and loose your feet sink into it and its hard to walk.Some are really fine grain particles and some are large grain and almost gravel. Does it make a difference?
I would think a compacted gravel bottom would be stable and any structural formations would be more permanent...less susceptible to routine currents. If true, then the ambush points will be consistent with less need to read the surf to discover them.
The finer the material, the more likely it will shift in the water. Sand has very little adhesion when dry or somewhat soaked. Wet sand near the tide line can be pretty firm and also out in the water....until you agitate it....or current stirs it. Wading the surf usually doesn't allow much "standing still" by the fisherman. It's nearly impossible in moving water.
Whatever the beach is made of, there will be unique properties that are influenced by currents...long or short-term. Also, the type of material will be home to things adapted to it and that's part of the discovery the fisherman has to undertake. Not only for the game but for the tackle tailored for the conditions. And about tackle, don't let yourself become boxed in by certain standards or opinions. Make what you think will mimic a good bait action if your store-bought stuff doesn't cut it for you. If you want to drag a red necktie with a hook on it...it's your world.
Kinda looks like Allan's using a polychaete(sea worm?). He and his Brother prolly got some good PAC. Coast tips for the Surfpearch.
An interesting thread!
https://marinespecies.wildlife.ca.gov/barred-surfperch-and-redtail-surfperch/true/ (https://marinespecies.wildlife.ca.gov/barred-surfperch-and-redtail-surfperch/true/)
I think that the primary food for these guys is the mole crab (AKA sand flea). They dig into the sand, so they probably don't like too hard of a bottom. You also want some churn in the surf. SoCal beaches can be a bit on the calm side.
I suck at reading the surf. The surfers laugh at me. But I can read the science :)
Reading up on mole crabs tells you a lot about why the best pacific surf perch fishermen are successful. In the winter months, the surf is roiled up and the crabs are dispersed. Spring to summer, the crabs mate (spawn?) frequently and tend to aggregate in bunches, They feed by filtering, so they want some wash, but not enough to dislodge them. And they continually move around to stay in prime feeding conditions.
The more successful surf perch guys tend to cast/move/cast/move, working those rubber grubs or pile worms until they hook a fish, and then work the spot for awhile. I think that what they are doing is locating mole crab concentrations. Casting at an angle can cover more useful water than bombing out a long cast past where the mole crab are hanging out. I have hooked plenty of surf perch in knee deep water when I got distracted while my fly drifted behind me, back towards the beach.
I think that the perch tend to hang out in the troughs next to the shallow beds, and will move in after a wave to pick off any exposed crabs. Then back into a holding pattern in the trough.
-J
The "live birth" thing about these fish is mind-blowing. Think of the feeding frenzy!
Quote from: jurelometer on February 15, 2023, 08:36:45 PMI suck at reading the surf. The surfers laugh at me. But I can read the science :)
You can do it. Just don't try to "read" the whole elephant at first glance. Start by picking a spot that's 50' X 50'. Move your gaze over, out, in, whatever and compare. If something is different, figure out why. Repeat. You'll start to see patterns. You have to get into the "Z axis" of that world. X and Y are just clues, nothing more.
The guys in FL use sand fleas for Pompano. Those guys are SERIOUS about Pompano! There's a video showing how to catch and cook those little things, too. I don't know, man....that's out there like eating bugs or something.
If my wife saw those crawling around, and one got on her foot, she'd lock herself in the truck. I'd die laughing...and get called vile names.
Sand fleas. I think I've seen these attached to redfish. Also, I think I've seen a massive hatch of them as well. I'm talking about thousands of tiny "bugs" suspended just inside the tide line. Whatever they were, they attached to my ankles and were pretty irritating. They weren't biting, just hanging on, and were itchy. I had to take my shoes off cause they were getting in there too. The sandpipers were having a feast. This was in the summer and looking back, I was so irritated that I didn't think about "rigging for the food chain". Instead, I went out there barefoot and risked getting stabbed by big flat sea monsters. Go figure.
Quote from: Shellbelly on February 16, 2023, 06:07:15 AMSand fleas. I think I've seen these attached to redfish.
Maybe what you saw clamped onto the redfish were parasitic isopods. They look similar. Mole crabs don't have the equipment or incentive to catch a ride.
Never saw a spawning mass of mole crabs. That must have been interesting.
The baby Pacific surf perch squirt out tail first, and are relatively large considering the size of the mom. Doesn't look very comfortable. Rather than playing the numbers game with thousands of egg and larvae, surf perch invest in around one to three dozen fully formed swimming mini-perch that are are released one at a time. So no feeding frenzy event for predators. It's kind of amazing that they have held up to the fishing pressure with such a low reproduction rate.
-J
Quote from: jurelometer on February 16, 2023, 07:19:33 AMNever saw a spawning mass of mole crabs. That must have been interesting.
Never saw that again, either. They were smaller than a ladybug. If I would have been thinking like a fisherman, I would have skimmed up a few thousand in a bucket, dumped them in deeper water, and fished it. No telling what that could have started. Maybe nothing, but I should have tried.
I didn't go out today due to the probable very high and rough surf. Spots could be or become impassable. Getting cut off isn't an option. We had a front come through early this morning so the surf has had a north wind on it all day and this will continue for another day, almost two. It usually takes a day of this wind to push the surf back and calm it down. Tomorrow, the 17th is the day.
The evening before I go, I ALWAYS check the tide charts and make mental plans for where I want to be when the tide changes and when it's going to be high. Depending on conditions, this can dictate how far I go and when I need to head back. Next is where I want to be when the tide changes, how many tides will occur, and their relative effects on water levels.
The next chart I ALWAYS check is currents. I want to know when the current is approaching slack and plan where I want to be when this occurs. Speed is also a good thing to know. Will you be able to keep a line in place?
There's plenty of other data that I find somewhat useful and geeky. Just search tides and currents and dive into all kinds of data and charts. I like the basics: can I get on/off the beach and can I keep a line out.
Then I'll dig into fishing details and plans to conquer the world.
I hope these two charts are legible. These are the predicted conditions for the water.
Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on February 15, 2023, 03:52:21 PMSo far I've met a few people who were netting huge mullet near where i was fishing. I talked to them a bit and the consistent answer is that to them mullet taste better than any predatory fish. One fella went as far as to say that he's a commercial fisherman and can eat whatever fish he wants, but he prefers mullet over any fish in the Gulf.
But then I also know a fella who targets crevalle jacks to eat and will throw back slot snook or reds because he doesn't like the taste.
So clearly some of it is just personal preference.
Ted Peters in St.Petersburg (Pasadena) smoked fish's main dish is mullet and they have been there since the 1950's. While slightly oily, it is my favorite smoked fish. Others must agree, they are still open, a very iconic place.
http://tedpetersfish.com/index.htm
Are we talking about the same mullets that live down here in SoCal? The same mullets where reports of someone catching one on hook and line are almost as rare as unicorn sightings? The same mullets who on slow fishing days, when you are facing a skunk, seem to jump out of the water a little more excessively than usual as if they are mocking you? Or is that a different species of mullet? I have also heard they are good eating. I have also heard they put up a fun fight if you are lucky enough to hook one (usually foul-hooked).
Quote from: Jenx on February 17, 2023, 03:54:36 PMAre we talking about the same mullets that live down here in SoCal? The same mullets where reports of someone catching one on hook and line are almost as rare as unicorn sightings? The same mullets who on slow fishing days, when you are facing a skunk, seem to jump out of the water a little more excessively than usual as if they are mocking you? Or is that a different species of mullet? I have also heard they are good eating. I have also heard they put up a fun fight if you are lucky enough to hook one (usually foul-hooked).
https://myfwc.com/fishing/saltwater/recreational/mullet/
Quote from: Jenx on February 17, 2023, 03:54:36 PMAre we talking about the same mullets that live down here in SoCal?
Striped Mullet. They jump for the heck of it. They like to body surf in the crests of waves. Their insides are really nasty. Don't cut one on the cooler lid and let that stuff dry out.
Kids can't leave 'em alone when you try to keep some alive in a 5-gallon bucket. You have to give the kids their own bucket of mullet. Trust me on this.
Pretty sure it's the same mullet you're talking about.
Quote from: Breadfan on February 17, 2023, 01:54:52 PMOthers must agree, they are still open, a very iconic place.
I would try it in a place like that.
I went out yesterday and took some photos while the tide was low and the north wind had the water pushed way-way out. These show the "structure" I've been attempting to describe. All of this would normally be within 100 yards of shore and offer plenty of casting opportunities while your long lines are parked beyond this space. Or, you just want to wade out and cast for a while.
If you wade out 50-75 yards, you have 360 degrees of work to do in overlapping circles for miles or until your arm gives out. If you only use artificials, I strongly suggest a snap swivel for quick changes. Sometimes things occur that only last for a minute or two. (think: white bass) Some might cringe at using a snap swivel instead of a knot. This is moving water folks so get past it... or stand there and tie-away while trout blow up then disappear while you mess with a knot. Your goal should be 30 seconds from the time you see the need to switch to the time you cast it.
Using live bait works a bit slower due to, well....lugging live bait somehow or going back and forth to get it. It can restrict your range but can also be more productive with little or no tackle changes while you work. More convenient when you have long lines out and aren't wandering very far from those.
The top (1st) photo (of previous post) shows the decline into the 1st gut and the latest high tide line to the left.
2nd photo is standing in the (mostly empty) 1st gut. Look at the windblown water surface near the center. This will be a break between the bar you see coming at you in the distance and the bar beginning at the right. You can see the water colliding and going out here.
3rd photo is a bar showing how it curves and if you understand flow and eddy, you can see where you would fish this while standing on it. Look at the water pooled around it. If the current is L-R, where will bait hide and where would the predator likely approach? How will bait act in this when it's submerged and in the current? All these clues tell you what to do with any lure or natural bait you might throw at this.
Now, those 3 photos are small-scale examples that just happen to "fit" the field of view of my phone camera. They give a basic idea of the formation. Normal formations are larger, deeper, taller, and longer.
4th photo is a large "pool" where the currents collide and go out between bars. There is a pretty steep drop there on the shoreside. These can hold good numbers of bait. The downside is trash. Loose vegetation and stuff will collect here and swirl around...when present. These spots are numerous, easy to see from the windshield, and offer plenty of options. Sometimes they are close together or can be a couple of hundred yards apart. I like to work the ones that are closer together.
5th photo, left, is a shell bank on the decline toward the bottom of the gut. This tells you that the wave action here is strong enough to toss big shells and the current can be strong enough to keep the bottom of the gut deep and clear of them. When submerged, this bank will hold small bait that will have to move around as these shells get tossed and rolled. To me, these banks say, "Whiting....then Black Tip". Get it?
6th photo is a clay-mud bottom. Pretty obvious that things will swim and crawl around here. Good chance that sheepshead will work this type of bottom. Not good for spider weights or big hooks.
The last photo shows a long stretch of shell bank and how it transitions into a more sandy bottom. These are usually steep so don't go striding off into these quickly. Ankle-to-knee deep can be one step and the next can be up to your nads. Seriously guys and gals, you can lose your balance. Walk slowly, kind of drag your feet, and feel what the bottom is doing. This photo shows a point at the truck shadow. Usually, this means the currents are colliding here.
To you who are surf lovers, this stuff is already imprinted in your DNA and what took me so many paragraphs, you interpret at a glance and in seconds. All this was intended to help somebody who wants to fish the surf but just doesn't think they could be any good at it. I'm sure there are so many more ways to break this down, but this is how I see it and what it tells me to do. 8)
So I got to do an hour of surf fishing this weekend. I had to pack light this trip so all I had was my small 2 piece rods. So I tried to fish the structure close to shore. I did a bit of walking to find a spot the wave action was different, and what I found interesting was that in the high surf (probably 4-5' choppy but surfable eaves) the inflection point of the coastline was seemingly moving down the coast at about 50' per hour. I was basically following a point that waves were crashing against and carrying my line out.
Nothing landed but the big shrimp I was using kept getting bit in half by fish that clearly didn't have big enough mouths to swallow them.
I did get a 24" snook from the dock, but that was quite separate. All in all an educational experience.
Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on March 12, 2023, 11:00:09 PMNothing landed but the big shrimp I was using kept getting bit in half by fish that clearly didn't have big enough mouths to swallow them.
YES! Step one....check! You followed the clues of your beach and found biting fish. (Don't minimize success.) If they were snatching half the shrimp in one hit, not pecking at it, that's an aggressive bite...and your next clue.
What I do in that situation is go to a smaller hook and use half a shrimp...even try peeling the shrimp back a little. I want to see what's feeding because THAT could be the bait to use....if it's "legal" to use as bait, of course. I keep little wire hooks and split shot just for bait if that's what I have to do.
If I catch the bait-stealer, I'll put it on a hook, cut or whole depending on size, and park it where I think its predator might be. Or, rig it for casting if you want to....it's all good. Just keep climbing the food chain that you find because that's what's going on where you are at that time.
BTW, if the bait-stealers are hard-head catfish or little gaftop, you'll have to switch to live finger mullet or go into your arsenal of artificials. Change your presentation somehow to get the bait out of their realm of feeding habits or they'll eat everything you've got. They're like seagulls.
Here's a little more evidence for identifying and increasing your odds in the surf. I went out yesterday during a low tide with a north wind at 10-15.
I was pleased to find this exposed bar that shows the termination of a gut on the landside and allows easy casting access to the deep break in the submerged 2nd sand bar about 100 yards to the left. You can see the "beginning" of the 1st gut and how it's spreading out. Sometimes this can provide excellent access to live bait. This spot says, "FISH HERE".
Threw a 4-5" mullet on a steel leader with a 3oz pyramid. Penn 209 with 40# big game on a 9'6" frankenrod.
As I was walking the gut looking for mullet, a bull hit the bait. Maybe 5 minutes after casting. It took a while to get the fish in hand. This big girl weighed 29#. I seemed to have misplaced my tape so I'm guessing at 36"+. Probably a 16" girth. Put her back. There's no telling how many fish she has produced and has yet to.
The 209 didn't complain but I did have to dance around a bit to keep the rod in my favor until the fish was ready to lay up on her side.
I believe this confirms you can get to these fish quickly when you learn the nature of the structure.
Shortly afterward, the water got trashy with leafy uprooted vegetation...impossible to fish.
Just using this photo, magnify and you can see how the bar I'm on drops down to just below the water. The waves are breaking all along its leading edge as far as you can see.
If conditions hadn't gotten so trashy, I would have walked this bar with a 6-6 casting rod and a 6600 C5. It looks like it runs about 200 yards to some kind of break where the "slick" kind of stops in the distance. The gut to the right is too shallow to hold game fish.
I would have worked a top dog, hard and splashy, on the way out and some kind of L&S swimmer on the way back...for round one. Spoons for round two. North wind at your back makes for amazing casts....kastmaster lovers. This spot could have kept me busy most of the day with one surf rig and a bait caster. That was the plan as soon as I saw all this.
For a family, this spot has plenty to offer. A long shallow and protected gut to play in and a good dry sand bar to hang out on. Well away from the "road". Probably wouldn't see another soul all day.
Lots of potential in this scenario. Never pass it up when it's handed to you like this.
I only had about an hour to fish the beach this morning. So I packed light, walked til I found the rip current, and what do ya know in 10 minutes i found a keeper.
It's a black margate. Not gonna lie i had to look it up. Fillets smell like a snapper. Fun fight on Steve's old calcutta 250
That's a cool-looking fish! Those rips are fun to work bait in...especially where they turn or go around humps. Think about jumping a 1 oz spoon on a retrieve against rips. A couple of jumps like a mullet then twitch it as it sinks. 5:1 or faster reel helps. It's a high rod tip trick, kinda risky if you get hit while you're pointing straight up. Use that current!
Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on November 23, 2023, 06:07:37 PMfound the rip current,
That fish was super tasty, and i got a lot of meat from it. And in FL theres no size limit.
I'll definitely be keeping any more of those if I catch them again. But that was the first in 3 decades of fishing so I'm not holding my breath.
Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on November 26, 2023, 07:06:47 PMBut that was the first in 3 decades of fishing
They like rocky stuff. Was it like a sheepshead, big bones and all that?
Cool fish. It is a grunt. More data from my favorite internet source:
https://mexican-fish.com/black-margate/ (https://mexican-fish.com/black-margate/)
Normally found shallow on sloping rocky bottom as Shellbelly notes.
I have caught exactly one of its Pacific cousin.
https://mexican-fish.com/burrito-grunt/ (https://mexican-fish.com/burrito-grunt/)
Pulled pretty hard too! A really cool fish, but nobody gets impressed when you tell them that you caught a Burrito Grunt :) Black Margate sounds much better.
Looks like night fishing is the way to go for these guys.
-J
Yeah this one was caught around 8am. I guess he was running late.I'd say the bones were thick but closer to mangrove snapper than a sheep, save for one surprisingly beefy rib. Surprisingly big scales.
Apparently eating the large specimens is linked to ciguatera poisoning. Though by my limited understanding that's a regional thing.
Did you make a burrito out of it? I cooked my fillets in butter with some salt n pepper plus some garlic and a pinch of dry italian herbs in the pan. Surprisingly good. Not a super firm flesh but not mushy.
Let him go. Never saw one before. My policy is never to keep a fish that might end up being some sort of endangered species. Turns out that the locals think that they are tasty, and not considered an at-risk species.
I have all sorts of ridiculous rules. Won't cast to billfish. Apologize if I hook a shark. Used to release African pompano because they were too good-looking (until I tried some for sashimi). Won't keep vieja (Mexican hogfish) because they look like something from Ren and Stimpy.
But if it is the first decent sized cabrilla (leopard grouper) of the day or a not too big jurel (yellowtail jack), it will be invited for dinner without a shred of guilt.
I guess that I don't have to be too rational about the selection process since we are doing this for fun, and nothing about sportfishing is entirely rational.
-J
Quote from: jurelometer on November 28, 2023, 05:03:32 AMI guess that I don't have to be too rational about the selection process
I agree. Sometimes I release everything. I've found myself just walking the beach with a rod, but not casting. Then turn around and can barely see my vehicle. Foggy days are my favorites. Other times, I'm all business and will work it until I'm exhausted. There are no rules, just opportunities. In the winter, the solitude is gratifying. Not hearing a human-generated sound for hours is a scarce and unique experience on the beach. It's like a great song you haven't heard in a long, long time. 8)