wet versus dry. seems like i've been fighting this battle for the last 10 years. what's the big deal? i still get asked once in a while, so i'd like to go through some points that i think are important and then i think you'll have a better idea of where i'm coming from.
just so we're all on the same page, i'd like to define a few terms i use. the first is "start up." when you first pull on the line, some drags tend to stick a little, so you have to pull a little harder. once the line starts moving, it may take, say, 5 pounds of drag to keep the line moving. that initial pull may take 6 pounds to get it started. that extra pound (or 20%) is what i refer to as "start up." with a horribly sticky drag, the start up might be as high as 100%. my personal preference is zero.
the next is your drag setting. simple enough. it's the number of pounds needed to keep the line peeling off the spool once it starts moving. that number will increase as the spool height decreases. it actually doubles when the spool height decreases by half. for spinning, star and lever drag reels, i will quote a drag setting but always add "at the top of the spool, " even if i do not.
then there is "accelleration" or "high speed runout." this is the nasty tendency for a greased drag to become more slippery. a gentleman named cal sheets has done work some on this. imagine a situation with a large shimano tiagra 80, a 50# drag setting, and a 500# tuna. such a fish might take a 100 yard run in 10 seconds. cal sheets had found that the functional drag would decrease as much as 40% during these hard runs. it was not necessarily a function of temperature, it was interestingly more a function of speed.
the shimano star drag grease is a pure teflon product that has a melting temperature of 300 degrees farenheit. when applied in excess, this problem with accelleration was noted. when the excess was removed, it became less of a problem, but i do not know how much less. cal sheets also now sells a pure teflon grease. it has a melting temperature of 500 degrees farenheit. it is applied liberally to the drag washer of a large lever drag reel, then the excess is vigorously wiped off. cal sheets says that this has eliminated the problem of accelleration. i have no reason do doubt his work, but i have not seen the data.
and lastly, my definition of a properly functioning drag system. try this with your own rod and reel. spool the reel with a desired line weight. let's say 20 pound monofilament, just to pick a number. place the reel on the rod. run the line through the guides. tie with line off to a 5 pound weight, which is 25% of your line weight. clamp down on the drag star. reel down to the weight. lift the rod up until the grip is at a 45 degree angle. now adjust the drag until the weight drops one foot every 5 seconds. if your reel can perform to this level, then you have near zero start up. this is my definition of a properly functioning drag system.
regarding greased carbon fiber drag upgrades in top drag spinning reels, bait casters and small to medium conventional star drag reels, i simply find a carbon fiber drag washer that gives me a "best fit." i can cut them down to size pretty easily if needed. i slap a thick coat of grease on the drag washers, install them and let the grease squeeze out the sides. when i first started doing this, my friends were amazed at the smoothness and level of performance and reliability. many tackle pros, shop owners, repair personel and industry were adament that i was totally wrong. sometimes, it got personal. so what i did was to slap in more grease, and then take pictures. i just used the excess grease in non-lever drag reels just to annoy the non-believers. and one fisherman, after another, after another, would say "yes, i own this reel," and "yes, it is as smooth as he says." oh, and "yes, these drags last forever!" and for the most part, the harassment stopped. it is true that you get no respect on the internet without pictures.
what about lever drag reels? i always wipe off the excess, but that is because it allows me to get a higher strike drag setting before losing freespool. i am also concerned about accelleration, but i believe it will only be an issue with one fisherman out of 10,000. the start up remains zero and that's my main concern. the grease also prevents water damage to the drag washer and aluminum underneath. and when i say that i've almost won, here's what i mean. shimano started out with greased carbon fiber. they get credit for that original innovation. you will now see greased carbon fiber drag washer in all of the flagship two speed lever drag reels, including penn, daiwa, okuma, accurate and tiburon. only avet and alutecnos have dry systems. someday, that too may change. and then i will call my victory complete.
why no grease star drag reels from the major manufacturers? only progear has a greased carbon fiber drag system. i can only guess, but perhaps other manufacturers consider this system to be too expensive. and why make a reel with a drag system that will last forever, when they would rather have you buy another reel. as for spinners? they WANT you to buy a new one each year. otherwise, why would they introduce a new model every year? basically, start up is the main issue here. accelleration will never be. but this is a battle i know i will never win. it is simple frustration on my part, but i wonder somtimes if companies deliberatly make a reel that they know will fail, just so that they can sell another one.
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Hello Alan,
I finally got a chance to play around with my newell 550 and 646 reel. I initially tried to use the penn 555 ht-100 fiber washers because it closely resembled the size of the carbontex for the 550. It was just a hair bigger on the outside diameter. The inside diameter is exactly the same. However, the thickness of the washer is fatter than the carbontex. Anyway, it did not work.
So I finally said, okay, although the carbontex washer are a lot more expensive compared to the ht100's, I will just give it a try. I greased it all up and installed them. At first, it seemed that it really lost power. Then after I fished with them, washed down the reel, and tried it again, yes they really improved. I guess the grease needed to be "worked into the washer". Nonetheless, what a difference in smoothness! Absolutely no "herky jerky" stickiness. I did notice that I lost some of the power but at 8 or 9 on a scale of 10 is not so bad considering the smoothness that I gained.
I also do notice the difference in power between the 646 reel and the 550 reel. I guess the two added washers in the drag stack really makes a difference. Anyway, both of them are converted (dry to greased) and feel excellent! Now, I need to break out my penn spinners and do the same to the drag stack. The stickiness in spinners are even more pronounced than the conventional reels.
Thanks again for your help, Frank
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Hi, Alan. Just wanted to say thanks to you for all the wonderful reel maintenance posts you have made over the years. It has greatly influenced what I have purchased in the last years (Avet, Pro Gear Albacore 280, and Penn 975 star drag). Last year I fished my Avet SX MC more than anything else with 50 braid on a 100 lb Shimano Trevala rod, which I even broke and Shimano replaced free. Not any monster fish, but loads and loads of them: bluefish, stripers, fluke, bonita, and false albacore. Anyway I just took my Avet apart after its first year of heavy use-- it has the glued on drag washer. I had greased it when new, every screw and every inside surface. It was super clean inside, zero corrosion. I wiped it clean of old grease and again used liberal amounts of Penn grease away from the shaft and drag, Cal's on the drag then wiped clean, and Corrosion-X on the shaft/ spool bearing area. The reel is so fast I am not worried about giving up a little free-spool in exchange for corrosion protection. Good to go for another year. This reel takes lots of salt water spray in the boat, but gets lightly rinsed after every trip and air dried. The outside gets sprayed with Penn reel cleaner before every use, which is a corrosion inhibitor. Thanks again, and Happy New Year! Jim
people still have questions about this!
http://www.pierandsurf.com/fishing-forum/showthread.php?t=73079
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Newsjeff
Registered User Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Sandbridge
Posts: 3,919
Drag grease
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I own four Daiwa Saltist reels. I have fished each of these reels with Daiwa's stock drag washers for at last a year, some of them for two years. They are very fine reels, and I very pleased to fish with them. They are, in fact, my favorite reels for surf and pier fishing for cobia, drum and striper. Each of these four reels had their fiber drag washers loaded with grease when I bought them. And each of these reels had poor drag pressure out of the box. Drag pressure did improve with time. The drags got even better after I cleaned the grease off the fiber washers. There has been a lot of talk about putting drag grease on carbon fiber washers. However, I'm still not convinced this is a good idea. The stock fiber washers in the Daiwa Saltist reels are carbon fiber. In fact, they look identical to the Carbontex washers from Smooth Drag. The only difference between the stock washers and a set of Carbontex is the fourth fiber washer under the main gear. The stock one looks like it's made of paper. Even so, I don't think you can blame poor drag performance entirely on the stock Saltist washers, IMHO. Almost everyone in the know seems to agree there are two types of grease sold that work well on carbon fiber washers, Shimano's and Cal's drag grease. Could it be the type of drag grease that Daiwa used on the stock washers isn't up to par? To be honest, I don't know. I assume that Diawa used their special "drag grease" on the fiber washers, but I honestly have no idea. Maybe the large amount of drag grease that Diawa loaded onto the fiber washers decreased the drag force? Most of the people I respect insist that a small amount of drag grease - just enough to leave a finger print - is all the grease you need on carbon washers. Again, wiping off the excess drag grease on the stock Daiwa washers did improve the drag.
Or could it be that using no drag grease at all carbon fibers washers provides the best drag pressure. That's where I'm leaning right now. I just installed three sets of Carbontex washers in my Saltists. I put a light amount of Cal's Drag on the fiber washers in each of these reels. In hindsight, I'm not sure I shoulda done this, but we'll see. I'll keep ya'll updated on how drags work under these conditions.
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Last edited by Newsjeff; 02-07-2010 at 09:01 PM.
and here's another....
http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/showthread.php?t=160851
Quotepost #1
the baker
Ausfish Bronze Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Sippy Downs
Thanks: 65
Thanked 26 Times in 25 Posts
Drag Washers
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Hey all, Anyone using the carbontex drag washers in the tyrnos 30 and TLD 25 reels and can you tell me what the upgrades are like and what was the cost
the other Question I have is that can you use Cals drag grease on any drag washer. Thanks for your help. Dave
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I am not an Angler I am an Athlete of the sea.............Call sign- Wild Child. VHF 21, 73.
Hi...
Please help me what best i use for my bc reel daiwa zillion 100 hsla 50th anniversary, dry or wet drag? coz when i see 1st time drag, it use dry drag...
thanx...
Chris, if the reel has carbon fiber washers, Cals or Shimano drag grease is best, they'll never wear out, start up is negligible and no sticking. You just won't be able to get this with dry washers......
besides if the cf washers are dry there is no protection from corrosion for the spool!end of story
should the cf washers be replaced when they become smooth.some of my drags are smooth and they work just fine.is there a use by date?whats the real story?
My observation on this topic is as follows. I changed a large collection of reels over to greased Carbontex drag washers. I have only fished a third of them so far this season. I viewed the tutorials and was a little skeptical about the amount of grease applied to the drag washers. I just dismantled a Calcutta 400 with little fishing time on the reel and was amazed at how much was absorbed by the drag washers. They were dry. A second coat, put the reel back together and smooth again. I compare the first light coat as a sealer coat that gets absorbed completely. The second light coat actually works as a wet drag which Alan and many others have done the testing to prove the effectiveness. I am confident all of my gear is race ready thanks to all of the input from here, Thanks all, Brendan.
should there be any grease on the plate the drag washer rubs against?
There will usually be a thin coat of drag grease on the pressure plates or metal drag washers due to transfer from the grease CF drag washers.
''drag grease" ;D
I know it's an old post and it's probably a rookie question, but then again...I'm a rookie. looks like you can use Cal's drag grease on drags, and anywhere else where grease would go in the reel. I'm probably going to get some Cal's, but until then I am using reel butter at this time. Am I correct to assume that you guys would suggest go with dry drags rather than using this grease?
Jim
Yes.
Most carbon fiber drags suffer ill consequences when exposed to petroleum-based products over time. A PTFE or a Teflon-infused grease, such as Cal's, will not degrade the resins bonding the carbon fiber in the drag discs. Your reel butter is probably a better grease for the gears, and remainder of the reel. It can be thinned using corrosion X if needed.
The Ardent Reel Butter is fully synthetic but I do not the make up of the grease. It may work fine in small reels with the excess wiped off.
At least better than nothing.
Quote from: kungajim on June 21, 2016, 08:30:18 PM
I know it's an old post and it's probably a rookie question, but then again...I'm a rookie. looks like you can use Cal's drag grease on drags, and anywhere else where grease would go in the reel. I'm probably going to get some Cal's, but until then I am using reel butter at this time. Am I correct to assume that you guys would suggest go with dry drags rather than using this grease?
Jim
On the other hand, I would go dry unless the reel is being fished actively in saltwater. You'll have to clean the reel butter off/out of them before the Cal's otherwise.
thx guys. I have some cal's on the way so will use that for the drags, and will continue to use the reel butter for the rest. I usually fish freshwater, but love fishing the slop so my reels get pretty cruddy really quick. That green slimey stuff gets in there as good as salt and sand and want to keep them running as best I can.
thx again. this site is great.
Jim
I have used both Cal's and Reel butter , I do tinker quite a bit , I have found that the butter seems to almost break down and evaporate on reels that take beatings , reels used for Muskie fishing that is , so I went and got Cal's , it hold up very well and does stay put in all types of conditions , the same cannot be said for the butter , just my opinion not the law ...
May have been asked previously. Do any of you grease (Cal's) non carbon fiber washers? Let's just say you kept the Dartanium washers in your old Torium for a bit before you ordered Carbontex. Is there any harm in greasing those with Cal's or could it have adverse effects?
Quote from: maine guide on October 03, 2017, 12:34:12 AM
May have been asked previously. Do any of you grease (Cal's) non carbon fiber washers? Let's just say you kept the Dartanium washers in your old Torium for a bit before you ordered Carbontex. Is there any harm in greasing those with Cal's or could it have adverse effects?
I grease all the things. Felt, Dartanium, even teeny tiny baitrunner drag washers.
So I have a question? Does anyone have experience with greasing or not greasing penns asbestos drag washers with Cal's drag Grease. The old catalogs recommend using them dry. I just picked up a 349 h and plan on using it fishing for Wahoo and some bottom fishing the real is decent with very little wear ( has not been used in a very long time) and the drags are in good shape and as most know parts are difficult to find for this reel. Thought about converting it to HT 100 but now is the time for good wahoo and wanted to keep it original as possible with the three stack drag if they made HT 100 in the exact size I would go with that option but they don't Thanks for any advice
Don't grease or oil asbestos drag washers. They are the same material that was used in old style drum brakes on your car. Do you know what happens if you got grease or oil on your drum brakes or they got wet?? ;D Rudy
You should be ok with those drags for bottom fishing but not for wahoo Pretty sure you can find carbontex washers from someone on here. Well worth the investment
Dawn at Smoothdrag has the 5 plus 1 kits for the 349H - more drag and smoother $38 the last time I checked:
http://www.smoothdrag.com/price.html
Randy if you want to switch to CF drags you will have to go with either Smooth Drag set up which is a complete 5 washer setup or you could use 113h washers which are a little smaller on the outer diameter & use a 113h gear sleeve. Also you will need one more 349h eared washer & one keyed 349h eared washer. The simplest way is to just call Dawn for the complete setup. Rudy
Quote from: RowdyW on November 30, 2017, 02:33:57 PM
Don't grease or oil asbestos drag washers. They are the same material that was used in old style drum brakes on your car. Do you know what happens if you got grease or oil on your drum brakes or they got wet?? ;D Rudy
You make a great point. I have a 65 Mustang that had 4 wheel drum brakes on it and it tends to flood a lot in South Florida got them wet one time and could not stop push that pedal as hard as I could LOL. On another note I've seen rear axle seals leak axel oil on the brake drums and completely soak them funny thing is the car or truck still stops pretty good but it does soak into the shoes material and makes it sort of disintegrate and swell also the wet shoes don't stop as smooth makes it kind of grabby also causing a noise when braking which is usually the first indication your drums have oil on them.
Quote from: Vintage tackle man on November 30, 2017, 08:09:31 PM
Quote from: RowdyW on November 30, 2017, 02:33:57 PM
Don't grease or oil asbestos drag washers. They are the same material that was used in old style drum brakes on your car. Do you know what happens if you got grease or oil on your drum brakes or they got wet?? ;D Rudy
You make a great point. I have a 65 Mustang that had 4 wheel drum brakes on it and it tends to flood a lot in South Florida got them wet one time and could not stop push that pedal as hard as I could LOL. On another note I've seen rear axle seals leak axel oil on the brake drums and completely soak them funny thing is the car or truck still stops pretty good but it does soak into the shoes material and makes it sort of disintegrate and swell also the wet shoes don't stop as smooth makes it kind of grabby also causing a noise when braking which is usually the first indication your drums have oil on them.
I had a Volkswagon GTI, and one chilly Fall New England morning I was pulling out of the driveway onto a busy street, and putting light pressure on the brake pedal found that the brakes were not grabbing at all. I had to push really hard just to get the car to slow down. It was momentarily scary. I think there was frost on the pad and/or rotors and they were just gliding past eachother. Just happened that once and never again, thankfully.
Thanks all for the advice I think I will use the asbestos drags (dry) for now and eventually order the smooth drag kit in the future. I've also never used the Stock asbestos drags before kind of curious how they work compared to the newer drags of today. I'll see what it was like for the older fisherman of the day. ;D
Quote from: Vintage tackle man on December 07, 2017, 01:50:17 PM
Thanks all for the advice I think I will use the asbestos drags (dry) for now and eventually order the smooth drag kit in the future. I've also never used the Stock asbestos drags before kind of curious how they work compared to the newer drags of today. I'll see what it was like for the older fisherman of the day. ;D
You may be very surprised at what you find... Jeff
Just get Dawn's drag set - grease em with Cals you are good to go :) And no I don't get commission just saying ;)
Quote from: Tiddlerbasher on February 02, 2018, 01:16:41 AM
Just get Dawn's drag set - grease em with Cals you are good to go :) And no I don't get commission just saying ;)
The first thing I replace on a 349 is the drag stack, the old 3 asbestos drags ok when dry but a 5 greased CF washer stack is stronger, smoother and never fails.
FYI, I cut the 349 washers for Dawn.
My Avet Pro EXW 50 actually advertises their Titanium Disc and DRY brake system. it is very smooth. when it comes time to service this reel should i grease this drag.
Am in no way doubting that it is better having greased drags normally and modern reels are greased drags , as in my Shimano Stella SW (2019), But as this Avet specifically mentions the dry drag system as a design point on this reel, am a bit wary of greasing them. Also they are bonded to the discs so is not a case of just replacing a bit of carbon should they not work correctly if greased.
Any experience with these 'Dry' drag systems
From AVET...
Do not over lubricate, as lube in the wrong places such as the drag surfaces can cause poor performance. Sparingly apply grease to high friction components like gear teeth, cam surfaces and clicker assembly. The spool bearings should be sparingly lubed with a high quality oil like Avet lube, with the excess bottle away to avoid flinging and contaminating the drag surface when the spool spines. The drag surface don't wear out on Avet reel, and only need replace in extreme cases. If the drag feels lees than perfect, a simple cleaning will refurbish it to like new performance. Remove the bearing from the spool, run the spool and carbon drag surface under warm tap water, with drop of dish washing soap and a tooth brush, vigorously scrub the carbon surface to remove any contaminates. Hold the spool under the warm tap water and continue scrubbing until the foam disappears and blot dry with a paper towel.
yup, avet stubbornly holds to that opinion. can't help it, or them. they're just gonna do what they're gonna do. :-\