Position of two new holes and two locating pins with one standard dog.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/20/3590_07_08_17_4_16_16_207721518.jpeg)
Area in red to be dremmled.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/20/3590_07_08_17_4_16_16_207752044.jpeg)
Three stainless steel dogs (one containing spring location pin) and one standard Penn dog (reference only).
(http://alantani.com/gallery/20/3590_07_08_17_4_16_16_207741780.jpeg)
New pins fitted and springs secured (temporary braid to prevent loss of springs.)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/20/3590_07_08_17_4_16_17_207761801.jpeg)
Stainless steel dogs in 'dual' mode.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/20/3590_07_08_17_4_16_17_207771270.jpeg)
Stainless steel dogs in 'alternating' mode to reduce handle/gear backlash.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/20/3590_07_08_17_4_16_16_20760399.jpeg)
Cheers, Tom
Great work Tom - that's top-notch.
Particularly like the dual and alternating options - class.
Cheers, Justin
Thanks for posting the pics Justin,I haven't got the hang of it yet. :-[
The dogs are 2mm/14swg 316 stainless steel.
The pinned dog is to locate the spring as Dremmeling the side plate removes the spring securing slot.
The three dogs are standard size except the the RHS dual dog which is about 2mm shorter.
I now need a fine thread stainless steel Sleeve to complete the job.
Excellent work Tom, I'm impressed!
Did you make the pins or did you pull them from another bridge?
Very clean job ;). I know that you're a great fisherman, but had no idea that you had that much talent with this stuff.....I now feel better about your reviews on that custom reel from the past ;).
Thanks for bringing it to us Tom, you definitely moved it up a notch.
Are those ss dogs Lee's?
Later buddy.
Sal
Very nice work.
Very nice. Bob
The Irish Gentleman has skills! I would love to do that especially with my ProGear 255 and 251s. Any more details on how you did it Tom? Would love to learn.
Nice work! What is the thread on the spring for? How did you get the locating pin on the dog? BTW, nice dogs!
You've raised the bar another notch. Thanks for the thread idea, too.
Thank's for the kind comments guys and a special "thank you" to Sal for starting so many of us on the double dog road.
Sal, the hinge pin was made from a brass wood screw in the drill press using medium and fine files.
One end was reduced in diameter in order to fit through the bridge and be peened (riveted) to secure.
The spring location pin was from a 3/32" dia (0.093in) stainless steel welding rod and had both ends slightly tapered,one to ease fitting the spring and the other to assist in fitting to the bridge (drive fit.) I formed a small groove on the pin in the drill press using a three square (triangular) needle file to help secure the spring on assembly.
The dogs were made from off cuts of 2mm, 316 stainless steel by drilling and using a 15-500 dog as a template. They were cut using a hacksaw and filed to shape.
One dog had a fine stainless steel pin (fish hook shank) fitted in order to retain the spring as the spring location groove was removed when Dremmeling the side plate.
A special dog having a 90 degree spring location hook would also suffice.
Lee, I found the small springs very difficult to handle and tethered them by passing a length of braid through the spring and forming a loop. They were easier to handle/find this way. Believe me they are even worse to handle than the 14-99's ;)
Re the pin. It's 1/16"dia,drilled through the dog and pressed it in,fiddly!.
Bryan, I am not familiar with the ProGear reels but I am sure you could carry out a similar mod on them.
I think it is important that the second dog hinge pin should be positioned exactly opposite the existing one on the bridge ie in the "opposite hand" position or where it would be on a left hand reel.
The spring location pin position can then be established with the new dog in position.
A SPRING LEASH!!!!! Very good idea!
My first dogs were hand made but I have a bandsaw and belt grinder, yours were time consuming and they look V good. I have a modified 113H dog with a "pin" cut in them drawn up for the second dog but haven't cut any yet.
gd stuff irish.
Great work, and good to see solid basic engineering handskills and hand tools at work. Sometimes I think we shy away from "fettling" things the old fashioned way, because we don't have the CNC, the lathe, the milling machine, etc. - but here's an example of what can be done with skill, files and patience.
Well done.
Simon.
Tom,
My Pro Gears are the size of squidders with the guts of Jigmasters. That is why I'm excited for this.
Bryan
Quote from: Bryan Young on December 10, 2012, 07:44:58 AM
Tom,
My Pro Gears are the size of squidders with the guts of Jigmasters. That is why I'm excited for this.
Bryan
Bryan, if the guts are similar to the Jigmasters you should have no trouble with the conversion. A friend with a lathe would be a big help with the hinge pin if you were considering converting more than one reel. The standard Penn 15-500 dogs will suffice but you need to ensure that the spring is prevented from slipping off the dog when assembled. I am sure you will think of something. Pity to Dremmel those lovely aluminium side plates!
Tom.
Excelent Tom!!! :o very clever and well thought out work.Dual mode is very interesting.Thanks for sharing your abilities.
Richard
The pivot hole can be cut, drilled or reamed to fit a standard shaft size if that helps.
Just noticed this on ebay. It looks like this part has dog holes for both RH and LH reels. Would make conversion to double dogs quite easy.
although a new spring pin location would be required and as Lee has just stated this is a a simple procedure as this pin is 3/32 in dia.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Penn-505HS-506HS-Jigmaster-reel-BRIDGE-WITH-SLEEVE-Part-3-505-NOS-New-USA-/121037225327?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c2e6
I think I have 3/32" brazing rod that the flux is falling off if anyone needs some pin material.
Yes the 505 comes dilled for right or left. The 3-505 will not work with the 500 plate and vice versa.
I have a feeling this has been asked before, anyway here goes...
What is the advantage to upgrading a reel to double dogs? ???
In my case I wanted to reduce the backlash when using a larger/heavier handle (24-56) on a Jigmaster.
With the dogs in alternating mode backlash is reduced by 50%.
For heavier applications, double dogs in dual mode are preferred as they help share the load which is normally taken by a single dog.
Most high end reels now have multiple dogs fitted.
Alternating dogs should also extend the life of the dogs by 50%, a win-win situation.
Ciao Sal,how ya doin'? would you explain the reason why alternating dogs should also extend the life of the dogs?.I think you're right ,but only the part of the dog that face the gear sleeve tooth when it clicks and avoids the reverse movement(when one dog is on the other is out).But the sliding wear of both dogs are the same.What about the wear of the gear sleeve teeth? Two dogs may produce a doble wear of the teeth.Am I wrong?
Ci sentiamo,
Riccardo
Salve Riccardo.
On the alternating dogs, only one dog engages at a time. With every click of the sleeve the opposite dog will engage, this is how I came up with 50%. You're right about both having the sliding wear, but I believe that's minimal
If you go with Alan's sleeve and Lee's dogs, you won't need to worry about any wear.
Buon Natale, paesa'
Sal
Spotty or anyone else who may not know,
In most star drag reels, the dog (or AR bearing) is the part of the reel that takes the pressure of the fish. A fish pulls on the spool which works through the pinion and main gear to put pressure on the drag disks which transfer energy to the gear sleeve. The gear sleeve needs something to prevent it from spinning backwards and letting line out with no drag, that something is the dog. The gear sleeve has a ratchet on the bottom that the dog works against in a similar manner to a pawl in a ratchet wrench. The dog is what allows the fish to put pressure against the drag disks and make them work.
Alternating dogs have been covered, but a little more can be said about double dogs. When a reel with a single dog has pressure put against it, the single point of pressure at the dog will cause the gear sleeve to tilt. If enough pressure is applied this tilting can allow the main gear to rub against the side plate and cause damage and causes friction on the bridge post. Adding a second dog reduces this tendency to tilt, reducing wear and friction. The closer to 180 degrees the dogs are opposed the better the reduction in wear and friction. It is conceivable that in a reel with a big drag and a small sleeve post, such as a Penn 60, the friction may turn to binding and eventual failure, which is why I think double simultaneous dogging little reels is just as important as double dogging big reels, especially if the dogs are 180 degrees apart.
Ron
Ron, I don't believe that there is anyone here that doesn't understand how these reels work, it's a pretty simple concept.
I do agree with you about keeping everything square with the double dogs when reel is under pressure. I also mentioned this over by the "113H Reel Tank" about 3 months ago, on page #25.
Sal
Ron,you make a very good point re positioning the dogs 180 degrees apart. This is indeed the ideal position for simultaneous dogging and should be considered when upgrading our reels. Unfortunately the Penn design prevents this spacing and we shall have to settle for something less than perfect until a better solution comes along.
Gentleman that you for enlightening this ignorant man. Now, I think since rockfish season is about to close, I have my winter gear project for myself!
Thanks!
Quote from: Irish Jigger on December 12, 2012, 07:44:27 PM
Just noticed this on ebay. It looks like this part has dog holes for both RH and LH reels. Would make conversion to double dogs quite easy.
although a new spring pin location would be required and as Lee has just stated this is a a simple procedure as this pin is 3/32 in dia.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Penn-505HS-506HS-Jigmaster-reel-BRIDGE-WITH-SLEEVE-Part-3-505-NOS-New-USA-/121037225327?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c2e6
I think I have 3/32" brazing rod that the flux is falling off if anyone needs some pin material.
In reading this thread, I might try this out as a project. I noticed my progear bridge has extra holes already in it. Hmmm. I'm gonna give this a try.
Very nice! With the Stainless Sleeve and dogs that anti reverse will be indestructable.
Thank you for posting, I might consider trying to double dog my Jigmaster soon.
SNAPPERHEAD
It's quite a straight forward process guys.
Just remember a new hole to locate the second spring securing pin (3/32" dia) will be required even on Bridges having both sets of holes.
Irish Jigger,
Would it be possible to create a template for us on a regular sheet of paper that we could use to make template for laying out the holes like you did here?
If it were uploaded to the site here, we could print it on heavy paper, drill the hole in the paper and put it on the bridge for marking.
This is really nice stuff and having a template to replicate you sucess time and again would be priceless.
Come to think of it, if someone could make those for you on sheets of plastic that fit on the bridge, you could be rich just selling them.....
Thanks.
Jigmaster 501,
I will see what I can do in the way of a simple diagram re the hole positions.
The Dog locating pin hole is exactly opposite the existing Dog locating pin hole. Some Bridges have these holes in both sides for RH or LH reels so if you have one of these you are in luck.
Once you have this hole drilled, fit the second dog to engage with the sleeve.
Mark out the position for the spring location pin hole (same pitch as the two existing pins) so as the spring is in contact with the dog as shown in the Pics. The spring should contact the new dog as near as 90 degrees as possible and a little cut out or pin in the dog would prevent the spring from slipping (the cut out is an easier option than fitting a pin.)
The reason for the cut out or pin is because the spring securing channel in the Right Side Plate has been Dremeled out to clear the second dog.
You may have to make the two pins as I don't think they are available as spares. I made mine from brass screw nails on a drill press using a file.
I am thinking I am going to go with the alternating dog route- for what I will be doing with it I don't think the added strength is as important to me as the reduced back-play. Sure wish I could have both though.....
I want to try this as soon as my brother gives me his mini-lathe/milling machine. Next...how to hook it up to a computer to automate the grinding and cutting process.
Tom- when in dual mode, are both of your dogs "dropping" in at exact same time?
Joel.B- Yes both dogs kick in simultaneously. It may be necessary to file one dog slightly after the first dog engages the sleeve in order to have them work together and share the load.
Quote from: Irish Jigger on July 19, 2013, 10:39:59 PM
Joel.B- Yes both dogs kick in simultaneously. It may be necessary to file one dog slightly after the first dog engages the sleeve in order to have them work together and share the load.
Yes, I found this out....but I think exact placement of the posts for extra dog is really crucial here.......because of the angles of teeth on the sleeve and tips of dogs....getting the dogs to engage at same time is easy, getting them both to drop-in at exact same time and also engage equally not so easy.
I have a 112H that I'm going to double dog. I'm really not clear on the process. This discussion will help.
G'day fd,
Here's how Tom (Irish Jigger) approached it:
- http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=6405.0 (http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=6405.0)
I used the 'traditional' approach, but also fabricated a little cover for the spring:
- http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=3935.msg33136#msg33136 (http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=3935.msg33136#msg33136)
Tom's is the more elegant solution ;) ;D
Good luck, Justin
I finally decided to give Tom's (Irish Jigger) brilliant idea a shot. You have set the bar high on this one my friend ;)
(http://i1318.photobucket.com/albums/t646/pescatore2/parts/002_zps86f7637d.jpg) (http://s1318.photobucket.com/user/pescatore2/media/parts/002_zps86f7637d.jpg.html)
(http://i1318.photobucket.com/albums/t646/pescatore2/parts/004_zpsbe73d48b.jpg) (http://s1318.photobucket.com/user/pescatore2/media/parts/004_zpsbe73d48b.jpg.html)
Not as easy as you made it look, but I was able to get it done.
If I can do it, so can anyone else, so get cranking. ;D
Thanks again Tom, this one is one of my favorite.
Thanks to you, Alan, Bryan and Lee we now have a very nice 17lbs. reel . ;)
We now have:
The Surfmaster 100.................10lbs reel
The Jigmaster 501...................17lbs
The Tank................................25lbs
The super Tank.......................30lbs
I believe we have it all covered, but I'm sure we won't stop here ;) ;D
Sal
Sal,
Just wondering why you are fighing the 501 @ 17 lbs when you said the Jigmaster is smooth to 20? If you say it is 17, then it is 17. I'm just wondering why.
Ron
Quote from: noyb72 on August 11, 2013, 08:44:37 PM
Sal,
Just wondering why you are fighing the 501 @ 17 lbs when you said the Jigmaster is smooth to 20? If you say it is 17, then it is 17. I'm just wondering why.
Ron
;D ;D just being conservative Ron and trying to minimize on arguments with those that don't believe us ;D.
I got 22 at max with Bryan's washers and 29 with the hex, the pinion showed signs of failure at above 25lbs.
17 to 18 lbs is still a great improvement from 8lbs and if needed we know that we have a little more to get the job done ;)
I was conservative with the others as well, I got 30 max with the Tank and well over 40 lbs with the Super Tank.
Keep in mind these have been pushed to their limit and that's not where they should be fished at.
I still believe we did great.
Sal
Completely agree, fantastic bit of engineering. 17 pounds still means you could fish it with 60 pound line. Even with braid I'm not certain you could get 200 yards of it on that tiny spool. Great little reel for pitching into the rocks.
Ron
Quote from: noyb72 on August 11, 2013, 09:25:51 PM
Great little reel for pitching into the rocks.
Ron
So is a half a stick of dynamite. ;D ;D ;D
Yes, but when you bite down on a rock in the bass it HURTS!! ;D
Ron
Never had fish & chips? :D
That there was funny, I don't care who you are.
Ron
Rudy 8)
I double-dogged my 501. I did it differently than what I've seen posted so far. I started with a 5/8 ss washer .080 thick. My drill bits wouldn't touch it so I put a carbide bit in the dremel tool.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v332/targetdrone/20130817_101540_zps2031d4c9.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v332/targetdrone/20130818_010226_zps67881e1f.jpg)
I used a piece of .032 music wire for the spring. It sits in a groove in the back of the dog to keep it in place.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v332/targetdrone/20130819_013725_zps6751289b.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v332/targetdrone/20130819_013648_zps93d42e05.jpg)
I used a carbide end mill in the dremel to cut away the side plate.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v332/targetdrone/20130819_015522_zpse28d6021.jpg)
I am going out on a 3/4 day boat in San Diego on the 7th of Sept and will report back with how it went.
Quote from: Alto Mare on August 11, 2013, 05:50:28 PM
I finally decided to give Tom's (Irish Jigger) brilliant idea a shot. You have set the bar high on this one my friend ;)
Not as easy as you made it look, but I was able to get it done.
If I can do it, so can anyone else, so get cranking. ;D
Thanks again Tom, this one is one of my favorite.
Sal
Sal (and/or Tom), I have a question: Since you had to shorten the dog in the factory location, did that effect the spring throw? Did you have to use a longer spring? Or are your custom dogs made with an offset spring tab to make up for the difference? Or am I splitting hairs and it does not really matter?
Targetdrone, that's a cool solution! Can you tell us how you trapped the spring wire in the pin?
5/32 brass rod chucked into a drill and turned down using a dremel with a sanding drum attached. Then I slotted the end with a cutting wheel in the dremel and peened the brass after squeezing it with a visegrip. The wire seems a little stiffer than the stock spring. My few attempts at winding my own spring from the .009 and .014 music wire on hand left me unsatisfied. The wire I ended up using was from a Guillows Skeeter windup airplane's landing gear. It's not stainless, but I will keep it greased and check it after my trip. At least on the jigmaster it's easy to get to.
If I were to do it over I would make the spring mount either square or oval to make sure it will never rotate in the bridge.
Well, the project is almost complete. I've got this Jigmaster that I added Accurate plates and a frame too a few years ago. At the time I did the upgrade to the SS Newel 5:1 gears, SS yoke, smooth drags, but never did the SS gear sleeve and dog. I've fished it hard for the past 7 years with little maintenance, so I decided I'd double dog it and add the SS gear sleeve as well. The 4/0 thread got me thinking about doing the TANK conversion to my 113H, but I figured I'd start with an old friend first.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Oj74JLMfH8c/UhgJQMq_smI/AAAAAAAAAEo/Bo3GSGK7TKs/s800/P1000290.JPG)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-7ZhkPp519NY/UhgJLKzB-AI/AAAAAAAAAEM/RIysxUm0u-g/s800/P1000287.JPG)
Things did not look too good inside! Can you say corrosion?
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-zgdk2KRDt9M/UhgJdzfKQjI/AAAAAAAAAFw/6EGe6udVLZ4/s800/P1000299.JPG)
But my old friend cleaned up nicely. Here she is with the stud for the second dog already installed.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-XY5lCD7I89U/UhgJiQ6_HFI/AAAAAAAAAGI/lgBw6HEMdh8/s800/P1000302.JPG)
Here I was fitting the dogs to engage simultaneously. Note the layout for the spring retaining pin also.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-__Plw8ulNIc/UhgJpK89aLI/AAAAAAAAAGw/Q-q8vZsj8Ng/s800/P1000307.JPG)
The back side of the peened brass pin on the left.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-HvfLxwVA9vA/UhgJupUY2zI/AAAAAAAAAHI/TixXSFphg3k/s800/P1000310.JPG)
I decided I wanted a little more security on the dog springs, so I drilled the new SS dogs with a 3/64" bit and pressed in a bit of SS welding wire.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-maHRSUUJBHk/UhgJv6d2tEI/AAAAAAAAAHU/EVZBldxWn6I/s800/P1000311.JPG)
Tomorrow I head over to Ken's Custom Reel to pick up a couple of new dog springs and then I can put this baby back together. Oh, and I forgot to mention that I also picked up a set of Bryan's 5+1 drags. Can't wait to get out there and get after some Yellowtail and Tuna!
Many thanks to all the inspiration you all have provided in going after this project! It's almost as fun as fishing!
I am happy to report that operation JigMonster Dual Dog was a complete and total success. (That is, after I realized I'd put the yoke back in upside down. It is decidedly harder to engage and disengage with the sharp edges facing the eccentric jack!)
Here she is all put back together and ready to assemble.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-U0EKI_uzke8/UhkwbA0qmCI/AAAAAAAAAIA/jozOqkWiP2A/s800/P1000314.JPG)
And here's my baby ready to go.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-k94D-VToaqQ/UhkwcvpatEI/AAAAAAAAAII/FtfN_uCA4ig/s800/P1000316.JPG)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-3kqHVPF98r0/UhkwgL7tFfI/AAAAAAAAAIc/blnJ60x7yoc/s800/P1000319.JPG)
And maybe it's just me, but I sure love that sexy Newel gear set growl she has. Sounds good with that decisive dual dog CLICK she has too.
And Bryan's 5+1 drag set is Uber Smooth!
Man I can't wait to get out there and fish this thing again!
Now that's I've done the dual dog setup, I think I'm ready to tackle the 113H TANK conversion. Just need to start getting my parts in order.
Very nice job Andy, thanks for showing us different options. I do like the last much better.
Nice and clean work, way to go ;).
Sal
Thanks for your kind words Sal. It's only because of this board and people such as yourself that I even made the attempt! I do have a question for you; In one of your TANK threads, you used a Tib frame that didn't need the inner rings from the Senator. Is that a specialty frame? I'm planning to do the Yellowtail special with my 113HLW and would love to use that type of frame. I didn't see those listed on the Tiburon website.
Here you go:
http://www.tiburonfishingreels.com/penn-reels-and-newell-reels
Click on Senator, down below.
Quote from: bajaandy on August 24, 2013, 01:45:27 AM
so I decided I'd double dog it and add the SS gear sleeve as well.
Nice-looking job. What did you use for the post on the second dog?
Great job Andy - thanks for sharing!
Good luck out on the water.
Cheers, Justin
Quote from: BonitaBch on October 28, 2013, 02:49:41 PM
Quote from: bajaandy on August 24, 2013, 01:45:27 AM
so I decided I'd double dog it and add the SS gear sleeve as well.
Nice-looking job. What did you use for the post on the second dog?
I chucked a brass wood screw in the drill and ran it against the belt sander to get it down close to diameter, then used a hand file to turn it just a tad larger than the hole. I pressed it in and then peened the back side to lock it.
Thanks, I think I'll give that a try.
I'm digging up gold here!
I was wondering how do you guys support the bridge or retain the new post when peening it? It seems it would push through. And if I put something against the other end, won't it peen over the other end?
I'll find an old sideplate I don't care about to try my hand at Dremel work.
Sorry for the late reply Rancanfish, I just saw this. With the few posts I have installed, I drill a hole near the corner of a piece of flat steel plate, the same diameter of the post and slightly deeper than the post height to support the post and stop it from deforming. Tap the tight fitting post into place on the bridge then put the post in the hole and, with the bridge held flat on the steel plate, peen the back of the post. The end/top of the post gets beveled slightly in the base of the hole and can be flattened with a file. I use the corner of the piece of plate to help get access to the dog post and/or spring post locations. Sorry I don't have any photos to show how I have done it - next time.
P.S. I got the idea from this thread as well
Thank you.
Where did you get the post for the spring to double dog the jigmaster and has anyone tried to do a penn 505.