Reel Repair by Alan Tani

As the title says, I'm just trying this out to see if it might work.
I've been wanting to give this a shot, here are a couple of pictures:
(http://i.imgur.com/HjpYIfC.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/hY94TIB.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/hY94TIB.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/4lFKewa.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/4lFKewa.jpg)
I didn't use any fancy tools, just a dremel and a pair of scissors. The carbon fiber washers have been cut into  hexagon shape, very easy to do with scissors.
The washers fit in nice and tight, there is a good chance that these might work.
If they do, I will be trying it on my ss gears, or maybe Black Pearl could get his connection to make us some.
Just playing around with this stuff, enjoy!
Sal

hi   sal       very talented, your the best.   not that i would be attempting to try this, i would like if you showed a picture of the cutter you used with your dremel.   thanks    harryk

i will send you a #6-525 drag washer to look at.  it is very close. 

Sal,  I wish you lived next door.  You are a very talented man !!

John

Does anyone know the measurements of the 6-525 or similar siblings? Been wondering for a long time.

Diameters inside & out, over ears, ear width... All ways & directions.

.

Nice job Sal! I wonder what kind of drag you can get out of it now. I count 7 working  drag surfaces. Max about 35lbs? Bob                           

the #6-525 is larger in all respects, but it is still very close. 

Quote from: harryk3616 on February 23, 2013, 06:00:52 PM
hi   sal       very talented, your the best.   not that i would be attempting to try this, i would like if you showed a picture of the cutter you used with your dremel.   thanks    harryk

Hello harry, here are the bits that I used, they are Titanium Coated solid carbide tip. The bit on the left doesn't have a cutting edge at the base, that allowed me to get really close .
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/parsts%20an%20such/012-1.jpg)

Alan, thanks for the offer, but the 6-525 won't work, it is larger.
The 6-525 is what I used for marking, as you can see here
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/parsts%20an%20such/015-1.jpg)

Robert, the 6-525 is 33.30mm tip to tip on the ears, round part is 28.30. Comparing it to the 6-113H, tip to tip the 113H is 5.30mm smaller, the metal washer is 2mm smaller.
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/parsts%20an%20such/016-1.jpg)
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/parsts%20an%20such/013-1.jpg)

Quote from: Cone on February 24, 2013, 12:18:00 AM
Nice job Sal! I wonder what kind of drag you can get out of it now. I count 7 working  drag surfaces. Max about 35lbs? Bob                           

Thanks Bob and John.
Bob your estimate is just about right, this set up will generate around 30lb of drag.
I'm very excited about this, if the ears on the carbon washers can take that much pressure , I will be doing it to my 6/0 and 9/0.
I don't think we will be needing thinner washers, here I'm using the older thick metal washers and the CF are cut out of a  sheet
of 1 mm in thickness....still got room.
This is neat, I removed one washer and still get the 1+7 stack. Ifthis set up happens to have too much horse power,  one of the CF washers could be replaced with a metal washer.
I'm liking it, the only problem is that it took me 45minutes to do the gear, these are done freehand. Maybe doc could help us out with these :-\. The washers were cut in 5 minutes or so, I could do a much better job if I need to.
Sal

Sal, i realize too much drag is a bad thing but you don't have to use it all. It should be a lot smoother though. Good job. I've been wanting to do something similar to my 114h. I just haven't had the nerve to try it on the Penn ss gear in it. >:( Bob

That was smart! :)

Whether the 'ears' hold or not would have to be tested I suppose. Tie the line to a car and do some test runs? Please post pictures if you do :)

If they don't hold, I think there will just be a graceful degradation of the drag, as the CF washers start to turn the drag will just return to the original performance. Theoretically, worst case scenario is a 50% reduction of drag if they all go, right?

Paal

Very nice work Sal. I'm sure Dawn could provide CF drags that would suit your application. I guess Doc could come up with a nice little milling set up and have a batch of gears ready in no time. ;)
Keep up the good work,there's life in these old reels yet.

[quote aSal, i reauthor=Cone link=topic=6517.msg55511#msg55511 date=1361676183]
lize too much drag is a bad thing but you don't have to use it all. It should be a lot smoother though. Good job. I've been wanting to do something similar to my 114h. I just haven't had the nerve to try it on the Penn ss gear in it. >:( Bob
[/quote]
Just as a precaution, Bob. If you use the proper line this shouldn't be an issue.
The 4/0 is rated at 16lb, I'm not bringing up a discussion on Baja vs a customized 113H, again ::), I'm using it as an example. The Baja can handle 27lb, and heard of some pushing it to ove 30lb. I've checked  out the Baja, if that reel can handle that much, I don't see any issues with our customized 113H doing the same. The Baja has lots of better features, but some of the guts are beefier on the 113H, to me anyway. Not having a floating spool is also a plus....strength wise.
This needs to be tested, I don't expect any issues but you never know :-\
I believe this is a good start, there are many of these older favorite reels of ours out there, Bob.
I will also be testing this on one of my customized jigmaster, I already did one, but it's not as pretty as the one above, I didn't do any markings, I wasn't concearned about looks, just functionality. I will download a picture and post it.

Quote from: Irish Jigger on February 24, 2013, 11:24:16 AM
Very nice work Sal. I'm sure Dawn could provide CF drags that would suit your application. I guess Doc could come up with a nice little milling set up and have a batch of gears ready in no time. ;)
Keep up the good work,there's life in these old reels yet.

Thanks Tom.
That would be nice having them involved ;), I know Dawn might do it, she likes me ;D but I'm not so sure about doc :-\

Quote from: Alto Mare on February 24, 2013, 11:42:39 AM

Quote from: Irish Jigger on February 24, 2013, 11:24:16 AM
Very nice work Sal. I'm sure Dawn could provide CF drags that would suit your application. I guess Doc could come up with a nice little milling set up and have a batch of gears ready in no time. ;)
Keep up the good work,there's life in these old reels yet.

Thanks Tom.
That would be nice having them involved ;), but I'm not so sure about doc :-\

You never know Sal,speak nicely to him,he has the know how and the machinery. ;)

Sorry doc, I just realized you needed more info on the drag.
Here you go:

(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/parsts%20an%20such/007-4.jpg)

BTW, did anyone ever experience any issues with the drags with high settings on the Baja?
This one is rediculously thin, only .25mm :-\:
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/parsts%20an%20such/008-3.jpg)


Sal

Quote from: Irish Jigger on February 24, 2013, 12:43:52 PM

Quote from: Alto Mare on February 24, 2013, 11:42:39 AM

Quote from: Irish Jigger on February 24, 2013, 11:24:16 AM
Very nice work Sal. I'm sure Dawn could provide CF drags that would suit your application. I guess Doc could come up with a nice little milling set up and have a batch of gears ready in no time. ;)
Keep up the good work,there's life in these old reels yet.

Thanks Tom.
That would be nice having them involved ;), but I'm not so sure about doc :-\

You never know Sal,speak nicely to him,he has the know how and the machinery. ;)

Tom, doc is a nice guy, I sent him an email once or twice. This might be small peanuts to him, I was just happy that he looked at it.
I don't believe he has any limitations in his work, I believe he did one of these gears for the 9/0 in ss.
I'm always impressed when he teases us with a little something, every now and then.
At times, I wish I was his apprentice, I would love to play with some of his tools ;)
Later buddy.
Sal

A small drill press might make cutting the gear go faster.

Yes Lee, you're right, but you still need to keep setting the gear and make sure it doesn't move.
A lathe would do it with a push of a button... once the computer has been set.



Here are a couple of shot of the jigmaster's gear that I mentioned above:
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/parsts%20an%20such/004-3.jpg)
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/parsts%20an%20such/003-4.jpg)
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/parsts%20an%20such/001-5.jpg)
This one will need thinner washers, metal or CF. I need a hair more for the third CF to sit in flush.
It is now set up as the original with two washers,  giving it  three working surfaces.

Quote from: Alto Mare on February 24, 2013, 01:11:52 PM
Sorry doc, I just realized you needed more info on the drag.
Here you go:

(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/parsts%20an%20such/007-4.jpg)

BTW, did anyone ever experience any issues with the drags with high settings on the Baja?
This one is rediculously thin, only .25mm :-\:
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/parsts%20an%20such/008-3.jpg)
I missed one dimention:
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/parsts%20an%20such/010-4.jpg)
Sal

Quote from: Alto Mare on February 24, 2013, 11:50:51 AM
Wrong! If they did fail, all you would get is about 5%...if that. the full stack would spinning as one unit on the carbon washer at the bottom of the gear.
Later Paal and thank you!
Sal

Yes, I realize my mistake now. No eared metal washers, only keyed in your stack :)
Cheers,
Paal

Right man, thank you Sal for that; that is exactly what i was looking for, since it tells us the radius of the cutouts.

Okay, so now i know... what to do with that? Well, I think that at the time i started wondering about it, I was probably thinking of using it somehow in the 114H / 115 gear, which is of course a bit bigger. It probably had something to do with that earlier thread about the 114 and drag stacks and whatnot.

This one here though, this is the 6-525 washer, right? Penn uses a number of similar washers in a number of reels- Torque, Fathom, 525GS, Baja, Squall- but there seems to be some lack of clarity in what is what...some sources show the 6-TRQ40 with six tabs as a common part to most or all of them, but comparisons to recent exposés show them with twelve tabs for some of the same reels. Which makes me wonder if there is perhaps a difference in size as well between the 6N-525 and 6-TRQ40 , perhaps to your advantage.

(twelve tabs versus six is not of any great importance; i'm sure a pair of nail clippers are perfect for that job)

These ones you've cut here (hexagon, by the way, is a very good choice of shape, since it can be cut very easily & efficiently with straight lines or stamped) are made of the homogenous carbon fiber sheet as opposed to the HT-100 composite wafer sheet, is that right?

Other stuff:

QuoteA small drill press might make cutting the gear go faster.

It might, yes, but only if using an end mill or slot drill on a plunge cut. Using it as a mill will almost undoubtedly cause the chuck or spindle taper to loosen from its socket and subsequently wreak all sorts of havoc and cause bad words to be spoken. (ask me how i know...idareya)
But, were the workpiece mounted very rigidly and indexed properly, sure... Alan has an old Rexon drill press he calls a POJ, but that isn't quite true. Rexon made far better machines of that class than do many of similar type. That might work. But seriously, one of you guys must have a little mill/drill and a rotary table or dividing head?

Quote...I guess Doc could come up with a nice little milling set up and have a batch of gears ready in no time. ;)

Hmm, yeah, maybe... lemme think... an indexer and a little pot chuck or dedicated fixture of some kind; that can't be so hard. Worthy of some thought.

Quote...doc is a nice guy... This might be small peanuts to him... I don't believe he has any limitations in his work...I'm always impressed when he teases us with a little something, every now and then.

Um, yeah... that may be all true, but therein lies the rub... I don't intend to come off as a nasty curmudgeon or to tease folks, but yes, i am indeed somewhat reluctant to get too deeply involved in things of this nature, for several reasons. One of them being a certain degree of professionalism: I no longer have all the time in the world to do this. If i were to promise some folks (which would undoubtedly immediately swell to a whole bunch of folks) to make their gears, and then not have time/opportunity to finish as planned, there would be a whole bunch of disappointed folks out there. So, it is better to just say no.

Further, as i told Sal earlier, really, the thing is that after so many years of working endless hours for others in the name of honor, decency and a job well done, i'm just tired of it. Now i have a  regular income, and my (not unlimited) shop time is my own. So its better for me to indulge in reel projects of my own that interest me and have already waited far too long.

So, the small modifications i've posted here at times are not teases, but maybe more items of inspiration that might broaden the collective understanding a little bit. Sal took the hint, started thinking in a slightly different direction, and here we are...

Doc.

.

Quote from: Robert Janssen on February 24, 2013, 04:19:22 PM
It might, yes, but only if using an end mill or slot drill on a plunge cut. Using it as a mill will almost undoubtedly cause the chuck or spindle taper to loosen from its socket and subsequently wreak all sorts of havoc and cause bad words to be spoken. (ask me how i know...idareya)
But, were the workpiece mounted very rigidly and indexed properly, sure... Alan has an old Rexon drill press he calls a POJ, but that isn't quite true. Rexon made far better machines of that class than do many of similar type. That might work. But seriously, one of you guys must have a little mill/drill and a rotary table or dividing head?

For the person that can not justify owning a mill using the drill table and one of the dremel bits and hand feeding the work would be faster/easier.  I need a way to index with the mill I have access to.

Would it be practical to make a simple indexing fixture using the Penn pinion to index the Jigmaster gear which conveniently has a 4:1 ratio?
Using such a fixture on the drill press with a slot drill or end mill as the Doc says would make short work of slotting the standard  brass Jigmaster gear.

i've enjoyed reading this thread immensely!  i wish i had the free time to jump in and help!   ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

I just realized tha the 6-525 gets closer to the 5-114H (6/0) gear than the 5-113H (4/0) gear
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/parsts%20an%20such/011-2.jpg)
Yes, I'm getting more comfortable with the dremel. This time it only took 15 minutes
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/parsts%20an%20such/012-2.jpg)
The 6-525 is a little smaller, about 1mm, but the ears are tight
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/parsts%20an%20such/013-2.jpg)
We're able to put (5) CF washers in this one, using the thicker metal washers,of course more if you use the thinner metal
Sal

Keta, yes, i can see how it would at least be a lot more practical than Dremeling it. A normal drill press usually maxes at around 3000 rpm, which is nowhere near what a Dremel does, but it would still be much steadier and more comfortable. Of course i realize not everybody has a milling machine at home, but i seem to recall someone else here had some sort of such thing... i don't remember who though.

Irish Jigger, well, maybe- good thinking, but i think part of the thing is that the idea will soon be applied to other gears of other sizes, so one might as well go all the way and invent a little jig with maybe a bearing, six holes and a pin or something.

However, even that would be sort of a compromise, since hexagonal objects don't really fit round slots anyways. So it would be better to make a 120* vee notching tool, or a punch to make drag washers that fit perfectly, (in several sizes of course) or start manufacturing those hexagonal cartridge adapters like i posted a while back... and so on.

It gets out of hand quite quickly. Which goes to show, that maybe Sal and a Dremel are a pretty good team anyway...

.

Oh, look at that willya... Alto Mare has been busy while i was typing. Yup, that's what i was after when i did that 9/0 gear. Would've fit very nicely.

I see now though, that the wall on the gear is getting scary thin. Maybe you could trim the tabs a little bit, use a smaller Dremel bit and get a slightly tighter fit?

Or maybe we could invent a method in the future to square off the tabs and slots, make them similar to clutch rings, or Everol or Duel drag washers?

Well, any way is a good way... Sometimes done is better than perfect.

.

My thoughts exactly. I'm not that concearned about the gear itself, I'm more concearned about the ears. There isn't much CF material going into the cutouts :-\, but, I'm still not sure if it would be a problem if we make the CF washer a perfect fit.? Could we attach a piece on the inside wall? I'm not sure how we would attach it though. This will beef up that area that supports the ears and the 6-525 would be perfect. BTW the space now is a little more than 1mm.
Hey, this is the beginning,I'm sure we will come up with something.
Definitely worth giving it a shot.... if you ask me.

you know, i could see the gear teeth collapsing at that thin spot.  that's the problem that accurate was having with their original two speed boss gears.  

Well, I'm going to listen to you and Doc, Alan. You guy know way more than I will ever learn.
How about if we reverse their design and go with something like this
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/parsts%20an%20such/015-2.jpg)
We could use some brass rods or ss, depending on the gear.
The metal washer would need to be smaller, but since we could probably foit (10) washers in the 5-114H, that wouldn't be an issue.
Just a thought :-\

Meh... Not to dis you Sal, but i tried that or something similar like fifteen years ago. Wasn't worth the effort.

Really, I don't see anything difficult about making a square-slotted castle cartridge that would be soldered or screwed in place and ensure a nice fit.

Two problems though...

1) it would probably be me who has to do it
2) it would be about the same as a drop-in hexagon cartridge, which is pretty much where we started. Of course, there are ready made drag washers for it; thats nice

Has anybody yet had a chance to look at a 6-TRQ40 for comparison?

.

Doc, please excuse my drawing. Do you mean something like this? I'm showing a square, simply because it is easier to draw ::). Hexagon would keep the washers at a nice size.
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/parsts%20an%20such/017-1.jpg)

I drew something similar and was trying to get someone to make me one out of ss. Mine was just an extension of the gear wall, so we could add more washers, but then George came up with a great idea about using thinner washers, I believe he's able to place (7) washers in the stack, so I let this one go. Maybe we might have to go that way, but it's nice to explore.
If these get made, do you think they will need to be secured? I'm thinking they can just slide in the groves...if made tight.
Sal

Alan and Doc, I just measured the gear  thickness  at the base and was surprised to see that it is 4.5mm. This tells us that a little more than half of the gear teeth from the bottom are solid. Is this still a concearn?

The notched area on the baja is also paper thin, but that one is ss. That's one nice looking gear, almost as good as mine ;D

I was considering making an insert myself. I wanted to try to make it and then use it as a form for casting the insert out of aluminum. I have a small lathe and a mill but no rotary table. I considered using a bad gear as a mold with a piece of hex stock or similar on the interior and pouring aluminum in the space. I haven't had the time yet to try it yet. A cast insert would be a lot easier to make. At least thats my thinking. Bob

Yes Bob, I remember me and you talking about it. Sorry, I forgot to mention it. My only concearn with that was with you using aluminum, but I'm not sure if that would be a problem or not.
Sal

OK, I just checked the 5-113H ss gears
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/parsts%20an%20such/021.jpg)
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/parsts%20an%20such/022.jpg)
On the left I have the Newell , in the center the Baja and on the right the Accurate.
There is planty of meat by the teeth, what I've been doing above should work with these without any issues, no inserts needed.
The Newell is very similar to the Baja, the Accurate has a little more meat by that area.
Yes, I will be trying it on these, unless Doc feels bad for me and volunteers ;D
So, I just wanted to mention that the six groves will work on the ss gears that I'm showing.
Sal

Alto Mare, would it be possible to make a bushing for the center hole in the 113hn main gear and then use that whole gearset in a 113h??  And.. I agree with Alan that this has been an interesting thread to read. Thanks for posting this creative thinking..

Thanks Sal, I may try this if I can get up the nerve to mill the slots in my ss gears. I was going to at least put a 7 + 1 drag in the 114h but I do like the idea of keyed drag washers. If it doesn't work out I can blame you.  ;D  just kidding, I take responsibility for what I do and realize these reels and myself have limits. Bob

Bob, don't do anything to the 5-114H, well except for the casting, I would love to see how that turns out.
I don't see any issues milling the slots to the  5-113H. If you're worried about srewing up the gear, don't do it .
If you're doing it freehand as I did, you need to be relaxed and not care if it doesn't work out.

Doraboden, sorry, I need more explanation :-\

Quote from: Alto Mare
Doc, please excuse my drawing. Do you mean something like this? I'm showing a square, simply because it is easier to draw ::). Hexagon would keep the washers at a nice size.

Almost. In the first instance I meant this

(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d165/DrRob101/bild-24-1.jpg)

And in the second instance i meant this-- this would allow one to trim the tabs on a round-tabbed drag washer (ie 6-525) to a square shape and give full support on edges and sides, more like a square spline profile.

Imagine a cylinder with an outside diameter equal to the inside diameter of the main gear, and an inside diameter equal to that of the drag washer. So, wall thickness a bit more than 1 mm then. Cut six slots through the wall, drop it into the main gear and fix in place.

(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d165/DrRob101/bild_zpse2a4c4aa.jpg)


Doradoben, no- I suggested someone should follow up on this sort of thing last summer sometime; i don't think they ever did. In the case of the 113HN specifically, no- the pinion is different.

.

I like the hex sleeve. Thanks for posting the photo...

Hello Doc, Both pieces make sense to me, but I really like the hexagon shaped one. You do some beautiful work Doc.
Are those two pins glued, I know it's probably easier said than done, but wouldn't it be better to mill them as one unit?
I relly like the design and there shouldn't be any reason to secure it in place, we would utilize the two existing tabs on the gear.
Doc, did you read my other question above, about the wall at the bottom of the 114H gear being 4.5mm thick. Do you believe this will be a problem using one of the gear than I customzed? The bottom half of the  teeth are solid.
Thank you!
Sal
Again, these upgrade would be for some gears, the 113h ss should be ok as is to work with.
I wish i could see a picture of the two speed boss gears, just to compare things.

This could be water cut.

(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d165/DrRob101/bild-24-1.jpg)

QuoteThis could be water cut.

Yes, I considered that too. Not so sure how it would turn out. Waterjetting usually stays within 0.1 mm or so, but can leave rough edges and diverge from true 90* cuts, but maybe that can be adjusted. Waterjet + tumbling would help. Or laser cut it? It doesn't need to be perfect, but some degree of precision would be nice. Water or laser would also make it easy to do say, a dodegon as shown in that earlier thread. I mean, if we're gonna do it, might as well go all the way, right?

But, yes-- that would be a very good method of manufacture; far better than milling or broaching.

Quote
Are those two pins glued, I know it's probably easier said than done, but wouldn't it be better to mill them as one unit?

No, brazed. Turned the od on the lathe, did the hex and two opposing slots on the mill and rotab. Brazed the pins and trimmed them to length last. Fits very nicely.

(some of y'all might be able to do something similar at home. Now, where would you find something cylindrical on the outside, and hex on the inside? Come on people... think.)

Quote...wouldn't it be better to mill them as one unit?

Meh... lotta work that way. Need some dedicated tooling, lotta flippin' around... But an extruded profile on the other hand- NOW we're talkin'. That beats all.

Quote...other question above, about the wall at the bottom of the 114H gear being 4.5mm thick. Do you believe this will be a problem using one of the gear than I customzed? The bottom half of the  teeth are solid.

Dunno. Really, you could maybe cut right through the whole wall without ill effect. Oh, idunno... I just like clean things. Do as you like.



.

Cylindrical on the outside and hex on the inside==a socket wrench/ratchet, 3/4" or 13/16" might work for a 4/0 main gear. Or maybe even a larger size by shaving down the outside of the socket.

John

Very clever John, it couldn't be anything else :-\ . Good job!

Doc, you're full of surprises........I Like it , keep it up  ;).

Sal, I'm very impressed!

This has been a most interesting thread. If there are EDM shops in your area, Inserts could be wire cut both outside, with lugs or whatever, and inside features of almost any shape. As well, a die sinker could burn hex shapes directly to the inside of gears, regardless of metal. Just another idea in an already well thought out project.
Charlie

Here I'm showing the 5-113H Newell 4:1 SS gear
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/parsts%20an%20such/005-3.jpg)
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/parsts%20an%20such/002-7.jpg)
As you can see it can be done freehand by using a dremel. However,  I do not recommend anyone to do so.
These gears are extremely hard, it's a constant battle trying to keep the bit from bouncing around.

Doc,nice insert, well designed and made.
Sal, you have the patience of Job, very impressive work on that Newell SS gear.

A lot of of really interesting stuff here, I like the idea of the hex insert, if it was made to the size of a commonly available nut cutting or grinding CF washers accuratly would be a breeze.

Great thread Sal (and Doc), really enjoying this one ;) ;D
Thanks lads.

Alan, I just received the 6-525 washer that you sent, thank you for always being there for us, I appreciate it.
Sal

Very impressive work Sall.Keep it coming.

I'm back ;D.
Ok I decided to put these washers to a little test, this is what I came up with:
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/parsts%20an%20such/004-4.jpg)
The hexagon washers failed within 6lb of pressure, no drag what so ever.
the washer under the gear didn't add anything to the drag, along with the first washer at the bottom of the stack.
That washer at the bottom did keep its shape, but useless.
Doc's sleeve will work nicely with the hexagon drags...that's why he's the doctor and I'm just a patient ;D

I took the testing outdoors, didn't feel like repairing the ceiling.
i decided to use a heavy rod for the test
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/parsts%20an%20such/023.jpg)
made a little contraption by the tree house
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/parsts%20an%20such/019-1.jpg)
placed three bricks in a bucket
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/parsts%20an%20such/010-5.jpg)
and lifted the bucket by turning the handle, if some of you think that this is an esy task, give it a shot
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/parsts%20an%20such/016-2.jpg)
I'm trying to show how much that heavy rod got bent
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/parsts%20an%20such/015-3.jpg)
spring scale is spot on with the digital scale
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/parsts%20an%20such/025-1.jpg)
I also did a pulling test and the 40lb line gave up at around 24lb
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/parsts%20an%20such/028-1.jpg)
checked the gears and everything else, I'm not sure if you can see how much Cal's got squeezed out by the pressure
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/parsts%20an%20such/029.jpg)
these drags held up fine on this one
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/parsts%20an%20such/030.jpg)

My conclusion is that if you get as close as possible to the shape of the gear cutouts, you should be fine.
I'm happy with the results, I do want to mention that the handle nut was resisting as I was trying to unscrew it, I was able to unscrew it with my fingers prior to the test. This is telling me that there is a lot of stress there, but didn't see any imperfections with the tip of brass sleeve. Nothing that a ss sleeve can't fix ;)
Sal

Good info Sal. Your our mad scientist. ;) Bob

Keep up the good work Sal,nothing ventured, nothing gained.

I wanted to get to the max drags on these washers, so I put everything back together and added some heavy line.
Went back to my spot and this is what i got:
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/parsts%20an%20such/001-8.jpg)
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/parsts%20an%20such/002-9.jpg)
With the star almost all the way tight, I got 35lb. I want to mention that this test is done by bending the rod by pulling down on the line, not by pulling straight out. I did try by pulling straight out and I got almost 50lb. This is not accurate, you need to get that rod to bend.
I was amazed to see that just moving the star a hair more from that setting, it would gane an additional 5lb, but  I wasn't able to make the spool go around, just a quarter of a turn.
It is safe to say that this reel with the 1+4 washers will give you 35lb of max drags, yes I was able to make the spool go around a couple of times. I'm not sure how it will handle on the water, but can't wait to give it a shot.
I wouldn't go with this set up without a one piece frame, ss dogs and ss sleeve. The reel tested had the double dogs, but not ss.
I hope this will be of some interest, the guys that came up with this design made me a believer.
They were able to remove one washer and almost double up on the drags...not bad.
Enjoy! Sal

Dominick, you need to send the Tank back to me, I'll pay for all shipping costs.
I need to put the groved ss gears in there, and send it right back to you.
Sal

Sal, your an artist with the dremel. I'm really thinking of going back in on my 113H and doing the same. You are an inspiration. Keep the ideas coming. Is it possible to fit the fiber washer from the baja special if dremeled correctly?
Bob

Sal, pretty soon I'm gonna be watching a pro shark tournament on the fishing network, and see some guy using your custom Penn tank for catching monster mako out of Cali (where the BIG mako roam).
Your amazing,
Dom

No artist Bob, just playing around with this stuff.
If you do have the brass gears, I'm going to recommend that you go ahead and give it a shot.
Brass gears are very easy to work with, ss is another story. I won't be doing another until I purchase a Foredom. I  have some nice bits, but could use a better tool. I just sold one of my brand new 12/0's to pick one up :'(, I'm personally very excited about these and will be doing it to a lot of my reels.
The fiber washers from the Baja are the ones that I use, they need to be trimmed to size.
I use a metal washer and hold it centered on the fiber washer, this allows me to trim for size, being careful not to take the tabs off. I would then trim the tabs to size.
This is a good thing. As far as drag capability is concerned, I believe we passed the baja's drags' capabilities and I'm only just using the thick metal washers. If I use the thinner washers, we could add two more fiber washers, but that might be too much :-\.
I wonder if Doc, Lee or anyone else would be interested in cutting the groves for us.
Sal

Dom, I'm still waiting for you to give it a shot on some of this stuff that we've been playing with. Come on buddy get with it ;)

Hey sal, I did a search on the foredom. What does this get you?? Is it that you can anchor it better thus more stability?? Let me know what you find out with this. I'm really interested in this. Maybe I could take the gears to a local machine shop and have them cut them using your diagrams. All just food for thought. Love the idea of the  tabs though.

Bob, the best solution is to let a machinist do it for us. About the Foredom, it isn't a great tool for this particular job, since it will still be done freehand, but much better than what I'm using now. I do not clamp the gear I hold it in my hands while I do the grinding. I understand that not all are comfortable using cutting tools that close to their fingers, I've been  shaping tiles and crown moldings for many years and it doesn't bother me. The foot pedal will also help with controlling the speed.
Lets keep in mind that this is just a test, just because the washers and gears held up to my test, it doesn't mean that they would out in the real world.
Alan mentioned that Accurate had issues with these on their two speed boss. I'm not an engineer, I've examined the Baja's gears and my ss gears very closely, I believe these will work.
On the 6/0 there is less material, it is a good idea to go with a sleeve as the one that  Doc designed.
That sleeve might also do it for the 4/0... if it's easier to do. Either way, we've got something here.
Sal

I think the only problem with an insert for the 4/0 would be less overall surface area. Anyway when I get a chance I have a machinist friend with only a six pack I might have him take a look. Small investment,big payoff. I'll let you know when I do.
Bob

QuoteHi Alan,

I haven't signed up on the forum yet, so I thought passing this suggestion through you to Sal (atlo mare) might be quicker and easier.  Sal has been experimenting with cutting extra grooves in the main gear to accomodate extra ears on the drag washers (similar to the newer Penn drags). In doing so, he eliminates the eared washers from the drag stack. 

My thought is that it may be easier to keep the eared washers, not modify the gear, and toss the slotted washers.  The carbon washers would then be round on the outside and slotted on the inside.  First thought is that these washers might need to be thicker or have a glass reinforced center for extra strength.  If that didn't do the trick, an extruded brass sleeve could be made to slide over the gear sleeve (inner shape slotted, outer shape hex or whatever is suitable) and the inside of the carbon washers would be cut to fit the shape of the sleeve. (Eared washers might have to be drilled out to clear the hex sleeve in that case).  Just a thought.  Thanks, Steve


PS:  Also thought you might be interested in the $1.69  inflator needle and brass adapter kit I found that might work for grease guns:  https://www.forneyind.com/store/detail/727/blowguns/7037/air_line_blow_gun_accessories_inflator_needle_with_18_male_npt_adapter_carded/ 
(if this link didn't work right it was item #  75356 on www.forneyind.com)  I also found a one piece SS blunt needle luer adapter that would work on most syringes for people who don't need a dedicated grease gun.

QuoteI think the only problem with an insert for the 4/0 would be less overall surface area.

G'day Bob,
I used to make that assumption too but, as we're dealing with 'friction' rather than 'drag' (per se), surface area doesn't directly affect the reel's drag capacity.
It's kinda non-intuitive, but (with all other factors being equal) the drag produced is the product of the materials (ie greased CF and steel) and the force pushing them together.
Making the drag components smaller would actually increase the friction (ie drag pressure) generated by the force applied.
I'm no expert in physics, so others may want to chime in with further clarifications if needed.
Cheers, Justin

Sal, I've checked out the Foredom website.
http://www.foredom.net/  
Is this what you are talking about? Are you thinking of using one of their flexible shaft tools, or something else?

Another thing, if you can control the depth of the slots and not drill into the bottom of the gear, then you won't need an eared CF washer at the bottom of the drag stack.  A standard CF washer could instead be used and the rest of the stack would have a metal, eared CF, metal, eared CF, and so on.  However, I'm not sure if my suggestion offers any real advantage.

Quote from: alantani on March 03, 2013, 09:59:52 PM

QuoteHi Alan,

I haven't signed up on the forum yet, so I thought passing this suggestion through you to Sal (atlo mare) might be quicker and easier.  Sal has been experimenting with cutting extra grooves in the main gear to accomodate extra ears on the drag washers (similar to the newer Penn drags). In doing so, he eliminates the eared washers from the drag stack. 

My thought is that it may be easier to keep the eared washers, not modify the gear, and toss the slotted washers.  The carbon washers would then be round on the outside and slotted on the inside.  First thought is that these washers might need to be thicker or have a glass reinforced center for extra strength.  If that didn't do the trick, an extruded brass sleeve could be made to slide over the gear sleeve (inner shape slotted, outer shape hex or whatever is suitable) and the inside of the carbon washers would be cut to fit the shape of the sleeve. (Eared washers might have to be drilled out to clear the hex sleeve in that case).  Just a thought.  Thanks, Steve


PS:  Also thought you might be interested in the $1.69  inflator needle and brass adapter kit I found that might work for grease guns:  https://www.forneyind.com/store/detail/727/blowguns/7037/air_line_blow_gun_accessories_inflator_needle_with_18_male_npt_adapter_carded/ 
(if this link didn't work right it was item #  75356 on www.forneyind.com)  I also found a one piece SS blunt needle luer adapter that would work on most syringes for people who don't need a dedicated grease gun.

Steve, thank you very much for your suggestion! Nice to see that I'm attracting non-members.
I understand what you're saying, I've also thought about something similar but gave up. I personally don't believe it would work. The reason is as you've mentioned above.The outer dimension of the gear is 1 7/8". The inner dimension is less than 1/2" by the slots. These washers, that I'm showing, generate over 35lb of pressure, I believe that's just too much for the 1/2" keyed fiber washer to handle. I understand that you've mentioned a thicker washer, but the stress would be at a very small area, by the flat sides of the sleeve.
You are more than welcome to give it a shot, that's what this is all about.
As of now, I'm very comfortable with the gears that I've grinded. The fiber washers don't look pretty, but I can get them cut much nicer if I had taken a bit more time.
I'm also thinking of tapering one of my gears to get a sharp edge so that I could punch some fiber washers or use pressure to do so .
Thanks again for chiming in. Come on board, you will like it here.
Sal

Quote from: George4741 on March 03, 2013, 10:33:00 PM
Sal, I've checked out the Foredom website.
http://www.foredom.net/ 
Is this what you are talking about? Are you thinking of using one of their flexible shaft tools, or something else?

Yes George that's it.
A friend recommended that's what I should be using for what I do.
I was using tools from Harbor Freight....worthless. I now have a dremel, it's ok, but it overheat badly. Can hardly hold it in my hand at times.

Sal, I was thinking that the punch idea is good. Only problem I see is your doing them by hand. The fit could be a problem. No control free handing the.. For me that is.

Bob, I'm not too concerned with the fiber washers, all you need is a little patience with those.
We need to get a machinist to make the groves for us. See what your local guy will say.
Six groves are easy to mark, or maybe use one of the baja's washers.
Sal

Steve, I was thinking about what you mentioned above and decided to give it a little test. Not for anything, just to see if it would actually work.
this is what I did:

Roughed up some metal keyed washers
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/parsts%20an%20such/002-10.jpg)
and sandwiched between two carbon fiber washers, using some good epoxy
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/parsts%20an%20such/006-4.jpg)
took the reel apart again and placed the sandwiched washers in to test.
by the way, when I opened the reel the second time, the washers with the tabs still looked good.
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/parsts%20an%20such/010-6.jpg)
Here is what I found.
By pulling the line out, I got exactly the same as I did with the groved gear 35lb.
What surprised me was that when I was trying to lift aroung 20lb by turning the handle, the reel couldn't do it.
I removed some weight from the bucket, the reel was only able to lift 10lb at max, while slipping a little.
I can only give you my results, but can't explain why to you, I'm not a Physicist.
Maybe Doc can chime in, he probably already did this test :-\
Keep in mind, this is something I rigged up by using what I had, I'm not 100% sure that it is accurate.
I just wanted to put it out there.

Personally, I'm liking the groves and Doc's sleeve a little more.

Sal

Quote from: BMITCH on March 03, 2013, 08:39:08 PM
I think the only problem with an insert for the 4/0 would be less overall surface area. Anyway when I get a chance I have a machinist friend with only a six pack I might have him take a look. Small investment,big payoff. I'll let you know when I do.
Bob

Still a very nice upgrade I think, because you gain much more area than you loose. An octagonal insert could give a tiny bit more area than the hexagon, because the keyed washer can be made a little bit larger. With a lathe I guess you could start with oversized keyed washers and tune them to a perfect fit inside the octagon. Not sure it would be worth the labor, though. I think it would be better to make sure the metal washers are perfectly flat. I have some stamped (is this the correct term?) washers for my Senator that are not very flat, and that will cost some area. I'd really like to do these upgrades, not to get more drag but to have less stress on the bridge, and perhaps even smoother drag :)

Paal

Quote from: Alto Mare on March 03, 2013, 05:03:28 PM
I wonder if Doc, Lee or anyone else would be interested in cutting the groves for us.
Sal

The mill I have access to is worn out and my machinist skills are poor.

These drags are new to me. I was reading something interesting about them, this isgood to know.
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/parsts%20an%20such/005-6.jpg)
The Versa-Drag allows anglers to pre-set a targeted drag range by rearranging the keyed metal washers and tabbed friction washers.
they provide a tremendous drag range regardless of  what line-class and drag setting you are fishing.

The versa drags are nice. Myself I would set mine heavy. I don't have to use it all. Thanks Sal for the post. Bob

Sal,
      Wouldn't we always want the heavy drag configuration and just adjust the drag lever/ star?
Thanks
Dom

Hey Dom, yes I would on mine also.
It is a good information though.
The options showing would help balance the reel, in some cases it would save the line or the reel itself.
A good example is in here up above. I was pulling on the 40lb line on a reel that generated over 35lb of drag and the line gave up at around 24lb of pressure, those numbers might change on the water, but I'm sure they would be close.
The other scenario would be that the drags are too strong for your reel. I like that one, I would love to have a fish destroy one of my customized 4/0 ;).
Later buddy.
Sal

I gotcha! I think the line, hook, or something else would give out before the "TANK" ;)

Hello, I,m a newby to forum stuff, but got hipnotized with the drag washers in the post. and got questions. first why dont the stock penn reels come this way, maybee the newer ones do, but I don,t know? and what kind of drag would you get with the stock penn 5 stack of carbon fibers with the round outside dia.???? and does the stock one spin with a metal disk on each side of it?  seems like its just a sandwich in there adding friction to each side,  and does the eared drag washer add more to the efficiency of each drag plate? kinda seems like it would work better, like most lever drags with multiple plates. example 16II Tiagra is sorta that way.   I would like to hear from people in their ideas.....but makes hot rodding what it is. waiting gst.........

I may be missing something, but on the drags epoxied to the metal washers, you no longer get 2 sliding faces on each drag washer which I though was the whole point of making "ears" on them and removing the eared metal washers.  Maybe I am a bit slow on the uptake?

On another note - losing the outer area of the drags with the hex insert seems like it could easily offset what you gain.  Due to increase surface area coupled with increased leverage on the outer edge, if you lose 20% or your radius with a smaller metal drag plate, you have lost about 50% or your drag, by my simple calculations (holding mu and force at 1 for simplicity):

(http://i844.photobucket.com/albums/ab10/wolvieweb/drag2.gif)


So you got 2 faces, but lost half your surface area with the reduced diameter, so you have no net gain.
There are folks on the board who do these things for a living and have much greater expertise than me, however, who may point out my error(s), but if this is true, the drilling of the main gear to match a baja style washer seems the preferable solution.

I assume the Baja`s gear sleeve and bridge is not a drop in to the 113h????? how much modification would that take?????

Quote from: basto on March 22, 2013, 08:39:15 PM
I assume the Baja`s gear sleeve and bridge is not a drop in to the 113h????? how much modification would that take?????

There are some of us that might say why?
the Baja already comes with all the bells and wistles and I don't believe there is any more room for upgrades.. The max drag on the Baja is at 27lb .
Not getting in a debate here, again ::). The Baja is good for what its designed for and so is the 113h.

It might be hard for some to believe it, but I know that I'm able to get more drags out of my 113H and as you can see here, we're no way done with the upgrades.
I forgot to mention that last week  I did a test on rolling weight. I placed (9)  bricks in a wagon (bricks and wagon = 75lb) and reeled it in with the same reel that I tested above. I kept adding bricks gradually,75lb was the most I could go, to get the wagon to roll to me.
I had the scale on the line and it showed 28lb.
The only issue I had was with the stock handle, not easy to turn it with that much pressure. I'm glad I upgraded all of my reels with a nice ss handle.
I'm sure that some of you have wagons, if you think that this test is easy, give it a shot and report back.
washers and gear did just fine, by the way.
Sal

Sal:  I got the wagon out, but I had no bricks.  I asked the wife to sit in the wagon while I tested the drags.  I could not budge her.  My question is should my wife go on a diet or should I tighten the drag?  ;) Dominick

Just imagine if someone made a star drag reel with an extra drag on the left side of the reel. You would have a reel with the simplicity of a star drag without all the problems of pinion bearing failure that levers have and it would rival the drag output of a twin drag lever reel like Accurate or Jigging Master. The asthetics would be interesting! 

Quote from: Pescachaser on March 22, 2013, 10:24:09 PM
Sal:  I got the wagon out, but I had no bricks.  I asked the wife to sit in the wagon while I tested the drags.  I could not budge her.  My question is should my wife go on a diet or should I tighten the drag?  ;) Dominick

If you know what's good for you, keep your mouth shot and tighten the drag ;)  ;D.
by the way, the test is done by just turning the handle, not by lifting and working the rod.

Dominick

Do you have a death wish?  I put my foot in my mouth everyday but you beat me.

Mike

Quote from: Pescachaser on March 22, 2013, 10:24:09 PM
Sal:  I got the wagon out, but I had no bricks.  I asked the wife to sit in the wagon while I tested the drags.  I could not budge her.  My question is should my wife go on a diet or should I tighten the drag?  ;) Dominick

Dominick, It didn't happen without pics. I'm running up the bs flag on this one.  ;) You don't look suicidal.
Bob

pesca
tell her to go on a diet    >:(

Quote from: basto on March 22, 2013, 10:44:34 PM
Just imagine if someone made a star drag reel with an extra drag on the left side of the reel.... The asthetics would be interesting! 

Yup. Thusly:

(http://www.antiquefishingreels.com/photos/reels/big/MVC-061L.JPG)
J.A. Coxe Cradle Reel 20/0
Picture credit: Ed Pritchard

.

Wow!! I wonder how much that baby is worth.
Time to get to the drawing board Doc ;D.

Good thing you're a lawyer cause "you got some splainin' to do"
Dom

oh my   thats a beauty doc.
bent butt  rod and get both handles working.   ::)

I bet that would reel in some biguns with greased carbon fiber drags.

The Pfleuger company (and others) actually did produce such a reel.  Named the Atlapac, it had a star drag as is normally found, and on the left side was another drag that was actuated by a thumb lever. 
The lever was spring loaded, so it only worked when pressed.  The extra brake was configured like drum brakes on a car and could add considerable drag, in addition to what was already set by the star drag.  The Atlapac was the top of the line reel from the Pfleuger company.  My impression is that it came in sizes from about a 4/0 to 9/0 (actually larger than the Penn Senator 9/0).

Quote from: basto on March 22, 2013, 10:44:34 PM
Just imagine if someone made a star drag reel with an extra drag on the left side of the reel. You would have a reel with the simplicity of a star drag without all the problems of pinion bearing failure that levers have and it would rival the drag output of a twin drag lever reel like Accurate or Jigging Master. The asthetics would be interesting! 

   As a concerned citizen I was browsing in the experimenting with 113h drags discussions that I could find, I too wanted to hotrod a 113h to improve a great reel, I liked the idea if removing material inside the main gear  so drag washered ears could be used. Holding the gear and indexing, controlling depth seemed like the problems.... so I made a wood block, drilled a 1/2 '' hole thru, fitted an alumanum rod in the hole, it fit tightly, then put the pain gear down on it, that kept the lateral movement away, and make cheappy teeth that fit into some of the main gears teeth, this was a scrap of 1/8'' alumanum. and put a few screws tho the wood. held it very tightly, with no harm to the gear, this jig once made could be used many more times, and was free using scrap around the shop...

  If people are interested contact Alan Tani and ask him to show whatever pictures on the forum, or maybe his pc?  anyway I will send him my pictures of this and how simple it is to then mill out the grooves for eared washered..  I too an a beginner at this and dont know how to send pictures to this site, so he'll have them.....gstours.....

Very nice gstours, I'm looking forward to see what you've come up with. Thank you!
By the way, the tungsten carbite bur bits that I use do not cut skin, just like the full diamond rim on a wet saw. These don't cut anything that has flexability.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=can%20a%20bur%20carbide%20bit%20cut%20skin&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CC4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FBurr_(cutter)&ei=cAF9Ufi3LceR0QHTroGwBA&usg=AFQjCNEj8n9fknVF2sav_geVxgMuSX_VtA
That said, your idea is a much better solution.
Any tool will cut you if you're afraid of it.
Sal

Hello, and hopefully we can get feedback on the topic of increasing the drag capabilitys of the famous 113h..... Thanks also for all that have contributed to the need with ideas.....now I need the bottom line.....what have people been able to acheive drag weight wise? and has the drage been fish tested? and how?  I would like to hear from anyone that can add information on the subject including how that was acheived.....I too have tried with the idea of improving the range but meet failure each time...I can show pictures of the part modifications if that would help.... id like to learn from you people if possible......post your comments  ok???

Gstours, post the pictures. We LOVE those.
Bob

Quote from: BMITCH on May 12, 2013, 02:53:35 PM
Gstours, post the pictures. We LOVE those.
Bob

gstours, If you need help with them we can do the same thing as last time too.

Some pictures from Gstours:

(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/IMG_0398.jpg) (http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/pescatore1/media/IMG_0398.jpg.html)

I purchased some sheets from Erik
http://www.ebay.com/itm/120960145439?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649
and I wanted to test them and see if they hold up:
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/parsts%20an%20such/011-9.jpg) (http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/pescatore1/media/parsts%20an%20such/011-9.jpg.html)
lifted  six bricks by turning the handle
took about 30 lb of drag and me turning the handle with both hands.

Pulling ten bricks on a rolling weight was very easy to turn the handle, the scale registered at 35lb
adding ten more bricks it became harder to turn the handle but the scale still registered 35lb
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/parsts%20an%20such/020-3.jpg) (http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/pescatore1/media/parsts%20an%20such/020-3.jpg.html)
The drag washers did good
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/parsts%20an%20such/026-5.jpg) (http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/pescatore1/media/parsts%20an%20such/026-5.jpg.html)
chrome came off one of the metal washer
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/parsts%20an%20such/028-3.jpg) (http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/pescatore1/media/parsts%20an%20such/028-3.jpg.html)
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/parsts%20an%20such/029-3.jpg) (http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/pescatore1/media/parsts%20an%20such/029-3.jpg.html)
as I mentioned earlier, these washers are 1.10mm with fiberglass reinforcement.

Unfortunately, my rod didn't do so good, the seat got lose
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/parsts%20an%20such/025-6.jpg) (http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/pescatore1/media/parsts%20an%20such/025-6.jpg.html)
I moved the reel to the left so you can see what I'm talking about. Is this an easy fix?
Anyway, I'm happy with the results.
Erik was honest to let me know that the carbon fiber sheets are not made here in the US.
I like my results and those are ok with me..... take it from here.
Sal

Sal, are those the cf sheets you recently got on eBay??

Nice work mate.

Quote from: BMITCH on May 19, 2013, 01:38:40 AM
Sal, are those the cf sheets you recently got on eBay??

Yes!

35 freaking pounds of drag! That makes it a hundred pound reel. How much 100 pound spectra will a tank hold? This has to be the cheapest reel of that strength around. Amazing job guys.
Ronald

  Thanks to others that have contributed their ideas, and wondering "IF".......as I havent been able to send pictures on this forum yet (slow learner?) I have sent some pictures to others and they do it willingly..So watchout  and watch for more mods to come.......so thanks everybody, from me.........and as someone has already done a 6/0 Im sure,,,,Ive got lots of reels but havent graduated to the big reel class as I have a thing for 2-speed reels, quite a thing.............but hope to try a 114h in the future.......also toying with a big diawa I got recently......It has a 1 pc frame, star drag, sst parts inside, and would hold a wallets worth of 100#spectra..........box stock used condition this reel produced 32# drag when I got it.............next project maybee.................just playin around.....gstours.......

Quote from: noyb72 on May 27, 2013, 03:31:17 AM
35 freaking pounds of drag! That makes it a hundred pound reel. How much 100 pound spectra will a tank hold? This has to be the cheapest reel of that strength around. Amazing job guys.
Ronald

Ron, do you still need the 113H SUS gear set?

Thanks,
Alan

Absolutely. Sorry, been on vacation. If your available, I'll call right now.
Ronald

Thanks for your crazy tests Gary, it's very much appreciated around here. Just don't blame me or anyone else here when things go snap  ;D.
Keep them coming buddy.
Also thanks for the Pilot Marker idea, it still doesn't help marking the inner side of the gear though :-\.
This is what I do, I dab the gear in some flour and mark the sheet, it has been working nicely for me.
(http://i1318.photobucket.com/albums/t646/pescatore2/parts/002_zps0e047b3a.jpg) (http://s1318.photobucket.com/user/pescatore2/media/parts/002_zps0e047b3a.jpg.html)
and here is how nice it fits
(http://i1318.photobucket.com/albums/t646/pescatore2/parts/004_zps5fcc73cf.jpg) (http://s1318.photobucket.com/user/pescatore2/media/parts/004_zps5fcc73cf.jpg.html)
Thanks again for sharing.
Sal

A lot of interesting things going on here.  Sal, I like the way you mark the carbon fiber sheets with the white.  Very innovative.
  George

I'm glad I didn't see a credit card and a rolled up dollar bill...  ;D

"Man tager vad man haver" - a famous old quote from an old cook book here in Sweden. Translated - You use what you got.

Nice work!

/Karl

Sal, is that the SS gear from black pearl? If it is that's beautiful!!! If it is how did you get the cuts made?
Bob

I probably won't ever do any fabrication on this level, but I sure love reading about it! Amazing work.

OK, I failed.

Can someone tell me how to cut the center of the CF sheet? I used the cut washers in the gear as a guide for a twist drill and rounded off the CF washers inside the gear. What did I do wrong or more importantly what should I have done?

Ron

Maybe a hole cutter for gaskets. Look in a good auto parts store. I've drilled out the center holes on CF washers that were too small, sandwiching the CF between two keyed washers and going slow.

Quote from: Norcal Pescador on July 02, 2013, 12:54:24 AM
I've drilled out the center holes on CF washers that were too small, sandwiching the CF between two keyed washers and going slow.

I do something similar but use a "Sal Mill" a Dremmel.   A gasket punch or a piece of sharpened tubing the proper size works too.

Quote from: noyb72 on June 29, 2013, 06:58:40 AM
... as a guide for a twist drill ...

For drilling laminated sheet stock, this kind might work better for you.

(http://www.custompowertools.co.uk/images/Bosch/Wood_Drill_Bit_Brad.png)

If using a gasket punch, it helps to grease the carbon fiber sheet before cutting.  I forgot who originally published this idea, but I first read it on this site.  It definitely helps and I use Cal's grease.
Tom

Quote from: Alto Mare on May 27, 2013, 02:38:04 PM
Thanks for your crazy tests Gary, it's very much appreciated around here. Just don't blame me or anyone else here when things go snap  ;D.
Keep them coming buddy.
Also thanks for the Pilot Marker idea, it still doesn't help marking the inner side of the gear though :-\.
This is what I do, I dab the gear in some flour and mark the sheet, it has been working nicely for me.
(http://i1318.photobucket.com/albums/t646/pescatore2/parts/002_zps0e047b3a.jpg) (http://s1318.photobucket.com/user/pescatore2/media/parts/002_zps0e047b3a.jpg.html)
and here is how nice it fits
(http://i1318.photobucket.com/albums/t646/pescatore2/parts/004_zps5fcc73cf.jpg) (http://s1318.photobucket.com/user/pescatore2/media/parts/004_zps5fcc73cf.jpg.html)
Thanks again for sharing.
Sal

I see that Cathy let you use the good china.   ;D ;D Dominick

thanks for my morning chuckle!  ;D

Since we've been giving these reels more horse power, I was thinking of a way to cut down on heat build up.
So, my question is for the guys that are smarter than me...that should be all ;D.
Does this make any sense to you? I believe it would help cut down on heat build up, associated with the drags during a fight.
Am I thinking too much ? ;D
Don't look at the pattern, I was just trying to give an idea. The holes have been countersunk so they won't damage the Carbon Fiber washers.
(http://i1318.photobucket.com/albums/t646/pescatore2/011_zps16f54613.jpg) (http://s1318.photobucket.com/user/pescatore2/media/011_zps16f54613.jpg.html)
What are your thoughts.
Sal

Sal,

If I may say, as a novice to all of this upgrade technology, I find your design and technical ability most rewarding to follow.

Over here in the U.K we will never need these upgrades as we don't have the  size and species fish you have, but as I have posted in the past, you have inspired me to upgrade the reels I have, not because I need the upgrades, but what the hell, because it can be done!

Thank you for the inspiration,

Mike.

Sal, I'm definitely not smarter than you. I don't see it helping though. If it was exposed to the air instead of being sandwiched between carbon fiber then maybe. Of course I could be wrong.  ;D  My wife seems to think so anyway.  ;)  Bob

Sal, I can't see how the holes in the metal washer wouldn't build up some CF material. That CF washer is definitely under compression, no? This I would think would leave some materials( grease and fiber) behind.

Good to see I'm starting to get some answers ;). Florida Bob, I hear you, but I still say they would work. I'm not sure how much of a reduction it will be but I'm sure there is some. I will need to get a heat sensor device and test two reels at the same time, one with and one without the holes. It's going to have to wait though, my budget is low at the moment:-\.
Jersey Bob, yes the holes will get filled with grease, but these are not acting as venting holes. By creating holes, you are removing about 50% of metal, this would be a good thing....if we won't loose much drags. We shouldn't, we'll see.

Mike, thanks for the kind words, I'm just playing around with this stuff ;D

Sal

Ahh! Now your way above my pay scale.. Is what you are saying that with less drag material( in this case metal washers) less heat? Wouldn't it stand to reason this would also equate to less drag surface? Meaning less drag?

Sal:  I'm down in NJ today.  Too bad you did not post this idea a week ago, I would have gone to your house to work with you on the heat build up.  In my opinion the less surface the less heat bleed off.  As a matter of fact I believe that when the drags are sandwiched in among each other it the holes will hold the heat just as the little pockets on long underwear hold heat in the little pockets.  Dominick

I think that a reel drag functions in a similar way to the brakes in a car. The kinetic energy is converted into heat. I'm not a physicist,  but I think that having less metal thereby reducing the total area of the drag might result in more heat buildup.

Quote from: Cone on August 02, 2013, 11:00:30 PM
Sal, I'm definitely not smarter than you. I don't see it helping though. If it was exposed to the air instead of being sandwiched between carbon fiber then maybe. Of course I could be wrong.  ;D  My wife seems to think so anyway.  ;)  Bob

wives are always right.....   :-\

Your right Alan. It reminds me of the question: If a man is in the woods. There is no one around to hear him. If he says something is he still wrong?   :o     Bob

My buddy Bob (Cone) decided to send me a heat sensor gun, so I made a little gadget to do the test
(http://i1318.photobucket.com/albums/t646/pescatore2/004_zpsb6e26b6f.jpg) (http://s1318.photobucket.com/user/pescatore2/media/004_zpsb6e26b6f.jpg.html)
(http://i1318.photobucket.com/albums/t646/pescatore2/007_zps962c2d4c.jpg) (http://s1318.photobucket.com/user/pescatore2/media/007_zps962c2d4c.jpg.html)
(http://i1318.photobucket.com/albums/t646/pescatore2/008_zps294780ab.jpg) (http://s1318.photobucket.com/user/pescatore2/media/008_zps294780ab.jpg.html)
customized a little something for the pinion
(http://i1318.photobucket.com/albums/t646/pescatore2/009_zps4a5dfe68.jpg) (http://s1318.photobucket.com/user/pescatore2/media/009_zps4a5dfe68.jpg.html)
a perfect fit
(http://i1318.photobucket.com/albums/t646/pescatore2/011_zps0ca62f27.jpg) (http://s1318.photobucket.com/user/pescatore2/media/011_zps0ca62f27.jpg.html)
my 36 volts drill should handle the job
(http://i1318.photobucket.com/albums/t646/pescatore2/010_zps699152b5.jpg) (http://s1318.photobucket.com/user/pescatore2/media/010_zps699152b5.jpg.html)
everything works like a charm.
(http://i1318.photobucket.com/albums/t646/pescatore2/012_zps88b33100.jpg) (http://s1318.photobucket.com/user/pescatore2/media/012_zps88b33100.jpg.html)
We'll see if there is any temperature change between the two.
To be continued.....
Thanks Bob for helping out.
Sal

Just gave it a test drive with the star cranked down and the Carbon Fiber washers look good.
Thinking about it some more, I believe the bottom of the main gear also needs to be drilled.
I will try it this way first and see what I get.

Wow, NOW you're getting serious! Cool. Clever little rig you've got going there.

.

PS: Keep an eye on the drill motors; they are gonna heat up very quickly.

.

Sal, you never cease to amaze me with the things you come up with! Your the McGuiver of AT. I bet if my Yamaha broke down you could fix it with a Penn Senator.  ;D   Bob

Great stuff Sal (and Bob) - looking forward to seeing how this pans out!
Cheers mate, Justin

Well, looks like we got something here.
I checked the  torque on my drill with a scale, I wanted the drags to be at the exact same settings.
From 1 to 2 it jumps up 2 1/5lb, going up from there it gains 5lb per number. The number 4 on the drill gave me 15lb of torque and that's what I used to spin  the gears with both washers.
(http://i1318.photobucket.com/albums/t646/pescatore2/004_zps7a6a7a38.jpg) (http://s1318.photobucket.com/user/pescatore2/media/004_zps7a6a7a38.jpg.html)
I started with the perforated washers, I made them spin for a minute and removed them. The washers were warm to the touch, well the gear was worm, the washers just a little. I waited about 5 minutes and placed the gear back with the same CF washers and the solid metal washers this time. I used the same setting on the drill to adjust the drag and let the gears spin for the same amount of time.
When I removed the gear, I got burned a little  from touching it, the metal washers were also hot. The difference was very noticeable.
Now I can't wait for that gun.

Sal   ;   with the holes in the metal drag washers did you lose any noticeable drag pressure capability?  It seemed to me you would as you lose friction area.......keep us posted, very interesting,  gstours......                                             

Gary, I'm going to guestimate that the loss of drag is minimal, but I am going to say that the heat amount on the solid washers will be considerable more than the perforated washers....we'll see.
I'm using a 12v drill to set the drags and a 36v drill to run the gears. Doc mentioned to look after the motor, I've been mixing five gallon buckets of thin set with that drill., I'm sure it will handle the task.
I will be running the gears for about three minutes at a steady pace and see what happens from there.
I'll check as much as I can and get back with the results.
Sal

Ok, I received the gun, wow that was fast Bob, Thank you! You must be excited about this ;D, very nice Bob, you're always there for me.
I started with the stock metal washers at 20lb and spinning the gears for two minutes. I tried three, but my arm got tiered holding the drill ::). This is what I got:
(http://i1318.photobucket.com/albums/t646/pescatore2/003_zps3008b7bc.jpg) (http://s1318.photobucket.com/user/pescatore2/media/003_zps3008b7bc.jpg.html)
I had to wait a good 45 minutes to bring the temperature down  close to where I started, I didn't know it would take so long to cool.
I then placed the washers with the holes, adjusted the drag as earlier and this is what I got:
(http://i1318.photobucket.com/albums/t646/pescatore2/010_zps31bd4fb1.jpg) (http://s1318.photobucket.com/user/pescatore2/media/010_zps31bd4fb1.jpg.html)
the carbon fiber washers did good
(http://i1318.photobucket.com/albums/t646/pescatore2/015_zps7effe1ab.jpg) (http://s1318.photobucket.com/user/pescatore2/media/015_zps7effe1ab.jpg.html)
some grease did collect on in the holes, but only on the washers with the ears
(http://i1318.photobucket.com/albums/t646/pescatore2/014_zpsa73694fd.jpg) (http://s1318.photobucket.com/user/pescatore2/media/014_zpsa73694fd.jpg.html)
this could be a good thing, it would keep the contact surfaces clean at all times
I tried increasing the drag to 25lb, but my gadget failed at that setting.
don't feel bad about sending me something every once in a while ;D
(http://i1318.photobucket.com/albums/t646/pescatore2/020_zps29ce7be9.jpg) (http://s1318.photobucket.com/user/pescatore2/media/020_zps29ce7be9.jpg.html)
I need to make a bracket with a pin, so the pinion stays square with the main gear under load.
I believe we're on to something here, 43 degree is a lot. By the way, 144 degree will burn you when you touch it.
Wear leather gloves.....I'm a stone mason ;D
Enjoy!
Sal

This is awesome Sal - thanks for doing all the hard yards.
Looking forward to another round of Tank modifications!
Cheers mate, Justin

Great work Sal.  But I am sure this is not really work for you but rather a lot of fun. 
Thanks for what you are doing to help us all.

John

Neat looking rig you set up for the test. Once all the parts are inside of a reel there is no ambient air to help with cooling so in the reel the temps will be higher but it appears the holes will help regardless.

And Sal still has a day job.  Can you guys imagine when he actually retires? ;D

Thanks guys! Again, just playing around ;).
I will install 4 of those washers with the holes in my Hex gear set and see if I get close to 50lb as I did earlier.
As everything else, these will need to be tested on the water and see how they hold up.
If they do work out these would be great for reels from the Tank and up.
the Super Tank, with the Hexagon gears and these washers would be the bomb ;)
Sal

Thanks for all your hard wok, Sal. I'm glad the gun made it. We appreciate all you do for us!   Bob

Quote from: Alto Mare on August 05, 2013, 11:38:35 PM
Thanks guys! Again, just playing around ;).
Sal

Sal, you keep playing around.  This is very interesting.  Thank you.
  George

Interesting stuff! I wonder what you guys could end up with if you had one of these to play around with...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnIvhlKT7SY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnIvhlKT7SY)

Regarding temperature, is really 145 degrees so much that you have to be concerned with it? As you said Sal, it burns your fingers, but your fingers aren't made from steel and carbon fiber... And we don't stick our fingers inside the reel when a big tuna is making a run for it anyhow, right?

Anyway, keep it up!

:)
/Karl

Heat soak is a major issue with drags for big fish. I used to pour buckets of water on reels while my uncle's fought big sharks and marlin, of course that was long before carbon fiber. I think a reduction of 30% will help out a lot, quite an impressive bit of inventing Sal.

Ron

I was just wondering in what temperature range brake fade is likely to happen. Carbon fibre is very heat resistant (depending on the resin involved) as well as steel and cal's drag grease. I understand that the temperature will be higher inside of the reel than in Sal's tests but will it be so high as to cause a loss of drag?

I'm not saying I know that it won't, I'm just asking... :) Have there maybe been tests made? Like before and after a long run on heavy drags? I'm talking now of carbon fiber drag setups.

Hello Kalr, 145  was only taken after 2 minutes of spinning at 20lb, I believe it would generate way more heat out in the real world.
Dominick ( Pescachase ) mentioned to me that the Tank did good, but got really hot. Heat buildup is not a good thing, no matter which drag material you're using. I've seen a 16/0 fail, due to heat buildup and yes, the carbon fiber do get glazed over from heat. I don't know how much heat it will take to get them to that point and I don't have any interest in getting involved to find out.
My test, as stated above, was to find out if perforated metal washers generate less heat  than a  solid washer, under the same conditions.
This test could have been done with less force or more, it doesn't really matter. The important thing is to find out if there is any differences between the two. I believe I was able to prove it ....well, to myself anyway.
The bottom line is, any reduction on heat buildup is a good thing.
Cheers!
Sal

Quote from: Mandelstam on August 06, 2013, 09:21:20 AM
I was just wondering in what temperature range brake fade is likely to happen. Carbon fibre is very heat resistant (depending on the resin involved) as well as steel and cal's drag grease. I understand that the temperature will be higher inside of the reel than in Sal's tests but will it be so high as to cause a loss of drag?

I'm not saying I know that it won't, I'm just asking... :) Have there maybe been tests made? Like before and after a long run on heavy drags? I'm talking now of carbon fiber drag setups.

I myself have tested various types of carbon fiber friction material (and many others) to temperatures approaching 200 degrees C (~400 F) with little or no indication of fade and very little wear, over one high speed test as well as several tests repeated. (I am not alone in this... Cal Sheets, Dennis Bunker, Jack Erskine as well as reel manufacturers such as Penn have all done extensive experiments and testing. (this, by the way, is where Penn found their name HT-100: High Temperature, 100 hours)

The holy grail in the hunt for the perfect friction material would be to find one that shows a perfectly flat line on a graph depicting changes according to temperature, sliding velocity, values of static vs dynamic coefficients of friction and so on.

And, HT-100 and its siblings Carbontex and DuraDrag come very, very close to doing just that. And that is precisely why we use it.

Doc.

.

Quote from: Robert Janssen on August 06, 2013, 12:34:19 PM

Quote from: Mandelstam on August 06, 2013, 09:21:20 AM
I was just wondering in what temperature range brake fade is likely to happen. Carbon fibre is very heat resistant (depending on the resin involved) as well as steel and cal's drag grease. I understand that the temperature will be higher inside of the reel than in Sal's tests but will it be so high as to cause a loss of drag?

I'm not saying I know that it won't, I'm just asking... :) Have there maybe been tests made? Like before and after a long run on heavy drags? I'm talking now of carbon fiber drag setups.

I myself have tested various types of carbon fiber friction material (and many others) to temperatures approaching 200 degrees C (~400 F) with little or no indication of fade and very little wear, over one high speed test as well as several tests repeated. (I am not alone in this... Cal Sheets, Dennis Bunker, Jack Erskine as well as reel manufacturers such as Penn have all done extensive experiments and testing. (this, by the way, is where Penn found their name HT-100: [bold]H[/bold]igh [bold]T[/bold]emperature, 100 hours)


The holy grail in the hunt for the perfect friction material would be to find one that shows a perfectly flat line on a graph depicting changes according to temperature, sliding velocity, values of static vs dynamic coefficients of friction and so on.

And, HT-100 and its siblings Carbontex and DuraDrag come very, very close to doing just that. And that is precisely why we use it.

Doc.

.

Another thing clarified :) Thanks, Doc!

Quote from: Alto Mare on August 06, 2013, 10:15:27 AM
Hello Kalr, 145  was only taken after 2 minutes of spinning at 20lb, I believe it would generate way more heat out in the real world.
Dominick ( Pescachase ) mentioned to me that the Tank did good, but got really hot. Heat buildup is not a good thing, no matter which drag material you're using. I've seen a 16/0 fail, due to heat buildup and yes, the carbon fiber do get glazed over from heat. I don't know how much heat it will take to get them to that point and I don't have any interest in getting involved to find out.
My test, as stated above, was to find out if perforated metal washers generate less heat  than a  solid washer, under the same conditions.
This test could have been done with less force or more, it doesn't really matter. The important thing is to find out if there is any differences between the two. I believe I was able to prove it ....well, to myself anyway.
The bottom line is, any reduction on heat buildup is a good thing.
Cheers!
Sal

We're all very greatful for your experiments! I for one have learned so much about the inner workings of a reel from reading your posts Sal!

And I agree, to keep it cool is a fundamental thing in fishing! And not just your head.

:)
Karl

Quote from: Mandelstam on August 06, 2013, 12:49:03 PM

And I agree, to keep it cool is a fundamental thing in fishing! And not just your head.

:)
Karl

;D ;D
I try not to let it get to me Karl, I'm a very easy going guy ;)
Sorry I spelled your name wrong up above, no disrespect, just too early in the morning.
Take care bud.
Sal

Quote from: Alto Mare on August 06, 2013, 05:03:37 PM
Take care bud.
Sal

X2

Thanks Doc, great information.

As Sal and Bryan have shown with their recent experiments, reels can actually get hot to the tuch. Definatly to the point of becoming uncomfortable if not to the point that skin is burnt. To me, that's a great reason to work towards heat build up.

Ron

Thought this might interest you with the heat reduction aspect you guys are working on.http://www.fishing.net.nz/asp_forums/the-guts-of-a-studio-ocean-mark-spool_topic93299.html

If your gonna pour water on a reel, especially if it has mono, then don't pour it all over! Just on the drag star and gear box area

Quote from: raumati01 on August 14, 2013, 07:17:03 AM
Thought this might interest you with the heat reduction aspect you guys are working on.http://www.fishing.net.nz/asp_forums/the-guts-of-a-studio-ocean-mark-spool_topic93299.html

Looks to me like the radiator is a metal drag disk with holes in it, where have I seen that lately?
Ron

I am new to this board, but not new to tinkering with reels, and I have THOROUGHLY enjoyed reading this thread.  Thank you!

Hello WreckinBall, I'm glad you enjoyed it.
There are a couple of guys here that can actully make reel better than anything out there. ;)
Welcome aboard and enjoy your stay.
Sal

Quote from: Bunnlevel Sharker on August 14, 2013, 09:30:23 PM
If your gonna pour water on a reel, especially if it has mono, then don't pour it all over! Just on the drag star and gear box area

Please explain why.

That's the only area that will get hot due to the friction of the drags.

Quote from: Bryan Young on August 30, 2013, 04:11:28 PM
That's the only area that will get hot due to the friction of the drags.

Unfortubnatly that is not entirely accurate. Heat will transfer into the spool and all the way out to the handle. I believe that BunnLevel Sharker is talking about something I have only heard about. Apparently, mono that is heated through the spool and then quenched with water can become brittle and weaken. I have heard many people complain about losing fish this way. I know that I just dumped water on the reel, belt, fisherman and anything else while we were running around and we never experienced the phenomenon, and I am happy about that! ;D

Ron

That is so true Ron.  I was only thinking of the sideplates...the left plate (for right handed reels) should not get too hot considering the contact point of the spool.

Quote from: floating doc on August 30, 2013, 04:02:31 PM

Quote from: Bunnlevel Sharker on August 14, 2013, 09:30:23 PM
If your gonna pour water on a reel, especially if it has mono, then don't pour it all over! Just on the drag star and gear box area

Please explain why.

The sudden cool down can cause the mono to snap. The drag star gets the hottest, grease or not

I dremelled out the ss gear last night but awaiting to pick a CF sheet to test.  I left the OEM keyed slots in case this does not work out and I need to go back to a 5+1 or 7+1 system.

What a great thread! As a new member here I have found myself gravitating to your posts, I started here just hoping to learn to do my own reel maintenence.  Reading the development of the Tank inspired me! Instead of just maintaining my 113h I have upgrade to all the great SS and CF parts I have found here.  I just finished double dogging the reel and thoroughly enjoy just spinning the sleeve and listneing to the music of the click.  Thank you for that!  
I am and have been for many many years a fellow shade tree engineer and a tinkerer at heart and I like where you're going with this.
Max smoooooth drag possible with lowest heat conduction! The heat build up cannot be avoided because it is a direct result of friction in the drag stack, it's got to go somewhere, the 113h drag stack is closed it has only so much space, so the heat does what heat does and it travels to areas that are less hot.  the vented disc brake in autos works because the vents create greater surface area for heat to move into the open air, finding a way to get the heat off the metal washers in a closed drag system is an awesome idea and venting the main gear may be a good direction because as soon as you reduce the heat retention you will be free to increase the friction once again, thinner metal washers?  Thinner CF washers?  More of each in the stack. Do I see 55lbs in the future?

Thank you for your kind words David. About the 55lbs, I don't think so, I believe we did good with the numbers and shouldn't get too greedy ...but we're not done yet ;D.
Sal

Hey Sal; I got an idea, in the racing motocross circuit, they use radiators and small elect pumps for cooling. In drag racing they use Ice and Dri ice paks to lay on Intake manifolds for extra cooling between runs, so what do you thing of a back pac ice rerecirculating coolant  in small hoses thru a jacket over the reel, maybe with a lo and hi button on the foregrip? and a led temp readout located by the first guide?
  I would love to design and test the first prototype but the wife has me real busy now!!!     cheers gst.   maybe after Christmas!

Go for it buddy, I'll be anxiously waiting ;).

Lee, I know you're  up already, you're like me ;D.
From our latest conversation about drilling holes in the metal washers, i'm thinking that these might be better:
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/002-30.jpg) (http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/pescatore1/media/002-30.jpg.html)
I'm liking the one on the lower left best, but both would do better.
I was testing a Jigmaster the other day, someone sent me some washers and I forgot all about them. Nothing fancy with the test, I simply tied the line on a post and gave a steady pull, appr. 5-6', keeping the line in the center of the spool.
I cranked the star down all the way and got around 30lbs, I repeated the test about 50 times and the handle screw got really hot.
I bet I would have felt the heat in my hand, if the handle wasn't drilled. A new design with the gear sleeve, using a c-clamp and a cap nut, instead of the handle screw would be a good improvement.

Back to the washers, I rather try Bryan's washers first, again let's go with the jigmaster it is a little easier to handle.
Since I'm a good boy...I think :-\, maybe Bryan  could send you a set on him, so you could cut the slots, if not, I'll pay for them.
He might not be interested with the idea of the slots though, I know there are a few guys here that can get it done, so if it happens, I would appreciate it.
The width of the slots doesn't need to be wide, I'm not worried about grease getting caught in the slots, I just want a break in the metal.
I'm thinking 1/32", but whatever the cutter can give us.
From my testings with the drilled washers, I believe these will do a good job, we need to find the correct thickness and material, so they won't warp.
My drawing is not to scale, we could make the slots shorter, we could also use heat treated stainless or Ti...we have options.
Testing will let us know.
Let's get it done.

Sal

Hey buddy, 

I'm up too.  Lol.  From a thermal dynamics view, the drags may be a little cooler because there is less metal to conduct heat.  Likewise, there is less surface friction area, so the drags would need to be clamped down more fore the same drag numbers.  This is just theory have you.  Regarding heat dissipation, the brakes in a star drag reel is still a closed system.  There is no venting, and therefore cooling is accomplished by the main gear and top washer along with the gear sleeve.  Therefore, I personally don't think it will work to reduce heat.  A lever drag reel where you can add fins or cooling slots to the pressure plate would probably help since it's an open system.

Trying might give us a better answer, wouldn't you agree? Besides, I might change your mind the same way I will change it by using Delrin for under the gear ...eventually ;D.
Seriously though, it doesn't cost much for us to give this a shot, I believe it would be nice to try it.

Read the phrase on my avatar, all the way down ;)

Sal

I'm not sure how much it will cost to cut a few washers.  It's better to probably get Lee or Adam to cut them as they can work by the pieces as they operate the machines and can usually get them cut on their time.  I have to hire someone to cut them...but I can get a price if you wish.

If you want to experiment by creating cross drills, I can send you a few.  I do use hardened stainless steel, so you would need good drill bits.  Let me know.

Any time you have the same amount of pressure over a smaller area, pounds per square inch increases on the materials. I would like to see a series of holes or grooves cut into the washers, if nothing else, just to try. I would be more afraid of warpage due to inconsistent temperatures through the washers.
Also, the farther out from the center the drag can be applied, the more leverage the drag has.

The only experience i have with cross drilled or slotted aything is on brake rotors, where forces and temperature is MUCH higher. It does help, but also helps the pad wear faster.
You may want to copy a design similar to a hydraulic brake on a mountain bike. All the grooves headed the same direction in a spiral fashion.

The amount of energy used/consumed/converted by the drag system is the same with standard and holed/slotted washers.
Friction and force are converted to heat. Since this is a closed system, no energy will be lost, except heat transfer through the gear sleeve to the handle and drag star.
The measured difference may be caused by grease in the holes melted and drained out of the system, taking a lot of heat with it and transfering it to other parts of the reel.
The next time the drag is subjected to the same amount of work, there is no grease left to melt aand drain out and by this transfer the heat, and the heat buildup will be the same as with plain washers.
This is what I think about it, but by all means, please experiment with it. There may be other gains with different washers.

Quote from: Robert Janssen on August 06, 2013, 12:34:19 PM
........ Penn have all done extensive experiments and testing. (this, by the way, is where Penn found their name HT-100: High Temperature, 100 hours)

Doc.

thanks Doc, that's why I love spending few hours reading old posts, they keep a lot of good info.

You know, Lee made me some custom perforated ss washers a while back and I never tested them, I have to try them out when I get a chance. Thanks again Lee.

Alex, if you're using the Hexagon or Octagon inserts, I wouldn't recommend anything under 1mm in thickness and those need to be laminated.
During my tests, the non laminated washers failed.
By the way, what I mean by laminated is two carbon washers with a fiberglass washer sandwiched in between.

Sal

Quote from: Alto Mare on August 22, 2015, 08:39:17 PM
By the way, what I mean by laminated is two carbon washers with a fiberglass washer sandwiched in between.
Sal

Thanks Sal, yes Im using or will be using the octagon inserts from Lee, HT-100 drag washers are laminated and will be used on those inserts, cut to fit.

thanks buddy.

Quote from: Alto Mare on November 10, 2014, 03:17:47 AM
Thank you for your kind words David. About the 55lbs, I don't think so, I believe we did good with the numbers and shouldn't get too greedy ...but we're not done yet ;D.
Sal

What a cool thread to go back in time and read about what you guys were doing back then!

Sal, did you have to eat these words? lol

I think in another post you ended up getting around 55#'s eventually on a similar setup?