Reel Repair by Alan Tani

General Maintenance Tips => Tools and Lubricants => Topic started by: Alto Mare on March 07, 2013, 03:13:53 PM

Title: Testing some grease
Post by: Alto Mare on March 07, 2013, 03:13:53 PM
I did a little test for myself and decided to share it with you guys.
I tested (3) products: Valvoline Red, Yamaha Marine and Penn
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/parsts%20an%20such/013-4.jpg)
The Yamaha and Penn were tested right out of the container,  Valvoline was mixed 50/50 with Power Steering Fluid.
I placed a small amount of each on popsicle sticks and soaked them in saltwater for 17 days
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/parsts%20an%20such/003-6.jpg)
The cup had 5oz.of water and a tbs of salt.
I pulled the popsicle sticks out of the cups and placed them next to some fresh grease
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/parsts%20an%20such/005-7.jpg)
The Valvoline and Penn looked the same to me, the Yamaha turned green.
Here is a closer shot of each
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/parsts%20an%20such/007-6.jpg)
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/parsts%20an%20such/009-8.jpg)
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/parsts%20an%20such/008-6.jpg)
I'm not sure what this means, but there was definitely a reaction with the Yamaha and saltwater.
The gentleman that came up with the Valvoline has been using it for over 20 years. He's a machinist that does some impressive work.
He also mentioned that he would never put anything with cleaners in it  in his reels, it would swell your seals and make the reel tighter.
Another of his quote was: fishing reels are not engines.
This was a personal test for myself, as I said above, I don't know what the change of color means...if anything.
I thought it was a good idea to post. Now maybe someone smarter than me can add to this. ;D
Sal
Title: Re: Testing some grease
Post by: paal on March 07, 2013, 04:22:19 PM
Pretty interesting! This is the new yamaha stuff, right? I guess if saltwater actually made its way into the grease, you should get corrosion if you smear the polluted grease onto something that develops rust fast? So part II of this test could be to take those 3 samples and smear it onto some iron pieces, and see what happens?
Title: Re: Testing some grease
Post by: Alto Mare on March 07, 2013, 04:38:22 PM
Too late Paal, everything went in the trash can. As you can see, I'm not that bright :-\
It's not a big deal to repeat the test, but it is a good idea to let someone else take over.
This would confirm my test. ;)
Title: Re: Testing some grease
Post by: johndtuttle on March 07, 2013, 08:02:51 PM
Thanks for that Sal.

Some Marine greases have additives that react with salt to prevent it from reacting with the metal it is protecting. I think others use a different method and that may be what you are seeing here.

From a Chemistry standpoint the ones with additives contain something that reacts faster with the Sodium than the metal would, kinda like a sacrificial anode.

The change in color *I don't think* is confirmatory as the underlying substrate may still be protected.

Get some Iron nails and repeat the test and you should see rust on the nails and then we can look at what's under the grease by wiping it off.

I've been wanting to do the same test but don't have a bunch of different greases to try.

best
Title: Re: Testing some grease
Post by: Alto Mare on March 07, 2013, 08:52:09 PM
Ok John and Paal, I'm trying it on some cutnails
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/parsts%20an%20such/015-5.jpg)
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/parsts%20an%20such/016-4.jpg)
I will check back in a couple of weeks.... I'm glad some friends here send me grease every now and then ;)
Sal
Title: Re: Testing some grease
Post by: johndtuttle on March 07, 2013, 09:00:42 PM
Awesome Sal!

Wipe off the tops to expose them so we can compare rates of totally unprotected versus protected!

thanks for doing this!!!  ;D
Title: Re: Testing some grease
Post by: Alto Mare on March 07, 2013, 09:10:55 PM
I was thinking about that John. I'm going to leave these to see how much it really protects, I will get (3) more cups and protect only one half of the nails.
Title: Re: Testing some grease
Post by: Dominick on March 07, 2013, 09:16:52 PM
Sal, did you match the salinity of seawater?  Dominick
Title: Re: Testing some grease
Post by: johndtuttle on March 07, 2013, 09:19:27 PM
Quote from: Alto Mare on March 07, 2013, 09:10:55 PM
I was thinking about that John. I'm going to leave these to see how much it really protects, I will get (3) more cups and protect only one half of the nails.

Put them in the same cups so you have a control.

best
Title: Re: Testing some grease
Post by: Alto Mare on March 07, 2013, 09:44:25 PM
Quote from: Pescachaser on March 07, 2013, 09:16:52 PM
Sal, did you match the salinity of seawater?  Dominick
No Dominick, as I stated above 5oz of water and one tablespoon  of salt. I have no interest in getting that that involved with it, this is just to see how the grease reacts under those conditions. If it's bad for one grease, it should be bad for all. The water has been mixed with salt in one container.
Sal
Title: Re: Testing some grease
Post by: Alto Mare on March 07, 2013, 09:45:44 PM
Quote from: johndtuttle on March 07, 2013, 09:19:27 PM
Quote from: Alto Mare on March 07, 2013, 09:10:55 PM
I was thinking about that John. I'm going to leave these to see how much it really protects, I will get (3) more cups and protect only one half of the nails.

Put them in the same cups so you have a control.

best
John, wouldn't we get away with this? I know how nasty that water gets with the cutnails.
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/parsts%20an%20such/019-3.jpg)
Sal
Title: Re: Testing some grease
Post by: johndtuttle on March 07, 2013, 09:52:30 PM
Yep that looks great!

If we were doing a real super duper science experiment they would all be in the same bucket and some fancy schmancy method of standardizing the salt concentration (in mol/liter lol) would be done...

Actually, it would take me a week to research a protocol for this experiment to be worthy of a National Publication.... :D

But exactly what you are doing is good enough for us lot.  :P

best
Title: Re: Testing some grease
Post by: Alto Mare on March 07, 2013, 10:03:25 PM
I forgot to mention that after two weeks the popsicle stick with the valvoline had no salt deposit above the grease at all, a little did form during the third week. The popsicle stick marked Penn had just as much, the Yamaha had a little more than the two. Also, I'm not sure if this means anything but the Yamaha popsicle stick got much darker under the grease, as you can see from the shots.
Title: Re: Testing some grease
Post by: paal on March 08, 2013, 11:11:28 AM
Sal, I love these experiments! Was in the process of setting one up myself a while ago, but I lost my workshop.
Love to hear the update in a couple of weeks! :)
Title: Re: Testing some grease
Post by: Killerbug on March 08, 2013, 11:22:11 AM
Quote from: Alto Mare on March 07, 2013, 10:03:25 PM
Also, I'm not sure if this means anything but the Yamaha popsicle stick got much darker under the grease, as you can see from the shots.

My humble guess would be, that there are some oil separation involved. This is one reason why, aluminium thickened grease are less favored as lubricant for HW duty applications. But agian, this should mostly be a problem under heat.

I was also thinking if that Yamalube used for this test is the same as Alan used to buy?, to me it looks more like traditional marine grease that is supposed, to emulsifie with water to create a water tight packing between the prob shaft, and the stern tube. That's why I never just buy whatever marine grease.  In my Country, who has a long tradition for shipping, making marine engines etc, we distinguish between marine grease, and stern tube grease(that is also sold as marine grease).  
Title: Re: Testing some grease
Post by: Cone on March 08, 2013, 12:54:32 PM
Interesting Sal. I opened a reel a couple of weeks ago and noticed a color change in the Yamaha grease inside. I didn't think anything at the time. I have been mixing it with corrosion x to thin it though.  Bob
Title: Re: Testing some grease
Post by: bluefish69 on March 08, 2013, 05:34:51 PM
I have been using Penn Lube since I started as a reel Dr. I use it straight from the jar except for the Bridge Sleeve. I thin it with Penn Oil. I have been doing pretty good with it so far. Getting good spin so far.
Title: Re: Testing some grease
Post by: Jighead61 on March 09, 2013, 03:31:11 PM
Good read.
Title: Re: Testing some grease
Post by: Alto Mare on March 12, 2013, 03:01:18 AM
Took some shots after 4 days, I didn't want to lose the pictures so decided to post.
top and bottom are the same type of grease
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/parsts%20an%20such/007-7.jpg)
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/parsts%20an%20such/006-6.jpg)

What got me puzzled is the cup marked Yamaha (top center), the water really got rusty. But if you look at the bottom center, the nail with the same Yamaha grease, the water is clearest. Maybe the ss wire has some to do with it, but the rest should react in the same manner :-\.
Look at the right, the Penn grease is slowly pulling away from the ss wire,leaving the metal exposed.
The red grease  (Valvoline)doesn't look too promising, but not able to determine yet.
From what I've seen, I believe 7 days is plenty for this test, or should I go for 14? What do you guys think.
Sal
Title: Re: Testing some grease
Post by: johndtuttle on March 12, 2013, 03:58:58 AM
O wow...um, actually, the stainless wire might have a lot to do with it...

Dissimilar metals in contact rust much faster than either of the metals alone in a corrosive environment. The difference in the their ability to hold onto their electrons allows the stainless to actively cause the iron to rust faster as it is pulling them off with the salt as the carrier facilitating it. Functionally you have made a 3/4 of a battery :).

note that all of them with the stainless wire in them are rusting faster and even the grease cannot prevent it.

best
Title: Re: Testing some grease
Post by: Irish Jigger on March 12, 2013, 09:59:19 AM
Quote from: johndtuttle on March 12, 2013, 03:58:58 AM
O wow...um, actually, the stainless wire might have a lot to do with it...

x2
Title: Re: Testing some grease
Post by: Alto Mare on March 14, 2013, 09:44:54 PM
Decided to complete the test at 7 full days, here are some shots
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/parsts%20an%20such/002-15.jpg)
here I'm showing the water without the nails
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/parsts%20an%20such/005-12.jpg)
the Yamaha cup was the only one with grease on the surface...center cup
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/parsts%20an%20such/006-8.jpg)
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/parsts%20an%20such/009-10.jpg)
here I'm showing the cups after I emptied them, the ones on the right(Penn) are cleaner than the other four
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/parsts%20an%20such/014-6.jpg)
as I mentioned earlier the Yamaha is the only grease that changed color
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/parsts%20an%20such/021-3.jpg)
Here are the nails after they've been cleaned gently with a rag
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/parsts%20an%20such/023-3.jpg)
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/parsts%20an%20such/025-3.jpg)
As you can see, they all did well, no sign of rust at the greased area.
The Penn grease wasn't really pulling away from the wire, the rust that formed at that area was actually on top of the grease.
What I got out of this test is that Penn grease did much better than the other two.
The Penn grease gave a much better protection on the nail that was covered half way, you can see it on the picture.
Also, Penn grease was smoother and brushed on the metal really nice. I like the way it sticks to the metal parts with very little effort .
Both the Yamaha and Valvoline needed to be brushed many more times to cover the parts.
To me Penn performed the best, but if you take cost in consideration, I'm not so sure.
One thing I can tell you is that I will be using Penn on my reels from now on. I will thin it a little with reelx for my spinners.
I hope it's of some interest for some, if 7 days wasn't enough, someone else could take it a little longer.
Enjoy! Sal
Title: Re: Testing some grease
Post by: Bryan Young on March 14, 2013, 10:11:22 PM
Sal, thank you for going through all of the trouble for our sake.

This goes to show you that something is better than nothing.  If you don't have access to certain brands of grease, there are many others out there that can get the job done.  Probably the main thing we need to learn is wash your reels and do periodic preventative maintenance, and your reels should have no or very little corrosion.  We just happen to use Yamaha...and I use Yamaha and Evinrude Triple Guard. ;D
Title: Re: Testing some grease
Post by: johndtuttle on March 14, 2013, 10:14:00 PM
Thanks very much for that Sal!

I have used the Penn stuff whenever I do a rebuild on one of their reels (out of respect for Penn) and have been really happy with how it feels going on as it is lighter than straight marine bearing greases. It is more expensive than Yama-lubes on a "per ounce" basis but is more than affordable enough for the guy doing his own reels.

best, John
Title: Re: Testing some grease
Post by: Alto Mare on March 14, 2013, 11:43:45 PM
Not a problem guys, I didn't mind doing it. John, any thoughts  why the Yamaha grease appeared to the surface in one of the cup and the other cups didn't show any?
Title: Re: Testing some grease
Post by: johndtuttle on March 15, 2013, 02:21:55 AM
Quote from: Alto Mare on March 14, 2013, 11:43:45 PM
Not a problem guys, I didn't mind doing it. John, any thoughts  why the Yamaha grease appeared to the surface in one of the cup and the other cups didn't show any?

So, this is an area outside my training per se (I am a molecular biologist and MD) but I took my required 2 years of Chemistry and year of Physics so I can *guess* lol.

I believe that was the one with the stainless and the nail in it? If so, the accelerated reaction may have had some of the additives in the grease reacting and freeing up some of the oil based substrate that the additives are suspended in. Kinda like the additives precipitate out and leave some oil free to float to the surface, maybe :D.

Not a big deal, the basic idea is that there is a limit to how long and how much salt a fixed amount of grease can deal with and explains why old grease gets hard as part of it has formed solids with the salt and/or some of the oily stuff has probably evaporated away.

These marine greases form a water barrier by simply coating in oily stuff, but a salt barrier is not the same thing at all and you need something to react with the salt. Both get "used up" eventually. These are just temporizing measures that give us a chance to clean them up before salt and water destroy our reel. I think that anyone questioning the modest use of grease in reels should see both how much rust is produced quickly in your test and how immaculate the nails protected by grease remain.

best
Title: Re: Testing some grease
Post by: saltydog on March 15, 2013, 04:26:18 AM
Thanks Sal for the work you put into this.
Title: Re: Testing some grease
Post by: Alto Mare on March 15, 2013, 11:00:36 AM
John, I might be better looking but you're smarter than me ;D, that's why I asked for your input.
Thanks for your help, I appreciate it.

Well said Bryan! As you can see, all three did a good job. I'm not pushing one product over another, you guys use what you're comfortable with. With routine maintenance, you should be good with most.

Sal

PS. My wife was asking why there was grease on the dryer :o. I might have to tell her I was trying to fix it ;) ;D
Title: Re: Testing some grease
Post by: Killerbug on March 19, 2013, 05:14:13 AM
Does the Penn grease come with a datasheet?
Title: Re: Testing some grease
Post by: Alto Mare on March 19, 2013, 10:04:22 AM
Morten, this is the best I could do.
Sal
http://www.setonresourcecenter.com/msdshazcom/htdocs//MSDS/Retail/P/Penn%20Angler%20PrecisionReelGrease-US.pdf
Title: Re: Testing some grease
Post by: Black Widow Tackle on April 11, 2013, 02:16:34 AM
Thanks, for the info!