alan tani @ alantani.com fishing reel repair rebuild tutorial Serviced 6 Internationals this week...a few observations
Reel Repair by Alan Tani
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Author Topic: Serviced 6 Internationals this week...a few observations  (Read 38375 times)
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RockyMtnKurt
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« Reply #15 on: March 14, 2014, 03:45:51 PM »

Hello tightlines, I am working on my first International II 80TW. In the second picture at about 3 o'clock on the far right, below the dog springs, there appears to be a waved stainless washer. Where does that fit in the assembly? Thanks. Your posting has been a big help as I'm getting ready to test for shimming.
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Tightlines666
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« Reply #16 on: March 14, 2014, 04:10:28 PM »

Pretty sure that was shim between the left plate bearing and the outer drive plate.
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RockyMtnKurt
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« Reply #17 on: March 14, 2014, 06:50:19 PM »

I have since arrived back home and examined the washer in my situation. I closely looked at the wear pattern and the washer is definitely a shim with a wear pattern consistent with the left side outer plate positioning also. Thank you for your time, I greatly appreciate it. Do you know exactly where there is more basic information on the principles of shimming in this forum? In this reel I have assessed pinion to main gear mesh with gear grease and the 'feel' of their function of the gears with the reel set in full free clutch position, with no preload strike pressure. Also, I have checked spool travel from no load to full strike load, and I have assessed the progression of friction washers and clutches as the ()() linear type, and checked the gear meshing under full load also. Some of this I have relied on measurements, then fallen back on what the 'feel' I want for the friction clutching. Anyways, thanks again.
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RockyMtnKurt
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« Reply #18 on: March 14, 2014, 07:05:58 PM »

Also, do you have an opinion on how much main gear to pinion gear play is within normal tolerances?
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Tightlines666
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« Reply #19 on: March 14, 2014, 08:25:24 PM »

I'm not sure exactly how much space there should be there, but I know there needs to be a little.  I typically just go by feel here.  They should crank relatively smoothly and have no noticeable 'grinding', or wobble or bumpy feel.  An important thing is that the gears mesh properly on a lateral basis whereby the drive gear does not contact the clicker ratchet at 0 preset, and freespool, and likewise that the high speed drive gear doesn't contact the step (from high to low speed) on the pinion gear, and the Bellevilles don't contact the low speed drive gear under max settings.  The third thing to check is that there is no appreciable lateral or torsional play in the drive shaft.  Generally if you put the reel back together and put it through its paces, you will know if something isn't quite right here.  If you crack it open after testing you can usually see through the dusplacement of your fresh grease where the gears are meshing throughout their range.  Don't stress too much about this stuff, the reels have a little bit of looseness built in here.

Main thing to check for here is that there are no obvious cracks, marring, or uneven wear patterns on the gears, (or drive shaft) and that the spool, shaft, and drive shaft are not warped or bent.  If your bearings are good and there is appreciable roughness when cranking these are your most likely culprits.  Roughness in high speed is usually more noticeable and often due to worn high speed main gear.  I believe the pinion gear is made of a slightly harder material and is more resistant to wear...though I have come accross two reels w/warped/bent spool shafts, and 1 w/a cracked pinion gear tooth...typically the gears are the last thing that need replacing.  (Wear typically occurs or is noticed most on the high speed drive, then low speed drive, then pinion)

So if you really want to make your reel feel smoother when cranking...
First is new pinion bearing, then new drive shaft bearings, then drive shaft/low speed main/high speed main/then pinion.  Also since the pinion is usually the first bearing to fail, if I replace any bearings on the reel, I make sure the pinion is a new one.  Seems like the inner then outer (depending on water/salt intrusion) drive shaft bearings are the next to go, followed by the right spool, then left side plate, then left spool bearings.  Another thing I forgot to mention that I have been noticing is the left spool bearing can spit grease inside the drag area, if left open.  Although freespool suffers some, I've been leaning towards leaving the shields on the spool bearings and packing them w/grease for trolling applications.  If they are replaced unshielded, I use Cal's and also use Cal's to lube the free floating drag plate (where it contacts the spool pins), and an untra thin layer of cals througgout the drag chamber. I know the left side plate, right spool, then pinion and drive shaft bearings are more susceptable to water/salt intrusion issues..so logic might dictate that leaving the shields off of these bearings will give the water a way out. I've done a few reels w/open bearings and a few w/fully packed closed bearings...I'll check to see how they held up under heavy use in 6-12months when I service them again and see what seems to be working best in these reels.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2014, 08:50:55 PM by Tightlines666 » Logged

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RockyMtnKurt
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« Reply #20 on: March 14, 2014, 09:52:16 PM »

Awesome. I think my reel is in good shape and ready for my trip to the gulf next month. Thanks again.
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Rwade27
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« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2014, 01:37:02 PM »

Great post Tightlines . I just started servicing my own reels this winter. The reason i started servicing reels is because I had one older 30 international from the 80's that would not produce much drag at all without losing freespool. I took it to a penn repair place where they installed new dura drag upgrade and got it back with same problem. I figured it was time to start learning to service and repair myself. The first reel I ever cracked open was a newer 30 international two speed and with the help of this forum I got it serviced so for those that are intimidated by these reels, dont be. Just do one section of the reel at a time. I am only servicing my own reels which is about a dozen penn internationals ranging from 30 to 80 size so I am no pro but i wanted to add a few of my observations. My reels with the exception of the 30 from 1983 ( i think) are all from 2001 to 2012 years that were bought new and never opened up or serviced before. I know this is way too long to let these go without service. We are weekend warriors so they are not fished as much a charter boat but still had salt water use and more important salt water intrusion. I liked knowing these were all stock and no one had touched them except me. They all worked but some not too smooth.
     My first reel was the 2 speed 30vsw international that was fairly new and worked perfect prior to service. After a few attempts and broken minor parts It was ready for more fishing. For other rookies my mistakes were bending the ears on #23 in the schematic which is the handle screw from turning the wrench on #110a shifter base instead of holding it in place while removing#110c the shifter button retainer. My other mistake was removing the e-clip #52 from the drag cover pin #156a instead of leaving it and simply lifting and turning #156b to the side. I hope this helps someone thinking about getting into a newer international. You could make the same mistake on other models too like the 50 vsw and others with the plastic drag cover and same shifter.

  I also noticed the bearings seem to fail in the same location and order as Tightlines described. After seeing someone post the same results I found with bearings I can understand why they fail first in these areas except the right spool bearing. I did not expect that but I had a few with rough right spool bearings and all left spool bearings were good. I chose to pack all bearings with grease for maximum protection and then reshield them as these are only used for trolling and great freespool is not needed. The grease packed spool bearings really slow them down.

   Since these reels were all stock and never greased before I found it interesting the difference in how much grease Penn built them with. Some reels hardly had any grease on anything and the bead of grease they applied to the bearings missed spots, other reels had much excess grease oozing out everywhere and bearings packed pretty well. Also one of my 50vsw reels had an extra part that the builder must have dropped and not found. It was the e-clip for the pin to spin the drag cover loose. The  one used on the drag cover was there and this extra one ended up stuck in the grease on the back of the drag plate where the dogs engage. I noticed some reels had every screw without loctite on it with well greased threads and other reels had no grease on any threads anywhere. I had one 2002 50 T international that a reel clamp stud was seized into the frame that ended up breaking off and I spent a while drilling out and picking the treads out before tapping.

   Just wanted to share some of my observations and my mistakes to help someone hopefully. Might save you some parts. Anybody thinking of cracking these internationals open can do it. Just take your time and lay all the pieces out in order. One component at a time when you start out. The right side plate components are the trickiest i think. Plan to spent a few hours on them. It takes me a few evenings to do a 2speed with nothing wrong with it, just cleaning and greasing. Thanks for all the help from the fine members here!
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Rwade27
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« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2014, 01:46:14 PM »

Also wanted to add that of all the different versions of Internationals I have I prefer the design of the VSW over any others I own to service.  The others are SW, TW, T, and just plain old original international. I especially like the right side plate design better in these VSW models i also prefer the black plastic drag covers on them.
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Tightlines666
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« Reply #23 on: March 16, 2014, 02:05:43 PM »

As far as use of Loctite on the screws of these international IIs...
I've noticed Penn typically uses blue Loctite on the following screws:
-stand (6)
-clicker ratchet plate (4)
-drag disc(s) (4or8)
-drag cover(4)
-low speed drive gear (3)

I have only been using blue Loctite on ratchet plate and drag disc screws (when they need replacing, and are not upgraded to the single piece duradrag disc assembly), though I may consider using it on the gear screws too, since I have found some loose ones before.. Kinda torn here cause the pitch allows for greater torquing and stuck screws here are no good, conversely the screws are subject to alot of vibration and if they become loose it is definately problematic. 

I've also seen Loctite on the screws holding the high speed gear retainer to the side plate (2), and holding the cam housing to the side plate (3)...I don't like Loctite on any of these small screws that marry to the sideplate.

Another thing I'd mention is if you can, it pays to pull the bridge and grease it throughly when servicing since it can and likely will become more problematic as time and corrosion proceed. 

Also, I have been experimenting with using a thin coating of corrosion X HD on all metal surfaces inside the drag area, in lue of a thin coat of Cal's.  It seems to create good lubricity and provide corrosion protection while staying thin and not affecting freespool or other performance issues related to parts contacting one another. 

Just a few more thoughts that came to mind here.
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Rwade27
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« Reply #24 on: March 16, 2014, 05:30:13 PM »

I was not sure what to think about loctite either. I chose not to use any at all in any of my reels. I will admit that the three main gear screws were a tiny bit loose on two of my internationals. The advantage I have is these are not customers reels that will be upset with a failure as I am just trying to keep my own fleet going for now. I will service these reels every winter now so time will tell if any screws back out. Like I said though I am just a weekend warrior using these internationals from May to October. I can't wait to see how my first round of serviced reels do offshore this summer. In my estimation from testing in the shop the drags feel better than prior to service but the freespool is a little worse actually. This is just due to me packing the spool bearings full of grease. For my use they only need to frespool good enough to drop back to marlin trolling 6 knots or faster. I was amazed at the difference oiled spool bearings made in my smaller bay trolling rods. I tried reel x and tsi321 and even the levelwind reels freespool great. Its snowing right now here in Maryland and this fishing talk is getting me excited ! One month till striper season opens.
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Tightlines666
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« Reply #25 on: March 17, 2014, 01:26:23 AM »

Just finished up a service on a 1990-50SW that had been heavily used, and well cared for for a number of years, then stored for awhile.  Overall the reel was in good condition and I decided to replace the worn clicker plate, pinion bearing (starting to get rough), Bellevilles (lost some springiness), and rod clamp bolts (bent/missing threads). Converted drag to wet, throughly cleaned all bearings (dipped in TSI 301, dried and packed with penn blue (left plate bearing left open). Corrosion X HD on all metal parts inside heat shield and spool, and penn blue on all other parts.  Reel X in handle, buttons, and drive sleeve.  Conversion from all thin to thick Belleviles, arranged stock ()(), increased the drag curve slightly and allowed for removal of single thrust washer, which brough effectively fished drag range to middle travel on preset.

2.5hrs total time, $40 total parts cost.  

Reel is smooth, and performs as expected upon completion, w/a slightly steeper fairly linear drag curve.  Customer is fishing str8 60lb ANDE monster mono, and uses it primarily to catch Mahi, Ono, and Spearfish... trolling skirts and/or dead bait

Update...first day on the water, the charter boat owner's son caught a nice Striped Marlin on the reel as part of a quad that hit this AM.  Performed flawlessly...talk about trial by fire Smiley


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« Last Edit: March 17, 2014, 10:17:45 PM by Tightlines666 » Logged

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Rothmar2
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« Reply #26 on: March 17, 2014, 02:23:39 AM »

What a great thread this is, fantastic info.
Will have to remind someone I know with an 80 STW II that his reel is due a service. Reading this has me inspired to work on it again.
Last time was new pinion bearing and bellevilles, converted drag to wet. Will look into shimming this time 'round after asking if he is happy with the drag curve.
Certainly nothing to be intimidated by, these reels. Work on them section by section. Then bolt all back together.

Love the old Inters!
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Rwade27
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« Reply #27 on: March 17, 2014, 03:55:26 AM »

Tightlines, when you say you are switching Bellevilles from thin to thick are these Penn parts or aftermarket Bellevilles? I bought a couple of extra Bellevilles from PennParts for an old 30 Inter I had trouble with but I was wondering where you were sourcing these Bellevilles if you dont mind sharing. Thanks -Rick
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Tightlines666
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« Reply #28 on: March 17, 2014, 12:22:28 PM »

I've been picking mine up from a local source, who happens to have a good supply of both thick snd thin washers for most of the international IIs.  I'm pretty sure pennparts has em too depending on the model most have seperate parts numbers for the heavy (thick) vs. the light (thin) Bellevilles.  The attached pic shows the 2 different ones for the 50 size internationals (note: my el cheapo caliper is only accurate to +\- 0.1mm).  You may want to first review the schematics, then talk to someone at Penn or Scott's to see if they can send you what you need.


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« Last Edit: March 17, 2014, 03:22:46 PM by Tightlines666 » Logged

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Tightlines666
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« Reply #29 on: March 17, 2014, 09:22:21 PM »

Thought it might be useful to provide a list of Belleville washers by Penn part numbers, and models listed as using them (stock):

Part#/models/Heavy or Light?/washer thickness (+/-0.1mm)
18-6/6,12,12W/Light *No longer available
18-12T/12LT,12T,12H,16VS/Light
18H-300LD/12VS,12VSX,TRQ300LD/Heavy
18-60/16S/Light
18-16VS/16VS,16VSX(old+new)/Heavy
18-20/16S,20,30/Light
18-30/20T,30T,30S,30VW,30VSW(old+new)/Light
18-30TW/30SW,30TW,30VSX/Heavy
18H-30VS/?/Heavy
18L-30VS/?/Light
18-50TW/50,50W,50T,50TW,50S,50SW,50VW (older+newer),50VSW,50VSX/Heavy/1.2mm
18-50W/same models as 18-50TW/Light/<1.0mm
18-80W/All 80s, 70VS(older+newer),80VSW/Heavy/1.25mm*I think all new parts ordered are typically heavy, but many older int and IIs have Light/<1.1mm not sure where to source light washers since they have same part #
18-130/130,130H,130S,130ST,130VSX/Heavy/1.25mm

As you can see, there are many different options available for penn bellevilles.  There is some overlap between models on which of these washers can be utilized.  If the the inner and outer diameters match that of the stock bellevilles they can be used.  This provides many different options for some customization of drag curves to desired.  To this ends, it might prove useful to have a list of more exact measurements for uncompressed(h), compressed thicknesses(t), max force(f), as well as inner (ID) and outer diameters(OD).  There are some measurements that can be found elsewhere on this board of a few different belleville washers if you do a search.  I was thinking it might be useful to have a dedicated thread to Bellevilles (like the bearing thread)?  If you know the specs you can source Bellevilles directly from McMaster-Carr.

Hope this helps.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2014, 12:07:00 AM by Tightlines666 » Logged

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