Serviced 6 Internationals this week...a few observations

Started by Tightlines667, March 13, 2014, 08:57:38 PM

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Rwade27


Tightlines667

Bump.
The saga continues.  I have serviced am additional 4-130STs, 1-130H, 3-80STWs, 1-80, and 1-80SW since my last post.  Any questions about my recent findings..just ask.
Hope springs eternal
for the consumate fishermen.

Tightlines667

Just finished up complete service if 4 80-STWs 1999-2000 models.  These were very straight forward.  One was heavily used w/a bit of internal corrosion and salt intrusion, as well as some wear on the drag plates (inner plate seems to typically wear faster/more then outer in these.  But I finished complete service on all 4 including full machine stripping and spooling in around 9hrs.  The reels needed all new drive shaft bearings (8 total), all new pinion bearings (4), and 3 additional bearings, I replaced all Bellevilles from all thin to 2 thin 2 thick with the stock ()() config (customer wanted to fish straight 130lb mono), a few screws, and 3 handle lock plates.  Total parts cost for all 4 was $398.52.  No real headaches, or surprises and I actually got these done in roughly half the time it typically takes me (~5hrs/reel).  With the amount of time I have been spending in cleaning parts, I'm considering investing in a 3 gal or larger capacity sonic cleaner, I think I like the Fisher.  Any questions, just ask.
Hope springs eternal
for the consumate fishermen.

Shark Hunter

John,
If I ever decide to get an International, I am personally sending to you Brother!
Your Expertise is nothing short of Amazing! ;)
Life is Good!

Tightlines667

#34
Since my last update, I serviced a 'like new' condition 130ST that had the titanium handle arm, and rod braces.  This reel still had penn blue factory grease and appeared to have never been used.  There was no internal corrosion present, and no signs if wear on the alert ratchet, the drags, or the outter drag plate.  It already had relatively new line, as well.  I spent 2 hrs in a complete disassembly/degrease, relube & rebuild.  I replaced the Bellevilles (since it had obviously been stored with the lever engaged), converted the drag over to a wet style with Cal's, and fully packed all the bearings.  2 weeks later the reel sold locally for a modest $150 profit.
Hope springs eternal
for the consumate fishermen.

Tightlines667

#35
This week, I got a great deal on a pair on 80STWs in 'like new' condition.  The first was a 1991 model, the second a 2001 model.  I spent about 7hrs performing the complete service on both reels.  They were both in excellent overall condition.  I replaced the Bellevilles in both reels, and gave the first reel new drive shaft bearings, and a pinion bearing as well, though they were just beginning to show signs if roughness.  The first reel had a little but of corrosion/light rust on the Bellevilles, inner drive shaft bearing, and high speed main gear.  There was a bit if WD-40 or similar varnish on some of the reels right side parts (including the 2-speed shift mech., and some gunk in one side if the drag chamber, and a slight but if corrosion under the reel foot.  The second reel had no corrosion, but a but if dried grease, and some bearings were basically dry.  Both reels got the full AT treatment and are currently available for sale.  I invested about 7hrs and roughly $65 in parts, another $50 in line.  If your interested in these reels check out the for sale section...

http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=12334.0

1991 model...
Hope springs eternal
for the consumate fishermen.

Tightlines667

Second 80STW/2001 model...
Hope springs eternal
for the consumate fishermen.

Rothmar2

G'day John,

Firstly, thank you for all the detailed information you have included in this thread. Please keep adding to it when you can.
I recently had a 50SW II, that I just couldn't seem to get the drag progression to come good. Basically, when coming back from strike of approx 8kg (the owner fishes 24kg mono on this reel), the drag pressure comes off very quick, and you end up with a fair bit of travel on the lever where the reel is in free spool, way before hitting the actual free spool stop (if that makes sense). I tried many different combinations of bellevilles, shims, and I did manage to make it marginally better by sourcing some aftermarket bellevilles from a small parts supplier. These had a slightly higher "deflect able" height than any of the Penn bellevilles available for this reel. These aftermarket ones were about 0.1mm higher each, so configured ()() I ended up with a Belleville stack around 0.4mm wider. This managed to reduce the free spool arc a bit, but I was still unhappy to have to hand the reel back to the owner this way (he needed it for a trip). With this stack in place, the side effect is, there is not much adjustment with the preset dial backed right off, before the strike setting goes beyond 8kg.
I checked out the alignment of the drag cam housing and it does not appear to have moved, and I also renewed the cam pins. I really would like to be able to get this reel working as it should, only dropping into free-spool on the free-spool stop, and ramping up nice and smooth to an 8kg strike setting.
Thanks in advance for any advice you may be able to give me.

Tightlines667

First off, just a reminder that you need to make sure to follow the manufacture's instructions, or those posted on this site for synching the gears by adjusting the position of the dogs on these SW models.

Next regarding your drag curve problem, I need to ask if the longer area on the start of lever movement of freespool is there as you first move the lever forward, or only after you've had it forward, and are backing it off. 

If it's the later your spool shaft is likely binding somewhere, either due to being bent, or marring/finding where it passes through the one or both pinion bearings, or possibly on the inner drag plate (less likely).  This type of binding will show a characteristic jump as the spool shifts to the right when/if the binding releases.  This is usually causes a reel to not want to drop into freespool, so is not likely your problem.

More likely is that you need to increase the space taken up between the pinion and spool bearing.  Have you tried a few more 0.3mm shims w/the Belleviles to increase the stack height by 1.00 total?  Sounds like you've played around with the spacing shimming quite a bit already, but it may take a bit more tinkering to get it right.

Another thing to check is to make sure your cam assembly is working properly when installed in the reel, and there is no binding or jumping.  A picture of the cam and cam follower might be useful if you are experiencing problems here.  I know there are 2 different types of cam follower designs on these reels.  Also make sure the cam pins ride evenly and smoothly on the cam itself, and that the pins ride up and down in the cam housing smoothly as well.

How much (how many turns) is your preset knob adjusted to at your desired and effective max (before loss of freespool) settings?  With a stock Belleville ()() set up typically the preset would be about 1.5 to 2 turns in for typical strike drag setting to max effective drag setting.  Also, ideally you want negligible drag (w/lever at strike) when the preset is backed all the way off.

Not sure if that helps?  But keep tinkering with it and you should get it sorted out.



Hope springs eternal
for the consumate fishermen.

Rothmar2

Thanks for the reply John. The first scenario you described with the drag lever is what's happening. There is no binding at all, it happens when the lever is moved from free to increase, or from strike back. Only really getting progression of drag from about a little under a half of the arc between Freespool and Strike. The rest the lever arc is virtual Freespool. Only seem to get noticeable drag ramp across this whole sector when strike is well beyond 10kg (didn't measure with scales, but certainly much greater than 8kg's). As the owner fishes under GFAA rules by his own choice, it's not really practical for him to fish the reel the way it currently is, but he is winging it.
I'm away overseas at work until Xmas, but will get the reel back and get some pix up when I'm able.
I certainly have played around a lot with shims, I've had them in every conceivable spot, and in many combinations. The drag cam bore has no pitting or burrs. The follower pins I renewed, thinking these might have been the problem.
I'm very interested about the different cams you mentioned. I wasn't aware there were two cam types for these reels. As the current owner bought it second hand, he is not sure of the history of this reel, other than when I first opened it up, my impression was it had been reasonably looked after, all except for a stainless self tapper placed in where the long side plate screw goes on the full drag stop.
I really would like to get this reel tuned up properly.

Tightlines667

#40
I just finished servicing a Penn International 80-W made in 1971.  The customer just started a charter buisness and wanted this reel fixed up so he could use it as his back-up rig.  It was in pretty rough shape corrosion wise, and took awhile to clean up.  The bridge screws, a stand screw, and the two rail screws were corroded in place and needed replacing.  The handle assembly was also too far gone and was replaced with a new one.  All 4 bearings were in rough shape.  I replaced the pinion with a new one, and the other 3 with reconditioned/lightly used ones, the clicker ratchet plate was replaced, and shimmed up (since I could not obtain a new clicker pawl for this model).  I also replaced the Bellevilles and used the stock ()() config.  I replaced/ upgraded the drag to a new inner (80STW), and outter (70VSX) dura drags.  The floating plate was badly scored, but I could not find a replacement so I reconditioned it with 200 grit sandpaper.  This was a lot more labor intensive then if I had access to a lathe.  The chrome also wore off of the plastic in the drag lever (left it as is per customer's instructions. I also replaced the badly corroded drive shaft (gear stud) and shimmed it (0.3 inside, and 0.3mm outside) for a tight fit.  All told, I spent 6.5hrs on this one, with a total parts cost of $228 (I charge half price for used/reconditioned parts).  The drag is smooth and has a good stock curve,  the gears are in good condition, the reel cranks smoothly, the reel's freespool is not the best due to using the plastic race style bearings in the spool and packing em with grease.  The customer was happy with the final result.
Hope springs eternal
for the consumate fishermen.

Tightlines667

#41
I just cracked open a 130ST that I serviced in March 2014.  The customer has been fishing it heavily on a popular charter boat all season, and he complained about the drag surging a bit when loaded up during a prolonged battle.  It caught several large fish previously without any noticable problems.  

I replaced the 2 drive shaft, pinion, left spool bearings, and 2 Bellevilles, and added a 0.3mm shim to the left spool plate when I serviced it last.  I opened the old bearings (that I kept) and put them in the spool.  I also made a note that the clicker plate and pawl were somewhat worn and should be replaced at the next service interval.  I could not replicate any drag-related (or other) noticable problems on my benchtop.  

Overall the reel was in excellent condition,and the grease I had used stayed in place everywhere I put it.  There was minimal evidence of water intrusion (a bit to the outter bridge, and outter drive shaft bearing), and the only screws that had loosen up at all were the 3 main gear plate screws (I will Loctite these in the future).  The drags (that had been previously treated w/Cal's) appeared to be in excellent condition overall.  The pinion and left plate bearings both showed some noticeable roughness (despite having been replaced and fully packed with grease).  The Bellevilles still appeared in good overall condition (and measured just about 0.15mm less then when installed new).  I cleaned everything up, replaced the pinion and left side plate bearings, clicker ratchet, and pawl, repacked the bearings, reconditioned and regressed the drag plates, lubed everything else as appropriate and put her back together.  3 hrs labor, less then $70 in parts, and it should be good for another season.  I am a little perplexed as to why the drag was surging when loaded up and hot, and believe this reel could probably fished a while longer before needing a service.

Update....

After crackimg the reel and messing around with it some more, I was able to determine that this reel needed a new inner drag plate because it was slightly warped, I decided to replace the slightly marred fliating drag disc as well.  Then I noticed the spoop shaft was slightly bent with about a 0.5mm wobble apparent.  This was likely
the reason why the drag was a but surgy under heavy load. I ordered a new pinion gear.  So new parts cost is $270.  I also decided to add a small washer/spacer to the outside portion of the clicker pawl in order to increase the clicker volume.  Though this means the parts will likely wear faster.  When something isn't quite right its best to keep problem sopving until you find the true culprit.

Note:  this is the second 130 I've found with a bent spool shaft. 
Hope springs eternal
for the consumate fishermen.

Tightlines667

I just finished up a complete service of 3 Penn International 130H reels.  These reels were in pretty good condition given their oversll age.  I upgraded the drags on 2 w/Duradrag replacement discs, replaced 10 total bearings, 3 new drive shaft felt washers, new preset washers, all new Bellevilles, a stand screw, 2 Quasrent screws (retapped), and modified an older International II 80W clicker assembly to replace one missing parts.  There was a bit of corrosion on the bellevilles, one main gear, and Some bearings (right spool, drive shaft, and tailplate).  I spent 13hours in these reels.  Total parts cost was $516.  The sonic cleaner worked well.  I bought a metal basket to hold the parts on these larger reels.
Hope springs eternal
for the consumate fishermen.

Alto Mare

Very nice John, and I thought my workbenches were sloppy ;D
Forget about all the reasons why something may not work. You only need to find one good reason why it will.

foakes

Boy, you really know what you are doing with those Internationals, John!

Great job --

When are you going to start blueprinting these?

I think you have the expertise, knowledge, and experience.

And Cal needs a little competition.

Best,

Fred
The Official, Un-Authorized Service and Restoration Center for quality vintage spinning reels.

D-A-M Quick, Penn, Mitchell, and ABU/Zebco Cardinals

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