Stand up trolling blanks, cutting blanks and blank characteristics

[Reinaard van der Vossen]

I'm considering to build a new light trolling rod which should withstand approx 30 lbs of drag max. More common is 20 lb of drag but there should be some reserve.

The 20-50 lbs range seems to be most approprate.

The most average size of a stand up trolling rod is approx 5 ft 6". If I look at alluminium butts than the size 2 (2#) is just short of 18 inch and the nr 1# not much shorter for the short straight butts.

Most stand up trolling blanks are 5'6" so in order to have a rod of 5'6" I would need to cut of 18" (minus the overlap where the rod goes into the ferrule) or even more if I want a really short stroker of 5 ft.

Is it common to cut of this much of a blank or am I just looking for the wrong blanks?

I noticed there are 4'10"blanks but these are way heavier most of the time.

Second question that I have is the type of blank. In general for stand up trolling rods you want a reasonable fast taper blank which has a relatively easy bend tip but gets more back bone towards the mid and butt section. This as opposed to long trolling rod blanks for chairs who are stiff all over but have a slow taper.

I also have seen some blanks with a relative fast taper (thin tip & strong body) that are designated as jigging rods but might in fact have a nice taper for a light stand up trolling rod. Something with a 17,5 mm but and 3,2 mm tip seems very well suited as doing trolling work although I might have to cut off a part of the tip if they are too sensitive.

Who has experience with these type of rods or can shed some light on the thoughts and the aspects that are important in the rod selection.

The rod will replace the rod that broke on the last trip. The reel will be the little omoto Q 16 (which is quite strong for a 16 size) and the line will be more than 500 yards of 60 or 65 lb braid with a similar strength topshot. In the future maybe a small okuma makaira like a 16 size (or maybe a 15 size) might be paired to the rod so maybe it should withstand a little more dragpower. I do not want to go as heavy as a 30-80 rod because I already have something like that paired to a makaira 30.

[conchydong]

 I found these economical 4'6" Gorilla blanks sold by Mudhole. They are actually the former Lamiglass International blanks (made offshore)that Mudhole must have bought and re-branded. The 4' 6" blanks are designed to fit a number 2 ferrule perfectly. I am in the process of acquiring parts to build the heavier (50-80) model to fish around 22-lbs-25lbs at strike. Just threw it out there for something else for you to consider.

http://www.mudhole.com/Rod-Building/Gorilla-Offshore-Series-Blanks_2

[SoCalAngler]

I don't want to go into which blanks are better because that will change depending on which blanks you have access to.

I do want to say a couple of things though, first why are you going with a aluminum butt? Do you plan on switching the butt section from a strait butt to a bent butt for use in a fighting chair and being able to switch it back as needed? This is the only reason I'd use an aluminum butt.

Second a rod rated to fish 20 lbs of drag will be way too light for fishing 30 lbs of drag and vice versa a 30 lb drag rod will be too heavy for 20 lbs of drag. Fishing 20 lbs on a 30 lb rated rod can be done but it will not fish as well and be as forgiving as using the correct rod. IMO you should be looking at two different setups to cover both drags.

The jump from 20 lbs of drag (60 lb test max) to 30 lbs of drag (100lb test or higher) is too big of a leap for one rod to fish both well.

[Jeri]

Hi Reinaard,

The older regime for rod blank designs was to quote the line weights that you were looking to use, rather than specify by drag loading, as the line class pretty much determined the drag loading. Using the tried and tested 1/3rd rule between line strength and drag loading.

So, for a 60-65lb main line, you would be looking at a blank designed for say 50-80lb class work. Then the rod blank would have sufficient tip strength and backbone to cope with the loads applied.

From what you are looking to do, this would probably be your best avenue for blanks, as anything lighter will be overloaded by the drag load you are looking to apply – and then either end up a very dead action or even break. In this situation it would not be the fault of the blank, as it would have been used beyond its designed specification.

The fact that we are now seriously moving away from nylon, folks are looking, and rightly so, for blanks with more tip action to compensate for the lack of stretch in the braid over former nylon lines. Here lies the problem, and perhaps you are on the right track looking at 'stand-up' blanks, with their softer tip action.

So, at this point a 'stand-up' blank rated for 50-80lb class work would be appropriate for the line that you will be using, with a possible step down in line size towards 50lb braid, you might well look at blanks in the 30-50lb rating, which would be softer than the 30-80 that you already have.

Another point to consider is how 'heavy' you are going to build the rod, as ring frame styles effect how much stiffness they impart into the blank, and the final product. Heavy duty rings will obviously impart a much stiffer action into the design. Lighter weight rings of a more flexible frame shape will allow the blank to retain a lot of the original flexibility of the blank. Basically, when you whip rings onto a blank, you create a number of 'stiffening points', and the ring designs then effect how stiff those 'stiffening points' are.

Your point about using aluminium butts and having to cut the blanks is a serious issue, and a possible alternative route might be to consider a through butt construction like the Stuart 'Tuff Butt' system, where a hard construction butt and reel seat were build onto the full length of blank – so that if you want a 5'-6" rod, you buy a 5'-6" blank, and just build the 'tuff butt' over it. This would suit the desire to use the rod in a trolling situation.

A last point in your thought process about cutting length off the tip of a jigging blank, this route is fraught with problems. The tip design on the majority of blanks is a very important section in the design, and shortening from the tip is potentially a route to destroy any action that you previously had. As a rod builder, the last place that I would ever shorten a rod from is the tip, rather go for the next heavier model to get a stiffer tip section, and then shorten from the bottom.


Hope that all helps.


Cheers from sunny Africa


Jeri

[Shark Hunter]

I am a stand up Blank Fisherman. As much as I like the portability of a detachable butt setup. I'm with Jeri on this one. Through the handle construction is a better alternative. I have several 80 to 130lb stand up rods that are all one piece rods. I think you need to look into Rainshadow Blanks. For the Money, I think they have the best Blank available for the money. Next would be Seeker and Calstar. In reverse order of price and Quality. I don't fish like the normal guy. I am after Big Sharks from the Beach. as far as cutting that much from a Blank. I don't think its a good idea. You need a Blank that doesn't need to be cut to make your final product.
I am fishing 12 and 14/0 Senators with 130lb mono. I fish with a Harness and plate. I pretty much am using a Broomstick that won't break, because the reels I'm fishing with are capable of 30 to 35lbs of drag. I want to put the Muscle on them.

[Capt Ahab]

Hi Reinaard,



The fact that we are now seriously moving away from nylon, folks are looking, and rightly so, for blanks with more tip action to compensate for the lack of stretch in the braid over former nylon lines. Here lies the problem, and perhaps you are on the right track looking at 'stand-up' blanks, with their softer tip action.

Right on - the fact that you are trolling you want to consider what blank will troll best - i personally think a 6' or 6.6' rod works far better especially for running spreader bars and chuggers - the longer (and softer) tip helps avoid skipping and jerking


Same thing when we use 'hoo rigs - again, with the braided line the longer rod allows more shock absorption

Plus - you have a bigger lever when locked into a pivot point - (ie chair or belt)


What do you plan on trolling, what speed and for what

That will help you determine a blank

[Reinaard van der Vossen]

Wow, Gentleman, that is very good information.

Everything used to be much simpeler when a 50 size reel was supposed to have 50 pund test line on it.

I will try to elaborate on a couple of things, especially the intended use.

The rod will be fished with a mono topshot. Depending on size at least 50 meters but maybe more in the future.  I currently have 80 meters (90 yards) of 65 lb mono directly on the spool arbor under the braid but as I lost half of the braid I think I will change that. The mono backing under the braid will go or will be shortened. It was originally to have good grip on the spool arbor and to heve some more flex in the line when getting spooled. This was done before I knew how to secure braid directly on the arbor withouth the risk of slipping. So in future there will be a longer mono topshot which will make it better for trolling. If I can I will make it at least 150 yard or more.

This is a light trolling reel (16 size) but yet reasonable powerfull and with good line capacity. Over the mono there was 500 yards of 65 lb powerpro and then a short 40-50 yard topshot again. I used to have 40 lb braid on it but at the higher drag settings the line was burrying itself in the spool. That was why i changed it to 65 lb braid (and I could fit plenty of it on the reel) If I have to replace the braided line it might be a bit lighter, maybe 55 or 60 lb

I have opened the reel and the reel is fine except the plastic cap on the dragplate cover (it melted). I will post pictures in the appropriate topic (omoto Q16) Note that we got almost spooled although we were in high speed pursuit so the fish had run more than 400-450 yards

The drag requirements are basically fish driven but with some reserve. This is a reel for light trolling on skipjacks, albacore, dolphin and mediterranean spearfish. When bluefin comes into the mix chances are that you can only fight it properly when it is a relative small one. One of the reasons why I am looking for the rod as I do is because the rod broke on a bluefin and although the fish was big the rod should not have broken under the circumstances. With the right rod I might have had a chance. If the rod would have been able to withstand 20 lb dragforce it would not have been broken, at least not at that moment.
This has led me to the drag requireents of 20 lb but with an upward potential of the rod for a little more (30 lb?), especially when the line is peeling of the spool  


Now the Rod that I'm looking for will be primariliy a light trolling rod. That is why I choosed the aluminium butt section. Firstly it will be easier to get out of the rod holder and secondly it will make the rod more transportable (because it is removable). I realize that a slick butt or tuff butt will be also easy to get out of the rod holder and that is still an option but preferably on a two piece rod. EVA does not sound to good to me in the rod holder (for the reargrip).

It can also be a relative short rod as in most cases I have had a clear transom and could do with a short rod maximizing the leverage. I would liek the rod to be designed for clear and free accessible transoms. If I enter into a situation where that is not the case than I no I have less than pefect conditions. I'm looking for something shorter than  5'6" and maybe even shorter than 5.

The longer the rod gets the softer the tip would need to be to put the leverage on my side.

I have a tendency for this lighter rod for ringed guides but doe not rule out rollers yet

I hope this helps identifying what I'm looking for but thank you so far for your help and advice. I can already see a little bit of fog lifting.  

Any body any ideas on jigging blanks for light trolling? Is see that more and more, also by very experienced big game anglers, but I have no idea if that is a good idea.

edit: I have a pinnacle 30-80 rod with a makaira 30 on it for the slightly heavier work and a 60-100 with a mak 50W, hence my initial thoughts for a 20-50 type
   

[Jeri]

Hi Reinaard,

Sounds like you are trying to fix a problem with the reel, by changing the line. Braid burying itself is an issue of how tight you load the braid, compacted braid of just about any size should not bury itself under load.

If this is the root cause of your problem, then go back to 50lb braid and look seriously at a 30-50 stand-up blank options. The 50lb braid would give you the desired 20lb of drag. The concept of slick or tuff butts, is that the lower section is not EVA, but a nylon type material, and is exceptionally easy to get out of roll holders, even under load. I appreciate that this does not help your travelling issues with a 2 piece rod, but a 5'-6" stand-up blank is not so long, especially if you can do what you are looking for with the rod, so make a plan for transporting a 1 piece.

Another option here might be to build the rod as a 1 piece, and then get a good rod builder to split the rod just above the handle and insert a solid carbon ferrule. I have just done this with a 50-80lb marlin stand-up rod. This splitting of blanks is only something that I would recommend that you get a well established rod builder to do, as it needs a very precise cutting of the solid carbon ferrule – the tapers need to match the inside of the blank very precisely.

I would avoid going down the route of a jigging blank, as these blanks are designed to be very flexible in the upper 1/3rd, and in a trolling situation this would mean that the rod would be permanently hooped over, so why not just us a shorter rod, as you will get no benefit from the jigging blank.

I personally think that to get a blank for trolling, then stand-up and of such a light class weight, will probably be a serious challenge, and then to get something down as short as 5'-0" long, is probably going to be improbable.

As to considering rollers, unless you go down the route of some of the light weight Aftco (single foot) nylon rollers, then you are only going to stiffen up the blank more than the original concept desires. Rollers by their nature are stiffer than most rings, and as mentioned earlier, you are looking to preserve the action of the original blank, not dampen it down to a rigid stick. If friction and heat build up is a concern, then go the route of SiC rings or even the new Torzite from Fuji – they apparently have the absolute lowest coefficient of friction and as such will protect your braid.

I would suggest that you look at some of the lighter Calstar blanks for your need, and even contact them to see what they recommend. A rod to do light game, and then to switch up to cover big game is asking a lot of the blank.

I appreciate the problem of fish not being able to read the name on the side of the lure caught a 480lb (est) Blue Marlin on a 20lb set up while trolling a Sailfish lure – eventually it came to the boat for release, just took a lot of work and patience. I also appreciate that Marlin don't fight like Bluefin, but at the end of the day, light tackle is not designed to cope with heavy beasts, otherwise it becomes heavy tackle.

Hope that all helps.


Cheers from sunny Africa


Jeri

[Reinaard van der Vossen]

Jeri. I appreciate your input. I'm learning a lot as I go forward and it is with the help of you guys. Nice work with that marlin on 20# gear. That is a real achievement

Yes, i could size down the braid. The 65# powerpro was spooled under significant load and did not get burried in the spool. I could do that also with a lighter line. The reason the 65# braid was on there is because the reel can supply 30# of drag when full and I could get plenty of line on the reel anyway. Although the drag can supply this number the heatdistribution/dissipation does not match the power of the reel. The BFT almost spooled us several times at high speed and that must have generated a lot of heat. The reel was not hot to the touch but the melted plastic plate says it all.

The construction limits it to more or less 20# and not 30# at least not for long runs.

I will start looking for 30-50 blanks/rods

 

[Shark Hunter]

Just a suggestion, but I think you need a Seeker Classic.

[Ron Jones]

Even trolling, #20 of drag seems a lot for albacore and skipjack. I understand that bluefin are in the mix and sometimes are big but do you really want to gear up for that fish if it isn't what you are after? I'd build something like a Calstar 6455B with a tuff butt and medium rings and go fishing. That blank is still heavier than I want for an albie rod, but I really like fishing light.
Ron

[Reinaard van der Vossen]

Ron,

I know and I agree. It is not that I will set the drag to 20# at full spool when trolling albies. I will probably set the drag to 7 or 9 # or something in that range. Maybe a little higher when large skipjacks are around and the same applies when larger dolphins are around.

Now the chance that a large bluefin bites is relatively minimal but the smaller schooly ones sometimes do and they sometimes hold up with the albies and skippies. Of course I could take the rod out but the intent was fishing and it should work in some range and not at a single drag figure. I realize that there is always an optimum for a rod where the bent in the rod will give most leverage to the fisherman with still some to spare.

The most optimal solution would be: light to medium bend in the rod with 7-10 # Medium bend with 15. Maximum bend for fishing 20# and will not break before 30# although the last might be more of a "safety" measure than a way of pleasantly fishing.

I have a light to medium jigging rod (250 grams jig max) that is a little similar. It has a (to my opinion) maximum fishable drag of 18-20# where the rod is bend as much that I would like to under fishing conditions yet it will not break with 16 kg of drag. For those 16 kg the rod is hanging down from the but and not really fishable. With 5 to 10# of drag it still bends nice and is a joy to fish

Something similar I'm looking for in a light trolling rod but than with a more trolling character of the blank   

[fishhead69]

I am with you on that one Shark Hunter. A Seeker Classic or equivalent Calstar 5 1/2 foot to 6 foot rated according to the pound test line you are using. If you are fishing 60 pound test line then I would get a rod rated 50 to 100 pound. It is better to have a rod with more backbone especially when you are fishing for big fish.

[Patudo]

I'm not sure it is realistic to expect to apply 30 lbs of drag on a rod light enough to enjoy atlantic bonito and skipjack with.  That is like requiring a go-kart (lightweight, nimble, etc) to stay with a 911 turbo on the straight. The weight of the engine required robs you of the pleasure of enjoying a light and agile vehicle.  You say that the chances of hooking a bluefin are minimal: so my recommendation would be to pick a blank that will let you enjoy the fish you are targeting.  If a bigger fish climbs on, so be it, and if you think it's happening too often, break out heavier gear.  

I find that a longer live bait or casting style blank is more enjoyable for playing those types of fish (small tunas, dolphin fish etc) than a regulation trolling or stand-up blank, and matches better with smaller reels. Leverage is not an issue for such light rods.  It is absolutely possible to troll the small, low resistance lures you would fish for your target species with jigging blanks. You should try the action of a few different blanks/rods and select the one you like best.  

Aluminium butts are unnecessary on such light rods and only add unwanted weight.  If a two-piece rod is needed, ferruled reel seats are available from Fuji (stainless/plastic) and Pacific Bay (aluminium) and in combination with a hard plastic slick butt, will be fine.  Line selection for your size 16 reel is a bit of a different topic (as is how to deal with a bigger fish if one happens) but frankly the setup you are now using seems fine: just fish the reel like it was spooled with lighter line.  As johndtuttle stated in his excellent post "the modern lever drag reel and you" (http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=11597.0) being able to dial in x lbs of drag is one thing, but being able to sustain that level of drag on a hard running fish is quite another.