Penn Reels - just as you find them

Started by Superhook, October 30, 2015, 10:43:36 PM

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tennesseeman and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Penn Chronology

QuoteHere are a couple of first gen ( handle at 5 O'clock ) Senators with the external drags. First one is a Schultz Game Fisher.  Second one is a regular Penn, note that the new logo in on this reel. I feel that they went to the external drags in 1940. I also think that you don't see many first gen reels with the external drags as they started to make second gen 9/0 reels ( handle at 7 O'clock ) in 1940.

Brian,

What do you base your timeline on? I feel that the external drag 9/0's are post war and the first generation 9/0's were made after the war for a short time. Saying that second generation build styles were made for the 9/0 size, pre-war, is a stretch, unless you have some documentation I do not know about.  I have three Penn 9/0's, all with the old fashioned logos and one Shultz Gamefisher 9/0. All of them are internal drags, early build style reels. I know the external drags were installed into first generation build reels; but, I feel it was done after World War II.

Oceanreels

     I base the  time line on the information in the catalogs and from my observations.  In the 1938 and 1939 catalogs they refer to the external drags as "The 12/0 Senator Star Drag". See page 9 in Cat. #6, 1938 and page 18 in #7 1939. In 1940 they now refer to the external drags as "The Senator Star Drag"  they also had images of 7 senators, in 1938 & 39 they only had 3. They images of the 9/0 & 4/0 now  show the external drags.  Last thing is that in 1941 Penn for the first time state that the forward rod brace was on the 9/0. They don't show it in the images. I have only seen 1 first gen 9/0 with the forward rod brace and it was the one that just sold on eBay. That reel has a lot of updated parts added to it so the chance of those rod braces being there when it was made are slim to none, IMHO.    http://www.ebay.com/itm/1st-Generation-Penn-9-0-Senator-Reel-Rare-Configuration-Late-1930s-Must-See-/151859548079?hash=item235b88cfaf%3Ag%3ARooAAOSw%7EbFWKp7t&nma=true&si=5b8g8LBlEbmFUqSItWjCMYKoT0k%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557     I have 2 second gen 9/0 that do not have the forward braces and have the small harness braces.
   When I look at that it makes me think that they had the external drags by 1940. But you have to remember that this  is the opinion of The Insane One. ;D
Brian Purrone  Member ORCA
http://myfishingreels.weebly.com/

Tightlines667

This is good stuff.

I wonder about cases of older mold plugs being used in newer style molds (i.e. non model # plug in a 9/0 Senator with front rod brace).  This would seem to be a somewhat  common practice with regards to trade reels whoes production spanned the transition at the factory.  But the occurance in standard Penn reels seems likely to have occurred during a transition period where the old plug was used in the newly developed mold for a short period before the new mold plug arrived?

Using up older parts in a newer reel makes sense, as does someone upgrading an older reel with newer parts, but it's these cases where there is a mix of new and old traits in a single reel or dustict part priduced fir that reel, that seem to suggest a transitional period at the factory. 

I may be confusing myself here. 
Hope springs eternal
for the consumate fishermen.

foakes

My understanding, from Mike, Ray, and other experts who have researched Penn extensively, is --

Penn wasted very little.

Since a majority of parts would fit the same reel for many years -- there was no reason to not use what was on hand.

We have to remember, this was an independent business, based on manufacturing high quality reels for the masses -- at a competitive price -- and still turn a profit.

And, of course, there was no intention of building collector items for the future. 

Employees were encouraged to use their heads, in order to send out as many reels as possible to retailers -- and if the parts were already on hand -- that just made sense.

These reels were mean't to be fished -- so if a part was from a couple of years or a decade ago -- as long as it was up to the quality control standards -- and would fit -- it was used.

Otto and company were smart folks -- as well as thrifty -- all good traits.

Best,

Fred
The Official, Un-Authorized Service and Restoration Center for quality vintage spinning reels.

D-A-M Quick, Penn, Mitchell, and ABU/Zebco Cardinals

--------

The first rule of fishing is to fish where the fish are. The second rule of fishing is to never forget the first rule.

"Enjoy the little things in Life — For someday, you may look back — and realize that they were the big things"
                                                     Fred O.

Maxed Out

 The very first senator in 1936 was the 9/0 and its came from a long beach 60, just enlarged, but basically same exact design with outer rings added. Those first set of plates were internal drags based on the long beach design, then 1937 the 12/0 was introduced and had external drags from the get go, as did all the other senators to follow.....so going from all the talk about how thrifty penn was, it makes sense that they did want to upgrade the 9/0 to external drags, but would delay that upgrade simply to get the use out of those expensive cavity molds. They obviously did eventually make a 1st gen 9/0 cavity mold with outer drag access, but I believe that few of that configuration ever left the factory, as less than a handful have been found out of literally thousands of 1st gen 9/0's produced.
We Must Never Forget Our Veterans....God Bless Them All !!

Penn Chronology

I am of the opinion that pre-war Penn was in constant transition. Using the catalog like a Law Book, gets everyone into trouble. There are tells everywhere in the catalogs that refer to how things were and when you get into it, you find many of those tells become a points of confusion.

Case in point:

QuoteIn 1940 they now refer to the external drags as "The Senator Star Drag"  they also had images of 7 senators, in 1938 & 39 they only had 3. They images of the 9/0 & 4/0 now show the external drags.
This was a great find Brian. I never noticed this before; but, you are correct. It would seem that Penn had these illustrations drawn depicting the 4/0 and 9/0 as external drag reels.
                        The Penn catalogs also show first generation reels to continue in production until 1948. We know that is not true, at least with the larger models; but, it may be partially true with some of the smaller models. I have owned many 9/0 first gen reels. It seem they are one of the easiest first gen models to find. I have never had one with external drags. I have also owned at least three first gen 4/0's and none of them have external drags. I find the 4/0's much harder to find than the 9/0's.

Since I have started my studies of vintage Penn reels, the one consistent word is confusion. As we move through each and every little piece of information spread out of 80 years of unregulated catalog publishing, we seem to be always refuting something that was irrefutable the month before. That must be what makes this hobby so much fun, as soon as we think we have it all figured out, we have to start over!

Maxed Out

#36
 Mike, you are too hard on yourself. Your book is a history book, and the historical progression of penn reels is what your book is about and I think you did a fantastic job of accomplishing that task. Every history book ever written needs some editing from tidbits of skewed data or facts. A lot of conclusions may come from the most "logical" answer, which leaves the door open for alternative avenues.

 As far as the illustrations in catalogs and advertisements..... we are back onto the subject of the "thrifty" side of Penn. The original illustrations from mid 30's thru early 40's were used well into the late 50's in advertisements, hardware catalogs, and penn catalogs, and as new model were introduced, those illustrations would be mingled right in with old illustrations ... Not likely the average penn buyer would notice that his reel had 1 o'clock shifter, but was illustrated as 11 o'clock in the catalog, and my bet is Penn saw it the same way. I am with Brian on the changeover time frame, but I reserve the right to flip flop at any given moment. ;D ;)
We Must Never Forget Our Veterans....God Bless Them All !!

Penn Chronology


Maxed Out

Quote from: Penn Chronology on November 06, 2015, 11:26:22 PM
Thanks Ted.




   Perhaps we could get Brian P to post pics of the early boxed 2nd gen 9/0 rod and reel he stumbled upon. The catalog #9 that came with it confirms 2nd gen changeover happened prior to the war. I believe it all came from original owner.

   
We Must Never Forget Our Veterans....God Bless Them All !!

Penn Chronology

Quote
   Perhaps we could get Brian P to post pics of the early boxed 2nd gen 9/0 rod and reel he stumbled upon. The catalog #9 that came with it confirms 2nd gen changeover happened prior to the war. I believe it all came from original owner.

Ted,

You live closer to Brian than I do. I think you should go visit him and have a photo shoot. Then post the pictures. That would be fun.

Maxed Out

Quote from: Penn Chronology on December 18, 2015, 07:50:05 PM
Quote
   Perhaps we could get Brian P to post pics of the early boxed 2nd gen 9/0 rod and reel he stumbled upon. The catalog #9 that came with it confirms 2nd gen changeover happened prior to the war. I believe it all came from original owner.

Ted,

You live closer to Brian than I do. I think you should go visit him and have a photo shoot. Then post the pictures. That would be fun.


   Fun for who ??..... sorry my friend but My helicopter is in for service at the moment and I only drive south to fish, and anyone who voluntarily drives the I-5 corridor from Seattle thru Olympia needs to see a shrink. Thus the helicopter. ;D Wink Wink  ;)
We Must Never Forget Our Veterans....God Bless Them All !!

Tightlines667

#41
Wait a second

Brian already has this wonderful site...

http://myfishingreels.weebly.com

showcasing his collection.  Maybe an update here is in order?

I think Mike, Ted, Broadway Joe  ;)... I mean.. Dom, and friends might consider following suit.  I know that old OC photos sure could also use an update.  Just a wild suggestion...

I know setting these sites up and maintaining them can be alot of work.  

Sounds cheaper/more efficient then a helicopter ride though.
Hope springs eternal
for the consumate fishermen.

Oceanreels

  Ted, thanks for reminding me about this. I was going to post it, but things have been a little crazy around here.
  As Ten said it is a second generation Penn 9/0 with the #9 catalog making it 1941. Thanks to Al Stover, from ORCA, the rod has been identified as a Montague Big Game Single, from the same period. The set was in the fellows family since new. When I got it the reel was a mess and the box was in pieces. There are the before and after photos. The rod is the top one.
   
   
   
   
   
Brian Purrone  Member ORCA
http://myfishingreels.weebly.com/

Maxed Out



Thanks for taking the time to post that up Brian. You did great legwork and have confirmed a moment in time, written in stone, that may not seem very important to most, but to me it says what many suspected all along. 1st gen 9/0 transformed to gen2 prior to the war, as so did the rest of the senator models, which explains why 1st gen senators are so hard to find, except 1st gen 9/0 which is more common but still not easy to find.


   The reel cleaned up very nice Brian, and the rod is a great all original era piece as well. Congrats on the great find, and glad you somehow found room to squeeze one more special reel and big game rod in your display....time to update your website my friend !! lol
We Must Never Forget Our Veterans....God Bless Them All !!

Tightlines667

#44
I see Ted is not the only miracle worker here.  Great find! & a great job on the restoration.

Transition may have happened a bit earlier on in some of these Senators.  I suspect, that the molds themselves were likely produced (and available or utilized ) earlier then all of the reels exiting the factory for that particular year may suggest.

The catalogs and advertisements often depict older products, then what are actally being produced, or exiting the factory for that given time period.  We know that most printed materials require some time to compile, and also its easier (and more cost-effective) to continue using an older illustration, or ad then to update everything to match what will be getting produced & released out of the factory when the catalogs/advertisements are active.  

It seems to me that models that were produced, and moved (/sold) during a given production period (which may or may not have lined up with a calender or given catalog version), would likely be the first to use upgraded parts/design features.  While those that had been overproduced (in whole or part), would continue to leave the factory in older style config (or with some older style parts) until the stocks were used up.  An obvious case in point in the use of older style common parts, uch as handles, on later (especially smaller, cheaper, larger production run) model reels.

It's not surprising that the higher cost models that were produced, shipped and sold in lower quantities tend to show more continuity with regards to changing features for a given production run, or even with respect to catalog and advertising depictions/illustrations.  It's the other more popular/larger production run reels (such as the LongBeach, and even the 9/0) that can confuse and baffle with regards to when exactly they left the factory, or were sold for that matter.

Interesting stuff, and it's true that there are not always hard and fast rules here.

Just some thoughts based on what I have gleaned from the hard work other collectors have put into this facinating topic.
Hope springs eternal
for the consumate fishermen.