drag pressure versus temperature for greased carbon fiber drags

alantani · November 14, 2015, 01:32:09 AM

at the end, we threw the reel into the freezer to cool it down and the drag pressure returned to 7.5 pounds.

Dominick · November 14, 2015, 01:51:35 AM

Interesting. What this tells me is that maybe it is not necessary to loosen the drag when a big fish is taking line against the drag. If this happens all the time when the drags heat up then the reel self adjusts the drag. When the fish tires and you start to gain line pouring cool water on the reel should bring your drag back to where it was to start. What do you think fellow members? Dominick

MarkT · November 14, 2015, 01:54:57 AM

Did you do your standard of lots of grease and let it squeeze out under pressure? I always work the grease in then wipe them off so they look dry before installing them. I grease them to keep water from getting in, not to make them slippery. I'm sure the grease gets runny when it gets hot and degrades the drags.

Did you do another run with dry drags to compare?

alantani · November 14, 2015, 02:21:31 AM

no, but a dry drag test would be a good idea!!!

Alto Mare · November 14, 2015, 03:46:06 AM

Nice contraption you got there, put it in the mail and send it over, I would love to take it for a spin.
Better yet, let me send you a couple of delrin washers, one for under the main gear to replace the carbon fiber washer and one for the top of the stack and see what happens. I also have some perforated metal washers that brought down the temperature on some of mine homemade tests, I could send those as well, along with a heat sensor gun, a gift from one of the members here.

Sal

Tightlines667 · November 14, 2015, 03:46:14 AM

Nice job on the simple test/demonstration Alan!

You can't argue with that clear demonstration of the effects of heat on drag.

I have heard that at higher temperatures the swelling of the gear sleeve, and to a lesser extent the metal drag washers can cause binding resulting in an inability to back off, or adjust the drag, and an increase in spikes/surginess.

I would expect you would find similar results with dry drag washers, but would likely get a higher temp/lower drag quicker, and more 'surginess'. Measured drag would likely be a little greater (at a given setting) as well.

Dominick, I think you are onto something with not having to back the drag off as much as one might think as the fish runs, but bear in mind the spool diameter likely has a greater effect (or at least a significant one) on effective drag then temp. Also, don't forget that the more line that is in the water (and the greater diameter of that line), the more drag is produced by that line moving through the water. This can simply cause line to come off of the reel more readily on the 'reel end', but there is no drag at the 'fish end' of things, and pressure on the fish and terminal tackle will increase. This is partially why the gear usually fails nearer the fish then the reel.

Alan's test was conducted with a constant spool diameter. Different results (in terms of measured drag on the line, at the reel) might occur with a large diameter spool, filled with large diameter line being emptied rapidly. This may be epecially true when the spool becomes less then 1/2 or 1/3 full. Spool RPMs also increase exponentially as the spool diameter decreases.

I am still going to back the drag off once I start to get to 400-500yds of my 1200 with a big fish running at full bore, regardless of how hot the reel is getting. and I still prefer to manage the heat, by pouring water on the reel as needed.

Delron above and below the drag stack will likely smooth out some of the surginess (especially at changing speed, and higher drag settings), but isn't likely to reduce the effects of heat drag.

This is good stuff, and deserves a bit more testing.

Alto Mare · November 14, 2015, 04:03:08 AM

Smoother reel, less heat...it all relates.

alantani · November 14, 2015, 04:27:08 AM

yeah, mostly i need a way of checking the temperature of the handle nut. that seems to be the best place to go for a temperature.

Dominick · November 14, 2015, 04:58:21 AM

Quote from: alantani on November 14, 2015, 04:27:08 AM
yeah, mostly i need a way of checking the temperature of the handle nut. that seems to be the best place to go for a temperature.

Alan you pulled your hand away pretty quick. Was the part you touched that hot that you think it could have burned you? Dominick

alantani · November 14, 2015, 05:01:28 AM

yup, it was pretty friggin' hot!!!!!!!

Tightlines667 · November 14, 2015, 05:03:38 AM

Quote from: alantani on November 14, 2015, 05:01:28 AM
yup, it was pretty friggin' hot!!!!!!!

ouch!
I could almost feel your pain. You can't make that stuff up

SoCalAngler · November 14, 2015, 07:57:42 AM

Nice work there Alan.

Without a blister would it been as much fun?

I agree with your observation as I would of not expected that result either.

But, to throw a monkey wrench in, it's kinda what I do. The reel is loosing drag pressure as it heats up right? Now to get the drags that hot under fishing conditions a fish must be ripping line off the reel, right? Since the line diameter on the spool is getting smaller the actual drag pressure on the line to the fish will increase. I'm just wondering if the loss of drag because of the heat would be offset by the lines diameter on the spool getting smaller?

Sorry to ask a question that most likely can't be answered because of all the variables in the equation, but this is the stuff that gets the hamsters turning the wheel in my head.

alantani · November 14, 2015, 08:29:48 AM

at some point, you have to get that fish to the gaff. if this fish can rip out 400 to 500 yards of line, your reel will be so hot and you'll loose so much drag that you will not get it back. not unless you throw the rod into the water (attached to a backup, of course). if you are able to get the fish up to the boat, then chances are you never heated it up to begin with.

the problem is see is these prolonged fights where you have a stand off. you have to know what your drag pressures are at all times, and you have to be able to adjust your drag settings. you can do this blindly. you have to know, which means attaching a scale to the reel during a fight to measure. Yeah, good luck with that!

LTM · November 14, 2015, 09:01:37 AM

Alan,

When I saw the drag decreasing as the motor turned faster I thought of "break fade" . Break fade as when at the end of a quarter mile run at the drag strip. You kinda get used to it after awhile; when you apply brakes (sometimes with "both" feet) and "wait" for the speed of the car to slow down to where the brakes will start to work again.

Leo

Alto Mare · November 14, 2015, 10:20:42 AM

I've mentioned above you have a nice contraption, when I was doing some personal tests for myself, I used a hand held drill, not easy.
I gave up on testing due to too many parts getting wasted and too much time involved.
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=6517.msg68251#msg68251
Trying to control heat build up would be great, but might not be that easy to achieve.
Having a nice fish peeling line off the reel for an hour or so and having a gadget trying to imitate it is not the same, but it sure helps.
On another note:
Using Adam's inserts have made it possible for us to triple the drag numbers on some reels.
Of course the reels with the inserts should not be fished at those numbers, we need to be realistic. We've been doing it for other reasons.
Comparing a stock 9/0 to a 9/0 with Adams inserts, the stock 9/0 gave me a hard time retrieving weight
at 25lb of drag while turning the handle. I then tried it with the 9/0 with the insert, that same weight was so easy to retrieve, even a kid could have done it.
Does this change things as for heat build up...I don't know.

Sal