alan tani @ alantani.com fishing reel repair rebuild tutorial Anti Reverse...Failure or Functiion?
Reel Repair by Alan Tani
October 22, 2019, 12:30:47 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register  
Pages: 1 [2]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Anti Reverse...Failure or Functiion?  (Read 10844 times)
0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.
SoCalAngler
SoCalAngler
Photo Group
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 1856



« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2016, 08:03:19 PM »

I agree with you Alto but if it is a septicemic problem where the manufacturer is asking it's self why this is happening there can only be a few answers.

Like I said I'm not trying to lay blame on anybody but if there is a issue IMO it needs to be addressed in the best possible manner.

Is a open forum really a good place to discuss such issues? One that gets a million of hits a year? Maybe or maybe not? But, what do I know.

We all have seen reels over fished and no blame should go to anyone other than the person fishing the reel, thats why IMO Avet's smaller reels get such a bad rap. People seem to over fish them then ask why they have issues, even though those design limits are clearly stated.

Do all reels fail because of user miss use? Nope, and you and I know no reel manufacture makes bearings for their reels, so can bearings be an issue? Yes, (check Accurate here) but if you see this problem over and over, like I stated with Avet and Accurate reels, IMO something else needs to be addressed other than just laying it down to the end user or a few bad bearings.

Accurate had ARB issues from the beginning, though I'm not sure they still do.

Avet's non Raptor reels pinion bearings failed mostly to people over fishing their drag rating. I bet all of the bearing failures were not do to people over fishing these reels but the issue was made clear and to address this issue of high drags on small reels they came out with the Raptor line.

If, and only if Okuma is having some kind of issues with certain reels, and I would lay money on which conventional reels it may be, I feel it is more than just a bad few bad bearings causing the issue.

Don't get me wrong I like Okuma's reels a lot but some of their smaller reels seem to be over rated in terms of line and drag pressures that should be fished at their max. Again just IMO.
Logged
basto
Member
*
Online Online

Posts: 1071



« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2016, 08:06:38 PM »

I don`t care much for ARBs in conventional reels because they don`t have the opportunity to be made as large as in spin reels.
The diameter of the ARB in a spinner can be made nearly the diameter of the rotor, which delivers a much stronger ARB .
That said, I wonder why all spin reels don`t take advantage of this. Some are made relatively small.
If I look at the ARB in my Daiwa Catalina (old model) or Shimano Saragosa (old model) they are much larger than in some other large spinners.  
« Last Edit: March 07, 2016, 12:17:53 PM by basto » Logged
sundaytrucka
Firearms Group
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 469



« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2016, 10:57:47 PM »

I agree with you Alto but if it is a septicemic problem where the manufacturer is asking it's self why this is happening there can only be a few answers.

Like I said I'm not trying to lay blame on anybody but if there is a issue IMO it needs to be addressed in the best possible manner.

Is a open forum really a good place to discuss such issues? One that gets a million of hits a year? Maybe or maybe not? But, what do I know.

We all have seen reels over fished and no blame should go to anyone other than the person fishing the reel, thats why IMO Avet's smaller reels get such a bad rap. People seem to over fish them then ask why they have issues, even though those design limits are clearly stated.

Do all reels fail because of user miss use? Nope, and you and I know no reel manufacture makes bearings for their reels, so can bearings be an issue? Yes, (check Accurate here) but if you see this problem over and over, like I stated with Avet and Accurate reels, IMO something else needs to be addressed other than just laying it down to the end user or a few bad bearings.

Accurate had ARB issues from the beginning, though I'm not sure they still do.

Avet's non Raptor reels pinion bearings failed mostly to people over fishing their drag rating. I bet all of the bearing failures were not do to people over fishing these reels but the issue was made clear and to address this issue of high drags on small reels they came out with the Raptor line.

If, and only if Okuma is having some kind of issues with certain reels, and I would lay money on which conventional reels it may be, I feel it is more than just a bad few bad bearings causing the issue.

Don't get me wrong I like Okuma's reels a lot but some of their smaller reels seem to be over rated in terms of line and drag pressures that should be fished at their max. Again just IMO.

This is not an internal issue regarding Okuma's product(s) point of ARB threshold or failure, but a little debate after discussing the new SLX lever drag reel.

The SLX has an ARB and dual-engaging back-up dogs, I asked if the ARB released or slipped and enacted the dogs is this considered a normal function, given the ARB returned to normal function afterwards...To be clear, I received a direct NO, any reverse movement or backplay of the handle and AR is considered a failure and the ARB should be replaced.

I questioned this, in the case of the ARB sustaining normal function afterwards, but was still given the same response, "Replace the ARB".

So I just wanted to ask what you guys thought, if nothing else to feed my pride on wanting to be right or at least shine light on what I believe to be a grey area, and there have been some good opinions on this subject.

I think Chad nailed it, if the dogs are timed to engage before the ARB fully slips then it can be a function, but I do not know of a reel that is or can be timed out that way.

-Scott
Logged

I don't know how to do everything, but I know how to get everything done.
thinkwahoo
Guest
« Reply #18 on: March 07, 2016, 01:38:39 AM »

All reels with ARB were installed for one purpose, and that is to eliminate handle back lash.  All reels should ultimately depend on the anti reverse pawls doing their job to lock the reel up and prevent it from becoming a knuckle buster.  ARB will fail with as little as 5 - 6#'s of pressure, so don't expect them to be bullet proof.

I'm so old fashioned that I would have the mfg's provide something as simple as an oil light bushing that could replace the ARB.  Which leads to another analysis that the cogged wheel under the main gear should have more teeth, and this would vertually eliminate the handle backlash.
Logged
Alto Mare
Moderator
Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 12478


Southeastern Pennsylvania


« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2016, 03:49:23 AM »

I agree with you Alto but if it is a septicemic problem where the manufacturer is asking it's self why this is happening there can only be a few answers.

Like I said I'm not trying to lay blame on anybody but if there is a issue IMO it needs to be addressed in the best possible manner.

Is a open forum really a good place to discuss such issues? One that gets a million of hits a year? Maybe or maybe not? But, what do I know.

We all have seen reels over fished and no blame should go to anyone other than the person fishing the reel, thats why IMO Avet's smaller reels get such a bad rap. People seem to over fish them then ask why they have issues, even though those design limits are clearly stated.

Do all reels fail because of user miss use? Nope, and you and I know no reel manufacture makes bearings for their reels, so can bearings be an issue? Yes, (check Accurate here) but if you see this problem over and over, like I stated with Avet and Accurate reels, IMO something else needs to be addressed other than just laying it down to the end user or a few bad bearings.

Accurate had ARB issues from the beginning, though I'm not sure they still do.

Avet's non Raptor reels pinion bearings failed mostly to people over fishing their drag rating. I bet all of the bearing failures were not do to people over fishing these reels but the issue was made clear and to address this issue of high drags on small reels they came out with the Raptor line.

If, and only if Okuma is having some kind of issues with certain reels, and I would lay money on which conventional reels it may be, I feel it is more than just a bad few bad bearings causing the issue.

Don't get me wrong I like Okuma's reels a lot but some of their smaller reels seem to be over rated in terms of line and drag pressures that should be fished at their max. Again just IMO.

This is not an internal issue regarding Okuma's product(s) point of ARB threshold or failure, but a little debate after discussing the new SLX lever drag reel.

The SLX has an ARB and dual-engaging back-up dogs, I asked if the ARB released or slipped and enacted the dogs is this considered a normal function, given the ARB returned to normal function afterwards...To be clear, I received a direct NO, any reverse movement or backplay of the handle and AR is considered a failure and the ARB should be replaced.

I questioned this, in the case of the ARB sustaining normal function afterwards, but was still given the same response, "Replace the ARB".

So I just wanted to ask what you guys thought, if nothing else to feed my pride on wanting to be right or at least shine light on what I believe to be a grey area, and there have been some good opinions on this subject.

I think Chad nailed it, if the dogs are timed to engage before the ARB fully slips then it can be a function, but I do not know of a reel that is or can be timed out that way.

-Scott
You have answered your own question Scott, no gray area on this subject.
No matter how good you get with the ratchet and manual dogs , you will always get a hint of back lash.  When you feel that hint of back lash on a reel with the ARB, that ARB is toast.
If anyone has any doubts, all you need to do disable the ARB and find out for yourself.
Here is another observation somewhat related. Most reels come with ( 2 ) dogs, you could have those engage at exactly the same time, but only one will actually carry the load, it could the left or the right, but only one at a time.
With that said, it is still good having  ( 2 ) dogs.
A member here ( Dave ), made me a believer, this was after a few disagreements. Grin
That man a very smart... as some others here.

So, taking everything in consideration, I agree with Thinkwahoo. Manufacturers should disclose that an ARB will eliminate back lash, but it is not intended to completely  lock the reel up on its own.
Now the real question is, how are you going to figure out how to put that ARB on time out while the dogs do their job Undecided ...not an easy task.
ARB will always fail, just my opinion.

Sal
Logged

Forget about all the reasons why something may not work. You only need to find one good reason why it will.
alantani
admin
Administrator
Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 17740



« Reply #20 on: March 07, 2016, 11:34:46 AM »

finally getting the bench cleared off, wanted to weigh in.  my answer is, well, yes and no......   Undecided

the anti-reverse roller bearings will typically give you zero reverse motion up to a certain point and then they slip.  for the average reel, like the shimano trinidads, i have seen brand new AR bearings slip at about 15 pounds.  this is normal function.  over time, old age, repeated overloads and/or corrosion will decrease the hold.  i have seen the hold decrease to about 8 pounds in some AR bearings that showed no obvious evidence of corrosion.  so it is "normal" for them to slip at a certain drag pressure and it is also "normal" for that pressure to decrease over time.  

for a guy working on a reel at home, what's important to me is the question of damage.  if an AR bearing slips once, is it damaged to the point that it must automatically be replaced?  i think the answer is no.  it should be relatively easy to check, and if the AR bearing is giving you an "acceptable" amount of hold, i think it is reasonable to throw it back into the reel.  i would not recommend that everybody here replace them at a cost of $15 to $20 each, just because they slip a little under a heavy load.  besides, you just serviced this reel so you now have a smooth drag with no start up and you've thoroughly lubed the ambassadeur-style dogs so they will engage reliably.  your reel should be good to go.  fish with confidence.

from a service center's point of view, i think it's a little different.  these AR bearings have known limitations, they do not have to be corroded to weaken or fail, it's easy to replace them when the reel is open, and the relative cost of the AR bearing is low because you buy a thousand at a time.  compare that to the damage to your company's reputation if a reel, ANY REEL, goes knuckle buster and i think it's an easy choice.  hell, i'd replace them all!

so i guess the bottom line is that i think they will all be fine, but if i were you would replace them if there is any hint of underperformance.  basically, yes and no.....   Grin
« Last Edit: March 07, 2016, 11:46:22 AM by alantani » Logged

send me an email at alantani@yahoo.com for questions!
alantani
admin
Administrator
Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 17740



« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2016, 11:41:29 AM »

I have been debating this with people at work....
-Scott

by the way, young man, i had dinner with your boss on thursday.  we had a nice little chat about you.  he couldn't be happier with your performance at work. 

well done!
Logged

send me an email at alantani@yahoo.com for questions!
johndtuttle
Sensei
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 1922


« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2016, 01:54:13 PM »

finally getting the bench cleared off, wanted to weigh in.  my answer is, well, yes and no......   Undecided

the anti-reverse roller bearings will typically give you zero reverse motion up to a certain point and then they slip.  for the average reel, like the shimano trinidads, i have seen brand new AR bearings slip at about 15 pounds.  this is normal function.  over time, old age, repeated overloads and/or corrosion will decrease the hold.  i have seen the hold decrease to about 8 pounds in some AR bearings that showed no obvious evidence of corrosion.  so it is "normal" for them to slip at a certain drag pressure and it is also "normal" for that pressure to decrease over time. 

for a guy working on a reel at home, what's important to me is the question of damage.  if an AR bearing slips once, is it damaged to the point that it must automatically be replaced?  i think the answer is no.  it should be relatively easy to check, and if the AR bearing is giving you an "acceptable" amount of hold, i think it is reasonable to throw it back into the reel.  i would not recommend that everybody here replace them at a cost of $15 to $20 each, just because they slip a little under a heavy load.  besides, you just serviced this reel so you now have a smooth drag with no start up and you've thoroughly lubed the ambassadeur-style dogs so they will engage reliably.  your reel should be good to go.  fish with confidence.

from a service center's point of view, i think it's a little different.  these AR bearings have known limitations, they do not have to be corroded to weaken or fail, it's easy to replace them when the reel is open, and the relative cost of the AR bearing is low because you buy a thousand at a time.  compare that to the damage to your company's reputation if a reel, ANY REEL, goes knuckle buster and i think it's an easy choice.  hell, i'd replace them all!

so i guess the bottom line is that i think they will all be fine, but if i were you would replace them if there is any hint of underperformance.  basically, yes and no.....   Grin



To expand on this a tiny bit and to emphasize a point made in another post...

These small ARB are burdened significantly by the gear ratio. The 8#'s of drag at the spool is multiplied to nearly 50# at the handle due to the say, 6:1 gear ratio in a modern hyper speed deluxe. Honestly, that they work as well as they do for as long as they do is remarkable seeing as they are rated for much less than 50# reliably.

This is also why lower geared reels are stronger...the Gear teeth are thicker and other parts are stressed less because the loads are not multiplied as much at 4:1 as they are at 6:1...32# of stress on a ARB and gear train is much preferable over 48#....ergo, lower geared reels are far more tough and  reliable. Not only are the forces less but the gear teeth are thicker and tougher to handle it.

Maybe a next gen reel will have the ARB on the spool shaft and figure out some way to disengage it for free spool...because in the handle puts lots of stress on the gear train (the teeth bear the load too) and multiply the stress on the ARB.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2016, 05:54:16 PM by johndtuttle » Logged
Tightlines666
Sensei
Member
***
Online Online

Posts: 4437



« Reply #23 on: March 07, 2016, 02:30:01 PM »

Well put John.  I believe the actual size of the gears an relation to each other and the spool diameter also come into play here, when looking at the force exerted on the ARB and/or dog (s).
Logged

Hope springs eternal
for the consumate fishermen.
MarkT
Member
*
Online Online

Posts: 2446


Mission Viejo, CA, USA


« Reply #24 on: March 07, 2016, 02:46:38 PM »

So that's why I can't winch in a 5# fish.  That 6:1 multiplication means I need 30# of force at the handle.
Logged

When I was your age Pluto was a planet!
cbar45
Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 475


« Reply #25 on: March 07, 2016, 04:16:51 PM »

I wonder if they make a sprag-type clutch of suitable size for a fishing reel?

Such design would be better at handling the multiplied torque transmitted through the gears of a conventional star drag.





http://www.bocabearings.com/bearing-types/one-way-clutch-bearings/sprag-type-one-way-clutch-bearing-csk-

Chad

Logged
Alto Mare
Moderator
Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 12478


Southeastern Pennsylvania


« Reply #26 on: March 07, 2016, 06:49:57 PM »


Maybe a next gen reel will have the ARB on the spool shaft and figure out some way to disengage it for free spool...because in the handle puts lots of stress on the gear train (the teeth bear the load too) and multiply the stress on the ARB.
That would do it.
Logged

Forget about all the reasons why something may not work. You only need to find one good reason why it will.
cbar45
Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 475


« Reply #27 on: March 08, 2016, 01:17:21 AM »

Interesting concept. I imagine the challenge with a spool-mounted ARB would be designing a feature that allows line to pay out under drag.
Logged
Bryan Young
Ultimate Upgrades Drags
Administrator
Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 10272


The Reel Whisperer


« Reply #28 on: March 08, 2016, 08:18:44 AM »


Maybe a next gen reel will have the ARB on the spool shaft and figure out some way to disengage it for free spool...because in the handle puts lots of stress on the gear train (the teeth bear the load too) and multiply the stress on the ARB.
That would do it.
They do have these on newer spinner reels that do not have AR pawls for the rotor.  It works fine, but like all ARBs, they do have their limitations.  Nothing quite beats the AR pawl (dog).

My comment on replacement, I am in alignment with Alan.  For reels with ARBs and dogs, I would only say that the ARBs are intended to reduce back play of the handle, the AR pawls are the true AR system.
Logged

Cheesy I talk with every part I send out and each reel I repair so that they perform at the top of their game. Cheesy
Pages: 1 [2]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
Simple Audio Video Embedder
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.36 seconds with 16 queries.