Line twist in spinning reels?

[Reel 224]

My father tought me that 50 years ago.

I get that. And I appreciate that (smart Man, your Father). But a lot of people forgot every thing they learned in high school science class.
Mono has a "memory". Which is why the coils have to go on the reel the same way they come off of the feeder spool. Keeping in mind this depends on the winder or winding method you are using. We weew using an older Berkeley winder that required that the spool be removed from the reel first, and then clamped to the winder drive motor. I can't tell you how many rookies I've seen wind line on a spinner spool off the top of the feeder and over the top of the spinner spool! What a mess that makes.
[/quote]

Isn't that funny, the older we get we realize how smart our parents were.

Joe

[RiverAngler]

Right you are Joe. My kids are finding that out, even in their 30's.

[johndtuttle]

We're having a discussion on line twist and spinning reels, some have said you'll get line twist by both using the reels mechizinisms to close the bail and by reeling while the drag is letting line out.

I can see the line out while the drag is slipping, but not so sure about how the bail is closed.

Will you get line twist by letting the reel close the bail and not if you manually close the bail?

TIA

Al

Twist is not caused by auto-tripping the bail. What that does is put slack loops on the spool that can then cause wind knots when the next cast is longer. It also beats up the gears, bail arms, rotor and springs. Manually tripping the bail by hand is better in every regard and removing auto-trip features can save the loss of expensive plugs.

Twist is caused when retrieving by the circular motion of the rotor as it forces the line to change direction. You can demonstrate this yourself by wrapping line onto a spool yourself by hand. We all naturally line up the spool to be parallel to the incoming line to make it easier, but if you set the spool to 90 degrees and wrap the line you will see a twisty mess very shortly. A freely moving line roller "grips" the line less and lets the twist go onto the spool without much built up tension in one section whereas a sticky line roller "squeezes" the twist down the line. You can also demonstrate this yourself then retrieving your line between your finger pressure. It doesn't make more or less twist it just concentrates it sooner into a shorter section and a mess results.

Pro line riggers like Basil Pappas at BHP Tackle offer a service called "streamlining" whereby big game spinners are spooled with "reverse" twist to delay twist build up. This is critical as twist can help cause the formation of "micro" wind knots in very limp lines (like JB Hollow 60). These tiny knots lead to mysterious brake-offs under very little pressure and lost fish.


best

[Rancanfish]

I'm pretty sure the shop I used loaded all my Stradics wrong, as I've had loops trouble ever since. 

I just went back and bought some quality swivels and will try that.

[sdlehr]

Twist is caused when retrieving by the circular motion of the rotor as it forces the line to change direction. You can demonstrate this yourself by wrapping line onto a spool yourself by hand. We all naturally line up the spool to be parallel to the incoming line to make it easier, but if you set the spool to 90 degrees and wrap the line you will see a twisty mess very shortly. A freely moving line roller "grips" the line less and lets the twist go onto the spool without much built up tension in one section whereas a sticky line roller "squeezes" the twist down the line. You can also demonstrate this yourself then retrieving your line between your finger pressure. It doesn't make more or less twist it just concentrates it sooner into a shorter section and a mess results.

Pro line riggers like Basil Pappas at BHP Tackle offer a service called "streamlining" whereby big game spinners are spooled with "reverse" twist to delay twist build up. This is critical as twist can help cause the formation of "micro" wind knots in very limp lines (like JB Hollow 60). These tiny knots lead to mysterious brake-offs under very little pressure and lost fish.


best

John, I have struggled to understand why line on a spinner always twists, and I've even gotten into the habit of manually flipping over the bail despite not understanding what causes the twist, but your explanation (on the third reading with a 2-hr break between the second and third) really starts to make sense out of this. Thank you.

Sid

[philaroman]

Thanks guys.

The question was how does line twist increase by using the reels mechanism over manually closing the bail.

fwiw I run a leader with a swivel when using baits that can cause line twist, so that's not a problem, this is fresh water fishing if that makes any difference.


As long as  we're at it, why manually close bail?
If it's a wear issue, I have yet to wear a reel out and some are from the 80's and have a lot of time on them?

Al

Al,

nice useful discussion, but you get your specific answer from oc1 & John: two separate problems that wreak havoc in conjunction -- twist & loose, sloppy line packing on the spool.  Auto bail return causes the latter, which is generally bad & EXTRA horrible for mono that's already excessively twisted & for braid in any condition.

If your line is twisted and causing tangles because of it, heres a trick that may help.  Remove any terminal tackle from the line, and play out line by hand while in a slow moving boat.  Let out more line than you typically use, and then reel it back in.  Any excessive twisting should come out. 

great trick...  you may need to drag the line behind the boat for up to 20 min., if it's badly twisted...  if no boat, moderate river current will do the same

In my humble opinion, baitcasting reels now achieve as much distance as spinning reels.  Distance was the last and only advantage of spinning reels so they are now dinosaurs in my book.  We can agree to disagree.
-steve

show me a baitcaster that can effectively cast <1/16oz, or even 1/8oz, & handle 2lb mono/5lb braid...  and if you find one, LOOK AT THE PRICE!!!      

[AllenW]

I hear what you're saying Al and agree completely.  There is no twist until the bail comes tight on the line and it does not matter how you got there.  Manually closing the bail is just to avoid the clunk.

Cranking the handle against the drag creates more twists, but having line play out against a drag and then retrieving it normally creates twists too.  There is no getting around it.

In my humble opinion, baitcasting reels now achieve as much distance as spinning reels.  Distance was the last and only advantage of spinning reels so they are now dinosaurs in my book.  We can agree to disagree.
-steve

This was the answer to my question, thanks.

I've heard and read on a few forums that using the auto bail closer you added line twist and to do it manually, I for the life of me couldn't figure out how that happens.
Appears others agree with me that it makes no difference, thanks.

I tend to bounce back and forth as to whether to manually close the bail, if I start wearing reels out, I'll go all manual but till then, I'll do both.
Appreciate the advice though.

fwiw I normally run a main line, then a good ball bearing swivel, then a 4-6 foot leader of slightly less test than the main line for my walleye/crappie rigs, keeps line twist down with jigs and such, and the lighter test line means I normally only loose a jig and a few feet of line if snagged.

Once again, thanks all.

Al

[Rancanfish]

You may have all the info you needed but wanted to add something for what it's worth.

I tied two swivels (one each) to my two spinning reels and went fishing for stripers yesterday for 5 hrs., casting continually.  In all that time I did not have one loop develop. I caught 31 small stripers.

My Stradic Anti-reverse would fail off and on, but that's for another thread.