alan tani @ alantani.com fishing reel repair rebuild tutorial Penn Trade Reels
Reel Repair by Alan Tani
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Author Topic: Penn Trade Reels  (Read 63099 times)
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milne
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« Reply #165 on: March 15, 2020, 11:52:33 PM »

I thought I would add to my original post, re the Kingfisher box with numbers that didn't correspond to the ledger that mike put up for 33 tryon trade sales.How ever, I think I did make some progress.
The original state, had two stickers with the numbers 4088, but under close investagation, the top number was actually a sticker like the one on the side.
So I very carefully, removed the top sticker ( still in one piece after removel ) and underneath, was, I believe the boxes original number 4058.


* IMG_1476.JPG (1506.46 KB, 3264x2448 - viewed 4 times.)

* IMG_1584.JPG (1668.65 KB, 3264x2448 - viewed 5 times.)
« Last Edit: March 15, 2020, 11:54:26 PM by milne » Logged
milne
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« Reply #166 on: March 16, 2020, 12:01:37 AM »

So, with the new number 4058, there was reference to this exact number, in the 33 ledger sales, to Tyron,  but the number referred to a reel name of a Seaside ??  from what I could make out, there was also a Pacific and an Atlantic, from what I can read. I recall Mike talking about this, but I can't find it anywhere, I recall it was something to do with Penn changing the names for the sale ??  I could be way off there, I simply don't know.
So, I guess my aim is to put a reel with this box, So I'm hoping I can get to the bottom of the names and try and identify which one it is and hopefully put the correct reel with it..
It's been a Buzz actually researching this, It's been interesting.
Below is the hand written ledger, which is in Mikes yellow book, which shows the number 4058 and the names.....

Col


* IMG_1585.JPG (1407.45 KB, 3264x2448 - viewed 5 times.)
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« Reply #167 on: March 16, 2020, 11:29:42 AM »

Nice investigative work Col. Cool
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« Reply #168 on: March 16, 2020, 07:41:48 PM »


 The box says "free spool", so it's likely a direct drive model with no star drag, but will have freespool lever

 Others will know more
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milne
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« Reply #169 on: March 16, 2020, 08:56:42 PM »

Thanks guys.
So in 33 we have a Long Beach, a Bay Side, a Sea Ford and a Sea Hawk, and the much sort after Sea King !!!! but they were a 150 yd
I'm confused a bit on the free spool part, as all the reels in the catalogue state free spool in there description and do have so, in various forms.

Going by the prices in the hand written ledger, the 300 yard versions, we have 4 models on offer to Tyron.
Atlantic     4098 $2.75
Pacific       4048 $2.35
SeaSide     4058 $1.55
SeaHawk   4028 $1.45

Presuming there were special prices for Tyron being they were trade sales, my 4058 is 3rd on the money scale in $ terms of sales to Tyron.
If we were to take the same price scale on Penn 33 reels, the 4058 is 3rd on the money list, it would point to a Sea Ford Huh??
With the Sea Hawk being the cheapest..........
 
I still haven't found out why the names were different and in other sales they and for other trade sales they used numbers...
But there were definitely 4 reel types, sold in 33 to Tyron, as per the above numbers,  in 34, there were new numbered reels sold to Tyron,.
4017
4018
4037
4038         I'ts assumed that the numbers ending with "7" denoted a 250 yd version
                 And the numbers ending with "8" were indeed 300 yard versions.
I had heard that the 4037 and the 4038 were designated the Sea Ford, but that doesn't explain the first set of 4 numbers in 33,   as all were 300 yd reels, so it must have include the Sea ford in those set of numbers and the newer numbers in 34 ( above) were perhaps the Newport, bridge city or maybe the Oceanside ??  Dunno....... maybe will never know   Grin
I think I may just call it now, that this box is for a 33 300 yd Sea Ford,,,,,,,,   Maybe   Grin

Col

 
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« Reply #170 on: March 16, 2020, 10:51:31 PM »

You are in the world of Trade Reels trying to make sense of it. I do not believe you can do it. Look at the ledger. It puts the Sea Side model name with model # 4058. Look at the model # on the Kingfisher Trade reel in the photo from Ray Hodges. The reel is a 1933 Sea Ford--250 yard version with a Model # of 4047 on the box and a Model name is Sea Side. The 1933 Penn ledger names the 250 yard Sea Side as a #4057. See where I am going here. The facts and documentation conclude that the only answer is "Confusion" and the bottom line is no one will ever know because it did not matter in those days. They were mixing boxes and model name all the time concerning Trade Reels. Especially with the Edward K. Tryon reels. That was a very short lived Trade Account. I do not believe it lasted more than three or four years.

Here is my opinion of the 1933 Edward K. Tryon aka Kingfisher Trade reels and how they directly relate to the Penn Models:

Model 4027---250 yard---Sea Hawk---$??.??
Model 4028---300 Yard---Sea Hawk---$1.45

Model 4057---250 yard---Sea Ford aka Sea Side---$1.37
Model 4058---300 yard---Sea Ford aka Sea Side---$1.55

Model 4047---250 yard---Bay Side aka Pacific---$2.10
Model 4048---300 yard---Bay Side aka Pacific---$2.35

Model 4097---250 yard---Long Beach aka Atlantic---$2.50
Model 4098---300 yard---Long Beach aka Atlantic---$2.75

Basically if you use the Ledger, Jobbers List and the surviving reel and box that Ray Hodges found, I feel my logic works for 1933. The ledger entry is page 14 of the ledger putting us in November, 1933. The Sea Ford was actually a late introduced 1933 reel, that replaced the Sea King model that never happened (until some collector finds one).

Because I believe the Sea Hawk was Penn's first reel, Edward K. Tryon and Penn both used the Sea Hawk name, but of course, that is speculation on my parts. What is really cool is no one can refute that speculation because no one really knows... Grin Grin


* Kingfisher Seaford and box.jpg (253.49 KB, 885x1095 - viewed 4 times.)

* 1933 Jobber List.jpg (38.14 KB, 640x612 - viewed 4 times.)

* Penn leger-3 - Copy--1933 Kingfisher order.JPEG (151.62 KB, 1239x485 - viewed 7 times.)
« Last Edit: March 16, 2020, 11:02:21 PM by Penn Chronology » Logged
milne
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« Reply #171 on: March 16, 2020, 11:38:56 PM »

Hi Mike,  It's been an interesting thing to research, all the same.
Yes, from the jobbers list, in 33, 5058 relates to a 300 yd sea ford, I'm real happy, cause I have that reel to match with the box ...

I can't find that photo which you mentioned on Ray's box and reel.  But it seems strange that 4047, would mean a seaford, that number in 33 is for a 4047 is a pacific, which would make it a bay side ??, maybe because I can't find that reference of Ray's one to look at.
I did notice the date too on that jobbers list and made the relation to the fact the Sea Ford was a late 33 offering.

I luv this stuff, I bet, there are many many more strange findings as hopefully more old boxes turn up, part of the mystique of everything I suppose.

Mike, the box and the reel can now be retired to the shelf, to sit together, with at least a bit of a story to them..
On with the find I say...

Thanks again Mike. ( awesome history )

Col

PS, The computer service is so bad at the moment, the photo is only just coming thru now, slowly down loading.....
didn't realise there was a photo attached....

Col

 
« Last Edit: March 16, 2020, 11:42:51 PM by milne » Logged
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« Reply #172 on: March 16, 2020, 11:50:52 PM »

Ok, had to comment again, once I saw the photo of the box ( finally downloaded ).

Wow, the name is actually on the box.  I straight away went thru the ledgers again, to see if 5058 was listed again in the following years, but it doesn't re appear.  I thought that maybe 33 boxes had names on them , which would make my box a latter year,  but 5058 it seems, to be only listed in 33.
So I'll keep calling mine a 33 at this stage  Grin

I understand fully now as you said, we can only really speculate, on all things trade reels.
Very interesting, Thanks for posting that up Mike...

Col
« Last Edit: March 16, 2020, 11:53:56 PM by milne » Logged
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« Reply #173 on: March 17, 2020, 10:22:10 PM »

Quote
Ok, had to comment again, once I saw the photo of the box ( finally downloaded ).

Wow, the name is actually on the box.  I straight away went thru the ledgers again, to see if 5058 was listed again in the following years, but it doesn't re appear.  I thought that maybe 33 boxes had names on them , which would make my box a latter year,  but 5058 it seems, to be only listed in 33.
So I'll keep calling mine a 33 at this stage  Grin

I understand fully now as you said, we can only really speculate, on all things trade reels.
Very interesting, Thanks for posting that up Mike...

That was an interesting brain exercise. I always felt that another book could be written about Penn Trade Reels.
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milne
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« Reply #174 on: March 17, 2020, 11:00:35 PM »

Mike, Now that would be an interesting book, both to write and to read, but I suspect would be very difficult to write due to these curve balls, as per above.

It's still to me an interesting subject matter and I suppose if more finds can be made and documented, "maybe" it could answer some of the anomalies at least. But that photo of Ray's Kingfisher box, just blows all out of the water, especially referencing it to the 33 jobbers list, which clearly states that number is for a Pacific reel,  very confusing.  I don't know the chances of finding more such reels and boxes here down under, but you never know, I do hope more show up, I mean you have pretty well nailed most things on Penn reels, with your research and books.
I don't have to many trade reels as such, but a definite interest is boiling.
Thanks again Mike for your invaluable info you have shared, which I'm sure you realise, is appreciated by all that share this passion and interest....

Thank You.

Col
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« Reply #175 on: March 22, 2020, 10:33:21 PM »

Quote
Mike, Now that would be an interesting book, both to write and to read, but I suspect would be very difficult to write due to these curve balls, as per above.

It's still to me an interesting subject matter and I suppose if more finds can be made and documented, "maybe" it could answer some of the anomalies at least. But that photo of Ray's Kingfisher box, just blows all out of the water, especially referencing it to the 33 jobbers list, which clearly states that number is for a Pacific reel,  very confusing.  I don't know the chances of finding more such reels and boxes here down under, but you never know, I do hope more show up, I mean you have pretty well nailed most things on Penn reels, with your research and books.
I don't have to many trade reels as such, but a definite interest is boiling.
Thanks again Mike for your invaluable info you have shared, which I'm sure you realise, is appreciated by all that share this passion and interest....

Trade Reels are a study in an undocumented market, that is what makes it so difficult. A trade Reel is a particular manufacturer in disguise. There are some new collectors that have a particular fascination with them. Mostly see them on Facebook. The future of Penn collecting is strong, keep the faith, more info will come out.
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