alan tani @ alantani.com fishing reel repair rebuild tutorial Drag Fade
Reel Repair by Alan Tani
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Rivverrat
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« on: November 20, 2016, 07:34:54 PM »

How noticable or bad during a extended fight is the drag fade with some of the drag upgrades with a Tib 4/0 frame. I'm looking at coming up with a small - midsize shark reel that can maintain 25 lbs. of drag. The simplicity of a senator star drag would be a nice thing. However I cant help but think a Penn 16VSX might be better money spent. Any thoughts appreciated....Jeff
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Bill B (Tarfu)
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« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2016, 08:04:58 PM »

Jeff, as I understand drag fade it is the effect of the drag washers heating up during a long fight, by changing to carbon fiber from asbestos less fade is realized and when you add a drag grease this helps even further, allowing longer fights by reducing the heat causing friction....I know little about the 16VSX, but with a larger drag surface of the drag disc, carbon fiber and grease I would think the fight could be even longer than traditional star drags.  I can only guess but the 16vsx surface would be more surface than a stock 114H ?....Going to a 7+1 adds even more surface....JMO I am sure someone more knowledgeable will chime in...... Bill
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Ron Jones
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« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2016, 08:18:06 PM »

I agree. CF star drags have been used to catch the biggest fish on surprisingly small reels. Sal has done tests demonstrating that 25# is a reasonable working range for the new versa-drag systems that are being produced on here. A frame will be a must, as will other internal upgrades to deal with the extra stress. You can get most of the same upgrades for a 114HLW and, as much as I love the 113H, it may be a better rig for running sharks that require 25#s of drag. the increase in weight will be negligible.
Ron
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Rivverrat
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« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2016, 09:10:02 PM »

Yup it's all do to heat or the drag not having the means to deal with it.
Noyb, your most likely right about the 6/0 being the better tool for the task....Jeff
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Tightlines667
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« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2016, 09:22:42 PM »

Lever drag's perform much better with regards to heat dissapation, and reduced effects of drag fade in a prolonged battle.  The Tiagras are worth a look if this is a primary concern.  They have a hydrothermal device which expands proportionally with increased heat to keep the pressure on the fish.  Larger spool diameter, weight, and drag disc diameter all help here as well.  The upgraded star drags can perform, but they will not match up to lever drags with regards to heat dissapation IMHO.
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Alto Mare
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« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2016, 09:36:18 PM »

Maintaining 25 lbs will be tough on any reel. As the guys have mentioned, you would definitely be better off with a 114h loaded with goodies, but would love to see what the our 113H would do.
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« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2016, 10:12:27 PM »

for 25 pounds of drag, i'd think that a 6/0 or 9/0 would be preferred.  the shark guys would know better.  this drag fade business is also something we need to look at in an organized and systematic fashion.  there are hints of problems that i had not foreseen. Undecided

« Last Edit: November 20, 2016, 10:13:58 PM by alantani » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2016, 10:27:48 PM »

Almost 50% loss in drag is surprising. I wonder what the spool RPM would have been. It did not seem that it was an unreasonable speed for a large fish or to long of a run. One thing that would help the fisherman is the fact that reducing spool diameter by line paying out increases drag. I'd llike to see what a magnum, with 4/0 drags would do in the same situation.
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« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2016, 11:31:56 PM »

I am not wishing to come across as a know it it all. Simply because I know just enough to have a solid realization of just how little I do know.
However already knowing what Alan's vid showed... was my reason for asking this question. I am amazed at the drag level my Andros 12's will make. 20-25 lbs. of glass smooth drag. But they are far from being 60 or 80 lb. line class reels.  Unable to handle the heat generated by long runs along with other issues reels this size have trouble overcoming. This issue only gets worse as the initial drag setting is increased. Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems the 9/0 & 12/0 reels wooped big fish with line capacity vs high drag ?

Any way regarding my question it seems that the consensus is  useing a Senator the 114 6/0 with appropriate upgrades would be better choice for a midsize reel....Jeff  
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« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2016, 11:37:35 PM »

I've wondered what affect an aluminum star with stainless, threaded insert would have if any on this heat issue. Could it be enough of a heat sink to help ?
 
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jurelometer
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« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2016, 12:27:37 AM »

According the stuff I read, the thickeners in grease  lose viscosity with heat, decreasing the coefficient of friction.   Lower CEF  = less drag at the same amount of force.  Kind of make sense.   If you had to run across a room filled knee deep with peanut butter or with water, which would take more work?

Alan's test  is turning the opposite set  of drag parts that a fish taking line would turn.  Probably doesn't make any t difference, but thought it was worth mentioning.

A couple things to think about.

1.  Since leverage is lost as spool diameter decreases (drag pressure will go up as spool diameter decreases),  some amount of drag fade may not be a bad thing if it is temporary and compensates for spool diameter decrease in that critical first run.

The following items get my usual disclaimer about not trusting my math  Smiley  but as best as I can figure it:

2.   Although a large amount of heat is generated, it is for a relatively short time.  At 15 miles per hour, it takes only 54 seconds to run 400 yards. At an average spool diameter of 2 inches we are talking about 2500 rpm.

3.  A 400 yard run at 25 lbs drag would generate around 40,000 joules of energy.    That would be enough to energy to raise the heat of a very large stainless disk (100x10 mm with a 20mm hole) about 580 degrees Fahrenheit.   So the drag system cannot act solely as a heat sink  even though the duration is usually short (the fish stops, or you run out of line).    Approximating Alan's test: a 200 yard run at 8 lbs drag would generate 6500 joules which would heat up a 50x5mm stainless disk about 320 degrees Fahrenheit (minus any ongoing cooling)

Heat dissipation  has to be part of the design at these high drag settings.   Reel designs don't do a very good job of moving heat, hence the need for large heavy reels that act as a larger heat sink.    As Alan has said, reel design really hasn't caught up with spectra...

Regarding the question about aluminum stars-   yes aluminum is a better conductor of heat than brass or especially stainless,  but that heat has to travel up through the drag stack, spacer and to the star.   So an oversized aluminum star with thin fins, holes, etc and an aluminum spacer would help dissipate the heat better, but the drag stack inside of a stainless gear and sleeve is pretty well insulated, so it is possible it would not make enough of a difference. Somebody would have to try it.   In the end, there are limits to what a star drag can handle. 

-J
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« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2016, 01:07:44 AM »

i wasn't too worried about our practice of greasing drags after this test because i knew that a fish would never put this level of stress on a reel. 

Quote
At 15 miles per hour, it takes only 54 seconds to run 400 yards.

the fish would be long gone before the reel would heat up to the levels that i was seeing on the winder.  still, it remains a concern.  conversely, there are many on the "dark side" that use greased drags and we seem to be landing fish ok!   Grin
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« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2016, 01:17:27 AM »

I've wondered what affect an aluminum star with stainless, threaded insert would have if any on this heat issue. Could it be enough of a heat sink to help ?
 

Aluminum is a better conducter than SS so it probably won't help.
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« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2016, 01:18:52 AM »

Alan, did you happen to run the test again after the first run? I only ask because something has occurred to me. I learned from you and therefore put a healthy amount of grease on my drag disks. I have found that it takes a bit for those disks to settle down, I imagine from getting the excess grease out from between the disks. I am wondering if that reel at that setting still makes 8 pounds of drag, and if it doesn't, would it do better the next time around when you adjust the drag back up to 8 pounds.
I hope that makes sense.
Ron
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Ronald Jones
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« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2016, 01:30:11 AM »

Very cool video! I guess that if you hooked into a biggun the drag fade would help as you watched your line disappear and would have to button down the drag once you stopped it's run. It would be great to see a test with a lever drag reel as well Thanks for taking the time to do this video guys. 
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