Drag Fade

[Bryan Young]

 

Way above my pay grade. My head is starting to hurt.

[Alto Mare]

Way above my pay grade. My head is starting to hurt.

Yeah, mine too, but don't discourage these guys, I'm taking it all in

[RowdyW]

All this is simple to remedy. Just take a reel with you that can stop them dead. Lock it down, no slippage, no heat, more fun fishing not having to wonder about senseless crap. 

[Alto Mare]

All this is simple to remedy. Just take a reel with you that can stop them dead. Lock it down, no slippage, no heat, more fun fishing not having to wonder about senseless crap. 

Control your temper Rudy 
No senseless crap here, this is all good.
If these guys are boring simply move on and don't look

[Rothmar2]

Control your temper Rudy 
No senseless crap here, this is all good.
If these guys are boring simply move on and don't look

Keep it coming guys, it's got my interest. Been scrounging for some high strength alloy to "try" something....

[Three se7ens]

High end spinning reels(specifically the saltiga and stella) design in features that promote cooling of the drag.  There is a lot of space for airflow, the spool is aluminum, and and has a large surface area ideal for radiating large amounts of heat.  And from what I have read, the reels do a great job keeping the drag cool even during the hardest runs.

In a star drag, you have a limited opportunity to remove heat.  All these stainless steel components do not absorb or transfer heat readily.  So while they are not good for cooling, they also will not absorb as much heat in a given time period.  In addition, stainless holds its strength to high temperatures.  It wont matter how hot the components get, as long as the service temperature is not exceeded.  While carbon fiber is vastly superior to the alternatives in its maximum service temperature, I think the typical stuff with the stiff fiberglass core is limiting performance in this case. 

Anyone interested in carbon fiber reinforced graphite drag washers?  I found a supplier.

http://www.ceramaterials.com/images/Ceramaterials_CFC_Composites.pdf

[Rivverrat]

..... more fun fishing not having to wonder about senseless crap.  

Funny I have to remind myself at times thats a big reason why I fish. But none the less I'm glad to see this thread evolve to where it's at....Jeff

[Bill B]

It is amazing how such a seemingly simple question can evolve into such a technical response.....reminds me of the looks I get when I ask one of the engineers at work a "simple" question    I really enjoy this technical aspect of fishing reels....Bill

[jurelometer]

For an engineer,  simple = no fun 


When we start talking about stuff like 400 yards at 30 lbs of drag, the amount of thermal energy generated is pretty impressive (enough to heat half a pound of stainless nearly 800 degrees F) - and probably not something we are going to hot rod into to in a star drag design  (IMHO) 

In addition to Adam's thoughts about looking at the CF washers, I think there are probably some opportunities for improving the cooling, maybe messing with the top hat, spacer and star design to draw more heat off the stack + heavy porting (holes)  in the main gear.   If the bridge plate is getting hot, maybe some porting there as well.  Since the spool is spinning when all this is  happening, there should be a way to use it like a fan.

BTW to loop us back around to the beginning of this thread- I saw on the Pure fishing (Penn's parent) website an article that stated HT-100 (presumably dry) will decrease in coefficient of friction as it gets hot.  So Alan's test done with a dry stack should see some amount of fade as well.

[Three se7ens]

For an engineer,  simple = no fun 


When we start talking about stuff like 400 yards at 30 lbs of drag, the amount of thermal energy generated is pretty impressive (enough to heat half a pound of stainless nearly 800 degrees F) - and probably not something we are going to hot rod into to in a star drag design  (IMHO) 

In addition to Adam's thoughts about looking at the CF washers, I think there are probably some opportunities for improving the cooling, maybe messing with the top hat, spacer and star design to draw more heat off the stack + heavy porting (holes)  in the main gear.   If the bridge plate is getting hot, maybe some porting there as well.  Since the spool is spinning when all this is  happening, there should be a way to use it like a fan.

BTW to loop us back around to the beginning of this thread- I saw on the Pure fishing (Penn's parent) website an article that stated HT-100 (presumably dry) will decrease in coefficient of friction as it gets hot.  So Alan's test done with a dry stack should see some amount of fade as well.

Sal and I have discussed a finned top hat for the reels with the easy access drag.  I dont know if the benefits would be worth the effort, but Id still like to see it tested. 

My wife says I cant leave anything well enough alone.  I cant disagree. 

[Bryan Young]

No discouragement here. I'm wowed by the discussion.

[oc1]

Pouring water or your beer on the reel is starting to sound like a perfectly reasonable solution after all.  Better yet, put a fitting on the head plate so water can be flushed through the reel as needed.  
-steve

[rippin_lips]

For an engineer,  simple = no fun 


When we start talking about stuff like 400 yards at 30 lbs of drag, the amount of thermal energy generated is pretty impressive (enough to heat half a pound of stainless nearly 800 degrees F) - and probably not something we are going to hot rod into to in a star drag design  (IMHO) 

Respectfully, you're close but you're incorrect.  The drag force and distance of line is the reels performance.  We are talking about the drag washers.  The heat is generated by the friction at the surfaces of the drag washers.  The frictional force of one drag washers surface is not the same thing as the drag force of the entire fishing reel.  The frictional force at the surface of the drag washer moving with speed is the work that creates the heat, plain and simple.  You are confusing the performance of the entire drag and reel system, with the drag washers themselves.  This is why the drag forces of the reel can be altered by changing the number/size/orientation of the drag washers.  The drag washers are a subsystem of the reel, and are the heat generators not the reel itself.  Make sense?

I will stop beating this dead horse now, but understanding the difference between a frictional force at a drag washers surface and the total performance of the entire drag/reel system is crucial to making any changes.

[jurelometer]

For an engineer,  simple = no fun 


When we start talking about stuff like 400 yards at 30 lbs of drag, the amount of thermal energy generated is pretty impressive (enough to heat half a pound of stainless nearly 800 degrees F) - and probably not something we are going to hot rod into to in a star drag design  (IMHO) 

Respectfully, you're close but you're incorrect.  The drag force and distance of line is the reels performance.  We are talking about the drag washers.  The heat is generated by the friction at the surfaces of the drag washers.  The frictional force of one drag washers surface is not the same thing as the drag force of the entire fishing reel.  The frictional force at the surface of the drag washer moving with speed is the work that creates the heat, plain and simple.  You are confusing the performance of the entire drag and reel system, with the drag washers themselves.  This is why the drag forces of the reel can be altered by changing the number/size/orientation of the drag washers.  The drag washers are a subsystem of the reel, and are the heat generators not the reel itself.  Make sense?

I will stop beating this dead horse now, but understanding the difference between a frictional force at a drag washers surface and the total performance of the entire drag/reel system is crucial to making any changes.

Let me also give this dead horse one more whack, then I am going to move on too.   

With all due respect, we are are talking about system performance not just drag washers.

Sometimes when we are confident in our logic, we miss that the other person is making a different point.   That goes for me too 

Feel free to PM me if you want to discuss more, but we are probably boring everybody else at this point.

   

[Ron Jones]

Most important part of all this. If the reel is spooled with mono try to keep the water off the line, it doesn't like to be cooled fast when it is hot!
Ron