Old, Weird, Historical, and Unusual Spinning Reels --

Started by foakes, August 26, 2017, 06:36:33 PM

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happyhooker

Quote from: Gfish on March 15, 2018, 09:04:12 PM
Didn't even know OC made spinners...


Don't hear enough about this old company.  Thanks, guys, for the look.

Frank

foakes

Most of us have heard about the more famous French reels — Mitchell, Luxor, etc..

How about these?

Centaure, Savoy, Bretton?

Take a look at the engineering of the Savoy 702 in the middle.

Then the Martin/Bretton on the right.

Last, the steer horn bail Centaure on the left.  I still fish one of these as a personal reel occasionally.  They are well balanced, and when fishing with a loose line — no bail is easier to engage and disengage quickly.

Best,

Fred

The Official, Un-Authorized Service and Restoration Center for quality vintage spinning reels.

D-A-M Quick, Penn, Mitchell, and ABU/Zebco Cardinals

--------

The first rule of fishing is to fish where the fish are. The second rule of fishing is to never forget the first rule.

"Enjoy the little things in Life — For someday, you may look back — and realize that they were the big things"
                                                     Fred O.

Shark Hunter

#167
I keep meaning to get one of those Centaures.
Just old School Cool. ;)
Life is Good!

philaroman

#168
Quote from: foakes on March 22, 2018, 10:31:12 PM
the steer horn bail Centaure...  no bail is easier to engage and disengage quickly.

yeah, but no bail is more dangerous:

was playing around w/ a Pacific, but stupid me didn't have it mounted...
just holding the foot loosely, crankin' hard & marveling "how well-made"
when I jammed the horn into the soft spot between my knuckles  :o :'( >:(
Top-5 bloodless fishing injury via stupidity
tied w/ unsnagging braid in shallow water, w/ dowel at chest level
& getting popped between the eyes w/ a 1-oz egg  :o :'( >:(  

what can I say, my Indian name is Runs-With-Scissors    ;D

Midway Tommy

I've got a couple of Brettons but haven't opened them up yet. That looks like fairly decent inside. I've also got a LH - RH wind Centaure I've yet to explore. It's quite a bit bigger & heavier than the 600 I did a couple of weeks ago.

I'm currently working on 3 Swiss Fix-Reels, a PUM, a half bail & a full bail from the late '40s - '50. They've got a big rotor & short leg and that half bail is a real knuckle buster. OUCH! It is clearly an index finger only in front of the leg.  ::) I'll post some pics when I get them done. Their paint adhesion isn't very good. It's kind of a hammered type finish that flakes off easily, especially after they've soaked in dawn & water for 10 minutes. Haven't had that happen before.  :( 
Love those open face spinning reels! (Especially ABU & ABU/Zebco Cardinals)

Tommy D (ORCA), NE



Favorite Activity? ............... In our boat fishing
RELAXING w/ MY BEST FRIEND (My wife Bonnie)

Midway Tommy

Awhile back I posted a couple of photos of, and discussed, this Louis Johnson Sure-spin 640 from the mid '50s.



Fred posted a couple of photos of a full bail Sure-spin 348.

Louis Johnson had a few different model spinning reels in the mid '50s. Here's the workings of a Sure-spin 420. It is similar in construction to the 640 with the nylon main gear, light weight body, etc., except the 420 has a pot metal pinion gear, the spool oscillates and it has a PUM (manual line pickup). It weights about 6oz.



Here are both the 420 & 640 together. They're cute little reels and a couple of my favorite talk about pieces.  :)


Love those open face spinning reels! (Especially ABU & ABU/Zebco Cardinals)

Tommy D (ORCA), NE



Favorite Activity? ............... In our boat fishing
RELAXING w/ MY BEST FRIEND (My wife Bonnie)

oc1

That 640 is about as simple as you can get.  The trouble is, the line is not untwisted as it is retrieved and spooled.  So, twists put in the line on the cast are not being untwisted on the retrieve.  After a few casts the twists will accumulate unless the terminal tackle spins well.

Still neat reels though.
-steve

1badf350

#172
Man you guys gotta check out the spinners that Ed Pritchard posted on ORCA. Very cool
-Chris

"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to other people and I require the same from them."
John Wayne as J.B. Books in "The Shootist"

happyhooker

#173
Quote from: foakes on March 22, 2018, 10:31:12 PM

How about these?

Centaure, Savoy, Bretton?

...


The Martin name is mentioned with Bretton, and I'm thinking it's the same Martin name related to the reel company in New York that is usually linked with fly reels.  However, I've seen Bretton boxes which mention that they are [were] exclusively distributed in the US by Ocean City in Philly.  Guessing OC distributed them in the '50s, maybe, and Martin got in on things later.  Have also seen a box with "Bretton Industries" and a St. Louis address.  Earlier reels were French made; I think the drag knobs or spool fronts had "Avisser" and "Devisser" stamped on them, which I assume means something along the line of "tighten" and "loosen".  Like a lot of manufacturers, build moved to Taiwan/Japan in the '80s and by '92 it was all over.

There's also a Bretton/Zangi/Orvis connection; thinking Zangi made reels for the other two & there may have been some shared patents.  Zangi made reels for Ted Williams (Sears) and Abu; was acquired by Coptes in '72; Coptes got Alcedo in '75 also by my info.  Need a scorecard to see Who's on 1st.

Some versions of the Bretton 804 had a hammered-look light green paint, with a red emblem or trim, and they are very visually attractive reels.

Frank


Midway Tommy

#174
Quote from: happyhooker on March 29, 2018, 08:54:21 PM
Quote from: foakes on March 22, 2018, 10:31:12 PM

How about these?

Centaure, Savoy, Bretton?

...


The Martin name is mentioned with Bretton, and I'm thinking it's the same Martin name related to the reel company in New York that is usually linked with fly reels.  However, I've seen Bretton boxes which mention that they are [were] exclusively distributed in the US by Ocean City in Philly.  Guessing OC distributed them in the '50s, maybe, and Martin got in on things later.  Have also seen a box with "Bretton Industries" and a St. Louis address.  Earlier reels were French made; I think the drag knobs or spool fronts had "Avisser" and "Devisser" stamped on them, which I assume means something along the line of "tighten" and "loosen".  Like a lot of manufacturers, build moved to Taiwan/Japan in the '80s and by '92 it was all over.

There's also a Bretton/Zangi/Orvis connection; thinking Zangi made reels for the other two & there may have been some shared patents.  Zangi made reels for Ted Williams (Sears) and Abu; was acquired by Coptes in '72; Coptes got Alcedo in '75 also by my info.  Need a scorecard to see Who's on 1st.

Some versions of the Bretton 804 had a hammered-look light green paint, with a red emblem or trim, and they are very visually attractive reels.

Frank

All reels using Bretton as part of their name were made in France until the early '80s when the company was reorganized & renamed Bretton International, and from that point until they ceased in 1992, reels were made in Taiwan & Japan. Bretton started making reels in 1952. Early on Bretton claimed it was second only to Mitchell in sales. A few years later in the mid/late '50s Ocean City imported them. Around 1970 Martin of Mohawk, NY started importing them and also used their name. Bretton made reels for Sears during the late '50s & early '60s, too. I've never heard of a Bretton connection any Italian makers.   
Love those open face spinning reels! (Especially ABU & ABU/Zebco Cardinals)

Tommy D (ORCA), NE



Favorite Activity? ............... In our boat fishing
RELAXING w/ MY BEST FRIEND (My wife Bonnie)

sdlehr

Quote from: 1badf350 on March 29, 2018, 07:12:08 AM
Man you guys gotta check out the spinners that Ed Pritchard posted on ORCA. Very cool
Yeah, I came to this thread to say just that. Click here
Sid Lehr
Veterinarian, fishing enthusiast, custom rod builder, reel collector

happyhooker

Quote from: Midway Tommy on March 29, 2018, 10:35:44 PM

I've never heard of a Bretton connection any Italian makers.   


There was a man (Frenchman?) on ORCA some years ago who claimed the Italians always thought the Bretton 602 was a copy of a Zangi model and that some French collectors thought there was some sort of joint venture between the two companies; also speculated about patent issues, the companies sharing patents, etc.  Admittedly, nothing conclusive.

The Bretton 602 and Zangi Pelican 100 do have some points of resemblance.

Frank

Midway Tommy

Quote from: happyhooker on April 01, 2018, 02:33:44 AM
Quote from: Midway Tommy on March 29, 2018, 10:35:44 PM

I've never heard of a Bretton connection any Italian makers.   


There was a man (Frenchman?) on ORCA some years ago who claimed the Italians always thought the Bretton 602 was a copy of a Zangi model and that some French collectors thought there was some sort of joint venture between the two companies; also speculated about patent issues, the companies sharing patents, etc.  Admittedly, nothing conclusive.

The Bretton 602 and Zangi Pelican 100 do have some points of resemblance.

Frank

That would be Jean-Paul from Belgium. Most of that was supposition and no one has ever actually tied the two companies together. The most logical summation is that Bretton actually copied the Pelican, mainly because the anti-reverse button was a different style & in a different location, and a couple of years later Bretton changed the leg from straight to curved, more than likely under pressure from Zangi. No one has ever been able to tie the French Bretton patent holders to Zangi other than the fact that they were of Italian heritage.
Love those open face spinning reels! (Especially ABU & ABU/Zebco Cardinals)

Tommy D (ORCA), NE



Favorite Activity? ............... In our boat fishing
RELAXING w/ MY BEST FRIEND (My wife Bonnie)

Midway Tommy

#178
I acquired this rare Minerva about three years ago. It was filthy but I could tell that underneath all the grunge the outside was in otherwise excellent condition. When it arrived, though, it had a little (actually pretty big) problem. The rotor cup moved in and out about a ½" and the ½ bail wouldn't trip correctly. When I disassembled it a couple of years ago I found that the main shaft oscillation tube, which has a cross piece, i.e. bail trip arm, brazed onto the rotor cup end, had been completely broken in half at the front end of the oscillation slide slot. The tube is secured by a through pin at the rear of the body housing. The pin connection was obscured by old grease and gunk and it took me awhile to figure out how to remove the tube. So, my best guess is that at some point someone tried to remove the tube by unscrewing it with a wrench or pliers and twisted it in half at its weakest point. The reel was basically useless and there was no way to repair the part so I decided I was going to have to make a new one from scratch by hand.

Once disassembled, I performed my usual cleaning process. I soaked all the unpainted metal parts, except the plated side-plates, for a couple of days in lacquer thinner. All other parts, including the plastic spool and handle knob, were thoroughly scrubbed with my favorite reel cleaner/degreaser, Original White GOOP Hand Cleaner, and then washed in Dawn dishwashing detergent and scrubbed with a tooth brush. After cleaning the painted parts were a little dull and somewhat oxidized so I used some of my old Turtle Wax Aluminum and Fiberglass Boat Rubbing Compound, which is fairly mild, on the painted surfaces inside and out. I used Clear Coat Polishing Compound on the plated side plates. I then applied a coat of Formula One Carnauba Auto Wax on everything for an amazingly glossy shine.

I went to the hardware store and bought a ¼" O.D. stainless steel tube with an I.D. smaller than the main shaft. I also picked up a couple of ½" stainless steel fender washers to make the bail trip cross bar. With a lot of time, patience and the originals for patterns, my finished part turned out great and works perfectly.

I had read about the Minerva in Ben Wright's books and had also discussed it with him. He had previously owned one but said he sold it and it had found its way back to Italy. Ben suggested that I contact a couple of Italian collectors to find out a little more information about it. I did some extensive research and learned that the Minerva originated sometime prior to 1943 because it had been referenced in a 1943 First Edition Italian book called "Run", and, when translated, inferred in those early days to a half bail ultra-light. I contacted the collectors in Italy to see if they had any photos of the inner mechanical workings of the reel so that I could determine whether or not my reel was complete. One of them graciously disassembled his Minerva, photographed it and sent me the pictures. The reels have a number stamped on both sides of the body frame and on the back of both side plates. His reel is # 94. Thanks to their generosity I was able to confirm that my Minerva, which is # 51, was indeed complete and all parts were original. They also informed me that the Minerva is an extremely rare reel and only 3 or 4 models were known to be in existence.

Below are a few photos taken throughout my restoration process. Unfortunately I didn't take any photos of the reel before I started disassembly. I did, though, take a couple of pics during the process so I could remember how to put it back together again.

Here are the three photos I took while taking the reel apart. The tube is retained by a vertical through pin at the back of the body but it is completely hidden by grease. You can see in the 3rd picture that the tube is broken at the front of the oscillation slide slot.



 

These are some of the tools I used to make the main shaft oscillation tube. The ¼" SS tube, solid brass insert to strengthen the pinned end of the tube, a couple of chainsaw files to ream the inside of the tube to fit the main shaft, fine flat file, 5/64" bit for the 3/32" through pin hole and mini plumber's hack saw. Not pictured are a bench grinder, drill, mini torch for brazing the tube to the trip arm and an extra fine mini file.
 



Here are what's left of the SS tube & SS fender washer and most of the parts all cleaned up and ready to reassemble. You can see the #51 on the body and back of both side plates in the 2nd picture.




Here are a few pictures taken during assembly. I opted to add two thin Mylar washers that were not included originally. I added one between the body and rotor cup to help prevent dirt from entering the rotor cup/pinion gear bushing. I added the other one between the bail trip cross bar and a felt washer inside the rotor cup to help eliminate some dirt from getting into the felt. Originally the felt washer was the only thing between the rotor cup and bail trip cross bar.



 




Here are a couple of different angles of the reel complete and ready for display, but it could actually be fished.





It works perfectly and looks great! A neat little 75+ year old spinning reel that was made in Italy during the WWII era, and is probably why they are so rare.
Love those open face spinning reels! (Especially ABU & ABU/Zebco Cardinals)

Tommy D (ORCA), NE



Favorite Activity? ............... In our boat fishing
RELAXING w/ MY BEST FRIEND (My wife Bonnie)

oc1

Wow.  Amazing work Tommy and a very handsome reel too.  Is it a press fit to attach the new tube to the bail trip arm?
-steve