Speedy Penn 210 with 505 gears?

[Decker]

I got an idea to put a 5:1 Jigmaster gear set into a Penn 210.  It started on a thread about the 309.  I took a cue from Mike.

I'm pretty sure the Pro Challenger jigmaster main gears will only work with his pinions. A PC 4.8:1 set should fit in the 210 if you replace both gears, but they wont work the 309...
Back to the 210, I will put a 4.8:1 PC or Newell set in a 210 after I finish the 10 I'm working on, and a couple of extra bits for my 501N.

Mike

I found someone selling a stock 505 gear set on auction at a decent price and jumped on it.  I know the 505 gears have a somewhat of a bad rep, but a thread I read by Alan about drag strength on various reels seemed to suggest that the brass 505 gear would be okay with drag under  10 lbs.  This reel would not be a powerhouse, but good for getting baits up fast for mid-depth bottom fishing.

Last night I gave it a shot, installing the 505 main and pinion in my 210.  I should have looked more closely... The height of the main gears is different.  The 505 main has a lip along the top that makes it higher, and when I installed it, it rubbed against the side plate.  Here are some comparison pics, with the 500 gears on the left and the 210 gears on the right:

[Decker]

I don't have a picture of the side plate, but it seems to me there are two options for moving forward:

• Grind down the side plate to accomodate the higher 505 gear
• Grind the lip off the 505 gear.

I'm a total beginner with this stuff and would appreciate any practical advice.  I have a Dremel but would be wary of doing any reel grinding without a press to hold it in place.  probably it is better to preserve the gear.  I don't know if there is enough meat on the sideplate to grind away and make the gear fit.  

The pinion swap seems okay.  The drags are the same, and the 505 gear seems to fit the pinion from the 210 just fine.

[alantani]

check the inside diameter of the pinion gear.  you may have to drill it out. 

[Crow]

  I'm a "beginner " as well, but...I would say if the distance between the center of the spool shaft, and the center of the gear sleeve is the same on both reels.....the gear "mesh" should be correct. And, if the pinion fits the spool (or, can be drilled to fit,as Alan suggested) you should be good to go, in that respect, as well. As to the "taller" gear...can you "ream out" the center of the hole,completely.....i.e....make it into an "externally serviced drag" configuration ? That would allow for the height of the gear , although you might have to make, or adapt, some sort of a "top hat" style upper washer.    Just a thought !

[Decker]

Thanks for the input, guys.

[mo65]

   I think you can make that gear fit Joe...but you'll have to ream that gear set hole in the side plate the depth of that lip on the 505 gear. It would definitely test your dremel skills. I'd try the 505's pinion to see how it fits the spool shaft before going too far.

[mhc]

If you haven't got a press or stand for your dremel it might be easier, to sand the lip down on the brass 505 main. Put a piece of 120 or maybe 80 grit sand paper on a flat surface (piece of glass is good) and move the gear in a circular or figure 8 motion keeping an eye on the height as you go - depending on the thickness of the under gear washer you use, you probably won't have to remove all the 'lip'. Use a finer grade paper to finish it off.
Someone has ground one down on here - can't remember who, probably Sal   
And what Mo said - make sure the 505 pinion fits the spool first.

Mike

[Keta]

I would modify the gear using either with my belt grinder or a friends lathe.

The 210 uses a 13-140 pinion gear not a 13-500.  I do not know if this will be a problem.

[Decker]

Thanks again, guys.  I need to check the pinion fit first thing.  I put the reel back together with the stock gears; probably should have left it apart  .  

Interesting suggestion about sanding down the main gear... Seems like a lot of metal to sand away.  Hand sanding is preferable to a belt sander?

I might just buy a drill press for the dremel.  Seems like I could use it for other projects like double-dogging, lure-making, and drilling out a pinion.

Would be nice to have one of those digital calipers for this kind of project too.

[jurelometer]

1.  The center distance of the gear sets has to be identical.  The smaller the teeth ( like on a 505) the more exact this measurement needs to be.  But we are always  talking about a couple thousandths of an inch.   You can see if you are even in the ballpark by dry fitting the gear sets on a piece of paper, use a ball point pin to mark your guess of the center of both gear holes.   if you can tell that you are off with this rough measurement,  then you are toast.  If it looks like you might have a match then you can invest in in measurement tools, or just give it a try and see if you get lucky.


2. Some gear theory 101:   Gear sets are very unlikely to be interchangeable unless designed for this purpose.     The gear ratio comes from ratio  of pitch  diameters (diameter at roughly the center of the tooth). The gears work without accelerating/banging/binding because the pitch circles touch and the teeth are the same size/type.  When the pinion diameter is already small,  there is not enough room to make the pinion pitch diameter much smaller ( smaller teeth  on both the pinion and main buys some room, but not a lot).   That means unless you relocate it, the main gear  cannot get larger.  This is why some old penn reels with different gear ratios can share a common pinion part number- that just means that the tooth size/shape is compatible.  But the main  shaft will be farther from the spindle on the high ratio reel, meaning the full  gear sets will not be compatible.   For your project to work, you will need   a replacement gear set that has the exact same center distance, but a different ratio of pitch diameters,  otherwise you will need a custom  bridge and probably sideplate modifications.


3.  Don't know if this is an option, but you might want to consider reshaping  a  complete 505 bridge assembly.  Sal did something similar to use a 349 gear set in a 149.   If you can squeeze a modified 505 assembly into a 210 sideplate, AND the pinion is compatible with the 210 spindle ( hole diameter, pinion travel distance when engaging,  that rectangular thingy where the pinion engages with the spool)... Long odds, but you never know.

-J

[Alto Mare]

You should be able to make the faster gears work, I did some similar here:
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=4199.msg31547#msg31547
Some Prochallenger's pinions on the 5:1 gear set don't need to be modified. You will still need to test those if they'll woek in your reel.

Sal

[Decker]

You should be able to make the faster gears work, I did some similar here:
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=4199.msg31547#msg31547
Some Prochallenger's pinions on the 5:1 gear set don't need to be modified. You will still need to test those if they'll woek in your reel.

Sal

Sal, thanks, that post is just what the doctor ordered.  Interesting that in that post you recommend not beefing up the drags on the smaller reels, and I can see how the 210 is vulnerable, especially with the level wind. 

[Decker]

And thanks, Jurelometer, for the lesson on gear fitting!   /Joe

[Keta]

Sal, thanks, that post is just what the doctor ordered.  Interesting that in that post you recommend not beefing up the drags on the smaller reels, and I can see how the 210 is vulnerable, especially with the level wind.  

Penn level wind systems work for salmon speed but tend to fail at tuna speed.   The 209 has caught a lot of salmon over the years and the 210 is a better reel.  My go to salmon reel when I lived in SE Alaska was the smaller 10 and I never had LW issues.

[mo65]

   There's that thread! I looked for that dude a few days ago but couldn't remember where I saw it, good investigative work Sal.