Mitchell 314 -- Question

[wfjord]

I don't know if shimming beneath the rotor is a good idea or not as it would be pulling the pinion away from the main gear to some degree. There is, however, a slight bit of in-and-out play between the rotor and body of the reel, so...

Steve, the bail stops against the upper back side of the area that houses the bail spring and bail arm screw. I noticed part of the bail stop area is hammered down very slightly, but it's almost indiscernible, maybe a millimeter --the paint is not worn down to the metal there.  I can see how that could keep the line guide from laying line in the top area of the spool, but would that also cause the line to wound onto the spool at an overall diagonal angle?  Still, if there's a way to shim or build up the bail stop, it could be beneficial to at least part of the problem --what's the best way to do that?


Observing the "bobbling" action of the spool, as Fred perfectly described it, the gearing mechanism keeps the spool up high more often than down low.  The spool bobbles down to it's lower position much less often.  So far I've not been able to reset the gear position in a way that improves it. On the last reset I did, there was one point in the intervals where the spool is at an apex and if I press on the top of it, the spool and shaft freely drop down to a lower position; that hadn't happened before.

I'd like to be able to get this reel working properly... but I'm starting to get a bad feeling about it.

[foakes]

Don't get discouraged -- at this point, the real learning occurs...

I have any parts necessary to provide you (NC) once we determine the issue/issues.

Shims, bail, bail trip, screws, rotor, etc..

You have received good advice from some very experienced reel wizards -- you will get it back in perfect order.

At this point, I am leaning towards worn issues with an out of alignment bail or bail stop -- or a combination of factors that add up to an issue.

Best,

Fred

[Midway Tommy]

I don't know if shimming beneath the rotor is a good idea or not as it would be pulling the pinion away from the main gear to some degree. There is, however, a slight bit of in-and-out play between the rotor and body of the reel, so...

There should be little, if any, play between the body and rotor. Paper thin, at the most, so that the rotor spins freely without rubbing or binding on the body housing. If you have play as you say the pinion gear is automatically pulling away from the main gear whenever line tension is put on the spool.

In restoring old worn spinning reels where replacement parts were obsolete I have had to add a thin shim between the rotor and body to take up slack and correct line lay many times. I generally try to use an appropriate thickness bronze or brass shim, although, when excessive noise is a problem I've been known to use a thin nylon or teflon shim to shush it down a little.   

[newfuturevintage]

That is one pretty reel.  I only knew of the 304.  I wasn't aware of at 314.

Likewise. And because I've got a problem, there's one coming to me in the mail off the bay now 

[handi2]

I will find some shims for that reel. It shouldn't have any noticeable play between the rotor and body of the reel. It may have had shims at one time. All of them did but they get worked on so much they get lost.

The one Mitchell 300 I did the other day had 3 shims on the pinion gear. 3 more inside the reel. Most of the time there are none in the reel after its been apart so many times over the years.

[wfjord]

Don't get discouraged -- at this point, the real learning occurs...

I have any parts necessary to provide you (NC) once we determine the issue/issues.

Shims, bail, bail trip, screws, rotor, etc..

You have received good advice from some very experienced reel wizards -- you will get it back in perfect order.

At this point, I am leaning towards worn issues with an out of alignment bail or bail stop -- or a combination of factors that add up to an issue.

Best,

Fred

Fred, thanks for the encouragement and your offer of any parts I might need.  Hopefully we'll figure out fairly soon what those parts will be.

There should be little, if any, play between the body and rotor. Paper thin, at the most, so that the rotor spins freely without rubbing or binding on the body housing. If you have play as you say the pinion gear is automatically pulling away from the main gear whenever line tension is put on the spool.

In restoring old worn spinning reels where replacement parts were obsolete I have had to add a thin shim between the rotor and body to take up slack and correct line lay many times. I generally try to use an appropriate thickness bronze or brass shim, although, when excessive noise is a problem I've been known to use a thin nylon or teflon shim to shush it down a little.   

I will find some shims for that reel. It shouldn’t have any noticeable play between the rotor and body of the reel. It may have had shims at one time. All of them did but they get worked on so much they get lost.

The one Mitchell 300 I did the other day had 3 shims on the pinion gear. 3 more inside the reel. Most of the time there are none in the reel after its been apart so many times over the years.

I'm thinking there are two possible points where a shim could be placed to reduce movement between the rotor and body ---the first would be to put a wide shim around the base of the pinion where it's built into the rotor; the second would be a smaller shim around the base of the shaft tube that slides from the body up through the pinion and rotor.  Any thoughts on which would be the better spot for a shim?

Keith, thanks for your offer!

[Midway Tommy]

I start with one over the pinion on the back of the rotor.

Fred mentioned this earlier but I'll bring it up again. Have you removed the spool spindle to see if it is fitting correctly into the spool? On the 314 & 315 there should be no washer between the spool and spindle or on the back of the spindle between the spindle and the main shaft.

[wfjord]

.
Tommy,
there is a thin red  hard drag washer inside the spool at the base of the spindle:






Edit (again):

Here's shot of the wear on the bail stop. It does show some paint wear, but probably not a mm deep and only on the corner.  I don't know if that affects the problem or not, but shimming the bail stop should at least correct the angle of the bail Steve pointed out.

[Midway Tommy]

.
Tommy,
there is a thin red  hard drag washer inside the spool at the base of the spindle:

Therein lies at least part of your line lay problem, although you may still need a thin shim between the rotor and body to take up some slack. On the deep (9108) spools such as yours the red fiber washer goes between the break spring and the spool. The shallow (9107)  spools don't have that fiber washer at all. If you look closely at the schematic you can see the difference in spool depths and that one has a washer and the other one doesn't. Put the drag washer in the right location and see how much difference that makes for you.  

[wfjord]

We might be turning a corner here...

I see the differences in the two spools on the schematic and now have the drag washer in its proper place.
I think a thin shim between the rotor & body would be helpful, too.

***In studying the schematic, I think I see the cause of the problem with the gears. The schematic shows a crosswind cam (part 81133)---There is not one of those in my reel.

I'm not clear on where that part fits in --the schematic has it set aside from the other gears.

[foakes]

The crosswind cam is only if you want to change the operation of your reel from planamatic gearing (bobbing up and down at varying intervals) to the standard crosswind gearing like on the 304.

That is why your reel does not have this part -- it is the rarer, upgraded 314.

When you get your parts figured out -- just let me know so I can send them out.

At this point, I would suggest a new bail, bail trip, a couple of bail bearing screws, a new bail spring, and a few assorted shims.  This is more than you need -- but will bring it back to new operation both cosmetically and functionally.

Best,

Fred

[wfjord]

It's nice to know the 314 is a rarer upgraded model.  Once I get it back into working order it'll have a permanent place in my arsenal with the primary purpose of getting fished.

I'm going to go into it again and try resetting the gears a few more times. It's bugging me that at a certain point the gear cycle the spool and main shaft freely slipped to a lower position simply by my pressing the top of the spool. That only started after the last gear reset.  I was wondering if Garcia Mitchell ever addressed the issue of a "recommended" position for the planet and satellite gears to be arranged in when reassembling this reel?

Fred, I'll trust your judgment in regards to the parts you suggested and at what point you want to send them.  That is very generous of you.

I'll be out of town and away from a computer for most of this weekend.

I'm appreciating all you guys for your expertise, help and encouragement with this.

[wfjord]

I've been working with the gears, resetting them a few more times and finally got them set today so the bobbing action of the spool seems much better and more evenly distributed from high to low.

I don't know if or how this might affect anything, but I measured at least a millimeter of up and down play in the main shaft, with or without the spool on, while holding the rotor stationary. Is that something that matters?


So, as it currently stands there is approximately a millimeter of up and down play in the rotor to body connection that needs to be shimmed at the base of the pinion.

Fred, you suggested a new bail, bail trip, a couple of bail bearing screws, a new bail spring, and a few assorted shims.

As far as I can see I think I'm ready to get this reel fixed up.

[Midway Tommy]

I don't know if or how this might affect anything, but I measured at least a millimeter of up and down play in the main shaft, with or without the spool on, while holding the rotor stationary. Is that something that matters?

That depends on the line lay on the spool and whether or not you can live with how it stacks. It is enough to warrant a thin shim, though, if the line doesn't lay correctly and you want it as close to optimum as possible.