A few questions regarding Garcia upgrades.

[CJDuncan]

I have 4 Abu Garcia reels that I am looking to upgrade.  It is easiest to assume that all 4 have never been serviced or maintained.  They are as follows:
1962  Ambassadeur 5000
1979? Ambassadeur 6000
19?? Ambassadeur 5600AB
19?? 550Plus

I have the schematics for all of these courtesy of Abu Garcia.  They schematics for everything but the 5000 are nice and clean, so doing a complete teardown should be time consuming but doable.  I have never torn anything down, but would like to be able to so that I can service my own reels.  I would also like to do the commonly suggested upgrades at the same time.  The problem I have is that there is just so much information out there that I got a bit confused.  I know that carbontex drag washers will be going in, but can anyone tell me which ones?  Should I replace the bearings with ceramic ones?  What upgrades will give me the most performance for these reels?  I have used the 5000 since I was 11, so after 21 years of service to me I feel horrible for never having gone through it.  While I am in it, is there anything I should watch out for, or would it just be best to have some far more knowledgable than myself handle that one?  Any and all suggestions are greatly appreciated.
CJ

[Ken_D]

Hi. that's lots of info for a one post answer. No biggie, just going to take a bit of time. And more than one post.

OK: the 550. Solid axle, with bb's in the side plates, or ultracast like the anti-backlash reel, with the bb's in the spool? End of post one.

[CJDuncan]

I sincerely apologize for posting too many questions.  You are right.  I should have taken the questions and topics one at a time.  According to the schematics the bb are in the spool.  In the diagram it shows part # 19843 if I am looking at it correctly.

[Ken_D]

Oh.. I was not getting in your face...it's easier to tackle the reels bit by each is all....  the bb's for the Anti-backlash, and the plus will be 4 x 10 x 4.  The carbon drag pack from smoothdrag will be the setup for any 4-5-6 sized Abu with the 3-stack array. Alan's got a tutorial on the 55C3 style reel, so you can catch lots of good hints there.   The number you posted is that for the bronze bushings. The bb's are 13472.

Just to be safe, can you post the first four numbers off the foot on the 5 plus.  The AB's not a worry.
If held backwards, some sequences of numbers can be read backwards, so to avoid this, just orient the crank side to your midriff, and the non crank side pointing away from you. I had a rodster on another forum who swore his number was correct, until I told him he was holding the reel backwards. Kinda funny now, but a bit testy at the time !!!

If you want to use Abu carbon washers, the part number will be in the link below.  

Mods include the idler gear from the the Record (open the schematic for the RN60..it's got a bb in it), a ceramic line pawl, a titanium nitride-coated line carrage, a dual bb worm and shroud from the 6600 Mag-X, aforentioned drag washers, and faster ball bearings.

Another good mod is the addition of present day 6-puck braking system, as seen here. You'll need to buy the  newer style  pinion, with 4 'engagement slots' instead of the two on the older system.  Main gears can remain the same.  Cost of these mods less the bb's will be about 60-65.00 and stamps. The bb's can be anywhere from 7.00-60.00 each, depending on which type you pick.    http://www.mikesreelrepair.com/schematics/albums/userpics/Ambassadeur_6500C3_15_00.PDF

[CJDuncan]

5000       620517
6000       89-0  89-90
5600AB   070110/21
550+      0104  04


The 600 reads upside down and right side up, so I believe these are all of the correct foot numbers.

[Ken_D]

Yuppers, the plus is an ultra cast. On the 6000: It looks to be a "transition" reel: two drag washers...one in the gear, and one under the gear,  and an ultracast spool.

The one under the gear always gets so goopy with oil and grease, it's kinda overkill to put a carbon washer there.  You can use the carbon washer from the present day Chinese iC3 7000 reel....it drops right inside the main gear. P/N  1124773. perfect thickness, and diameter.

I'll see if I can dig up some info on the older 5000....several design changes were in effect around that time.... having to do with the pinion's method of grabbing the spool, the various drag setup.

I'm guessing you have two very stiff and fairly thick drag washers on board: one in the gear, and one underneath, with a line out clicker built into the main gear. This reel probably will not benefit from carbontex or HT 100's.... the factory 'phenolic' type washers are very strong. But if it's the other version with two leather washers, or version 3 with one leather, and one phenolic,  then yes, carbon's an option. for one of the 2 washers.

[CJDuncan]

If you would like I can email you the schematics that Abu Garcia sent to me for each of these.  I don't know if that will help you figure out what to do about the 5000, but if it does just let me know.  The 5000 has a bunch more sentimental value than it does fishing vale, but If I can make it into a hot rod I would do it in a second and keep casting with it until my son is old enough to use it.

[Ken_D]

Hio....I was posting and modifying as you were adding yours. I suspect this one would be you.
You can add most of the mods as per modern reels, but the transmission is the issue. It's 3.8-1, with very little hope of getting the 4.7 ratio. They are awfully rare. Google 'supertuning', and see how you feel about doing those procedures to the solid axle style reel.  

You can buy an older 5 on the fleabag for around 35.00. To do all the mods to yours, including the weird sized ball beaings, will run you close to 100.00.  If your side plates are in decent shape, I'd buy a beater off eeb, eh? and change them out.  Then, the cosmetics will remain nice over time.  Unless your 5 is already a beater.

http://www.mikesreelrepair.com/schematics/albums/ambassadeur/Ambassadeur_5000-5000A_1969.pdf

[CJDuncan]

So are you saying to swap side plates with a newer or better version of my 5000?  The schematics from Mike's looks slightly different from the ones I got from Abu Garcia.  I'm not sure if that means I had them send me the wrong ones or if I just can't seem to read schematics properly!
If I am reading my schematics correctly the BB for the 6000, the 500+, and the AB are all the same style.  You say the same BB for the 500+ will work for the AB.  The same part number appears to be on both the AB and the 6000.  This means all 3 are interchangable?  Is this correct or am I looking at things wrong?
If the 5000 is going to be too difficult to work with compared to the others then my first idea to send it off for the work looks more and more attractive.  I would absolutely hate to ruin it.

[Ken_D]

Hi, No, I'm suggesting if you wish to preserve the reel as a display unit down the road, yet fish it, you might want to change out the side plates, saving the originals for re-put when the reel is finished fishing.

Unless your reel is already all showing much signs of heavy use, and there is no desire in preserving the cosmetics from any further wear and tear.

Abu/Purefishing has most of their drawings online.  http://www.abugarcia.com/support/reel-schematics
Nutter Reel, Southwestern Parts, Mike's, all have comprehensive collections too. Alan has a list of sites w/drawings.

All round 4-5-6 ultracast reels use the same size bushing/bearing: 4 x 10 x 4 in millimeters.

Also: Thanks to the fine crew at SOL, for this post, on the older Abu. your 5000 should be much the same, minus the line out alarm, and the capacity change.  http://www.stripersonline.com/forum/thread/720350/abu-6000c-rebuild#post_6999967

[CJDuncan]

I don't believe my 5000 will ever be a display unit.  As far as I can tell it has been fished constantly since it was first purchased, and I know that for the last 21 years it has been my primary reel, so I see no reason to worry about the exterior.  The internals, on the other hand...
So since all 4-5-6 use the same bearings would it be best to just buy a 10 pack of BB and have 2 left over after installing 2 in each reel?  Also, does this mean I should just order 12 drag washers from Carbontex?

[Ken_D]

The ball brgs in your reels at present ought to be OK, once flushed and re-lubed*, so you do have the option of changing them out if you want, plus add some, where the bushings currently reside. Buying a lot of 10 would save you a bit of cash.

Once you go to smoothdrag.com's page, you'll be able to spot the washers you want.
Not sure where you are getting the 12 from. I'm seeing 2 sets of 4, (AB/+) one set of 2 (6), and none for the 5000.

*there are several ways to get this done. Some folks advocate lighter fluid, some "brake-kleen", others acetone.
I tend to follow industry's lead when possible. They use ether, as it leaves no residue. Ether is very hazardous, and could hurt, if some basic measures are ignored. No sparks, flames, etc.  the most convenient form of ether at the consumer level is diesel starting fluid.

I place the bb's on the frame post, and blast with a short duration burst, spin the bb, and do it again on the other side.  No sense to blast away long, and waste product. I then give the bb a flick, and listen for the rattle, and note the time it spins for. If still slow, I repeat, or throw the bb away.

[CJDuncan]

For some reason I had in my head that each reel had 3 washers each!  I have no idea where I picked up the idea at, but it was rattling around in my head.  I think buying 10 would be best, because I really have no idea if these were ever seviced.  I am fairly certain that none of them have been.
On the 5000, according to the schematic you posted earlier part nos. 3902 and 3902 are both drag washers.  Would these benefit from being replaced with the carbontex, or is there something different about these that precludes them from being swapped.  Also, which bushings would be best to replace on all others?  I think I will go to that website and poke around for better schematics than the ones that I have.

[Ken_D]

Hio....the 5000's drag options are in a post in this thread, up a few, as regards factory and carbon optons. 

I think we are getting into info overload here....let's see if we can sort out this bushing thing.  Your 5000 Old has 2 bronze businings for the spool's axle, housed in the side plates. These are an odd ID size, as indicated in a post above, with bearing options, from Boca. 

The other 3 reels are ultracast style, with bushings/bearings in the spool. The AB reel is supposed to have 2 bb's in the spool. If the reels is used, someone may have switched them out for bushings. The 6000 may have 2 bushings, or 2 bb's in the spool. Same with the 550 plus.

I gave you the part nos for the bushings and the bearings in a post above. They are moot, actually, once you know the boundary dimensions, which are 4 x 10 x 4 in millimeters.

You are not obligated to change out the bushings for bearings, unless you wish to, so your question as to which ones to change out is your choice.

[Pro Reel]

The first thing I would do is clean the reels. The reels you have are some of the easiest reels to service that have ever been built. As you take the reels apart, take a few pictures. Lift the crank side cover off and take a picture of everything there before going any further. As you take parts off, lay them in order with each part laying up, in the direction it came off. Then take a picture of those parts. Your old bearings might be relativly clean, or they might be covered in grease. Clean them on the outside with a brush and a good solvent. Any lighter fluid, acetone, naphtha, MEK, brake cleaner, carb cleaner etc. etc. will work to clean steel bearings and metal parts. The trick is to keep at it until it's actually clean. Just soaking and swishing will make them look clean, but they won't be clean. The inside is full of hard to reach tight spots that can only be cleaned by agitation or movment. Start by cleaning any crud off the outside. Then soak them overnight in solvent, then use brake or carb clean or ether to blow solvent through the gaps. Dry with dry compressed air. The cans of air for cleaning keyboards works, if you don't have a compresser. If you do have a compresser, use a paint gun air dryer bulb at the blowgun to stop any water from going into the bearing. Now, the best way to clean a bearing is to remove the sides. On some bearings that's easy and on some it's not. Alan has a good article on bearings here that you can read and see how to do that. The easiest way to clean bearings and get them super clean very fast is to use an ultrasonic cleaning tank. All you need is a small jewelry cleaner to do that. Get a glass jar like a small baby food jar or lab vial. Put the bearings in the jar, fill the jar halfway with solvent and set the jar in the US tank with water at the same level as the solvent in the jar. Run the US cleaner for a quick cycle and then dump the solvent and repeat. Keep doing that until the solvent stays gin clear. That's usually just a few times. Now dry them and add a drop of oil. Put your reels back together with the stock parts and see if you even still think they need any upgrades other than drags. The stock drags will need replaced to get a good drag system.