Spin rod Guides Question

[oldmanjoe]

    You have me thinking ,  6 foot to the first guide .     Is that from the reel face or the butt ? 

[gstours]

Thanks to all for sharing your thoughts and information.  I think we are all here to help,  and or learn.
   I too am ( is, was) skeptical about a lot of claims in manufacturing and retailers pushing their products.
(Blowing their horns) butt regardless of this fact the best products usually come from experimental ideas and testing.  This is why this forum is so great 😀.....
   I,m not trying to wring two more feet out of a setup,  just wanna try to improve some of the stuff if already got and be knowledgeable about the next purchase.   
  I see a lot of work on spin rod guides has already been done.  Generally I would have shied away for a program or table telling you what to do as far as guide placement and sizes.   I prefer to see the theory and application and diy,  but sometimes there is a short cut to success.
   I know now that wind knots and line slap is to be avoided, proper size and types of choking guides can quickly tame the line, and the transition to the small running guides keep the strength in the blank and reduce overall weight.   When I started this post I felt like the reel spool angle was/is somewhat important but may not compare it to the other things going on?

[gstours]

Some spin reels I could easily get my hands on for measuring spool angle fixed to the reelseat.

[gstours]

Notice the difference in a few reels,  this is not a guide position thing here as the rod is a two piece and it doesn't seem like some reels are ideal for some rods?  Just wondering.
   All measurements were taken at 36 inches from the center of the reel stand post.
What is it I've discovered?   It seems like the reels are a good start point.

[gstours]

Next the line has to change direction and immediately lose the coils,  the 2-3 first set of choke guides are the next hurdle for the line taming guides.   It seems like the best way to get this done is like what Jeri and Fuji have worked on ?💡   I,m glad you all are helping us help our self's.🤦‍♀️
   Thanks to all equally for sharing your thoughts.   

[Jeri]

    You have me thinking ,  6 foot to the first guide .     Is that from the reel face or the butt ? 

On a 14' long surf rod, with the reel just 8" up from the butt, and controlled by the left hand - the first guide is 72" from the reel stem.


Radical, but it works a dream. On a couple of specific rods for deliberate competition anglers looking for absolute maximum distance, we pushed it up to 6'-4", and still we didn't get any choking or line slap.

[Jeri]

Notice the difference in a few reels,  this is not a guide position thing here as the rod is a two piece and it doesn't seem like some reels are ideal for some rods?  Just wondering.
   All measurements were taken at 36 inches from the center of the reel stand post.
What is it I've discovered?   It seems like the reels are a good start point.

You have perhaps gone down a 'pseudo science rabbit hole'??

We build our standard range of long surf rods with just about every reel in mind - totally ignoring the 'reel spine angle'. In our style, the rod works for any, absolutely any reel, from standard to big spool Euro casting reels, to under size reels and even all the new designs of Shimanos, with zero offset (spool shafts parallel to the blank). We have been  using this style of design for over 5 years now, pretty much without change, and never had a client come in with a wind knot or line slap problem.


Personally, I don't think it makes a huge difference to overall performance, and certainly not dictatorial to where the first guide should be placed.

[Jeri]

Next the line has to change direction and immediately lose the coils,  the 2-3 first set of choke guides are the next hurdle for the line taming guides.   It seems like the best way to get this done is like what Jeri and Fuji have worked on ?💡   I,m glad you all are helping us help our self's.🤦‍♀️
   Thanks to all equally for sharing your thoughts.   

This whole concept of thinking goes way back to 1966, when the then president of Fuji, presented the Omura Theory, which still today challenges traditional thinking and wisdom. More recently, in the 1990's when braid on surf rods was first rearing its ugly head, and the problems associated with casting it - Fuji developed the ultimate solution - Low Riders. However, because conceptually they challenged people's thinking too far, and 'could not possibly be right', it was largely ignored by the English speaking world - you cannot possibly get a size 20 guide to work as the first guide, when people were busy looking for guides bigger than 70mm diameter for the same situation.

Believe me, it works exceptionally well, and is an excellent engineering solution to a problem, rather than K series guides, which are just ignoring the initial problem and introducing a 'correction mechanism'. Rather fix the core problem and stop it happening, than fix the problem as it occurs.

Just my thoughts.

[happyhooker]

   I'm not trying to be a finatic,  just trying to understand the basic things no body would ever tell you when you go to buy a rod or reel.   In general you're going to get a average set up.  Sometimes less. 
   I've built a few rods and used my best advice,  technology has improved,  I,m an antique.
   I would like to see other people here and any where else make educated choices,  as the cost of equipment escalation and spare time for fishing seems to diminish.   I just wanna be a kid 🧒 again.

I'm with you just about all the way--maybe we're long lost twins.  Not an antique; maybe "classic" or "old school".  Wanting to be a kid again ain't all bad.  When I was younger, I had no fishing mentors, and in my working years, the time & money for fishing just never seemed to be there.  Now, I at least have the time & I'm trying to make the most of it.  I enjoying using the gear I would have bought 30-40 years ago if I'd had the $$ and knew what I was doing.  All the stuff I only thought about wanting to do years ago, well, now I'm doing it & making up for lost time.

Frank

[happyhooker]

Jeri, really appreciate your stories/knowledge.  I don't do any surf fishing, but have preliminarily set up some shorter rods with the stripper guide pretty far out from the reel.  It just looks goofy and I've chickened out before actually going ahead with the build.  Old habits die hard--a bit of a sin, I guess--but your professional comments and advice are certainly prodding me into expanding my horizons.

Frank

[gstours]

Thanks again for sharing your thoughts.   I can say that I've never heard of anything mentioned about the reels spool axis ever before.  Not in any literature or product promoting or any where.  It seemed to me it would be ideal to start the line coils aim for the center of the first guide.    And it does seem like you will lose considerable rod action and sensitivity if there are no guides in the first half of a 8+ foot rod.
   I tried loading the rods as I removed the first two guides and the action was terrible.  It never casted any better.   Whf I thought.   I'm still learning.  And trying stuff.   But this is good.
   By the way I'm using 20 spider wire.   Mono would be worse.   
       Are the low rider guides used only in the choking from the spool,  or and small 6 mm guides to the tip.
Just wondering? 

[gstours]

Jeri I remember seeing some of your earlier posts and remembered that you mentioned the low rider series of guides and never thought it would work for other than long surf rods.
   I'm using 8 and 9 foot rods mostly.  I like the work you have done and sharing it is very nice of you.
As a possible solution to my rod guide testing I was thinking of trying the k series Fuji set of guides as shown below.  What is your opinion.  It would be a set.  Seems easy enough but is this better than what I've been doing?  Yes,  from what I've heard from all of you so far.

[Jeri]

Thanks again for sharing your thoughts.   I can say that I've never heard of anything mentioned about the reels spool axis ever before.  Not in any literature or product promoting or any where.  It seemed to me it would be ideal to start the line coils aim for the center of the first guide.    And it does seem like you will lose considerable rod action and sensitivity if there are no guides in the first half of a 8+ foot rod.
   I tried loading the rods as I removed the first two guides and the action was terrible.  It never casted any better.   Whf I thought.   I'm still learning.  And trying stuff.   But this is good.
   By the way I'm using 20 spider wire.   Mono would be worse.   
       Are the low rider guides used only in the choking from the spool,  or and small 6 mm guides to the tip.
Just wondering? 

Your first sentances are following the line of 'pseudo science BS' that the folks wish to promote. A simple challenge to their concept of angled 'flow of the cone of line', is trashed by the fact that Shimano make a lot of high end and distance casting reels with 'zero offset', so using the angled cone idea, it would never be possible to build a good rod for a Shimano reel, because it would be impossible to put guides at the 'choke point' - because the spool shaft is parallel to the rod............... hope that makes sense.

Just taking a few guides off, is never going to be the solution. For testing new ideas, we just tape the guides on the clean blank in the prescribed places, then do a few test casts; if it works out fine, then we step up and whip the guides on permanently.


Low Riders would be infinitely too heavy for your application, except to be used as the choke guides, say the first couple, but better still would be the newer deliberately designed KL-H guides. These are single foot, so seriously lighter, and then when you get down to the running guide elements, single foot kt guides in very small sizes will lighten the whole 'ring load/weight' at the upper end of the rod, and this is where I believe the gains in power and action come from. By placing lower weight guides, with less footprint on the blank, than traditional idea, the blank is less restricted. People talk about 'finding power', rather than the power was always there in the design of the blank, but subdued because of all the two leg guides folks built on the tops of the rods.

Hope that helps.

[Jeri]

Jeri I remember seeing some of your earlier posts and remembered that you mentioned the low rider series of guides and never thought it would work for other than long surf rods.
   I'm using 8 and 9 foot rods mostly.  I like the work you have done and sharing it is very nice of you.
As a possible solution to my rod guide testing I was thinking of trying the k series Fuji set of guides as shown below.  What is your opinion.  It would be a set.  Seems easy enough but is this better than what I've been doing?  Yes,  from what I've heard from all of you so far.

For you application, with 20lb braid, I would suggest that a starting point might be one of the kits from Mudhole, that Fuji have put together.

www.mudhole.com/Fuji-KL-H-Spinning-Rod-Guide-Kits?quantity=1&custcol_guide_frame=298&custcol21=120

Try that link, either a set that starts with a size 20 or 25 to suit the weight of line and length of rod that you are using. It will give you a good starting point to see the effect, and get a handle on exactly what is happening. Then you can adjust accordingly. I would not suggest that you go down the route of heavier Low Riders, or even a combination of Low Riders and KT guides - too heavy for your relatively light and short application.

Hope that helps.

[Jeri]

Jeri, really appreciate your stories/knowledge.  I don't do any surf fishing, but have preliminarily set up some shorter rods with the stripper guide pretty far out from the reel.  It just looks goofy and I've chickened out before actually going ahead with the build.  Old habits die hard--a bit of a sin, I guess--but your professional comments and advice are certainly prodding me into expanding my horizons.

Frank

Don't be concerned that the concept only works in surf fishing rod design - it was initially deliberately designed for short spinning rods, we had to 'stretch' the concept to see if it would work with our very long rods, and it does.

The ''goofy look', is just because it challenges the 'conventions' that you have been lead to believe are right.  Look how 'goofy' Acid Wrapped rods look, but they work, even in a surf fishing design - but still none of the mainstream manufacturers are producing rods that follow that concept.


I would rather work with 'good science' and see the performance benefits, than listen to 'conventional marketed rubbish' and suffer lower performance.

We had a client come to us on the beach after a competition, he knew exactly what he wanted, and just to help, I suggested that he try one of my personal comparable prototypes. He categorically told me those very small guides on the end would not work - I said OK, by just try it............. he did, he really laid into the cast, hoping to prove me wrong, and away went the sinker........... he had to look down at the reel to make sure that the line was still connected to the sinker. He came back, and said - 'That's what I want on my new rod!!!' We built the rod, and recently at the prize giving after an International, which he won, he came and thanked me personally, because with 'my rod' he had consistently out cast all the fellow anglers, and won in his section.

Ignore what other people think, if it works they will come round to your way of thinking, by gravity!!!!!!!!!!!