Mitchell 300 shims

[Guldhamstern]

Happy new year!

A newly aquired Mitchell 300 (SN1291934) 5th version, was getting a cleaning and lubrication yesterday.
Upon reassebly it i noticed two or three things.

Firstly i found a lot of grease:


Then some shimmy things:
1, 81 035 was missing.
2, There was two different shims that would fit the pinion gear (81047) to tell the truth one of them just fell out and i found it on the floor.


3, When put together the rotating head had som play, about 0,5 - 1 mm, and the baffle plate is scraping. No shim are missing from what i can read from the schematic. Can i add shim made of other material? I measured the shim 81012 to 8x12x015 mm, but found some steel shims 8x14x (0,1 and 0,2) mm. Would that be ok?
And i read somewhere that some play would be ok...

Hope someone can shim in here...

[happyhooker]

Ah, shimming a Mitchell 300--what fun.  Well, the shimming ain't fun, but when you get it done and the reel spins like it should, that's fun.

Keep in mind: the shims are only used when needed to adjust clearances.  There might be one shim in all spots; one in a couple and two in another; or two in one spot and none anywhere else.  If you move the rotor out with a shim, that will move the rotor gear (rotating head gear) further away from the pinion gear, so you may need to add a shim under the pinon gear too.  A lot of it is trial and error.

Frank

[Gfish]

Don't remember exactly what the "baffle plate" is, though it sounds like something from a MG. Don't really understand that chart you posted( sorry, but for me, someone's gotta label everything).
But like Frank said, prepare to spend lotsa trial n' error time playin with the shims. Don't see any reason why the shims can't be a non-copper metal. Midway Tommy & Foaks-Fred are 2 of the spinner masters here amongst others, I can think of that may have more answers.

[Midway Tommy]

Frank pretty much hit the nail directly on the head. Mitchells can be a pain in the rear sometimes if you want them perfect. That's why they have so many different shim thicknesses. Trial & error, & then adjust is the procedure on those things. Personally, I'm not that finicky on Mitchells as long as they work smooth and correctly. Original shims are bronze. SS or brass will also work. So will copper but copper is a little soft & wears out quicker than the others. SS can wear other parts faster, too.

[Guldhamstern]

Don't remember exactly what the "baffle plate" is, though it sounds like something from a MG. Don't really understand that chart you posted( sorry, but for me, someone's gotta label everything).
But like Frank said, prepare to spend lotsa trial n' error time playin with the shims. Don't see any reason why the shims can't be a non-copper metal. Midway Tommy & Foaks-Fred are 2 of the spinner masters here amongst others, I can think of that may have more answers.

I use the word "baffle plate" since ive heard it in a youtube video, it's the plate between the washer and the hex. I am not so familar with either english or the mechanical terms.
In the shart i wanted to show the dimensions of the two shims i think i maybe mixed up.

So it seems i just order a bunch of ss shims for  trial and error.


But still, would it be preferable to have some play between the rotor head and the main body?

[happyhooker]

Not sure why Mitchell decided on the term "baffle plate".  It is, indeed, a plate of sorts, with some cutouts and raised areas that serve to trip the bail closed as the reel is cranked. Occasionally, you get rid of a scraping by an ever so slight and extremely judicious bending of the raised tang on the plate that trips the bail return.  The shim process is the official and probably best way to get the parts properly in relation to one another, though.  Yet, amateurs may have tried correcting something in the past (with 30-50 yr. old equipment, not unexpected) by "bending", so a "reverse bending" may get thing back to where they should have been.

Should there be some clearance between the rotor and main body?  Sure, "some".  Two gears never work right when there is no clearance between them.  When gears are tight, you'll know it and things will be hard to turn.  Too much clearance, and wear will occur faster on the gears and there may even be a skipping (bad).  I suspect the 1 mm figure you mentioned earlier is probably a bit too much clearance.  Don't know if there is an official figure in thousandths, or....  My rule if thumb is the slightest clearance that will allow the reel to crank easily, without noises and without any binding.

Frank

[foakes]

It is difficult (nearly impossible) to get the gears on a egg-bodied Mitchell (300, 400 series, etc.) completely smooth and noiseless.  

This is due to the nature of the soft alloy gear material wear — after a few decades of use.

And even for experts, this is true.

A proper cleaning and evacuation of all debris, grease, and crud — will oftentimes result in a noisier reel!

Shimming is the recommended fix.

An assortment of perhaps 3 sizes of shims is all that is required — .10, .15, or .20 thickness.

Typically, there are shims on the rotor pinion where it attaches to the body — this is likely the main one to be concerned with.  1 to 3 shims will normally get it as good as possible.  Proper modern lubes such as TSI321, CorrosionX, or thinned down with oil reel grease — will do the job.

The other shims on some of the other gears usually do not fail.

And the Baffle Plate shim is typically fine — or sometimes should be replaced.

But if you approach the issues after cleaning and during reassembly with just focusing on the shims that connect between the rotor and body (1-2, or 3) — 90% of the issue will go away.

The only gear that takes multiple shims — is this one.  So I try to not make it any more complicated than it needs to be.

As to the Baffle Plate (likely a French engineering technical term for shielding, protecting, or hiding the bail trip mechanisms so they don't become tangled or distorted when replacing the spool) — the trip mechanism can be bent slightly after a complete service to remove any unwanted contact with the underneath mechanism.

Best,

Fred

[Gfish]

Baffel plate. Makes sense now that I'm not thinkin bout the gear box. Another fun thing to play with. From what I remember shim-adjusting on a 300 means when you move one thing subtracting or adding a shim, something else may also have to be adjusted.
"Guldhamstern", is that your real name? Sounds a bit like a Scandinavian version of that Shakespeare/Hamlet character:" Gildenstern."

[Dominick]

Guldamstern, I am not criticizing your English but I'm sure you are baffled by the baffle to be used to baffle the gear.  I know I am baffled by the confusing description.  Guldamstern just ignore me.     Dominick

[Midway Tommy]

For those that are BAFFLED.  From treidm's great 2012 3-0-0 tutorial. Check it out, a great disassembly/reassembly tutorial! Shimming is discussed. 

Baffle Plate.....top left corner.


Rotor ready for Baffle Plate.


Baffle Plate installed.

[wfjord]

So that's the baffle plate. I was thinking of something in the gear box, too.

I remember early on having a problem with that on the very first Mitchell I rebuilt.  I'd reassembled it wrong and sort of recall that plate seemed to be jamming on the bail release mechanism beneath it. I had some washers and nut in wrong places.

[festus]

The Mitchell 300 was the first reel after I learned to fully service after I joined this site.  Probably have a dozen or so of them but don't really have any plans on using them soon. I too was baffled by the baffle plate and shims, particularly getting the bail trip  mechanism to work correctly.  BTW, there is also a good tutorial on YouTube.  

[Guldhamstern]

Wow, lot's of information!
I did a little bending work to the baffle plate, that resulted in a not so baffling silence.
And just added some shims 0,05 under the baffle plate to get rid of some of the play.
When adding shims (0,1) under the rotor head, it immediatly lost all it's smotheness.

Fred: I'm sure an expert could get it smoother, but i'm satisfied with "good enough".
Although i  guess a quiet and smooth reel, would wear slower and last longer?

Guldamstern, I am not criticizing your English but I'm sure you are baffled by the baffle to be used to baffle the gear.  I know I am baffled by the confusing description.  Guldamstern just ignore me.     Dominick

I can assure you, you are being ignored, Dominick =)

Baffel plate. Makes sense now that I'm not thinkin bout the gear box. Another fun thing to play with. From what I remember shim-adjusting on a 300 means when you move one thing subtracting or adding a shim, something else may also have to be adjusted.
"Guldhamstern", is that your real name? Sounds a bit like a Scandinavian version of that Shakespeare/Hamlet character:" Gildenstern."

It's just some silly alias from my pubertal phase and since my flow of imagination went dry in the same phase, i'm stuck with that name. And now I'm to silly to use my real name. But it's very much the same as an golden/syrian hamster (Mesocricetus auratus).

[foakes]

Fred: I'm sure an expert could get it smoother, but i'm satisfied with "good enough".
Although I guess a quiet and smooth reel, would wear slower and last longer?

Good enough, is perfect...

We need to remember that this reel has already seen decades of use — is now as good or better than when new — and will likely outlast you and your kids.

The one thing to remember on Mitchell's — is to keep a nice, even coat of light grease on the gears.  Modern lubes are so much better than ever before.

Good work, Sir!

Best,

Fred

[Gfish]

In the late 70's I bought a 300C( roller bearing model)that was never quiet, major gear lash. Yeah, it was on sale and that was the reason why. I put some serious miles on that reel and it always was noisy, but worked great. Still got it.