alan tani @ alantani.com fishing reel repair rebuild tutorial Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro
Reel Repair by Alan Tani
September 15, 2019, 05:05:40 AM *
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Author Topic: Some help is needed in the fg- hard flouro  (Read 3761 times)
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Three se7ens
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« Reply #90 on: September 08, 2019, 03:05:35 PM »

I don't have much of a problem tying an FG that holds under load.   But I have not yet been able to tie one where I cannot work the braid over the mono tag, unless I leave a longer tag.  It won't come loose right away, but if I scrape around with my fingernail, shake the knot around, etc., I can pull the braid over the tag after a few minutes.

I see that some FG tyers melt a knob on the end of the mono for just this reason.

Also,  I personally will not rely on glue to make a knot work.  Hard glues create a hinge point, and CA glue does not bond well to polyethyline (spectra) in addition to losing strength when exposed to water.  Not arguing with other folks that find success with glue on knots, but it is not something that I can trust.

I will keep trying, but for now it is the Pena knot.  Not as strong as the FG, but I trust it.  The Pena casts through the guides just fine for me.  It  is sometimes a bit bumpy winding in, but not much worse than an FG with a long tag.

-J

Just dont cut your tag end so short on the leader.  Ill leave 1/8" on the leader past the FG. 
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oc1
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« Reply #91 on: September 08, 2019, 10:21:27 PM »

When you scratch at it with your finger nail you are peeling the half hitches off one at a time.  When all the half hitches have been slipped off or loosened then the wraps will start to unravel.

You guys can say what you want about the melted glob on the tip of the floro tag, but it is foolproof and gives you a definitive stop for the half hitches.  You will not be able to scratch them off.  The glob does not have to be a larger diameter than the outside of a half hitch so it need not stick out at all. 

After tying the half hitches right up to the shoulder of the glob, then drop down and tie a few more half hitches or a risotto around the main line.  That will make a ramp of sorts to smooth out the transition from main line to knot.

-steve
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boon
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« Reply #92 on: September 09, 2019, 01:35:09 PM »

If you pull the knot hard before clipping the mono tag end, to really bed the wraps in, then it shouldn't be an issue. Probably helps to have the first half-hitch after the wraps cinched down good and tight too, but that first half hitch should not be able to move up the tag - it is what protects the wraps, the rest of the hitches on the mono are just there to give you a little bit of "padding" in case the whole knot slips under extreme load, and the hitches/rizutto on the braid is just to create a smooth transition. My 2c anyway.
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jurelometer
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« Reply #93 on: September 09, 2019, 06:24:15 PM »

If you pull the knot hard before clipping the mono tag end, to really bed the wraps in, then it shouldn't be an issue. Probably helps to have the first half-hitch after the wraps cinched down good and tight too, but that first half hitch should not be able to move up the tag - it is what protects the wraps, the rest of the hitches on the mono are just there to give you a little bit of "padding" in case the whole knot slips under extreme load, and the hitches/rizutto on the braid is just to create a smooth transition. My 2c anyway.

Hi Boon,

If all that is holding the FG knot together is that first half hitch around a hard cylinder (the mono), then we are dealing with a pretty sketchy knot.   

I think that I can undo the half hitches because I use larger diameter, hard fluoro for my leader.   If there is any room to work two wraps a tiny bit closer together, I can eventually work some slack up to the end of the knot and loosen first the half hitch.  It does not matter how tight I make the hitch or the wraps.  I would bet that with a leader that is of smaller diameter and softer, the leader is deformed enough that the wraps cannot be manipulated (but I suspect that the mono has been compromised a bit). 

The problem that I have with the FG, is that there is not much of a knot there.  It is a set of compression wraps that are locked in place by a couple of half hitches around a cylinder.  Most improperly tied knots are a bit weaker, but still functional.  At some point, my imperfect FG knot will quickly degrade from 100% strength to zero.  It will probably start unwinding on a cast.

 I wonder how many FG ties in the real world are the same as mine, but folks don't notice.   Some of the how-to videos have some pretty big gaps in the wraps, and many trim the mono tag very close.  Folks using glue to reinforce the hitches is another sign.

I think the answer for me is to leave a bit longer mono tag (per Adam),  or melt a knob (per Steve).  I need the hard leader for my style of fishing.  If I find a technique that I can establish some faith in, I will report back.

-J.
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« Reply #94 on: September 09, 2019, 07:51:00 PM »

My philosophy has always been - if I use the toggles (tensioners) and put full pressure on the completed knot, and there is no slippage or degradation, then all is well.  But I mean REALLY putting some stress on the knot.  You can't be bashful (depending on line test) I always figure if a knot is going to fail, you want it to fail now, not when there is a fish on the other end!
As far as adhesives (I use them) my approach is that they have nothing to do with the intrinsic strength of the knot - I look at like an M&M Candy - it provides that thin shell that helps to slide through the guides without beginning to fray (to preserve the knot integrity) or hangup while casting or reeling in.
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jurelometer
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« Reply #95 on: September 09, 2019, 08:45:34 PM »

My philosophy has always been - if I use the toggles (tensioners) and put full pressure on the completed knot, and there is no slippage or degradation, then all is well.  But I mean REALLY putting some stress on the knot.  You can't be bashful (depending on line test) I always figure if a knot is going to fail, you want it to fail now, not when there is a fish on the other end!
As far as adhesives (I use them) my approach is that they have nothing to do with the intrinsic strength of the knot - I look at like an M&M Candy - it provides that thin shell that helps to slide through the guides without beginning to fray (to preserve the knot integrity) or hangup while casting or reeling in.

Agree, but the problem with the FG is that an imperfect tie can be  near 100% when tied/tested, but will unravel over time from casting.   And as noted in my previous post, cranking down on the knot is not always enough.  It is an unforgiving knot IMHO.

A good thread...  I am learning some new stuff!
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boon
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« Reply #96 on: September 09, 2019, 10:53:42 PM »

You are correct in that it is very unforgiving of any flaw in how it is tied, and as you say there are other knots that will hold well - especially when we consider that many anglers these days, with braid, are fishing lines that are way way beyond the ability of their equipment to apply enough force to break them directly.

For clarity re. the half hitch, my personal belief is that it's important for stopping things sliding down the leader when the knot is unloaded. All of these "finger trap" style knots bite harder under load, and as long as the wraps have a little bit of room before the tag and the knot has been loaded properly before trimming the tag end then all should be fine. The half hitch/es are to stop the wraps backing off when the lines are not under load. It's just like splicing into hollowcore - the "serve" doesn't actually do anything to hold the leader when it's under load, it's there to prevent the leader sliding out of the hollow when the lines are not loaded.

I fish a couple of outfits where the reel is capable of drag output that will get close to breaking the mainline, so I like to have high-percentage knots. Practice makes perfect, etc etc.
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Three se7ens
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« Reply #97 on: September 10, 2019, 05:44:05 PM »

This knot is very unforgiving, it takes a bit of knowledge, skill, and practice to regularly get right.  But once you get it, nothing else compares. 

A trick I have learned is to do your crossing wraps, then a single half hitch.  They you really cinch it down, alternating between main line/main tag end, and main line and leader.  Go back and forth a few times until you get the color change in the braid for the full length of the knot.  I leave the leader tag end 4-6" long at this point, so if it slips any before locking down, I wont run the knot.  Only once the crossing wraps are fully tight should you complete the rest of the half hitches.  And I pull those tight every 2-3 half hitches as well.  This reliably gets me a tight and no-slip knot. 

You *HAVE* to use some kind of bar to pull the line tight.  Braid will cut your fingers before you get this knot properly tightened.  I use 3/8" stainless bars about 4" long, covered in heat shrink tubing. 
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Three se7ens
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« Reply #98 on: September 10, 2019, 05:46:45 PM »

Ive been thinking about doing a video on how I tie the FG.  Anyone interested in seeing it?  Just for fun, I may do it on the water in my kayak.
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jurelometer
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« Reply #99 on: September 10, 2019, 06:38:08 PM »

Ive been thinking about doing a video on how I tie the FG.  Anyone interested in seeing it?  Just for fun, I may do it on the water in my kayak.

I'd like to see it.   

Once on the kayak and then for the highest fun factor, you need to tie one underwater Smiley

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