Anyone have any idea how to remove a pinion nut?

[LLCC]

Hi everybody,

It's been a while since I last checked in here. I hope everyone is doing good!

I need the collective wisdom of you folks here. I took apart a spinning reel today and I quickly realised why I never wanted to take them apart! Long story short, I was putting the reel back together and things were going a bit too well. I got complacent and instead of checking the schematic as I assemble this reel, I just assumed that all the parts that was on the table was laid out in order of assembly.

Wrong! I went and screwed on the pinion nut to the pinion before  fitting on the rotor. I realised my error before I tightened the nut with a spanner, but even with a hand tight nut, it is already giving me a big problem removing it. Each time I turn it to loosen, I'd just loosen the reel handle instead, since the handle is a screw in type. And with the pinion nut screwed on, I cannot remove the side plate to get a hold of the main gear...

Any ideas?

[foakes]

If there is room (should be without the rotor attached) cover the jaws of a pair of small pliers, or preferably channel-locks with electrical tape.  Then use this to grab the pinion while using a wrench (spanned) to ease the nut back off.

Do not grab the pinion with so much force that the pinion gets distorted — it just needs to be held still long enough to get the nut moving back off.

Not sure what type of spinner you are working on — but this should work in some form.

Best,

Fred

[philaroman]

not the safest ideas, but may work if the nut is only hand tight:

1) let some thin, penetrating oil soak in

2) remove the handle/cap & hold the main gear w/ thumb & index -- since gear engagement is the only thing keeping the pinion still, hand-loosen VERY GENTLY or gear teeth may get deformed

3) if there's no plastic too close to the nut, freeze the reel (everything contracts) then touch the nut w/ a soldering iron BRIEFLY!  ...just long enough to warm/expand the nut a little, but before any significant heat is transferred to the pinion or any adjacent plastic

[LLCC]

If there is room (should be without the rotor attached) cover the jaws of a pair of small pliers, or preferably channel-locks with electrical tape.  Then use this to grab the pinion while using a wrench (spanned) to ease the nut back off.

Do not grab the pinion with so much force that the pinion gets distorted — it just needs to be held still long enough to get the nut moving back off.

Not sure what type of spinner you are working on — but this should work in some form.

Best,

Fred

Thanks for the reply, Fred. This reel is the '14 Stella C3000. The pinion nut covers the pinion. 

Best,

Lawrence

[LLCC]

not the safest ideas, but may work if the nut is only hand tight:

1) let some thin, penetrating oil soak in

2) remove the handle/cap & hold the main gear w/ thumb & index -- since gear engagement is the only thing keeping the pinion still, hand-loosen VERY GENTLY or gear teeth may get deformed

3) if there's no plastic too close to the nut, freeze the reel (everything contracts) then touch the nut w/ a soldering iron BRIEFLY!  ...just long enough to warm/expand the nut a little, but before any significant heat is transferred to the pinion or any adjacent plastic

Thanks for the reply, Philaroman!

The reel is a 14' Stella C3000. It's a small reel, but the frame has a flange above the main gear, preventing thumbs and fingers from effectively getting a hold of the main gear. They have also taken off the maintenance port (present on older models). If it was present, I could insert a piece of leather between the teeth to jam the reel enough to undo the nut. And this reel has no antireverse switch too, which means it can only turn clockwise, and undoing the nut is also turning clockwise.

Having taken a night to sleep over this matter, I think I'll go down to the tool shop today to get me some fine diameter Long screws which I'll thread through the main gear!s hole. I'll cut pieces of rubber and lock them against both ends of the main gear to hold the main gear still. Then hold the screw still with a vice and attempt to remove the pinion screw this way.

Best,

Lawrence

[Dominick]

Lawrence, please report back and let us know how it works out.  It sounds like a workable plan.  Dominick

[philaroman]

ugh!

you have like every characteristic of the reel working against your specific situation:

small/expensive; direct drive; no A/R control; specialized rotor nut, not easily cut/replaced...

good final plan, though

[LLCC]

Lawrence, please report back and let us know how it works out.  It sounds like a workable plan.  Dominick

Here's how it went:
First, we stacked leather washers for friction over both ends of the main drive gear and supported that by flat washers and added an Allen bolt on each side to bring pressure directly onto the gear. But because the reduction ratio from pinion to main gear is 5.3 : 1, we weren't able to succeed in loosening the nut.

Next we tried a sheet of 5mm thick rubber. Rubber had more friction, but it was too soft. Soon, the rim of the main drive gear had cut into the rubber.

Finally, we went back to leather, and cranked the pressure up while we struck the spanner with a mallet hoping the shock would help loosen the nut. We succeeded after I cranked the vise up crazy tight. But I managed to get the nut freed.

Got back home, eager to complete the assembly. First thing I did was to remove the nut and as luck will have it..., I screwed it wrongly again! But now armed with the 'special tools' at hand, I modified a G-clamp as my vise and after many tries, removed the nut again.

And the result after assembly is a foregone conclusion. With all that hitting, the soft drive train couldn't handle that and it became noticeably rougher than an old Stradic reel I had. So now, to order another set of gears, strip everything off and start again. 

[LLCC]

ugh!

you have like every characteristic of the reel working against your specific situation:

small/expensive; direct drive; no A/R control; specialized rotor nut, not easily cut/replaced...

good final plan, though

I did consider grinding off the rotor nut.. but closer inspection shows that the threads were buried way below, and so grinding it off wouldn't have helped an iota.

Another 2 things I hated of this reel - the rotor nut is a soft aluminium. It's great to save weight, but it's way soft so torquing this will show signs. Finally, removing and reinstalling the plastic rear bumper cap is another test of nerves. The screw access is from the reel foot, but there's no tube to guide the screwdriver to the screw 3 inches away. One just had to poke and feel, and then pluck up courage to turn the driver, thinking it's the right bit size etc. Once the bumper cap is removed, I was horrified to find the screw is a self tapping screw. When reinstalling, it's easy to cross thread and ruin the plastic cap. Why oh why can't they use a fine threaded screw with a brass insert to that part?

Best,

LL

[foakes]

The adventures and challenges of servicing expensive Asian spinners...

Keep us up to date!

Sounds like you are learning as well as making progress.

For those of you who may not know — this is a 3000 size (small/medium) Shimano spinner.

While it has some great engineering — the negative offset is the amount of plastics and soft metals in certain key areas — along with materials that do not take kindly to normal cleaners.

It is in the $600 range, new — so folks feel rightfully obligated to maintain them properly.

At least until Shimano decides to stop providing parts support.

Bling, good looks, and smoothness cost money.

Personally, I hate self threading soft screws going into plastic that may distort or crack.  After 2 or 3 services and disassembles — often, the plastic holes become enlarged or cross-threaded to the point of loosely-goosed.  Care must be taken, and even then — stuff happens...even when one is very experienced.

Good luck on your project!

Best,

Fred

[Midway Tommy]

Hang in there LLCC! My dad had a saying that I'll always remember and it was pretty much on target: "I seldom learned much when I did things right but I sure as hell learnt a lot when I did things wrong."   We've all been there.  

As for Fred's assessment on new spinning reel design, I have a feeling most of those weak spots are design intended so as to limit the life and usability. That's how they think they'll stay in business.........but.......... some us are "smarter than the average bear", bypass frustration and opt for "old school quality & longevity".  

[festus]

Hang in there LLCC! My dad had a saying that I'll always remember and it was pretty much on target: "I seldom learned much when I did things right but I sure as hell learnt a lot when I did things wrong."   We've all been there.  

As for Fred's assessment on new spinning reel design, I have a feeling most of those weak spots are design intended so as to limit the life and usability. That's how they think they'll stay in business.........but.......... some us are "smarter than the average bear", bypass frustration and opt for "old school quality & longevity".  

I share the same opinion as Alan Tani on brand new spinning reels.  Best not to pay over 20-25 bucks for them.

[LLCC]

The adventures and challenges of servicing expensive Asian spinners...

Keep us up to date!

Sounds like you are learning as well as making progress.

For those of you who may not know — this is a 3000 size (small/medium) Shimano spinner.

While it has some great engineering — the negative offset is the amount of plastics and soft metals in certain key areas — along with materials that do not take kindly to normal cleaners.

It is in the $600 range, new — so folks feel rightfully obligated to maintain them properly.

At least until Shimano decides to stop providing parts support.

Bling, good looks, and smoothness cost money.

Personally, I hate self threading soft screws going into plastic that may distort or crack.  After 2 or 3 services and disassembles — often, the plastic holes become enlarged or cross-threaded to the point of loosely-goosed.  Care must be taken, and even then — stuff happens...even when one is very experienced.

Good luck on your project!

Best,

Fred

The drive train is a total misnomer. Shimano calls it Hagane gears. Traditional Japanese knives have a very hard and keen edge because they are made by forge welding a hard Hagane layer for the edge with a soft Jigane layer to give the blade strength. So When I first read about Hagane Gears, I immediately thought of the hardened carbon steel core of a samurai sword.

Sadly hardened carbon steel it's not, for Shimano's gears. It's only called Hagane. In reality, the main gear is a sort of duralumin type of aluminium and the pinion is brass. This combination will surely render the smoothest possible cranking feel. But durability? Hardly.

[MarkT]

Yeah, hagane is Japanese for steel.  Shimano uses it to mean forged... forged aluminum!
FWIW, Tamahagane is the knife steel.

[boon]

As for Fred's assessment on new spinning reel design, I have a feeling most of those weak spots are design intended so as to limit the life and usability. That's how they think they'll stay in business.........but.......... some us are "smarter than the average bear", bypass frustration and opt for "old school quality & longevity".  

I share the same opinion as Alan Tani on brand new spinning reels.  Best not to pay over 20-25 bucks for them.

I think that to conflate complexity of design and assembly with deliberate obsolescence is a very, very long bow to draw. If you keep buying $25 spinners then you will, most likely and rightfully so, keep thinking they are rubbish.

Find me an overhead reel that is in the ballpark of the smoothness of a Stella. I'll wait. A Trinidad A series gets close, as does the Saltiga star drag, but the super-spinners are superb pieces of engineering.