Collecting B-Grade Spinning Reels

Started by mo65, April 20, 2019, 06:14:22 PM

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oc1

A reel that talks to you will tell you how it is feeling and whether or not it needs anything.

Wompus Cat

Quote from: oc1 on September 22, 2021, 05:07:35 AM
A reel that talks to you will tell you how it is feeling and whether or not it needs anything.

Another Plus of a noisy Reel is that it can Vibrate down the Line and wake up those Sleepy Fish !


If a Grass Hopper Carried a Shotgun then the Birds wouldn't MESS with Him

Paul Roberts

😄 Yes, this one has a lot of complaints. And it's just a youngster yet! Euthanasia may just be in order.😄

Benni3

#303
One guy on sol needed a reel,,,,, :-\ but he is a ungrateful fruit loop,,,,, :D but another member has the same reel he needs parts to fix it ,,,he used to fish with his dad with this one,,,, ;) in the mail it will go,,,,,, ;D

Donnyboat

Yes Benni, all those old Daiwa reels are very good right up to the 7000C, I like the way the bail arm closes, cheers Don.
Don, or donnyboat

Paul Roberts

#305
The Daiwa C-series should be solid "B-grade" reels, and they seem to have a following. I've never owned one but am just finishing up my next B-grade spinners to share, and they happen to be the Daiwa D-series reels. OK, this could get confusing. :D These D-series Daiwa's are high in the B-grade list in my mind, and experience; I fished one hard for a number of years. I'll be comparing them to an 80's Black Gold series reel I've also put a lot of miles on -essentially an upgraded D-series that may squeak into the low A-grade category. Curious what others think.

Paul Roberts

#306
Next up is the Daiwa D-series, a D1300 and D1600. These are quality reels, upper B-grades I'd call them. The 1300 here I bought new sometime around 1980, and it has seen a LOT of use. I fished upwards of 150 days a year then. The reel never failed me and remains tight to this day. It did however suffer one break, it lost the automatic internal bail trip function due to a screw breaking out of the cast aluminum rotor it was anchored into. The bail can be tripped manually, but fishing often requires both functions.

The 1600 I picked up recently, and it appeared to be in fine shape in the photos, showing little external wear. Upon initial inspection it was beyond stiff in action. And the internal bail trip appeared to have failed. "I bet I know what's up with this", I said. Upon tear down I found the trip mechanism simply needed lubrication. Yay! The stiffness was simply due to old grease that had dried to a hard crust, that literally had to be chipped out in places. There were 3 layers of it: factory brown, gray, and a green-blue. At least this reel was opened up a couple times, but instead of being cleaned out, more goop was simply added on top. Eventually the reel was closeted long enough for the grease to solidify, maybe even cross-react? Once cleaned out, burnished and lubed, the internals matched the clean externals.

The only other issue was with the extra spool that came with the reel. It's leaf spring —that clips the spool onto the main shaft in these push-button spools— had broken, rendering the extra spool unusable.

These D-series Daiwa's are similar in internal design to the Sigma 2200's and date from the same time period (1980's). They sport a helical hypoid gear train, a cast main gear (alloy unknown), a steel main shaft, and good supports. They have one permanently-sealed ball bearing under the rotor, and it appears to be of much better quality than the one in the Compac SL's (described above). One thing I've noticed in tearing down old spinning reels is that there are ball-bearings and then there are ball-bearings! They too could be rated. The most impressive ball bearings I pulled from old DAM Quick reels. They are tight and spin forever. These Daiwa bearings —branded Koyo— are also tight and spin quietly. The bearings I took out of the Compac SL's were unbranded and looser, requiring grease packing to tighten them up. I believe I may be describing 'A', 'B', and 'C'-grade bearings? To service these permanently sealed Koyo's I had to puncture and peel off one seal, and turn the exposed side inward when replacing, leaving the still sealed side toward the rotor. I did not feel the need to pack this better quality bearing with grease, using a viscous oil instead.

The main gear on these D-series Daiwa's is supported by nylon bushings (and a bronze ? friction shim) that don't appear to show any wear after years of use. The main shaft appears to be steel and is supported at the front end by the brass pinion, which has a rather long shaft that creates a good long bearing surface. The Compac reels, and most —if not all— other early models with a deep rotor cup, have room for only a short pinion shaft. The Daiwa has a very shallow, actually non-existent, rotor cup which allows for a long pinion shaft. The Sigma 2200's —also skirted— are intermediate in rotor depth/pinion shaft length.

The AR mechanism is pre-pinion; In fact, this one is well forward, inside that elongated rotor base.

These are not silent, nor glass-like, reels in action. They produce a fair amount of whirring, that in part feels like it's the wind generated by the 5:1 ratio and "winged" rotor (being a skirted reel)! I'm not joking; The rotor creates quite a little breeze! But despite the hiss, they are tight feeling reels, with no clicking and clunking going on. And, again, I fished the heck out of this D1300 (with 6 to 10lb lines) and its drive train is still tight and fishable.

For comparison, I also have a Black Gold series Daiwa, a BG15 (same capacity as the D1600) that I purchased new sometime in the 90s and that I've put a LOT of tough miles on. More on this abuse —or stretching the limits— shortly, as it weighs in on reel quality.

The BG's look like fancied up D-series —gold spool and trim, and wood handle knob. But a closer look shows that there are some significant differences directed at performance. It has a slightly different body, better reinforcement of the rotor "wings", possibly even a stronger alloy for the body? The main gear does not appear to be cast, but machined as one can make out machining marks on the gear face. It is not steel as it is not magnetic; Possibly an aluminum alloy of some type? The main shaft is likely stainless (being finer, and brighter than the shaft in the D1600). The main gear is supported by ball-bearings rather than nylon bearings as in the D-series. EDIT: The schematics for the D-series and BG-series show the same gear package numbers. The two look different in my reels, but may not be. The parts numbers for the main shaft are different however.

The reel feels and sounds very much like the D-series reels. With the smaller lighter duty models (the D1000, D1300 and BG10, BG13), one might not ever really tell there is much of a difference between the two series, except perhaps after much saltwater use. The D-series build may just be entirely adequate for lighter line weights.

My BG15, however, I've used most often with 14 to 17lb lines for largemouth bass, often in heavy vegetative cover, employing what I call "torque-reeling" that puts some serious stress on the reel. That is, locking the drag down and cranking those fish out before they can turn and bury. This BG has held up very well, with only two signs of the abuse I've put it -and myself!- through:

-At one point I ended up at my doctor's office with my doc's only ever case of "Bass Elbow", more commonly known as "Golfer's Elbow" or epicondylitis —a strained and inflamed tendon. I'd been reefing too many big bass on spinning gear and managed to do in my right elbow. Doc said, "Leave it alone or you'll end up in surgery". It took a full year to heal. During this time I had to switch to fishing lefty. What a frustrating experience at first, and a strange brain game.

I switched the handles over to the right side on my spinning reels, and here's where a weakness was exposed in my BG15 and presumably some other convertible reels. While torque-reeling a bass from dense milfoil, the handle snapped inside the reel! What had happened was, to make the reel convertible between L and R requires different threading. To accomplish this, the right-side retrieve uses CCW threading, but to add CW threading for lefty use, the handle shaft for the main gear on that side of the reel must be milled down in diameter. And it was too thin to handle torque-reeling on the lefty retrieve side. I still happily use my venerable BG15, but I'm also back to right-handed fishing.

-This giving no quarter "torque-reeling" has shown up in the gear teeth too. There is a short span on the main gear where the teeth have been sheared.

It would be better to go up in reel size for this kind of work. Or to a worm-gear driven reel. However, rumor has it that worm-gear drive-trains may bind (stop!) when challenged this way. I do not know if this is so in practice. Most bass anglers go with conventional reels for this kind of fishing. And I do too. But I still use spinning gear out there on those cover-dense bass waters, too.

Not sure where to rate the old BG's: Top of the heap 'B'? Or does it kick over into the 'A' range? What would you all think?

philaroman

#307
Quote from: Paul Roberts on September 23, 2021, 10:41:40 PM
-This giving no quarter "torque-reeling" has shown up in the gear teeth too. There is a short span on the main gear where the teeth have been sheared.
methinks, that's called winching
something you're distinctly NOT supposed to do w/ smaller spinners,
but I understand the need, for bass in weed


It would be better to go up in reel size for this kind of work.
Absolutely, but specifically, next-size-up GEAR SET
which may mean going up several model-sizes for smaller spinners
seems easier to accomplish w/ lo-pro & small round baitcasters


Or to a worm-gear driven reel. However, rumor has it that worm-gear drive-trains may bind (stop!) when challenged this way. I do not know if this is so in practice.
not all jams taste the same  ;D ;D ;D
when you push a worm-drive past its winching capabilities, it jams BY DESIGN "to tell you so"
you ease off, PROMPTLY & fish on...  if not so prompt, you might have to jiggle the handle,
or rare worst-case unjammed at the bench, but still -- MAIN is likely fine!!!  8) 8) 8)

w/ modern main-OVER-pinion, you can keep winching past intended capabilities, at the cost of grinding the alloy gear teeth
takes longer, more force to completely jam up, but when you do, you likely have toast & jam -- i.e., MAIN is TOAST!!!   :'( :'( :'(
worse, there may be broken teeth involved... rattling around, damaging other parts


Paul Roberts

#308
 ;D Fun post, philaroman! Yes, certain types of fishing may just sift out the A,B,C's for us. I realize, perhaps, how lucky I've been using that BG rather than the D for all that winch fishing. That D-series cast main gear might have been toast; Broken teeth rather than slightly sheared.

Maybe I should add a warning for my post! ⚠️"Don't try this at home!"⚠️ Without proper safety equipment: A reel up to the task.

I do love my "B's", and even my "C's" (yes I still have a soft spot for some of those), when used within appropriate limits.

Got a couple more lined up at the bench. The next is of the straight bevel variety, one that was too pretty to pass up, even though it was designed with no selectable AR switch! Blasphemous! to a back-reeler like me. I may have to see what I can do about that. The reel is too pretty not to take to the water.

Sharkb8

The old diawa BG were great reels  I bought the new ones Bg 2000 and BG 2500 and sold them after 1 1/2 years they started to get bearing noise, I gone back to using the old BG 10 which I have had for 30 years still working excellent.

Kim

Paul Roberts

Amazing. Sad to hear about the new ones. Daiwa still makes the SS series. They must have market for them. Seems to me they could bring back the old BG series. I'd buy more.

Paul Roberts

#311
Next up is a Langley designed, Zebco built, and Abercrombie & Fitch sold, spinner. Phew! I think I'll just call it a Langley for brevity. This one sports another type of gear train, a straight bevel-geared reel, meaning the pinion is in-line with the center of the main gear, and the teeth are straight rather than curved in a helical/spiral pattern as is seen in more modern spinners. This gear train dates back to the 1930's, essentially the very beginning of what we'd recognize as a spinning reel. It's not much used anymore, with one notable, and upgraded, exception: the Van Staal saltwater reels that use a helical, or spiral, bevel-gear train. The Van Staal followed in the foot steps of the once-famous Luxor and Crack reels that made their mark in the 50's and 60's. The larger Luxor/Crack reels were popular with surf fishers because of their dependability, and ease of in-the-field maintenance due to their simplicity.

This gear train I have little experience with, beyond a couple somewhat worn Luxors and this Langley, none of which have I had on the water. One notable thing about this straight bevel gear train is that they are somewhat noisy; You can hear the gears buzzing as they go through their paces. There is some rotor noise too as there is no ball bearing, just a large bronze bearing and a similar colored shim, supporting the rotor. All of this is housed in an aluminum body and rotor, which tends to amplify internal sounds. It's not a quiet reel, but is not too bad either. Definitely fishable.

The two gears —main and pinion— are cast metal and likely soft. The pinion is small and affixed to a somewhat elongated aluminum pinion shaft. The gear teeth are small/not deep; It's not meant to be a powerful reel, unlike the large Luxor/Crack models were. It's a small reel, designed for 6lb test. Due to the noise, soft materials, and perhaps the straight bevel gear train, we'll call it a mid B-grade within its line weight rating. (Not sure where the Luxor's/Crack's would rate, as they use phosphor bronze and steel gears and were renowned for their durability; Possibly a high B rating? They were an A in their day.)

Spool oscillation is accomplished via a post or 'button' on the face of the main gear that mates with a slot in an oscillation block, as we saw in the Compaq SL, and was common in many 70's B or C-grades. The block is supported by two wings that mate with a pair of ridges inside the reel's body. The reel looks as though it should be convertible, R or L, although an ad says they could be purchased in R and L hand models. I believe the L's were designated 'B'.

The main shaft is likely steel, and is supported by the somewhat elongated aluminum pinion shaft, the "winged" oscillation block, and by a bronze sleeve bearing at the distal end that protrudes from the rear of the reel body.

The reel's body is aluminum, as Langley specialized in aluminum parts production during WWII. The reel weighs 8oz. according to an advertisement. Oh yes, for those who've ever fumbled with tiny screws when servicing old reels, a thoughtful thing the Langley folks did on many of their reels was to provide self-centering screws. Just drop them in the hole and start threading! That was surely appreciated by reel service folks everywhere.

The bail was askew on this reel, and I found the rubber bumper bail stop damaged, crushed by the bail stop contact piece. I CA glued a thick piece of felt as a quick fix, until I find something better suited. The reel has a coil type spring and the mechanism trips smartly. I also CA'd the rubber band on the external bail trip post seen on the underside of the rotor neck.

I scooped and chipped out the hard dry grease like a dental hygienist, burnished and lubed, using more grease than oil considering the noise I knew I'd be hearing.

I'll likely fish it as it's such a cool looking, even pretty, little reel. However, the gear ratio is on the slow side. It also has a feature —much touted by Langley, etc...— a self-centering bail with no anti-reverse switch. I don't need that kind of help, or unasked for slack. And... as a back-reeler I find no selectable AR switch downright offensive! "Blasphemy!" I shout!! Since I'd like to fish this reel I removed those offending parts (stashing them away), and now must rig up an external AR to keep the rotor in check for when I'm not casting with it. Possibly a classy matching black hair band will work?

You may notice I haven't mentioned the drag in any of the reels I've reviewed here. As a back-reeler... I don't need no stinkin' drag. That will change if/when I review the larger saltwater spinners. I do notice the drag on this Langley does not lock down fully, so I may have to fix that. As it is, with it's small size, light weight, and slow retrieve speed, it may just get most of its use as a cold-water bass fishing reel using 4lb or 6lb lines.

Wompus Cat

Cool Reel some similarities to the  Langley Spin Flo .
Good Job  Paul !
If a Grass Hopper Carried a Shotgun then the Birds wouldn't MESS with Him

Paul Roberts

#313
Thanks, Henry. Yes, it's actually the same reel as the Langley Spin Deluxe and Zebco 850 (Edit: 830). A&F called it the Monogram 200 Six. It is a cool looking reel I think.

Midway Tommy

Quote from: Paul Roberts on September 27, 2021, 02:27:39 AM
Thanks, Henry. Yes, it's actually the same reel as the Langley Spin Deluxe and Zebco 850. A&F called it the Monogram 200 Six. It is a cool looking reel I think.

Well done, Paul, nice evaluation.

The A&F Monogram 200 Six is actually the same reel as the Langley and Zebco Spin deLuxe 830s. The Zebco Spinlite 850 is an ultralight and the A&F Monogram 150 Three is an ultralight (the same as the Zebco 850).
Love those open face spinning reels! (Especially ABU & ABU/Zebco Cardinals)

Tommy D (ORCA), NE



Favorite Activity? ............... In our boat fishing
RELAXING w/ MY BEST FRIEND (My wife Bonnie)