alan tani @ alantani.com fishing reel repair rebuild tutorial Penn 209 teardown and refresh, my first reel project!
Reel Repair by Alan Tani
December 10, 2019, 01:40:19 PM *
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Author Topic: Penn 209 teardown and refresh, my first reel project!  (Read 1509 times)
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Gfish
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« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2019, 12:45:59 PM »

I've found that the stock under-gear fiber washer usually doesn't spin against the AR cog, but the main gear spins pretty well sittin on topa the stock washer. Usually, under drag pressure, the AR cog's "teeth" bite into the washer a little and hold it still. It's only a $1.00 part, but, you could flat-lap one side of it with 1000-1200 grit wet/dry and reuse it. Hard to beat delrin as a thrust bearing washer, though.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2019, 12:51:59 PM by Gfish » Logged

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« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2019, 12:51:06 PM »

The clamp screws are standard 10-24 screws Lowes has then in Stainless steel including the wing nuts. If the head has to have the edge ground down use a Dremel.

Valuable info. here, thanks George. 
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« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2019, 01:56:45 PM »

This might be off the wall and probably not relative to the subject of under gear washers in conventionals, but I put a thin carbontex washer on top of a delrin under-spool washer on an old spinfisher to see if it would improve line lay.  It accomplished the purpose and the drag was super smooth (used it for stripers). But then that's on a spinner.

Just out of curiousty --would there be a downside to using a thin cf on top of a thrush washer in the 209 or other conventional if it didn't otherwise raise the gear up enough to cause a problem?
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« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2019, 04:12:11 PM »

I've found that the stock under-gear fiber washer usually doesn't spin against the AR cog, but the main gear spins pretty well sittin on topa the stock washer.

Good observation. I've wondered about that and noticed the marks on the underside of the washer.
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Gfish
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« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2019, 10:58:44 AM »

This might be off the wall and probably not relative to the subject of under gear washers in conventionals, but I put a thin carbontex washer on top of a delrin under-spool washer on an old spinfisher to see if it would improve line lay.  It accomplished the purpose and the drag was super smooth (used it for stripers). But then that's on a spinner.

Just out of curiousty --would there be a downside to using a thin cf on top of a thrush washer in the 209 or other conventional if it didn't otherwise raise the gear up enough to cause a problem?
[/quote

Sounds like a plan, Stan. The thrust washer might provide some support for the cf.
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« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2019, 12:40:08 PM »

This might be off the wall and probably not relative to the subject of under gear washers in conventionals, but I put a thin carbontex washer on top of a delrin under-spool washer on an old spinfisher to see if it would improve line lay.  It accomplished the purpose and the drag was super smooth (used it for stripers). But then that's on a spinner.

Just out of curiousty --would there be a downside to using a thin cf on top of a thrush washer in the 209 or other conventional if it didn't otherwise raise the gear up enough to cause a problem?



Sticking a drag washer on top of a thrust washer makes the drag washer a less effective drag washer, and the thrust washer a less effective thrust washer. One of many issues for purposes illustration: If you bring an operating drag washer into direct contact with the thrust washer, you are going to heat up the thrust washer.  Delrin gets very squishy once you get close to 250F, oand max short term operating temp is around 210.

At light  clamping loads,  lots of combinations of materials might work OK, but once  you get into bigger reels with higher drag settings, you will want the braking system to be using braking materials and surface finishes that have the proper static and dynamic coefficient of friction for the clamping force range applied by the drag star/ lever,  and that will not scratch up, warp, or degrade under the heat of braking. Keeping the thrust washer out of the mix will help.

 Lots of threads on this topic.

-J
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« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2019, 02:15:03 PM »

Sticking a drag washer on top of a thrust washer makes the drag washer a less effective drag washer, and the thrust washer a less effective thrust washer. One of many issues for purposes illustration: If you bring an operating drag washer into direct contact with the thrust washer, you are going to heat up the thrust washer.  Delrin gets very squishy once you get close to 250F, oand max short term operating temp is around 210.

At light  clamping loads,  lots of combinations of materials might work OK, but once  you get into bigger reels with higher drag settings, you will want the braking system to be using braking materials and surface finishes that have the proper static and dynamic coefficient of friction for the clamping force range applied by the drag star/ lever,  and that will not scratch up, warp, or degrade under the heat of braking. Keeping the thrust washer out of the mix will help.

 Lots of threads on this topic.

-J

Jurelometer, thanks for that info.

EDIT:(I'm re-wording my post here)

So with bigger reels it's more important to have a good drag washer below the gear?
If the old fiber thrust washer is replaced by a delrin washer, does the delrin function best as a thrust washer or a drag washer... or both?

(The reel I was referring to that I added a cf on top of a delrin washer is a little 714 that I wouldn't be using for fish that would generate that much heat... although I may be tempted to put it to the test.Smiley )

« Last Edit: August 14, 2019, 02:54:12 PM by wfjord » Logged
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« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2019, 03:23:19 PM »

IMO, the delrin makes a great thrust washer, but I didn't know about the 250F-squishy thing. Perhaps it's best, and the most fun, to come up with ideas, then do some real world testing. I know for me, I'm almost always 1 or 2 unforseen issues short of my improvment ideas working like I thought they would...
« Last Edit: August 14, 2019, 03:29:15 PM by Gfish » Logged

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« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2019, 04:22:35 PM »

Sticking a drag washer on top of a thrust washer makes the drag washer a less effective drag washer, and the thrust washer a less effective thrust washer. One of many issues for purposes illustration: If you bring an operating drag washer into direct contact with the thrust washer, you are going to heat up the thrust washer.  Delrin gets very squishy once you get close to 250F, oand max short term operating temp is around 210.

At light  clamping loads,  lots of combinations of materials might work OK, but once  you get into bigger reels with higher drag settings, you will want the braking system to be using braking materials and surface finishes that have the proper static and dynamic coefficient of friction for the clamping force range applied by the drag star/ lever,  and that will not scratch up, warp, or degrade under the heat of braking. Keeping the thrust washer out of the mix will help.

 Lots of threads on this topic.

-J

Jurelometer, thanks for that info.

EDIT:(I'm re-wording my post here)

So with bigger reels it's more important to have a good drag washer below the gear?
If the old fiber thrust washer is replaced by a delrin washer, does the delrin function best as a thrust washer or a drag washer... or both?

(The reel I was referring to that I added a cf on top of a delrin washer is a little 714 that I wouldn't be using for fish that would generate that much heat... although I may be tempted to put it to the test.Smiley )



The delrin replacement is a true thrust washer (technically a plain thrust bearing).    There are actually a few reel models out there that use delrin  for drag washers, but only in situations calling for lighter settings and typically shorter runs.  Delrin has a low coefficient of friction, so it is hard to get a lot of drag out of it.

At the risk of  re-re-repeating myself  Smiley,  the best thing to use for a thrust washer is a thrust washer.   Thrust washers are optimized  to provide a bearing interface (smooth and aligned) for rotating flat surfaces.   A drag washer is optimized to turn motion into heat at a consistent ratio of dynamic to static friction across a range of temperatures.  Generally speaking more  friction is better in a drag washer, and it doesn't matter as much if it compresses a bit, and is fragile around the edges.  So  different material tradeoffs are made.

 As drag setting, speed and distance goes up, more heat is generated by the drag, and more force is placed  on the drive train in a star drag.  Therefore,  a properly engineered system becomes more important.  Swapping in unrelated parts that happen to fit and have some similar functions becomes more risky.

 Folks (including some of our expert repair people) that replace the thrust washer with a drag washer are doing so in order to get  more drag from the same amount of clamping force . More drag for the same clamping force can help make the drag maintain smoothness  at higher settings, so the expectation  is to gain more from the extra drag washer than is lost by giving up the thrust washer.  From what I have read, it seems to work pretty well with greased drags,  but the drag washers will not last as long as thrust bearings on some reels,  as they can get chewed up by the dogs and ratchet, especially when the drag is cranked down at higher settings.

Look at the post I referenced above for a discussion on the benefits and drawbacks of undergear drag washers vs. other choices.  We are getting into a rehash at this point, and the other thread has varying viewpoints from several of our experts.  I am trying to represent several viewpoints, but I can see my bias leaking in a bit.

-J
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« Reply #24 on: August 14, 2019, 04:32:43 PM »

Sorry Dave, I  removed my answer. I just realized his question was directed to you.

Sal
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Lingwendil
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« Reply #25 on: August 14, 2019, 06:57:20 PM »

Second ebay reel came in. Looks in pretty good shape, little more corrosion on the chrome than the first. Darker plastic, and the crossbar are the style that inserts into the sideplates. One has a crack on the outside edges of the mounting holes. Bright steel main gear, with steel drag metal washers. Leather drag washers that were bone dry (the whole reel was other than the level wind) and stuck together pretty good.


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« Last Edit: August 14, 2019, 07:15:43 PM by Lingwendil » Logged
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« Reply #26 on: August 14, 2019, 06:59:48 PM »

Continued-

The spool is much lighter than the first reel had.

Any idea on approximate year?


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« Last Edit: August 14, 2019, 07:08:34 PM by Lingwendil » Logged
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« Reply #27 on: August 14, 2019, 07:07:15 PM »

So far it looks like I just need drag washers and a fiber washer for reel #2, but I think I might want to replace that sideplate with the crack in it. Are those sideplates the same as the more common reels with the regular crossbars? It's a very secure fit, even with that crack.



Back to reel #1-

Everything cleaned up great! The brass all looks very nice with minor staining.



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« Last Edit: August 14, 2019, 07:31:05 PM by Lingwendil » Logged
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« Reply #28 on: August 14, 2019, 07:50:12 PM »

I would replace the cracked ring. They are available.  Replace the entire drag washer set with a complete replacement HT-100 set including the newer stainless steel drag washers Penn part set 6-155.
I would also give some thought in replacing the metal 29-209 spool with the newer 29L-209 Aluminium spool. As to the washer on top,of the gear it's your choice, however the Delrin washer is not going to give you much improvement.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2019, 08:05:40 PM by George6308 » Logged
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« Reply #29 on: August 14, 2019, 09:36:54 PM »

That guy wasn't kidding around.  It looks like about 100 pound test Ashaway braided nylon line.  Probably less than 100 yards of it.  Is the levelwind carriage wallowed out, or was it all just wishful thinking?
-steve
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