113 Grouper Special grinding, gear noise

[SeaDragon]

I read with interest the post about building a 113 Grouper special, and had a cheap 113 on hand I had bought for the long power handle, so, I got a 149 main gear and a 113H pinion from Scotts in NJ, and HT100's too. I did my Dremel work and put the right side plate together, beautiful, butter smooth, loved it. I'm waiting for a 66 Long Beach spool and one of Ted's Tank Top stand and posts, so I put it together with the standard spool and posts, and then I get a gear buzz, bzzzzzzzzzz when cranking. You can feel the vibration and slightly hear it. Great free spool.  So, on investigating if I take my fingernail and put slight side tension on the pinion, it does it. If I just set the spool on the side plate, it does it. I've tried a different pinion. The bushing is very loose on the pinion. it measures just under .215, maybe you could call it .214 1/2 on my dial calipers. Or maybe the spool shaft is tweaked and is the problem? Do any Penn gurus out there have any idea? Thanks, Jeff

[RowdyW]

It seems that the pinion is not completly disengaged from the spool. The eccentric jack ramps may be worn or slightly bent down. Check if the bridge screws are extending out past the bridge plate (1 or 2 threads is ok). Is your drag stack height to high & rubbing the plate? There is no bushing on the pinion gear, it rides on the spool shaft & yoke.

[SeaDragon]

Please read again, the spool is in gear and turning, not out of gear. It is butter smooth without the spool assembled, the spool assembled is causing gear noise. it is a 113 with bushings, the pinion turns on the outside of the spool bushing, the spool arbor shaft is much smaller than the pinion ID, and goes into the bushing. The spool is inside the bushing, the pinion is outside the bushing. Maybe you are thinking of a 113H which has bearings? 

[RowdyW]

The spool bushing has nothing to do with the pinion. The spool bushing alighns the spool and the spool shaft alighns the pinion gear. A few thousands wear on the bushing will not cause the problem you are describeing. Is the spool centered in the reel? I've given you about 5 things to check but you seem to just want to disagree with any solutions.

[SeaDragon]

Sorry but on this 113 black side, the pinion rotates on the outside of the spool bushing, the spool rotates on the inside of the bushing. The pinion does not rotate on the spool shaft. The shaft is more than 1/2 size smaller than the pinion hole. The spool disengages fine, the other things you mentioned are all OK. The reel functions fine, fantastic free spool, goes in and out of gear smoothly. I did check a stock 113 black side, and it does the same thing but not quite as noticeable, so maybe I will just live with it, apart from the gears slight noise, the reel is perfect. 

[RowdyW]

The only clicking you should hear is the AR dog on the gear sleve. About 8 clicks per turn of the handle. The spool bushings are screwed into the right & left plates and do not rotate.

[SeaDragon]

Yes, the dog clicks. Yes, the bushing is stationary, screwed into the side plate. In gear, while reeling, the spool, its shaft, and the pinion move as one unit, the shaft spinning in the bushing, the pinion spinning around the outside of the bushing as it is turning the spool. (They become as one) When the keyway on the spool shaft engages the slot in the pinion, about 3/16" of shaft enters the pinion, and aligns it, the shaft and pinion turn together as one. During this, the gear meshing as they turn can be felt through the handle and reel, more so than usual, but seems to otherwise work fine. If you take the side plate off, without its spool, and turn the crank holding the side plate by its self, it is velvet smooth and quiet, but assembled, in gear, it seems to change the alignment of the main and pinion gears just so slightly to cause this vibration of meshing. I don't think it is the bushing as much as the way the pinion engaged to the spool aligns to the main gear. And if that can be corrected. Or needs to be.

[RowdyW]

Don't forget you are using a pinion from one model reel & a main gear from another model reel. Also a bridge & plate from a third model reel. Penn didn't build these parts with this interchange in mind. Initial fitting of these parts is probably a very slight mismatch. Given a little time in use these parts should wear in together and quiet down and get smoother. A couple of heavy or hard fighting fish will speed up the process. The reel is quiet & smooth without the spool because the gears can spread apart to help the slight mismatch and there is no load on the gears however so slight.

[SeaDragon]

Thank you Rowdy, I think that is a good assessment of this, I doubt it can be improved upon much if any, and it is pretty danged good as is. It is really (reely?) hard to out engineer Penn, but fun to try. I am waiting for Alto Mare to chime in, he has built these. I must say, in spite of my critical nitpicking, this creation works well upping it from 2.1-1 to 2.6-1. I just LOVE 113H's and this does something to fill a nitch with old 113's sitting on a shelf.