CASTING WITH BRAID ON CONVENTIONAL REEL

[RowdyW]

Steve, I don't think that you can compare the casting preformance of conventional reels with spinning reels on the same rod. For one thing the spine of the rod is opposite for the two reels. Also the optimum size of the guides and spacing is different between the two different reels. I think you are comparing an apple to an orange even though they are both fruits.        Rudy

[Alto Mare]

Here at the East coast many still use mono, I'm one of them.
I have tried braid, got much better distance, but most times the knot failed.
I tried different knots and also glue, helped, but still failed.
A heavier leader helped a lot, but I  didn't like using it,
40 would be the most I would like for sime type of fishing I do.

Sal

[Cor]

Yeah Jeri, I hear you but I am not going to change over to a whole new technology where I am at a stage in my life where I actually want to get rid of tackle, not acquire more stuff.
Spinning reels have disadvantages as well, but let's leave that for another thread, or maybe when I visit for some coffee one day

It is just not logical that to persevere with a system that is not working because of the very nature of the braid, that you should discount change. We have folks here casting with slim braids with 'spinning' rods and small lures in the 2-3oz range to well over 120 metres - would solve all your problems at a stroke.

But as you say, a divergence from your thread.

The kettle is on for coffee ..............  

That is not really correct.    I switched to braid about 4 years ago and prior to that I did many experiments and at that point decided braid does not work for the type of fishing I do.   However round 2010 I started magging my reels and decided that it makes casting easier, especially quick casting after fish and sacrificed very little distance.    I then again experimented with braid and made it work, and I can tell you it does work and you do not lose much distance because of the mags and what you do lose is well compensated for by the reliability you gain.

A good cast control is essential for using braid, you need to remove any slack in the line during cast otherwise disaster strikes.   The reels I use don't lend themselves to a variable system which will probably make it perfect.

I do agree that Spinners, with the right setup and a competent caster can outcast me by as much as 20 mt, but I have no intention to change.   Most times distance is not that important to me, when it is I fetch another reel loaded with mono.    Many don't out cast me, having one type of reel is complicated enough to understand these days, as bad as Windows 10

So I have now used braid for nearly 5 years and I dare say that in totality I have had far less casting issues then the average other good caster and have generally been very happy with my braid.

What brought this thread about is that I have been fishing at different spots to my usual and the wind has been much more variable.    If you are suddenly faced with wind in your face, even light and you don't notice you have a problem because your lure slows down in the air and the spool does not get slowed down adequately by the cast control, which should then be adjusted slightly.   I have also used a different rod at times, which requires a different casting style.

Here is a photo I took this morning, I tried to see how and why the line gets jammed between the other.   I dont have the answer, but could see what is happening.   I had 4 different lines.  On one reel, 40 lb Suffix 832 which was fairly new and smooth, 50lb Suffix 832 and anolder section of the same, and some 80lb Powerpro which was very worn and furry in the front 10 mt.    The first photo is 40 lb Suffix 832 on an  ABU GARCIA 6600C4 and the second is 80lb Powerpro on a SHIMANO  TRANX 500HG.
You can see in both cases the line got stuck, but more so on the 80lb Powepro.

I have some other stuff to do today as well  

[Swami805]

I started using braid for casting last year with mixed results, thinking I'll do it more this year, it takes some getting used too. I found it helpful to guide the line on less perpendicular to the spool edge so there's more of an angle across the spool as the line is laid down. The line can't really dig in from the top since it's crossing the line below and not laying next to it if that makes sense.  Might give that a try and see if that helps.
  I got my first Level wind reel for casting this year ,a Daiwa Lexa,so it won't be possible with that.

[Cor]

I started using braid for casting last year with mixed results, thinking I'll do it more this year, it takes some getting used too. I found it helpful to guide the line on less perpendicular to the spool edge so there's more of an angle across the spool as the line is laid down. The line can't really dig in from the top since it's crossing the line below and not laying next to it if that makes sense.  Might give that a try and see if that helps.
  I got my first Level wind reel for casting this year ,a Daiwa Lexa,so it won't be possible with that.

Is a good thought.   Or spread the line across the spool zig zag much quicker then normal.
Mimmmmm..... problem is I use levelwinders.

[gstours]

After reading this post from mr. Cor the thought struck me again of a possible solution that could be on a casting reel that you cannot buy.
   A casting reel with a more agressive levelwind layering ratio, AND a disingaging or, freefloating levelwind bar that allows the line to seek its own outgoing path ....??   The slightly more crossing over itself braid may not dig into the sistered line as its sorta crossing over it more like a spinning reel?    Just my 2 cents. 
    Casting into the wind reminds me why I gave up flyfishing on the beach on nice mornings.  Darn wind.

[Ron Jones]

Cor,
I have lived with the issue your picture describes for several decades, originally with mono and later with braid. It is much more difficult to not allow the issue with braid. What is happening is loss of tension, either during the cast, during the retrieve or both. Braid is small and likes to "bury" itself under layers of line on the spool if the line is not tight enough to prevent it. Braid's small diameter means it takes more attention to line tension during the initial spool loading, the cast and the retrieve to prevent the issue.

This is one of my issues with adjustable cast control. If your cast control is adjusted for a particular environment and that environment changes unexpectedly from wind or current shift, you will experience difficulty until you figure out what your new cast control setting should be. Better, I think, to evaluate what, if anything, has changed and adjust your casting style to suit the new conditions.

The only thing I can recommend  is to spend more cognitive resources ensuring that the braid is never put on the spool loose or allowed to loosen excessively during the cast.

The Man

[steelfish]

Here is a photo I took this morning, I tried to see how and why the line gets jammed between the other.  
You can see in both cases the line got stuck, but more so on the 80lb Powepro.

I have some other stuff to do today as well  

WOW, How do you managed to get the line so evenly lined up? looks like lined up by a machine!!

if you check my reels you will see the braided line lined up with no pattern at all, a bump here, a deep valley here, criss-cross here, etc, maybe that helps to do have the line to dig on the lower layers since there is a bunch of line crossing by everywhere.

basically just what my compadre Sheridan just say, to guide the line more pendendicular to the spool edge while cranking the reel for few turns, then try to guide the line more evenly (like yours) and if possible the last crancks guide the line again on a cris cross pattern, looks like difficult but I think I do it on "automatic" when retrieving line from deep drops or long casts

[Cor]

I started using braid for casting last year with mixed results, thinking I'll do it more this year, it takes some getting used too. I found it helpful to guide the line on less perpendicular to the spool edge so there's more of an angle across the spool as the line is laid down. The line can't really dig in from the top since it's crossing the line below and not laying next to it if that makes sense.  Might give that a try and see if that helps.
 I got my first Level wind reel for casting this year ,a Daiwa Lexa,so it won't be possible with that.

Is a good thought.   Or spread the line across the spool zig zag much quicker then normal.
Mimmmmm..... problem is I use levelwinders.

After reading this post from mr. Cor the thought struck me again of a possible solution that could be on a casting reel that you cannot buy.
  A casting reel with a more agressive levelwind layering ratio, AND a disingaging or, freefloating levelwind bar that allows the line to seek its own outgoing path ....??   The slightly more crossing over itself braid may not dig into the sistered line as its sorta crossing over it more like a spinning reel?    Just my 2 cents.  
   Casting into the wind reminds me why I gave up flyfishing on the beach on nice mornings.  Darn wind.

After reading Swami805's post It seemed like a possible solution and went to do a little test.    Using my ABU GARCIA 6600C4 I laid the line on the spool by hand by not threading it through the levelwind.   My plan was to criss cross it fairly aggressively as it seems obvious that the line could then not fill little gaps and then not dig in and get stuck.

Haha, I could not force it to go where I wanted it to.   It follows the natural lay of the line on the reel, then makes a "jump" in the direction I was trying to force it and then once again follows the lay of the line.    I tried about 50 mt but could not do it.  It also made the line more bulky on the spool and I would need to remove some line if I wanted to pursue this.  Maybe there is a way?

Perhaps a much wider spool will make it possible.

I repeated this exercise later today, using the Tranx with 80lb braid.   I removed the reel from the rod which I think made this experiment easier.    I was able to criss cross the line much more effectively on this reel.    I don't know if it's the line or the reel?   The effect was very interesting, firstly the reel will take a lot less line if you do this, but secondly, as suggested, it reduced the binding effect of the line and produced much less jamming of the braid by probably 2/3rds, which is significant!

I've done nothing else but fiddle with reels and line today....LOL

[Cor]

Here is a photo I took this morning, I tried to see how and why the line gets jammed between the other.  
You can see in both cases the line got stuck, but more so on the 80lb Powepro.

I have some other stuff to do today as well  

WOW, How do you managed to get the line so evenly lined up? looks like lined up by a machine!!

if you check my reels you will see the braided line lined up with no pattern at all, a bump here, a deep valley here, criss-cross here, etc, maybe that helps to do have the line to dig on the lower layers since there is a bunch of line crossing by everywhere.

basically just what my compadre Sheridan just say, to guide the line more pendendicular to the spool edge while cranking the reel for few turns, then try to guide the line more evenly (like yours) and if possible the last crancks guide the line again on a cris cross pattern, looks like difficult but I think I do it on "automatic" when retrieving line from deep drops or long casts

Levelwinder on both reels.  

See comment above https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=30189.msg351186#msg351186

It seems actually possible that a level winder aggravates this problem??   And so more and more ideas and thoughts come to the fore.

Afterthought, I did many years ago try an ordinary 40 and/or 50 wide reel with braid and quickly concluded it does not work.    Various different reasons but one was that my fingers quickly started to bleed from line cuts as you lay the line on the spool with your finger.  I often cast constantly, 100 per minute and with wet fingers you get cut to bits by braid, even JB hollow which is fairly flat and smooth did that.

[oc1]

Steve, I don't think that you can compare the casting preformance of conventional reels with spinning reels on the same rod. For one thing the spine of the rod is opposite for the two reels. Also the optimum size of the guides and spacing is different between the two different reels. I think you are comparing an apple to an orange even though they are both fruits.        Rudy

Rudy, they are two identical fly rod blanks.  One is built as a spinning rod and the other built as a baitcasting (conventional) rod.  I understand the difference.

If you're paying attention, you should know when there is extra tension being paced on the line which will likely lead to problems on the next cast.  You can strip off a few yards by hand to un-stick it before winding on more line, or you can take it easy on the next cast to compensate.

I don't usually bother putting in adjustable magnets and have them fixed in place with screws or glue.  The number of stacked magnet wafers is then tuned to the rod, reel, lure weight and wind.  I want it to be thumb free casting across the wind or with no wind.  The same setting will be good for down wind but won't work for up wind.  Up wind I have to make a conscious effort to use some thumb pressure.

Some time ago, Lee (Keta) provided information from Jerry Brown.  JB said to wind his braid on closely without a lot of back-and-forth layering.  I thought that was strange advice because of the issue we're discussing here.  But, he's the expert.

Synchronous levelwind mechanisms are going to cost you a lot of distance.  Disengaging levelwind mechanisms will cost you less distance, but still have a cost.  I don't use either any more.  I've tried the aggressive back-and-forth manual levelwinding but it did not seem to help and required a lot of concentration.  After a while, you can just let muscle memory take care of the manual levelwinding.
-steve

[jurelometer]

I think  you folks are homing in on the problem.   
My experience is that the most problematic situation comes from working a lure that causes a loss of tension, like working a popper with a big rod swing, or Japanese style slow pitch jigging.  Now combine this with some high tension after a hookup.   This happens to me when working lures for yellowtail with the drag buttoned down.


The line digs in because it is limp and of a small diameter.  After digging in, the slack is taken out from  the loose wraps that are now  on top of the new coil.  A more aggressive crossing pattern helps, but the biggest improvement is switching to  a larger diameter braid.

I haven't had much of a problem with my Okuma Komodo levelwind, but it is much tougher using a similar sized non- levelwind reel with a magnet .   My bigger conventional casting reels stick pretty bad with 50 lb. braid, but sometimes this is a worthwhile tradeoff, as 50 lb braid works nice for working lures deep in current.

I  disagree with the comments about issues from water absortion, salt crystals, stiff mono lines casting farther, the uniform superiority of spinning reels over conventional, etc.,  but will avoid commenting further in order to not hijack the thread like I usually do

-J

[SoCalAngler]

Cor,

Thanks for the pics of the line coming off the spool this shows more than one may think.

In pic #1 that line looks jammed to me. I'm not really a betting man but I will give 3 to 1 odds that reel/spool has a underwrap. The braid has not dug deep into the spool before it got stuck right? If in fact that is the problem then this it is not a braid issue? A underwrap can only happen when spooling, attaching a new hook or lure, or when rigging your reel to fish. I've had this happen and it was due to me, a user error.

Pic #2 looks like most that use braid. Meaning the first several layers are packed looser due to casting and what not and the more packed layers underneath don't let the braid to dig in. I may be wrong in looking at your pics and if I am I'm sorry.

Still I think pic 1 is due to a underwrap.

Casting and the line pinching is a problem, I fully understand that, but it is easily controlled by a longer topshot than yourself or I can cast. Pretty simple in my mind.

My use of braided lines is due to using smaller reels with the cranking power, stopping power and ability to handle larger fish

I like the input of guys saying they have been using braided lines for a few years. What really matters to me is if they try to fix a issue or just live with it?

[Cor]

I'll get back to this in a few days time.   I've gathered a fair number of ideas about it but one problem is the very different ways in which many of us fish.   If I make light casts of say 50yds this will never be a problem, but when you lean into it, it leads to breakage of tackle because you are stopping a lure of 3 1/2 oz in full flight, using line with near zero elasticity.

I cast about 90 yds and retrieve using a level winder, sometimes for a number of hours with a few breaks.   I catch an occasional fish which will result in the line being wound up very much tighter than usual, but that happens relatively little   compared with the casts I make and I am aware of that problem.   I don't bother much with spooling the line as after my first cast, that is all history.

Because of the pull from the water, waves, wind the line is laid on the spool with varying tension and not controllable under those circumstances.   The lure will sometimes jump of the top of a wave in to the trough of another.     Sometimes I sink my lure and wind it up fast.   I vary my retrieve rate (speed) and so on.  So the tension on the line will change constantly from near zero when the lure becomes airborne to when you again get a pull on it.    Personally I think these things will contribute to the problem but, that is not the main cause.    I say this because I've tried yesterday to lay the line on the reel using nice equal pressure, I then pulled it off, fast and very/or slowly and in both situations it did  lightly jam to the spool, the one photo was taken at that time.

Something else I need to check,...... when making a hard cast, there is probably significant force/pull on the line the moment before release, this could pull the line ento the strands below, but then it would cause an immediate problem, not after 1 second.

This is actually very difficult to explain all, because how tight is jammed?   Not very tight at all less, then one 1/4 oz pull and release it, but that is enough to pull the line around the reel and cause a big blow up.

How often does that happen?    Not often at all, but the consequences are so serious that once per day is too much to live with.

Again my thanks to all for the ideas, please keep them coming.

[CapeFish]

Overwinds tend to occur for me nearly always at the same time in the cast, I suspect it is when the sinker or lure reaches max speed. With reels spooled with braid only, I find that the overwind has very little of the big loops that form in mono, the ones that wrap over each other and you have to dig out to get the mainline out. One such loop though is enough to make the braid dig in really deep followed by the familiar cracking sound   With mono a minor overrun like that is not serious and it just runs itself out. I generally don't get overwinds in mono or braid that looks like a monster birds nest often shown on photos. Its the softness of the braid and the no stretch that causes this nonsense to happen. Even if you use braid for backing this can happen when a fish takes a long run. When it first became popular all the shark anglers started using it as backing but there were many mishaps of big fish running far, drags cranked up and the bang, braid gets snagged. Some people went to the extremes of spooling their braid backing with lathes resulting in cracked spools.