alan tani @ alantani.com fishing reel repair rebuild tutorial CASTING WITH BRAID ON CONVENTIONAL REEL
Reel Repair by Alan Tani
January 26, 2020, 11:20:59 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 3 [4]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: CASTING WITH BRAID ON CONVENTIONAL REEL  (Read 1136 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
jurelometer
Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 466


« Reply #45 on: January 10, 2020, 12:49:34 PM »

I'll get back to this in a few days time.   I've gathered a fair number of ideas about it but one problem is the very different ways in which many of us fish.   If I make light casts of say 50yds this will never be a problem, but when you lean into it, it leads to breakage of tackle because you are stopping a lure of 3 1/2 oz in full flight, using line with near zero elasticity.

I cast about 90 yds and retrieve using a level winder, sometimes for a number of hours with a few breaks.   I catch an occasional fish which will result in the line being wound up very much tighter than usual, but that happens relatively little  Cry compared with the casts I make and I am aware of that problem.   I don't bother much with spooling the line as after my first cast, that is all history.

Because of the pull from the water, waves, wind the line is laid on the spool with varying tension and not controllable under those circumstances.   The lure will sometimes jump of the top of a wave in to the trough of another.     Sometimes I sink my lure and wind it up fast.   I vary my retrieve rate (speed) and so on.  So the tension on the line will change constantly from near zero when the lure becomes airborne to when you again get a pull on it.    Personally I think these things will contribute to the problem but, that is not the main cause.    I say this because I've tried yesterday to lay the line on the reel using nice equal pressure, I then pulled it off, fast and very/or slowly and in both situations it did  ightly jam to the spool, the one photo was taken at that time.

Something else I need to check,...... when making a hard cast, there is probably significant force/pull on the line the moment before release, this could pull the line ento the strands below, but then it would cause an immediate problem, not after 1 second.

This is actually very difficult to explain all, because how tight is jammed?   Not very tight at all less, then one 1/4 oz pull and release it, but that is enough to pull the line around the reel and cause a big blow up.

How often does that happen?    Not often at all, but the consequences are so serious that once per day is too much to live with.

Again my thanks to all for the ideas, please keep them coming.

The coil that gets jammed the worst may not be the top coil.  As I mentioned before, loose coils get pulled tight above the dug in coil.  These can make their own jam.  On an early  breakoff on a cast, the jam is probably forming right at casting time.   As the cast is bringing the spool up to speed, the pull from a heavy lure can start causing the line to dig in.  Once it gets started, the process mentioned above takes over, and the top coils cinch down and lock the dug in line before it can leave the spool.   A breakoff later in the cast can be caused when a previously dug in coil is able to rotate past the centerline (the line is not so tight toward the end of the cast)this casues a sudden change in direction of the spool when the line comes tight.   I have ample experience losing lures both ways Smiley

I have had some success developing a softer casting stroke without loosing too much distance, but it is not a natural stroke for me.   Folks that do a lot of casting with unweighted live baits have an advantage here.

Pinching the line during the retrieve to provide some tension helps significantly, but is tedious and it is difficult when using any kind of rod motion.   I have thought about designing some sort of pinching device with felt pads that would be engaged after the cast,  but could not come up with a shape/placement that was convenient to enable, but still did not get in the way when casting.

Looking forward to hearing what you come up with.

-J

Logged
Cor
Cape Town
Member
*
Online Online

Posts: 811


I am probably fishing......


« Reply #46 on: January 10, 2020, 08:40:07 PM »

Thanks jurelometer
No doubt the way you cast has a significant effect.    You need to keep the line as tight as possible without causing drag.   So slow down the spool is one side but the other side is a heavier casting weight and casting in a way that avoids slack line as much as possible.   By casting higher you create more slack in the line which is good for mono but fatal for braid.    If you cast directly towards the target you keep the line tight, but lose some distance.   If its an option cast with the wind from your side or slightly behind.

If you "pinch" the line which I sometimes do inadvertently as a habit from fishing with mono, the line will cut your wet fingers within 1/2 an hours casting.

LOL, I am looking forward to that myself.    The solution is actually in the hands of the braid manufacturers, make braid for spinners and for conventionals!   For the latter add some stiffer fibers, tighten the weave to make the braid firmer, rounder with more body, for conventionals the diameter is not critical.   Stop marketing it as very limp!
« Last Edit: January 10, 2020, 08:45:27 PM by Cor » Logged

Cornelis
Sonnett
Member
*
Online Online

Posts: 11


« Reply #47 on: January 11, 2020, 06:42:51 AM »

I have enjoyed this thread. My own fishing is strictly freshwater baitcasting with vintage narrow spool reels and rods from the 1940's and 1950's. When I first encountered spectra braids some years ago I immediately experienced the problem of line knifing down into the spooled line. This same problem to a lesser degree occurred when braided Dacron (Cortland Micron) first appeared in my world around 1970. I have solved the problem to my satisfaction by filling the spool if it has a metal or plastic arbor with Mono or should it have a balsa or cork arbor with vintage braided Nylon. These both create a very hard base. On top of this base, I spool what I consider about a "cast and a half" of spectra (I prefer Fusion even though it is no longer made). The braid, in this case, casts like a dream and the small diameter and added strength gives me confidence when playing a large Bass or Bowfin in the heavy weeds which my situation also presents. I am using softer action vintage glass rods so the no-stretch qualities of the braid give me more positive hook sets. It has proven to be a very satisfactory solution for me for several years now.
Logged
the rockfish ninja
Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 338



« Reply #48 on: January 11, 2020, 08:18:41 AM »

I'll just add my experiences to the thread.

- Yep, braid buries itself and that makes casting challenging, technique and fresh water on the spool are the only things that have made a difference for me. Wet braid has been easier to keep the line tight on the spool for me, but then I found that a medium tightness worked OK for me, and the only time buried line cast issues came up was after fighting a heavy fish or yanking your rig out of a snag. If I did a practice cast afterwards and re-laid the line on the spool to a proper tension, the next cast was fine.

- The biggest problem I had was snapping off rigs on cast ascents due to birds nest from loading up too much and thumb mistakes. Braid has no give and with mono there's a little give, you can still snap off mono, but braid requires faster reflexes and a more educated thumb.

- I hadn't found any advantages to stiffer braid or coatings and adapted my technique to line that was slightly broken in and limp. The first few casts with new line were usually the trickiest.


*I was mainly using 40-60 lb sufix 832 or Daiwa J-8 strand on an Avet sxj mc with 10ft Daiwa Emcast surf rod casting 30-80 yds in rocky areas. Lost a lot of rigs to the rocks, and yardage of braid each time you trim off the frayed line when you re-rig. Part of the game.

All that said, I found braid to be more efficient at getting fish in, (and I was usually horsing those fish over the rocks), but also more effective in casting once I adapted my technique, and haven't fished mono for more than a decade. Retired from surf casting now, back & feet can't take it anymore, but these were my experiences.

Technique is the only thing that really made a difference.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2020, 08:21:32 AM by the rockfish ninja » Logged
Cor
Cape Town
Member
*
Online Online

Posts: 811


I am probably fishing......


« Reply #49 on: January 13, 2020, 11:57:53 PM »

CASTING WITH BRAID ON CONVENTIONAL REEL

Some notes and my final summery.   I tried to be unbiased  and base this entirely on the information in the thread but it’s not really possible, I also needed to use my own experience and opinion.

PROBLEM
Braid is at best difficult to cast consistently well on a conventional reel.
I think most agree on this.
A bad cast is serious, as the braid has no stretch or shock absorbing properties resulting in a hard and very sudden stop of the airborne casting weight.

WHAT CAUSES IT?
The primary cause we’ve identified is that the braid jams itself between previous strands on the reel which causes it to wind itself in the wrong direction on the reel during a cast and stopping the reel by creating a loop around the casting line.

SOME TESTS, OBSERVATIONS AND DEDUCTIONS
1.   This was not done in a structured or scientific manner!
2.   I used a magnifying glass to examine how the braid was jammed.
3.   I repeated the exercise 8 times with 4 different braids, Suffix 832 40 lb; Suffix 832 50 lb; Suffix 832 80lb and Powerpro 80 lb using two different reels, an ABU GARCIA 6600C4 & a Shimano Tranx HG.
4.   Each time I wound about 40 mt of braid on the reel firmly and evenly by holding the line between my thumb and index finger.    I then put the reel in freespool and lightly turned the spool in a forward direction.
5.   Totally randomly the line was lightly jamming on the spool between two other lines underneath.  On average this happened every 2 - 3 turns of the spool.   There seems no apparent reason, the braid just “finds” somewhere to crawl in and snug down.
6.   Varying the tension during line retrieve did not produce more  or tighter jams.
7.   This jamming is mostly not tight, but strong enough to pull the limp braid in the opposite direction to which the spool is spinning.   But once again there was no pattern or measure in how tight the jamming effect was,  it varied a lot.    
8.   Every now and again there was one bit of jammed braid that was stuck 3 times tighter then the average.
9.   Although there seemed to be only a small difference in the results between the various braids, the 40lb Suffix which was the smoothest of the lot also jammed  more then the others.   This braid was on the ABBU and perhaps it relates to the reel or was just coincidental.    There was no discernable difference between the two reels.
10.   If you pull the line hard it will bury itself deep and tight within the previous coils, I think we’re all aware of this, but this is not specifically what I was investigating.
11.   This tests clearly identified that the line seemed to have a natural tendency to jam between other line on the reel and is not caused by anything else, like the loose strands or wooliness of the older line or even to tight or too loose spooling.


WHY DOES IT JAM LIKE THAT?
1.   This is the more difficult question to answer.
2.   The braid is fairly soft and flexible and seems to flatten  and possibly expand a bit afterwards.   It changes its shape to be able to wedge itself in between small openings.
3.   Powerpro 80 lb is stated to be 0.43mm thick, I measured 0.41mm using well used braid and my Vernier Callipers which would not be very accurate.
4.   I could easily squeeze the braid flat in the callipers (lenthways) to 0.3mm and it seemed to remain like that.
5.   By squeezing it between the sharp point of the callipers, across the braid, I could squeeze it to .19mm, less then half its natural diameter.
6.   Conclusion is that the braid easily adjusts its shape to fit in between narrow openings left by previous strands of line on the reel.   It probably assumes the shape required to fit snugly between other threads.
7.   If you look carefully at the photo of my reel attached, you will see many gaps between two strands, (wound on using levelwinder) where the next bit of line could easily get jammed in between.
8.   It seems conceivable to me that the next layer of braid may then force it deeper in to its “hole”
9.   Even though the jamming is mostly light, the limpness of the braid offers no resistance that could dislodge the jam, as light as it may be.
10.   With a magnifier you can also easily see that the line comes off the reel in odd shapes, not nice and even and straight, probably as a result of being squeezed in to small gaps.
11.   Mono is round and hard and can’t do that.
12.   This is also the reason why new braid that has some coating, is a bit less susceptible to jam.



HOW DO WE AVOID THIS PROBLEM?
1.   There are many suggestions how to avoid the braid from jamming, they may all help but is depends largely on your type of fishing.   I stand and make 100 cast per hour and am unable to retrieve the line on to my spool in a very evenly tight manner without disrupting what I do.
2.   Do not allow the braid to become slack at any stage during your cast and a blow up is unlikely to happen.    
3.   If the line is fairly tight during the cast, it then it is not possible for the momentum of the spool to turn the line around and make a loop or knot.   It will in fact pull the jammed line away and loose from its snug  jammed position.
4.   The equipment used needs to be well balanced and matched to each other.
5.   In my book a good adjustable cast control system to enable a competent caster to make subtle changes to compensate for environmental changes, wind, waves, casting distance etc. is essential and should avoid 99.5% of problems  
6.   Perhaps using newer braid, thicker diameter braid, stiffer braid may all be helpful.
7.   Nothing beats casting experience, for the past week I have been watching the line peel off my reel in an attempt to actually see what happens.   If you make a “jerky” cast, as opposed to a smooth loading of the rod and release, the spool tends to run unevenly and too fast for ½ a second after the release.    That could happen if the rod is too strong for the caster or you attempt to cast too far!
8.   Contrary to what someone commented, avoid the use of a long mono topshot.    If you cast the mono in the normal manner, your reel reaches the braid when the casting weight is already slowing down and you will probably have some loose coils of mono on your reel which then changes to braid.   I know this from experience.
9.   Winding the line on to the reel in a criss cross manner did seem to reduce the jamming and perhaps needs further investigation, but also reduces the reels line capacity.



CONCLUSION
I  have managed this problem pretty well by ensuring the braid always maintains a level of tension during the cast.    Like all casting matters, it is mainly experience that matters most.  
With everything I have written here and above we have to bear in mind that what applies to me does not necessarily apply to you.   We fish very differently to those of you in the US and other places.  This leads to misunderstandings.

I think the major problem inherently lies with the braid, the limpness, thin diameter, and flexibility and loose weave of the stuff.     When I watched it carefully as I peeled it slowly from the reel, I was actually amazed to see how it sticks or jams to the reel and then turns in the opposite direction on its way to causing a major problem for a caster.

The solution is  probably in the hands of the braid manufacturers, make braid for spinners and different braid for conventionals!   For the latter add some stiffer fibres, tighten the weave to make the braid firmer, rounder with more body the diameter is not that critical.   Stop marketing it as very limp!   Maybe someone will say, not possible?

Ironically there is little new information here that was not in my opening post, but to me it is all becomes somewhat clearer by writing it down.



HERE IS A LIST OF KEY COMMENTS OR SUGGESTIONS BY THE CONTRIBUTORS TO THIS THREAD
“Braid needs to be spooled really tightly”

“I have found the best solution is to match your braid's diameter to what mono your reel was designed for”

“It is not a problem as long as the tension is uniform”

“getting the braid wet before casting is recommended”

“PE line just tends to have more uneven surface & catch on itself more braid isn't smooth like mono”

“surface water on the line may act as a lubricant OR weak adhesive”

“give braid the same number of decades you gave mono & it will be equally trouble-free”

“I feel is the most common problem is that the braid under pressure pinches it's self”

“Most braided lines that are coated is for one reason and one reason only, they don't want to show the "fuzz" and broken filaments”

“mono wants to come off the spool" because of the stiffness & stretch”

“criss cross the line much more effectively on this reel”

“most problematic situation comes from working a lure that causes a loss of tension, like working a popper”

“larger diameter braid”

“water on the spool”

“Technique is the only thing that really made a difference”


* IMG_20200109_102839-001.jpg (286.78 KB, 900x1200 - viewed 7 times.)
« Last Edit: January 14, 2020, 10:18:45 AM by Cor » Logged

Cornelis
oc1
Sensei
Member
***
Online Online

Posts: 2856



« Reply #50 on: January 14, 2020, 01:29:49 AM »

That's very well done Cor.  Thank you.  It should be stickied or something.  I wouldn't argue with anything you said, but think you should mention why a person would want to cast with braid in the first place.  Like, because braid casts further, the smaller diameter fishes better with a better presentation, and the smaller diameter means a smaller and lighter reel can get the job done.
-steve
Logged
mhc
Sensei
Member
***
Online Online

Posts: 1000


« Reply #51 on: January 14, 2020, 02:13:01 AM »

What Steve said Cor - good job summing up the collective thoughts on the issue. Thanks, you've put a lot of thought into this.

Mike
Logged

It can't be too difficult - a lot of people do it.
Leerie18
Member
*
Online Online

Posts: 30



« Reply #52 on: January 14, 2020, 09:46:28 AM »

And I am reminded yet again how fortunate I am to have found the AT forum!
Experiential and pragmatic commentary presented succinctly. I will be so much more mindful about my conventional casting with braid after absorbing this. Fantastic summary and overall contribution - thank you Cor.
Logged

LBG addict!
the rockfish ninja
Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 338



« Reply #53 on: January 14, 2020, 05:56:05 PM »

This thread had me thinking, so I looked up a couple things and found that virtually all distance casting competitors use 8-10lb mono on their conventional reels, must be for the same reasons we've talked about braid's issues in this thread. We may be pushing the envelope trying to get the same casting performance out of braid.

I also found them saying "Backlashes are part of every competition." Grin




Logged
oc1
Sensei
Member
***
Online Online

Posts: 2856



« Reply #54 on: January 14, 2020, 10:12:06 PM »

American Casting Association distance casting rules say the minimum line diameter is ten-thousandths inch (0.010").  They do not specify a line strength or material.  

0.010" is equivalent to 8# mono or 30# braid.  8# braid is smaller at 0.005".  

So for practical fishing, the question becomes whether 8# braid that is 0.005" will cast further than 8# mono that is 0.010".

I say yes.  If thinner diameter line was not better for distance casting then there would be no need for a maximum line diameter in tournaments.

The line in the photo above looks like 30# Hi-Vis Yellow Slick Power Pro.  It's good line and has both a slick surface and some backbone (not so limp) when it's new.

-steve
« Last Edit: January 14, 2020, 10:26:11 PM by oc1 » Logged
CapeFish
Member
*
Online Online

Posts: 522



« Reply #55 on: January 15, 2020, 12:03:15 AM »

Thanks Cor for an excellent summary, I am convinced even more  now, no more braid topshot on on conventionals used for casting  Smiley Smiley
Logged
CapeFish
Member
*
Online Online

Posts: 522



« Reply #56 on: January 15, 2020, 12:14:32 AM »

American Casting Association distance casting rules say the minimum line diameter is ten-thousandths inch (0.010").  They do not specify a line strength or material.  

0.010" is equivalent to 8# mono or 30# braid.  8# braid is smaller at 0.005".  

So for practical fishing, the question becomes whether 8# braid that is 0.005" will cast further than 8# mono that is 0.010".

I say yes.  If thinner diameter line was not better for distance casting then there would be no need for a maximum line diameter in tournaments.

The line in the photo above looks like 30# Hi-Vis Yellow Slick Power Pro.  It's good line and has both a slick surface and some backbone (not so limp) when it's new.

-steve

I think International casting competitions allow mono only due to the difficulty of accurately measuring the diameter of braid. You can't really use a caliper or micrometer as you will flatten it. Line diameter makes a massive difference in casting distance, hence the strict rules on diameter. I think you will have to be a super skilled caster to whip out ultra thin braid with a 4.5m rod and a 150g sinker to the distances needed to compete in long distance casting competitions which is way over 200m to be competitive. The problems we have discussed here will be exaggerated even more with the force put into those casts. Your question regarding whether the 8lb braid will cast further than the 8lb mono, only if you have the confidence to put the same effort into both. If you are going to be nervous about the super thin braid line then I doubt it will make much of a difference. Use a modern spinning reel and rod though and the one filled with braid becomes a total different ball game.
Logged
Cor
Cape Town
Member
*
Online Online

Posts: 811


I am probably fishing......


« Reply #57 on: January 15, 2020, 06:59:37 AM »

I just wish to make one point; with this thread I only wanted to determine why it is that braid can be so awkward to cast on a conventional reel and I think we succeeded fairly well,  it certainly is much clearer to me!

As I pointed out somewhere above we need to always consider the different forms of fishing we do which does have a significant effect on this.
This also applies to dry casting, for sure.

For the type of fishing I do, mono is the easier casting line and probably also gets the further distance on conventional reels.    A person who uses a baitcaster, lobs a 1 oz lure with a one handed cast, may find the total opposite.    A Spinning reel with a good setup, loaded with braid outcasts mono and give less trouble.    That tackle nearly always casts 10 + mt further then I do.

Perhaps the next question someone may wish to ask me is:- why do I persist using braid if it is so problematic?
         I love the strength and durability!
         I have mastered casting with it fairly well, I made about 400 casts today and same yesterday with not one problem, to put it in to
         perspective.

During 2008 braid became readily available here and I did some tests to see how it works for me, .....It didn't!
In 2013 I repeated the tests as someone tried to convince me braid had improve a lot, it still did not work better than Mono.

I have a copy of the results, I have posted it somewhere before and as soon as I find it i'll attach it
ATTACHED BELOW
 

* FIRELINE BRAID TEST RESULTS.pdf (75.7 KB - downloaded 9 times.)
« Last Edit: January 15, 2020, 10:20:10 AM by Cor » Logged

Cornelis
DougK
Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 12


« Reply #58 on: January 15, 2020, 09:36:47 AM »

For distance casting, you are surely going to continue to have problems using a conventional over a spinning reel - why not just accept that it is generally unsuitable, and change reels. The rock and surf fraternity have embraced 'grinder and braid' over the last few years in southern Africa, and it has done wonders for the sport. Sure there is a need for a specifically designed rod, but the same applies in reverse.

The technology and strength of spinning reels has come on in leaps and bounds, and now they can be used in virtually every situation. In the UK surf scene, there used to be a huge 'snobbery' aspect about folks not mastering conventional reels, but that has since dissolved with the much better spinning reels and use of braid - distances are now pretty much equal or better with braid.

agree. I was fishing with my brother in Australia, he used to be a proponent of centrepin reels for distance casting ;-) using the old KP ball-bearing centrepins, could significantly outcast me casting an Abu 7000 conventional. Now he uses spinning reels with the quality braids like Daiwa Tournament, or Gliss which isn't quite a braid but similar thinness. We spent some time casting these, the longest casts I've ever made..

I fish an old Lews Speedspool for bass here in CO, tried the lighter braids but found them unusable. I've settled on Spiderwire Ultracast Mono, not a big fan of their braids but this mono is very good - thin, minimal memory, good abrasion resistance.

On a Heddon Mark IV 3200 conventional reel from the 50s, on a Heddon cane rod, I've dropped all the way back to braided dacron line. Gudebrod Meatmaster to be specific.
I found this reel very difficult even with mono. Any backlash would instantly dive behind the spool and cut the line. The braided dacron is limp and doesn't backlash hardly at all, if it does it stays on the spool and can be disentangled. It's not great for distance but it's perfectly fishable, kinda fun to cast even..

« Last Edit: January 15, 2020, 09:37:40 AM by DougK » Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 [4]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
Simple Audio Video Embedder
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.854 seconds with 20 queries.