CASTING WITH BRAID ON CONVENTIONAL REEL

Started by Cor, January 07, 2020, 12:40:41 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

oc1

Quote from: DougK on January 15, 2020, 05:36:47 PM
On a Heddon Mark IV 3200 conventional reel from the 50s, on a Heddon cane rod, I've dropped all the way back to braided dacron line. Gudebrod Meatmaster to be specific.
I found this reel very difficult even with mono. Any backlash would instantly dive behind the spool and cut the line. The braided dacron is limp and doesn't backlash hardly at all, if it does it stays on the spool and can be disentangled. It's not great for distance but it's perfectly fishable, kinda fun to cast even..

Really nice Heddon rig.  I agree,  braided Dacron is a real pleasure to fish with. Sometimes it worth putting up with the diameter and fraying just because it has such a good feel.
-steve 

Dave Bentley


I actually use 40mt 80lb braid as topshot, a short 80lb mono leader, and 50lb braid mainline.
I experimented with braid for a number of years and used to load 100mt 0.52mm mono (topshot) on top of 0.3 mm braid.   What happened was that I would cast out the mono, and then the reel would be on its last few turns when it got to the braid, and bang!   The reason for that was largely the fact that you use a different casting style with mono with loose coils on the spool, great for mono but deadly for braid.

Hi Corn, Can you tell me how you join braid to braid. I have tried various knots and they are either to bulky to slid smoothly through the runners or they aren't strong enough.

Only believe that which you know to be true.

Cor

@ Dave Bently .....sorry I only saw your question now.   I sew it together, you need good eyes, braid that is not much thinner than 0.32 mm (50lb) a thinish needle with an eye big enough to take the braid and some patience.   I usually use Suffix 832, it is also "hollow" though not advertised as such ....about 20 stitches on both side and finish by trying to fit it inside the other strand for 2 cm and cutting the ends flush.

MONO VIZ BRAID FOR CASTING
I have many a time made the statement that mono is a superior casting line on conventional reels (not spinners).   I have done many experiments and tests to convince myself that that is indeed so using different conventional reels.   For some time I have been planning to change one of my Tranx 500 reels back to mono and last week end spooled 80 mt of 0.5mm mono topshot to my one reel and yesterday went to fish with it.   Even I was astounded at the difference.    It feels beautifully smooth during the cast as it runs out the guides with not a hint of a backlash and it increased my distance by about 15 mt + using a 11 ft rod and just short of 2.5 oz casting plug.

As always there is a trade off, the mono is not nearly as strong as the 80lb braid topshot I have been using and wont be as durable.

Cornelis

the rockfish ninja

Quote from: Cor on November 13, 2020, 10:19:30 AMit increased my distance

Hmmm....interesting results.

Many years ago I tested braid vs mono extensively for casting and found the opposite. Maybe it's due to your feeling more confident with it and that transfers to your casting, as mono feels better, has stretch, comes off the spool smoother, and is more forgiving.

Braid, on the other hand, has no give, requires a bit more discipline in casting technique, and can feel like you're casting with a razor blade :o.

But I can say with confidence that although it's harder to do, and especially with wind being a factor, I can cast farther with braid than mono.
Deadly Sebastes assassin.

oc1

#64
Quote from: the rockfish ninja on November 13, 2020, 05:10:12 PM
But I can say with confidence that although it's harder to do, and especially with wind being a factor, I can cast farther with braid than mono.

I recently found that eight-strand braid will cast farther than four-strand braid.  That surprised me.... a lot.  I even had to add more static magnets to keep the reel from backlashing with the eight-strand.  I had been using Power Pro for a couple of decades and then tried Suffix 832, J Braid X8 and Tuf-Line.  The jury is still out but I think I like Tuf-Line best.  Kalex, Hercules and JB Line One Solid Core cast about the same as Power Pro.
-steve

the rockfish ninja

Quote from: oc1 on November 13, 2020, 07:04:30 PM
Quote from: the rockfish ninja on November 13, 2020, 05:10:12 PM
But I can say with confidence that although it's harder to do, and especially with wind being a factor, I can cast farther with braid than mono.

I recently found that eight-strand braid will cast farther than four-strand braid.  That surprised me.... a lot.  I even had to add more static magnets to keep the reel from backlashing with the eight-strand.  I had been using Power Pro for a couple of decades and then tried Suffix 832, J Braid X8 and Tuf-Line.  The jury is still out but I think I like Tuf-Line best.  Kalex, Hercules and JB Line One Solid Core cast about the same as Power Pro.
-steve

That's absolutely correct because the 8 ply is smoother over the guides. I learned early about 4 ply after making my thumbprint disappear from surfcasting with it.
Deadly Sebastes assassin.

Cor

#66
Quote from: the rockfish ninja on November 13, 2020, 05:10:12 PM
Quote from: Cor on November 13, 2020, 10:19:30 AMit increased my distance

Hmmm....interesting results.

Many years ago I tested braid vs mono extensively for casting and found the opposite. Maybe it's due to your feeling more confident with it and that transfers to your casting, as mono feels better, has stretch, comes off the spool smoother, and is more forgiving.

Braid, on the other hand, has no give, requires a bit more discipline in casting technique, and can feel like you're casting with a razor blade :o.

But I can say with confidence that although it's harder to do, and especially with wind being a factor, I can cast farther with braid than mono.
I would love to go and cast with you and see why we have a different opinion, not because I don't believe what you are saying, but because I have tested this often before and just again proved it absolutely conclusively, to myself!   We are obviously doing something very different or using very different equipment.   What type of reel are you using, casting weight, line diameter, and rod length and a personal question how far is your cast @ ave?

# Firstly you are absolutely right that confidence makes a big difference, a blow up with braid is terrible and believe me it happens.  I have broken my 80 lb braid on a bad cast!  That caution is absolutely removed with mono.
# I can reduce my cast control setting very substantially with mono and cast without touching the spool.
# I use heavy braid and probably replace the topshot once per many thousands of casts which leaves it rather "furry" and I can feel the wind resistance on the line and probably through the guides as well.
# New firmer braid casts better then the well used limp stuff.

Oh well I don't know why this difference is.

Is much cheaper for you to come and visit me with your tackle and I'll show you some fishing around here, when allowed that is?

PS You've given me the answer why my phone's fingerprint scanner fails to recognise my fingerprint after 2 weeks ???


Cornelis

Brewcrafter

One side thought on the discussion: when you have that rod loaded up and slinging braid - you got what you got, and that energy is coming from your cast, the bend/load in your rod, etc.
So if you are really being serious about slinging, and using mono, is it not possible that the stretch of the mono (at least the first several yards, depending on your rod and the length of line you use to cast) is also being used to store/release energy into the cast?  And yes, I realize this is more geek theoretical than fishing practical, but when guys with the level of talent on this thread talk about the differences they are seeing between throwing mono and braid, beyond the pure "it went longer" I wonder if the energy storage/transference in mono makes "it cast smoother"????

jurelometer

#68
Quote from: Brewcrafter on November 14, 2020, 07:15:50 AM
One side thought on the discussion: when you have that rod loaded up and slinging braid - you got what you got, and that energy is coming from your cast, the bend/load in your rod, etc.
So if you are really being serious about slinging, and using mono, is it not possible that the stretch of the mono (at least the first several yards, depending on your rod and the length of line you use to cast) is also being used to store/release energy into the cast?  And yes, I realize this is more geek theoretical than fishing practical, but when guys with the level of talent on this thread talk about the differences they are seeing between throwing mono and braid, beyond the pure "it went longer" I wonder if the energy storage/transference in mono makes "it cast smoother"????

Interesting question.   I think that 10 feet or so of mono is not going to store and quickly release much energy compared to the rod. The effect should be negligible. When you snap off a lure from an early bird's nest,  and the lure travels an insane distance, this illustrates both how much energy that the rod is storing and releasing, and the effect of friction from unwinding line from the spool and dragging it through the air.  Friction is the controlling factor in the relative distance casting mono and braid.  Plus the secondary effect of backlash anxiety when casting braid :)

If you  tie a hookless lure  to a 10 foot section of mono tied to a tree, load the appropriate amount (mebbe 8 lbs load for 30 lb mono) and release (in a safe direction), you will see how much the mono contributes to the cast.

Regarding folks individual experiences casting braid vs mono:

If you are casting far, and then winding against a light pull (working a lure) and then a strong pull(big fish with locked down drag) all from the same cast, braid will dig in much worse than mono, and the next cast or two can be a problem.

I don't like casting irons longer distances with braid when I have to lock down the drag pretty high.  Also with mono,  I am not worrying about braid backlash when I get overexcited by a big boil at the limit of my casting range. More fun  :)

When somebody says that they can fish with braid just fine for the way that they fish, I don't doubt them.  But not all situations are the same, which has a substantial effect on the amount of friction in play. I think Cor's points are accurate.

-J

Cor

I estimated mono stretches 10 to 15%, I say that because I regularly attach my line to a point in my street, run of 60 mt and test it for strength.   I now see this article https://www.berkley-fishing.com/pages/berkley-ae-why-use-monofilament#:~:text=Stretch%E2%80%94Mono%20stretches%20more%20than,to%2025%20percent%20or%20more. stating 25 %....that is a lot!

I agree that the elasticity in the short section of mono that comes into play with your cast won't affect your casting distance.   Maybe I must try your tree and line experiment, but I think it will release the stored energy slowly.

What we can leave for another day is to what extent the difference between mono and braid effects fishing in general (excluding casting) ;D ;D
Cornelis

oc1

I think that stretch influences every aspect of this whole fishing thing.  Stretchiness (elasticity) is a property of nylon; both monofilament nylon and braided nylon.  The high density polyethylene (UHMWPE) in Spectra braid has much less elasticity.  Dacron (polypropylene) and all the natural fiber lines (linen, cotton, silk) also have very little stretch.

To fish effectively you need to be able to feel what is going on at the other end of the line.  How the bait is moving as it is trolled.  How the lure is moving as it's retrieved.  The structure of the bottom (mud, sand, rocks, coral, tree branches, seaweed).  Feeling the fish bite or shake its head.  Anything related to sensitivity.

There are good things about stretch as well.  It helps prevent yanking the hook out of a tender mouth.  It helps prevent snapping off the terminal tackle or lure on a bad cast.  It provides a shock absorber that may prevent a break-off or pulled hook when a fish thrashes around.  The selection of the rod is influenced by the type of line.  A rod will behave differently using mono versus Spectra because the rod also functions as a shock absorber.

Then there is diameter difference that will affect the selection of a reel.

Cor

#71
Spot on oc1!

I once saw a video of Japanese fishing from shore with some thin strong elastic section in the line that had the fish fighting the elastic which acted as a shock absorber.

For 40 years I fished with mono, all sorts some very hard and stiff and the last 20 years more modern thinner and stronger but also more supple line.   I now use a product from Suffix, XL strong  in 0.5 mm to 0.62mm  (Between 45 and 60 lb) its fairly thin for its strength, strong and casts well.

5 years back I switched to braid on 3 of my Tranx reels and have been very happy with the result despite my previous statements that braid does not work well on conventional reels.    The level winding reels, modified with a good static magnetic cast control make it quite doable.   Bear in mind that I spin fish, which usually has me standing casting at a rate of 100 casts per hour.

I think making a deliberate & careful cast with braid is not a big issue, but doing it continuously with all types of changes in water and wind conditions sometimes makes it difficult.

I liked the very strong and durable braid, no more breakages, but quite quickly started to realised that there was a downside to it as well, other than that its casting ability does not match up to mono.

The first thing I noticed was that I was losing more fish after hookup.   I now believe that to be correct.    The more direct head shake of the fish and also the lack of stretch enables the fish to get slack in the line at inopportune times and shake the hooks.
I also tag a lot of fish and to avoid unnecessary damage to the fish, I nearly always flatten the barbs on my hooks, making it easier for the fish to release itself.  

I never believed this to be true while fishing with mono?

Another observation is that guys that use spinning reels, do not seem to experience the same problem, or not to the same extent.   Why not?
My guess is that the spinning rods are generally softer in the tip, thereby compensating the lack of stretch of mono.   The "older guys" tend to use much stronger tackle and pull much harder on the fish and I still fish that way with braid.
I sometimes pull a fish on to the surface, which is not intended, but a consequence of a strong rod,  no stretch braid, tight drag and perhaps a smaller fish.

A rod with a softer tip has an effect on the movement or action of a lure in the water.   As the lure gets to the top of a wave it pulls harder before skipping off the wave and losing traction.   A softer rod reduces that skipping of the lure, (sometimes it's actually desirable) so I wonder if the same happens when you use the more elastic mono......perhaps.

It does feel very different using mono again. ???

Cornelis

the rockfish ninja

Quote from: Cor on November 14, 2020, 05:55:57 AM
  What type of reel are you using, casting weight, line diameter, and rod length and a personal question how far is your cast @ ave?

- Avet SXJ MC
- 3oz
- 40lb braid
- 10ft Daiwa Emcast rod (a somewhat stiff MH)
- These days about 50-60 yds, in my prime it was about 80yds, but I'm old now, bad discs.

*I never found a difference with old vs new braid though. Either way it's still harder than mono to cast.
Deadly Sebastes assassin.

Cor

Quote from: the rockfish ninja on November 15, 2020, 12:53:45 PM
Quote from: Cor on November 14, 2020, 05:55:57 AM
  What type of reel are you using, casting weight, line diameter, and rod length and a personal question how far is your cast @ ave?

- Avet SXJ MC
- 3oz
- 40lb braid
- 10ft Daiwa Emcast rod (a somewhat stiff MH)
- These days about 50-60 yds, in my prime it was about 80yds, but I'm old now, bad discs.

*I never found a difference with old vs new braid though. Either way it's still harder than mono to cast.

Not too different tackle or age ;D
I dunno?
Cornelis