SIC Guide Sets

Started by Midway Tommy, January 31, 2020, 04:06:05 AM

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The Fishing Hobby

I mostly use fiberglass because it is just better for the type of fishing I do. I do a lot of rebuilds of older rods because there are a lot of good quality older glass rods still out there for very little money at flea markets and thrift stores. Some of those older ultralight glass blanks are so nice!

Cor

I am also a Fuji alconite fan and consider weight very important.    In days gone bye i used  2 mm stainless steel wire guides that weighed a ton, but then also a Tadler 4 reel that weighed more then 2 lb.🙄
What i dislike is when guys ask me to replace a broken guide with an old one that is still functional.    It's too much work an cost to have to do it again 2 month later!
Cornelis

Jeri

Quote from: The Fishing Hobby on February 01, 2020, 04:02:15 PM
Big difference between a professional builder and someone who builds for personal use IMO. I can afford to experiment, a pro has a reputation to uphold.
I always try to make that distinction when I do my videos about rod building where I'm trying something out of the norm.
I personally like trying out new things and new ways of doing things. It is like mad scientist stuff  :D

It is not just about reputation, it is about passing on best quality to the customer, knowing that it perhaps cannot be improved. The biggest issue these days with lots of folks using braid, is that you want to respect their purchases of braid, as well as the rod. Fuji do an exceptional job with the quality of their ceramic inserts, and you can make 1000's of casts without the braid turning into 'fluffy string', because they pay the money to have their inserts finely polished, unlike a lot of much cheaper options that some companies use.

Being a professional builder does prevent you from experimenting with new schemes and ideas for better performing rods, probably 50% of my 'thinking time' is dedicated to understanding fully how lines and guides and blanks interact to get a fuller understanding of how to improve the overall performance of the rods on a given blank. One particular blank that we worked with and have sold very many as it has proved so successful, was first built with Fuji LV single leg spinning guides, we then found we could get better distance with Fuji KW and KL guides, further experiments found that a combination of Fuji LG and L guides further increased performance; ultimately through experimentation Fuji LC and very small KL guides are proving even better than all the earlier iterations - all on the same blank. Our clients accept that there are going to be improvements, because as professionals we have the choice to experiment and improve, while commercial builders or hobbyists haven't.

DougK

thanks - these cheap China sets remind me of the first Fuji guides, with shock rings, big and heavy..
the SIC guides are priced out of my range anymore..
I was eyeing a new glass build, planned to use a couple of the Fuji K-series double foot with Fazlite whatever that is, and the Fuji Concept aluminium oxide single-foots for the rest. That prices out to about $15 for a full Fuji set. I'm confident I cannot tell the difference between this and SIC in actual fishing..

oc1

#19
I used to be a Fuji fan.  The Fuji Kool-Aid goes down easily.  My favorites were the KWAG series.  Here is a size 10 KWAG:


The weight is in grams.

This is the size 10 Pac Bay I am using now.


As the ring size of the guide is increased, the weight increases exponentially.  This is a size 12 KWAG.


If you made two identical rods with the only difference being the type of guide, you would immediately feel the difference when you waggle the pole or swing it around like you are casting.

You can even predict the difference mathematically before you start.  On paper, get your guide placement and then weigh each guide.  Multiply the weight of each guide by the distance the guide is from the reel arbor or pivot point.  You can use feet and pounds (like on a torque wrench) or any units you like as long as it's consistent.  Now add together all the foot-pound numbers.  The larger the number, the more rotational force or torque the guides alone create.  The torque of the guides, plus torque of the blank itself, plus the thread/finish, minus the foot-pounds of torque from the handle and everything below the pivot point is basically the swing weight of the rod.

You'll be surprised by the difference.  It is not about brands, it is all about weight.  I think the guide manufacturers and sellers should give the guide weight for each size and style.

-steve

Midway Tommy

QuoteYou'll be surprised by the difference.  It is not about brands, it is all about weight.  I think the guide manufacturers and sellers should give the guide weight for each size and style.

I do too, Steve. Right after American Tackle came out with their single foot TI Series with Nanolite rings I thought I would try a set because they were advertised as the lightest guides available. I asked Mudhole how much a set of those weighed and how much a set Fuji SICs weighed. They wouldn't tell me, they said they didn't know. I went ahead and bought a set and they are nice guides but not quite as light as Fuji SICs. A couple of my early rod builds had Hardloy guides.  :(  I find it amazing how clumsy those rods feel compared to my SIC builds. I never tried Alconite because I could compare them with SICs on St. Croix factory rods. I could easily feel the difference. 
Love those open face spinning reels! (Especially ABU & ABU/Zebco Cardinals)

Tommy D (ORCA), NE



Favorite Activity? ............... In our boat fishing
RELAXING w/ MY BEST FRIEND (My wife Bonnie)

The Fishing Hobby

I thought the Alconite guides were supposed to be lighter than the SIC guides?!? Maybe that isn't true, but I'd read that in the past somewhere I thought. I use aluminum oxide Fuji guides a lot. They catch fish too ;D

Midway Tommy

#22
Quote from: The Fishing Hobby on February 04, 2020, 05:16:22 AM
I thought the Alconite guides were supposed to be lighter than the SIC guides?!? Maybe that isn't true, but I'd read that in the past somewhere I thought. I use aluminum oxide Fuji guides a lot. They catch fish too ;D

Yeah, they say Alconite is 7% lighter compared to the exact same SIC setup. I sure couldn't feel them as lighter in the rods I compared. My set of 6 Fuji SICs, 30, 20, 16, 12, 10 & 8, weigh 0.35 oz. While my touch & feel is pretty sensitive I'm not sure I can feel a 0.02 oz difference. Maybe the blanks were a little different weight, or different balance? IDK  ???
Love those open face spinning reels! (Especially ABU & ABU/Zebco Cardinals)

Tommy D (ORCA), NE



Favorite Activity? ............... In our boat fishing
RELAXING w/ MY BEST FRIEND (My wife Bonnie)

Rivverrat

#23
Quote from: The Fishing Hobby on February 01, 2020, 04:02:15 PM
Big difference between a professional builder and someone who builds for personal use IMO. I can afford to experiment, a pro has a reputation to uphold....


I guess I'm not understanding. I'm always experimenting. How can one ever expect to get better at a craft with out doing just that. I have in fact built rods for paying people that were up for trying something new. However I think to your point, I wouldn't build an extreme lite rod, for line class for some one with my having no clue how it might work out.

Personally I see no reason for SIC guides on an ultralight. To me SIC guide inserts are for hard running fish where there may be heat from line friction. None of my personal rods have SIC guides they are all Alconite.

SIC inserts are slicker & harder than zirconium. Zirconium is harder than Alconite a high grade aluminum oxide. Find Zirconium to be the best all around but Alconite is tuffer & more chip resistant. Fuji Alconite  are inexpensive, lighter & I see no noticeable improvement of performance for my fishing using the prior two.

 All of the materials used today for guide inserts are good. Ring size, guide spacing & weight of guides will have a far more profound effect on how well a rod fishes than anything to do with ring material. If I was building an 80 - 130 line class rod with a single roller tip every guide below the tip would have SIC inserts. This would be at a level where one could see some benefits using SIC guides.

Or if a fella may be after a lite line class record SIC guides would be a great choice here also


                                                                                       VICKER'S HARDNESS SCALE:

                                                                                        Stainless Steel (SS): 200
                                                                                        Chrome: 800-1000
                                                                                        Aluminum Oxide: 1200-1400
                                                                                        Alconite: 1700
                                                                                        Zirconia: 1400-1800
                                                                                        NANOLITE: 1800
                                                                                        SiC: 2200-2400

The Fishing Hobby

By experimenting I mean trying off brand (cheap) components. You can't do that for a customer because you have a reputation you have to protect. I can build a rod with cheap components, see if they are junk or not and not worry about it because I'm building rods for personal use. I had mentioned that I had found some cheap Chinese high frame guides that I have been using for a couple of years that are holding up well so far. The rings are still looking good and polished and the finish of the frames are still perfect. If I were building for someone else, I wouldn't have used them.

jurelometer

Quote from: oc1 on February 03, 2020, 06:41:04 PM
I used to be a Fuji fan.  The Fuji Kool-Aid goes down easily.  My favorites were the KWAG series.  Here is a size 10 KWAG:


The weight is in grams.

[...snip]

If you made two identical rods with the only difference being the type of guide, you would immediately feel the difference when you waggle the pole or swing it around like you are casting.

You can even predict the difference mathematically before you start.  On paper, get your guide placement and then weigh each guide.  Multiply the weight of each guide by the distance the guide is from the reel arbor or pivot point.  You can use feet and pounds (like on a torque wrench) or any units you like as long as it's consistent.  Now add together all the foot-pound numbers.  The larger the number, the more rotational force or torque the guides alone create.  The torque of the guides, plus torque of the blank itself, plus the thread/finish, minus the foot-pounds of torque from the handle and everything below the pivot point is basically the swing weight of the rod.

You'll be surprised by the difference.  It is not about brands, it is all about weight.  I think the guide manufacturers and sellers should give the guide weight for each size and style.

-steve


Interesting on the weight difference change by guide size.   I think that the lighter the rod, the more difference guide weight makes.  And the effect probably needs to be compared at each guide location (I think).
   
Applying my faulty memory on physics:  Torque is rotational force/distance, not  mass/distance.  Force on a moving object is caculated by multiplying mass by acceleration.  The guide is not affecting the blank unless it is moving.  So you have to know how quickly the guide is going from stop to full speed, and then back to stop during a cast.

The closer the  force from the accelerating guide is to the amount of force it takes to bend the blank at the guide location, the more effect the guide will have on casting performance.   The further the guide from the fulcrum, the faster it will be accelerating/deaccelerating during the cast.  If  we made a blank that did not bend, the effect of the weigh of various guides would be negligible.  A very bendy blank would have the opposite effect. 

While I am quibbling with the math,  I do agree on the basic point, but would also add  that how fast the portion of the blank is accelerating  will  have a multiplying effect on force from the weight of the guide.

In other words, a long/ light rod being cast with high acceleration  would be most affected by by guide weight, increasingly toward the tip of the rod. 

That is why fly rods use such tiny snake guides.  But the amount of force it takes to bend a bigger saltwater blank means that the guide weight is generally not going to generate enough force to make as dramatic a difference until the guides get really heavy.

----
From what I have read, generally the harder the ceramic insert, the smoother but also more brittle.  Ceramics are already so smooth relative to the line being cast, it is hard to see how insert performances changes casting performance much.    Guide weight, especially toward the tip of the rod is probably a much more critical factor.

-J

DougK

#26
Quote from: oc1 on February 03, 2020, 06:41:04 PM
If you made two identical rods with the only difference being the type of guide, you would immediately feel the difference when you waggle the pole or swing it around like you are casting.

so I actually did this experiment - on a 8'6" fly rod blank built up for ultralight spinning. Started with those old red/white ceramics which were very ugly, and I thought the weight was affecting the casting performance. Replaced those with light stainless wire guides and the difference was a lot less than I expected. The swing weight and flex was noticeable but casting performance was not much if any different.  When those wire guides were grooved after five years or so, replaced with the early Fuji singlefoots that have a shock insert. Here I didn't notice any difference.. Those Fujis have lasted thirty years so far, made me a convert.

We argue about guide weight for fly rods too.. at a discussion on stripersonline, one of the guys did go and weighed snake guides to compare with the light Fuji singlefoots:

QuoteJust weighed 5 running guides which would be the number installed on the tip section of a 4 pc rd.:
5 X SnakeBrand (chromed stainless) DF snake, #4 = 0.8 grams
5 X REC Recoil DF snake, #4 = 0.5 grams
5 X Fuji TLSG SF, #7 (equivalent in ring size to a #2 snake)= 0.8 grams
5 X Fuji TLSG SF, #8 (equivalent in ring size to a #3 snake)= 1.3 grams

Worst case difference is 0.8grams. I am certain I could not tell the difference of 0.8grams of guides on the end of a fly rod. Also, in this case there is the question of double or single wrappings. The extra thread and finish required for a double foot wrap on the wire snake guides, adds nearly as much weight as the difference between the guides alone.
From the cane rods forum:

QuoteI did a test last year by wrapping a Snakebrand #2 guide on a 3/8" dowel, Size A thread, 5 coats of varnish, enough to get the build-up.  The weight gain of wrapping and finishing one foot was 1.2 grains.  That means the total weight of the single foot ceramic is essentially the same as a double foot snake, finished.

So I use single foot ceramics on all my fly rods, except for the old splitcane rods. Those get the Snake Brand snake guides, and that's mostly a cosmetic consideration.
For heavy fly rods I'll tend to pony up for the SICs as the lower friction is a help when making long casts and/or using shooting heads. 

On spinning rods, use the Fujis. I think about sizing and spacing first, cost second, weight is last.. though I do default to single-foots for the most part based on weight. I don't care for the looks of a rod that uses singlefoot throughout though, so again cosmetically will often decide on using double-foot for the first/second guide. I guess I'm just fundamentally shallow ;-)


Midway Tommy

Wow!   :o  What I intended to be informational bulk & weight comparison between off brand Asian made SS SIC and Fuji SS SIC 6 single foot LV style guide sets turned into quite an informational discussion.  ;D   
Love those open face spinning reels! (Especially ABU & ABU/Zebco Cardinals)

Tommy D (ORCA), NE



Favorite Activity? ............... In our boat fishing
RELAXING w/ MY BEST FRIEND (My wife Bonnie)

The Fishing Hobby

Yes sir, good info here for people to think about.

Swami805

On my conventional rods I'd almost always used # 20 or # 25 for a stripper transition down to #8 for my salt water caster rods. The last year or so I've switch to a # 16 with a tall frame transitioning down to #6 single foot guides. Maybe it's mental but I'm getting more distance it seems like and the rod feels more responsive. I originally tried to reduce weight with the single foot guides on a few light rods and like the results so carried it over to the heavier 30-40 lb stuff. To me the decrease in weight was noticeable too on the balance of a 10' rod
The only downside so far is the single foot guides aren't nearly as durable but no big trick to putting on a new one
Do what you can with that you have where you are