alan tani @ alantani.com fishing reel repair rebuild tutorial 3D Printer Parts
Reel Repair by Alan Tani
February 17, 2020, 11:45:24 PM *
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Author Topic: 3D Printer Parts  (Read 436 times)
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jgp12000
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« on: February 13, 2020, 04:11:50 AM »

I was wondering if anyone has ever scanned and copied an obsolete reel part for personal use,I am sure it may be a patent violation if they were sold to the public?
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alantani
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« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2020, 08:07:20 AM »

i doubt that a company would go through the trouble of chasing after someone for something like this.  there is never going to be a very large market. 
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« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2020, 08:09:50 AM »

crosswind blocks are the first thing that comes to mind....I would agree with Alan, doubtful a company will chase someone down for a few polymer repros of a part disco'd 30 years or more ago....
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jgp12000
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« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2020, 08:28:25 AM »

We have one at work that I have seen some pretty stout items made with it I guess according to the media used.I am sure an AR dog maybe even a gear could be tougher than the new stuff engineered to fail.They make whatever they can out of plastic nowadays, unlike Mitchell 300s ....
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Ron Jones
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« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2020, 09:24:46 AM »

I will soon have access to CF reinforced printed parts. The speed isn't there for production but really cool one offs will be fun.
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Ronald Jones
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« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2020, 10:21:59 AM »

Most patents have been expired for many years if parts are obsolete. I doubt there would be many, if any, parts patent violation chasers out there.
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Love those open face spinning reels! (Especially ABU & ABU/Zebco Cardinals)

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Favorite Activity? ............... In our boat fishing
RELAXING w/ MY BEST FRIEND (My wife Bonnie)
jurelometer
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« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2020, 12:53:04 PM »

This is a topic that keeps coming up from time to time.  Patents are not the main issue.  As Tommy points out, patents on old reels have probably expired.  And individual replacement components may not be covered by a patent.  The bigger issue will be customers unhappy with the appearance, fit and durability of the parts.

I have made parts like handles and drag knobs, and a 720 crosswind block is a very good candidate (but somebody should try to talk Tom at Cortez into cranking out a batch of machined Delrin crosswind blocks). I have  designed and printed functional gear sets (not for reels), but the teeth on  reel size gears  are too small to print cleanly, and will be ridiculously weak if not kept in  alignment.    I have also made frame kit prototypes.  In my opinion, most  replacement parts from a  a hobby printer will be substandard at best and not usually a viable replacement for original parts.

 The printed part can be surprisingly strong for forces on an  XY plane (original printing orientation) , but the since the part is made in  layers by stacking  beads of melted plastic, inter-layer strength is not nearly as good and is  unpredictable.  The thicker the beads, the stronger the inter-layer adhesion,  but it makes for an uglier, less precise part.

The plastics that are suitable for this type of 3D printing are not the most suitable for production parts.   The stronger plastics like  nylon, ABS, and even polycarbonate can be printed, but  shrink quite a bit  when cooling causing many parts to  warp as the lower layers are cooling while the upper layers are printing (varies by part design).   Most hobbyists print with PLA plastic, which doesn't warp much while printing  and is very hard but not that strong, and the finished part will often warp when exposed to a hot sun.

Most plastics  require an additive to prevent rapid UV degradation,  BUT 3D filament manufacturers have not been able to come up with a viable UV inhibitor  for  hobby printer filament.   ASA filament is available, and this plastic is intrinsically UV resistant and has many of the properties of ABS, which makes it relatively strong, but somewhat elastic.  It also warps.

I have been playing with (carbon) fiber filled plastics for a bit now.  I like the stuff, but it is not magic.  Fiber does help resist shrinkage and warpage, and seems to help bond layers together better.   Mostly, the fiber makes the part stiffer, but stiffer means more brittle, and subject to stress introduced during printing and use.   No free lunch.   You need a special hardened steel nozzle (instead of brass) to deal with the abrasion from the fibers, and it is trickier to keep the nozzle temp consistent, so consistency  in layer adhesion can be a problem.

There are some interesting new printer systems with costs getting down toward  the USD $100K range that combine special filaments or resins and microwave enhanced sintering ovens.  The sintering fuses the layers together, and the filaments can be a carrier for metal powder, meaning it is possible to print parts out of various metals with densities in the high 90 percentage - approaching the strength of a cast part.  But the filament is expensive, so the parts won't be cheap.  Long term, scientists are trying to figure out how to cheaply get from raw titanium to fine powder, and then decrease the time and energy involved in fusing the powder into a part. Titanium is ubiquitous on our planet, so cheap one-off parts in the future might all be made out of titanium Smiley. For now, only very high value parts are made this way.

There are services out there that can make stronger  functional plastic or metal parts with industrial 3D printers, but the cost is usually too high to make it worthwhile.   I sent a few CAD files out for quotes, but never pulled the trigger because of cost.

And finally, the thing that most folks overlook is that in order to print a part,  somebody has to  has to draw up the 3D model in a CAD program.   It seems like only one out of every couple hundred (thousand?) people with a hobby 3D printer has reasonable competence with a mechanical CAD program.   The rest of them are scavenging the internet for 3D images of Star Wars action figures to download. 

I have been hankering to make a full on hobby  printer reel to see if I could catch a dorado or small tuna before the reel blew up,  but the design has to be very different than a typical reel to accommodate the issues around 3D printing.

I do   make lots of non reel parts, tools, fixtures, lure mold masters, and even lures with my 3D printer.  So I do find the gizmo useful.  The only way  to get some 3D printer parts is to print them Smiley

A person with some CAD skills and some experience with 3D printing  should be able  make something like a frame kit or sideplate that will work for awhile.  It won't last, or work as well as the original parts, but it could be fun. 

I would suggest doing a search on this site for 3D.  Lots of this stuff is covered, and more.

Ron:  If you get more serious about getting into some 3D printing and/or CAD and want to chat, feel free to PM me.  Making some parts for fun is the right approach in my opinion. I think this stuff is pretty fun.

-J
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happyhooker
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« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2020, 05:06:12 PM »

I know very little about 3D printing, so reading the posts here has been enlightening.

Frank
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jgp12000
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« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2020, 05:52:38 PM »

Well now I know more than I did about 3D printers,which was zippo .Thank you for the info very informative !
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jurelometer
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« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2020, 11:29:11 PM »

I was supposed to do the laundry.   Designed and printed up some Penn 720/722 crosswind blocks instead.   Not a very difficult decision Smiley

Seems to work pretty well.


-J


* crosswind block.jpg (26.89 KB, 987x758 - viewed 0 times.)

* DSC_0865-1920x1080.JPG (257.01 KB, 1920x1080 - viewed 4 times.)
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« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2020, 11:38:10 PM »

And finally, the thing that most folks overlook is that in order to print a part,  somebody has to  has to draw up the 3D model in a CAD program.   It seems like only one out of every couple hundred (thousand?) people with a hobby 3D printer has reasonable competence with a mechanical CAD program.   The rest of them are scavenging the internet for 3D images of Star Wars action figures to download.  
Beautiful work on the cross-wind block.  

I'm not sure it makes a lot of sense to 3D print a one-off part.  In the time required to set up the software, do a test run, tweek the program and then print the part, you could carve the part from stronger Delrin or PEEK stock or, perhaps, lay it up by hand..

There are some 3D printed reels on the internet.  But tuna?Huh?
-steve
« Last Edit: February 13, 2020, 11:42:52 PM by oc1 » Logged
jurelometer
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« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2020, 12:22:10 AM »

And finally, the thing that most folks overlook is that in order to print a part,  somebody has to  has to draw up the 3D model in a CAD program.   It seems like only one out of every couple hundred (thousand?) people with a hobby 3D printer has reasonable competence with a mechanical CAD program.   The rest of them are scavenging the internet for 3D images of Star Wars action figures to download.  
Beautiful work on the cross-wind block.  

I'm not sure it makes a lot of sense to 3D print a one-off part.  In the time required to set up the software, do a test run, tweek the program and then print the part, you could carve the part from stronger Delrin or PEEK stock or, perhaps, lay it up by hand..

There are some 3D printed reels on the internet.  But tuna?Huh?
-steve

Thanks!  You could do it faster by hand.  For me it would take awhile, and a bit of blood loss.  But you are right.  With some fixturing and a rotary tool (I like my Foredom- couldn't do anything right with a Dremel),  grinding a crosswind block out of Delrin is totally doable.   Delrin/acetal is easy to work with.    The nice thing about CAD and printing, is that you can tweak the design and print a new part without going back to square one.  And the second, third and fourth part just pop right out of the printer.


The 3D printed reels that I have seen are toys.  I think that I could make a reel with mostly printed plastic parts  (any shafts would have to be metal) that could catch a small tuna- like 10 lbs or under.  A dorado/mahi for sure.  the freespool is the tricky part- maybe go with a  knuckle buster design on the cast.  

------

Getting back to the original question:  I forgot to talk about scanning.   I have only done a little of this but scanning dimensional parts is an expensive proposition.  The software tries to build a mesh (a wireframe of triangles) based on a set of photos taken from different angles.  Getting a fully realized mesh that is dimensionally accurate requires a quality setup - you have to know exact camera locations relative to the part.    I think that this is usually sent out to a specialist shop, as opposed to something that someone would do on their own.     And once you have a mesh, it is not so useful for CAD, so the mesh might have to be converted into a parametric model that has actual dimensions that can be tweaked.    Better off buying several dozen backup  reels for parts and save some money.

The hobby scanning stuff will work for art type projects - sort-of. It is supposed to be getting better, but I haven't tried any of the newer stuff.

It is usually easier to do some measurements and a bit of trial and error for these kind of parts.

-J
« Last Edit: February 14, 2020, 01:09:51 AM by jurelometer » Logged
jgp12000
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« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2020, 04:07:38 AM »

I imagine like all technology in 10 years it will be simpler and cheaper,I remember reading Dick Tracy comic books in the 60s,he could talk & see people on his watch thinking it was unreal, now we have them...
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witty1
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« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2020, 10:41:16 AM »

You tried printing with Ultem? 9085 would be pretty durable, and it doesn't shrink so much.

What would be really fun would be to get a HandySCAN and reverse engineer the parts really quick going that route.
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jurelometer
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« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2020, 03:22:54 PM »

You tried printing with Ultem? 9085 would be pretty durable, and it doesn't shrink so much.

What would be really fun would be to get a HandySCAN and reverse engineer the parts really quick going that route.

Right now, I only work with hobby gear  Sad
   
Ultem?  Requires a printer capable of 400c extrusion temps, and bed temps of 150c. and a very hot chamber.  Beyond the capabilities of hobby printers.   And the filament retails about USD $250 a kilo.

I don't know what the original crosswind block is made from, but it looks suspiciously like ABS.   I don't want to waste a functional part on the melt and smell test to find out for sure.   The ideal replacement material should be relatively hard (but not abrasive), creep resistant, and a good sliding coefficient of friction against brass (or bronze- hard to tell).  My vote: Delrin/acetal. Doesn't 3D print well on hobby printers, but easy enough to machine from stock, even with a CNC router.  Ultem would be overkill from a strength perspective, and I don't know if it makes a decent bearing surface.

I just looked up HandyScan.  Wow. Pretty  fancy!  Seems quite capable, but hand-held  scanners are usually optimized for scanning larger parts.  MSRP ~USD $50,000.   For that kind of coin, I could buy a nice Haas Mini CNC mill, tooling, a digital probe setup, a couple dozen Penn 720s, and still have enough cash left over to send a bunch of parts out for scanning.  Plus beer Smiley.  Or maybe buy  a nice boat instead. Or a very long trip to Baja...

But seriously,  if you have access to a professional printer capable of making functional mechanical parts out of Ultem, PM me if you are interested in some projects.     There are better fishing reel projects for Ultem than a 720 crosswind block.

-J
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