Grouper Junior — WIP

Decker · March 24, 2020, 03:29:45 PM

I've always admired the ingenuity of guys on this site, and have imagined many franken-reels from what I have learned here. The Grouper Special has been an inspiration, and I've often thought of building one. Lately I can't find the links, but the I believe the original reel was made by a guy named George, in Alaska for halibut I think, using the Penn 3/0, Newell Yellowtail Special base and bars, and a Long Beach 66 spool. This is the first thread to coin the name:https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=5320.0 I recall "Rowdy" Rudy commenting on the gearing and drag, and Sal "Alto Mare" came up with a unique gear combination that improved the retrieve to 2.6:1. There were other members involved but those are the ones I remember.

Later I had another thought. Gearing similar to the Grouper Special is found in the Senator 2/0 111. It has the 66 bridge, but a smaller, narrower spool as is used in the Long Beach 60. It occurred to be that I could build a 2/0 beast with modifications similar to the Grouper Special. It would hold less line, but still plenty of braid for East Coast wreck fishing, and be narrower. With this inspiration, and using knowledge learned from the masters on this site, I decided to build what I would like to call the "Grouper Junior."

Here are the upgrade ingredients that I have to work with:

Aluminum 85 spool to replace the chrome one
Tiburon T-bar power handle
Stainless steel gear sleeve
5-149 main gear and 13-113H pinion: Sal's contribution

Crow · March 24, 2020, 03:57:34 PM

Sounds like a good project !!

xjchad · March 24, 2020, 04:11:54 PM

Very cool idea Joe!

Looking forward to seeing it come together!

One of Ted's aluminum stands would be a great upgrade too!

Decker · March 24, 2020, 04:27:15 PM

Quote from: xjchad on March 24, 2020, 04:11:54 PM
Very cool idea Joe!

Looking forward to seeing it come together!

One of Ted's aluminum stands would be a great upgrade too!

Thanks, Chad. Ted's stands wont fit this. The 2/0 stand has three holes per side and is the same width as the Long Beach 60, which has two holes per side. I would love to see someone make a base or frame for that width.

mo65 · March 24, 2020, 04:53:10 PM

Great idea for a build Joe! That 2/0 stock stand is pretty stout, and add the 6 posts, it should be plenty strong.

Decker · March 24, 2020, 05:41:18 PM

I took everything apart, and put the stainless sleeve on. I believe some guys put a delrin washer under the sleeve, but it doesn't seem possible for this build.

I had another 66 bridge and main gear that I scavenged parts from. This one had a black delrin (I think) washer under the main, which I reused. The main gear had a 5-stack of carbontex, definitely reusable.

Now the dilemma... if I use the 5-149 main gear, it will only hold a 3-stack using the washer I have. I have a stainless 5-66 gear from the salvaged bridge with a 5-stack. Do I use the 66 or the 149 gear? If the 149, I'll want to get one of Bryan's 5-stack kits for it, if this reel is going to be the brute I intend. Plus, if this is really going to be a franken-reel, then it should have the 149.

The other thing that is missing is a stainless dog. Ideally I'd like to double-dog, but will probably put that off. Part # for the dog is 15-99. I wonder if Lee has those.

xjchad · March 24, 2020, 06:21:38 PM

Joe,
I don't think a delrin washer under the sleeve would work, the clearance is very small.
I've been putting a very thin (.010"-.012") stainless shim under the sleeve of the Mag 10's with good results.
It has really taken the play out of the handle and (so far) has solved the issues Randy (JRD) was having with the sleeve grinding on the bridge.

What is the diameter of the base of the bridge post? If it's the same, I'll send you some shims to try.

mo65 · March 24, 2020, 09:06:50 PM

Hey Joe,
You didn't mention this, maybe you already know it, that 149 gear is a bit larger diameter than the 66 gear. It usually requires a bit of dremel work. Not a big deal considering the increased speed the 149 main/113H pinion provides. If I remember right, Sal said that Bryans' 5-stack kit works fine in the 149 gear. I cobbled together a home brewed 5-stack on my reel...I was out of cash...Ha!

Decker · March 24, 2020, 11:26:38 PM

Mo, I remembered about grinding out the plate from Sal's tutorial; "not much," he said. I tried the gear for size in the side plate and it fit, so well I was tempted to assemble without the dremel work. I need to keep the power down on mine so I don't ruin the side plate.

Tell me how you cobbled your 5 stack. I really don't have the cash either. I'm looking for your post. I forgot about that 99-width Grouper variant of yours. Sweet, but I'm going smaller.

Found it: this is a long thread with a lot of innovation: https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=9979.msg346704#msg346704

mo65 · March 25, 2020, 02:42:45 AM

Quote from: Decker on March 24, 2020, 11:26:38 PM
Mo, I remembered about grinding out the plate from Sal's tutorial; "not much," he said. I tried the gear for size in the side plate and it fit, so well I was tempted to assemble without the dremel work.

If I remember correctly, the gear fit into my side plate also, but when put onto the bridge it scrapes at the top.

Quote from: Decker on March 24, 2020, 11:26:38 PM
Tell me how you cobbled your 5 stack.

I used two of Bryan's thin washers(one carbon fiber and one metal) left over from a previous project, then the Mitchell 302 washers and two more thin CFs, then stock #6-60 washers. The top eared metal was so close to the edge I bent the ears down to keep them in the gear's slot.

Decker · March 25, 2020, 02:56:10 AM

I decided to put the gears, jack, bridge etc. in before grinding the plate, as a dry run. I'm going to reveal my lack of experience and say that it took several tries to figure out that the pinion has to go on the bearing before the jack screws, yoke and jack are put in. Got lots of practice with the yoke/jack orientation. Left the dog out of the dry run. Put the spacer sleeve, star and a handle on.

When it was together, it looked good. I could operate the eccentric okay, but even tightening the drag down, I could not crank it. It had seemed before assembly like the 149 main gear should be able to move inside the plate, but no. I should mention that on top of the last drag washer, I added a hard fiber washer and four belville washers. It seemed like those would work well for taking up the space left by the shorter main gear (compared to the 5-66).

Next step is grinding out the plate. I recall there are three concentric gradations to the opening. Am wondering if I only need to grind the largest part of the gear opening, or more? How will I know if I've taken away enough material short of doing another dry run?

This is more challenging than I anticipated, but I've been too much an armchair reel mechanic and am happy to be getting into it.

mhc · March 25, 2020, 03:23:58 AM

Which bridge are you using Joe? I think Sal's 5-149 and 13-113H gear set works on a 3-113 bridge not the 3-66 bridge.

Quote from the 2/0 Bait Special thread;

"I have decided to try a 4/0 3-113 bridge with Sal's grouper special gear combination of a 5-149 main and 13-113H pinion, to increase the gear ratio from 2.3:1 to 2.6:1.
A bit of background to the choice; The stock 112 3/0 & 111 2/0 Senators both use the 3-66 bridge with a 5-66 main gear (32 teeth) and 13-49 pinion (14 teeth) which gives a gear ratio of around 2.3:1.
The 113 4/0 uses a 3-113 bridge and a 5-66 main with a 13-113 pinion with a gear ratio of around 2:1. A few members here were making narrow 113 4/0 'grouper specials' and putting the 3-66 bridge and gears in the 4/0 to increase the speed a bit. The 3-66 bridge was not a perfect fit but close enough to work - then Sal came up with the 5-149 and 13-113H gear set on the 3-113 bridge to make his 2.6:1 grouper special.
If the 3-66 fit in 113, the 3-113 bridge with Sal's gear combination should fit in the 112 if I enlarge the gear space for the slightly larger 5-149 gear."

I stopped grinding the plate gear cavity when I saw daylight.

Mike

Ron Jones · March 25, 2020, 04:41:16 AM

A 2.6:1 3/0 sized reel would be great. I've never wreck fished, but as I understand it you need a ton of grunt to turn big fish before they get tied up. If that is what you are looking for, Bryan has a 7+1 drag stack for that 66 gear that would stop a freight train.

Just pointing out options. If the 2/0 frames eren't hen's teeth, I'd say make 2.

The Man

Decker · March 25, 2020, 04:45:03 AM

Mike,

Glad you chimed in. Your Bait Special was one of my inspirations -- all that metal-work - wow. Appreciate the advice.

I'm using a 66 bridge. If I were to try a 113 bridge, are there other parts that would need to be changed too? I don't have one, but if that's the right way to do it, I'm in.

Cheers,
/Joe

Decker · March 25, 2020, 04:49:52 AM

Quote from: Ron Jones on March 25, 2020, 04:41:16 AM
A 2.6:1 3/0 sized reel would be great. I've never wreck fished, but as I understand it you need a ton of grunt to turn big fish before they get tied up. If that is what you are looking for, Bryan has a 7+1 drag stack for that 66 gear that would stop a freight train.

Just pointing out options. If the 2/0 frames eren't hen's teeth, I'd say make 2.

The Man

Ron, thanks. Yes, that's what I'm after. I fish New jersey, so our wreck fish aren't quite as strong as the southern ones. I'm using the 149 main, but can see that the 66 main has more room for drag.