A good fly reel? / Topic veer - hammers

[Rancanfish]

I have a fly rod that a friends dad made for me when we were maybe 23 years old.  And I have a fly reel. A simple little machine.

But, I see fly reels for $300 + and think 'Why'?  There doesn't seem to be much to them.

EDIT:  changed title to match content.   

[foakes]

One thing that I have observed over the years, Randy --

Having been involved in 50 years of retail during my working career --

And this is counter-intuitive to most of us on this site --

If a good quality product is not selling well -- nine times out of ten, just raise the price to a level you think is ridiculous -- then it will get more attention, activity, and a more well healed buyer who thinks that because something costs more -- it must be better.  And you will make more money and not have to work so hard to sell as many items.

Plus, the buyer will be able to brag to all of his buddies how much his reel cost.

Fly reels should be of a good, solid quality, function well, etc. -- but at the end of the day, it is really the rod, the skill of the angler, and the presentation of the proper fly or streamer -- the reel is merely a simple line retrieval mechanism.

This is only my opinion -- based on personal experience.

Others may/will have different thoughts.

Best, Fred

[Tiddlerbasher]

I have used many fly rods and reels, I still have nearly all of them.
Fly fishing, usually freshwater, has become my prime hoby. Older heavier rods required a heavier reel to get that feel/balance that I like.
Modern ultra light rods require a much lighter reel to achieve a similar balance. With time I have moved from buget price equipment to the best I can afford.
I currently use Orvis Helios 3 rods with Mirage LT reels. The outfits balance perfectly and even though I have bad arthritis in my hands and wrists I can cast all day without suffering too badly.
The Mirage reels are lovely pieces of engineering that will cope with anything in freshwater and anything on the flats like bonefish. The largest fish todate, which was a complete surprise, a 12.5 lb mirror carp! I was casting to a rising bow at the time The very smooth drag of the reel was ideal for this scenario and the rod at full flex was a joy
I don't try to justify the cost of my fishing tackle. It is more about that's what I want and that's what it costs.
You can always find something cheaper that will do a job. But if you want craftmanship and quality engineering there will inevitably be a price to pay - it's a personal choice and we are all different.

[jurelometer]

There is a couple things that drive the cost.

First of all there is a lack of volume.  There are not nearly as many fly fisherman as conventional and spinning.  But ironically,  there are tons of fly reel manufacturers,  including lots of botique manufacturers.  The pie is split into so many small pieces that nobody gets much economy of scale.  


I read somewhere that Abel. (probably the biggest name in premium saltwater fly reels) sales volume is only in the low tens of thousands of units.  

The fact that fly reels are so simple makes the cost of market entry too low.   When I started to teach myself CNC machining, I thought that a fly reel would be a good rookie project.   That is how easy it is. It seems like every guy that runs a machine shop that like to fly fish has a branded premium reel. And nearly every fly rod maker has  one or more lines of reels.

Next there is actually a market demand for higher priced reels driven by higher priced rods.  From the days of split cane to modern carbon fiber, there is a  range of rod prices that gets into the extreme.    Once you buy that $900 USD rod,  you NEED a $500 reel.   No way that you are going to hang a $20 reel on there.

--------
Starting with freshwater trout through saltwater bonefish,  any reel that does not blow up on you that has an exposed rim for palming is all that you need.  Palming for drag is actually preferred by a lot of anglers.

The way most light reels blow up are one-way bearings failing, ball bearings rusting out, and  the quick release spool mechanism accidentally releasing on a fast run.

Once you get into larger fish, a solid drag becomes important.  Since folks like their reels to be light,  in addition to the above issues, add in frames flexing and spools collapsing from too-thin walls and over-porting. Many saltwater reels get rid of the quick release spool or use a beefed up mechanism.

If your target species takes a lot of line,  spool arbor size and width comes into play. With no gears, it takes a lot of winding, so a larger arbor can help.

Balancing the weight of the reel with the rod sometimes matters.  A very light reel with a modern light rod makes casting lighter rods up to about 6-7 weights a much more pleasant experience as Tiddlebasher pointed out.  On single handed rods, it is less important as the rod weights go up, with some folks still insisting on balance and others not caring that much.

I am not a two handed rod guy other than overhead casting, but the spey rod  guys seem to care a lot about balance, but that often means looking for a heavier reel.

And the last thing to think about is sand/silt ingress.  Since the reel is at the very bottom of the rod, if the base of the rod touches ground/bottom, dirt is probably going to get in.  So if you are wading or beach fishing, you need to pick a reel that is easy to de-sand in the field (my preference)  or protected by seals.

There are good reels to be had out there, but lots of junk. Low price point junk, high price point junk.  A lot of the popular high dollar reels are junk IMHO.  A lot of what makes these reels junk is trading off reliability and strength for bling.

For trout fishing, I would look for a reasonably light reel without any ball bearings or one way bearings, a palming rim, and the ability to get all the sand out and keep fishing with a quick rinse and no disassembly. I like the older Ross reels. The anti-reverse mechanism is not very heavy duty, but it doesn't matter.  Don't know what they go for nowadays.  

My $0.02,

-J

[Tiddlerbasher]

If a fly reel has a sealed drag I want it watertight - not that easy. Rather a click and pawl if not totally watertight. Trying to clean out a 'semi-whatever-maybe-on a good day-it might keep something out' type of reel no longer appeals to me. Been there and done that. I've played with many - I don't want a failure on that 'ONE' special fish.
When I had access to a small workshop the first reel I tried to fabricate was a centre pin or mooching reel. It was 'ok', it worked. Then I tried to add a drag system - a simple click anti over run worked fine. Next a disk drag system - that part never really got completed. I never did complete a fly reel project. I couldn't balance weight/performance.
When I pay heavy duty £s for tackle it has to be good. E.g. When I pay £300 for a reel it has to be better than just a 'trout' reel - I want it to do double/treble duty as a pike/saltwater reel as well.
I agree with Dave on almost everything he stated. BUT I would put a 20$ reel on a $900 rod if it worked. I've tried it, really, the balance/size/arbour wasn't right for me. This always can get very subjective.
If I were using a 3wt rod I would use a click and pawl reel, probably a Battenkill (I know and luv 'em even if they are made in PRC now). For a 7/8wt, for me, it must be a watertight disc drag with a sealed ar bearing - Because I want it to do a lot more than winch in a 8oz trout! 

[Gfish]

For me Randy, a pretty good middle-of-the-road freshwater reel was the old Hardy Marquis series 6. Made in England by Scientific Anglers(I think), good for Trout, etc.,  on 4 - 7 wt. rods. The new ones of this model look to be way too expensive. My oldie had good tolerances, materials, relatively lightweight and the drag adjustibility you'ed need for that type of fishing. Saw one on Da Bay for ~ $40.

[pjstevko]

Check out the fly reels from....

https://www.piscifun.com/

I love my Sword II for trout

[wfjord]

For me Randy, a pretty good middle-of-the-road freshwater reel was the old Hardy Marquis series 6. Made in England by Scientific Anglers(I think), good for Trout, etc.,  on 4 - 7 wt. rods. The new ones of this model look to be way too expensive. My oldie had good tolerances, materials, relatively lightweight and the drag adjustibility you'ed need for that type of fishing. Saw one on Da Bay for ~ $40.

The Scientific Anglers System #4 thru #11 reels were made by Hardy; Hardy quit making them for SA and started marketing the exact same reel as the "Hardy Marquis."

I have some Hardy Marquis and also several Hardy-made SA System reels.  I've used a Marquis #6 extensively for many years as my primary trout reel for 5wt DT lines -- and last year acquired a mint vintage SA System 5 for a WF-5-F line.  They do have excellent tolerances, and the used ones aren't getting any cheaper.  The new generation of machined Marquis are out of my price range.

Also have a vintage Hardy-made Orvis CFO III and Hardy-made Orvis Battenkill Mark IV, both click-pawl reels, that I use with 4-weight lines.

[Jim Fujitani]

I did not know that Hardy made reels for SA. 

I made the jump from Pflueger Medalists for Trout and Steelhead to Hardy Perfect for King Salmon back in the late 70's.  The main reason was the capabilities of the Medalist were limited by the size and strength of the quarry.  I had experienced the spool side plate deformation on the Medalist after a prolonged fight with a King Salmon, so a step up was required.

[Balvar24]

A quote from another thread that here I now think of everytime I see an expensive fly reel.


"Man, this is going to be difficult.  Discussing the finer points of a fly reel will be like discussing the finer points of a hammer.  Hopefully, I'm missing something.
-steve"

[foakes]

A quote from another thread that here I now think of everytime I see an expensive fly reel.


"Man, this is going to be difficult.  Discussing the finer points of a fly reel will be like discussing the finer points of a hammer.  Hopefully, I'm missing something.
-steve"

That is all true -- depending on one's knowledge, experience, and passion.

You don't need to understand all of the Principles of Electrical Engineering to flip a light switch...

I guess I could write a 20 page explanation of each type of hammer I own and use -- design, usage, benefits, shortcomings, head, facing details, handle design, handle materials, shock impact values, weights, etc, etc..

But most times -- I just need to pound a nail or form some metal.

Over the years I have noticed something that many folks miss -- just because they have never been exposed to true craftsmanship honed over a lifetime -- the top 5% of any profession or endeavor, is comprised of professionals and experts.  And...the top 1% of this group is constantly re-evaluating what they know.

The expert's expert -- will continue to sharpen their knowledge and skills -- forever.

They know that there is always something more to learn today -- even about a hammer, a peanut, or a rock.

IMO.

Best,

Fred

[Donnyboat]

Very true Fred, I am in my mid 70`s when I wake up every morning I say, gee I hope, I can learn something new today. cheers Don.

[jurelometer]

A quote from another thread that here I now think of everytime I see an expensive fly reel.


"Man, this is going to be difficult.  Discussing the finer points of a fly reel will be like discussing the finer points of a hammer.  Hopefully, I'm missing something.
-steve"

Well, to be fair,  it is all relative.

The fanciest two speed conventional reel is less complicated than a 1960's Plymouth Valiant one barrel carburetor:



The thing that makes reels interesting to me is that they are simple enough that any mechanically inclined person can design one, and complicated enough that there can be lots of variations in the design.   Plus there are a ton of different designs out there, many of which you can get your hands on for just a few bucks.  It is a game that any interested person can join.

Analyzing reel design has taught me about the multitude of ways different people can approach the same simple mechanical design problem, how much misguided market demand can screw up the function of a product, how marketing further messes with our perceptions to keep us replacing product, and so on.

A simpler product lays all this bare.

To add to Fred's points, there is a certain discipline and skill in making something better by making it simpler.   As somebody who designs stuff for work and for fun,  I think that most folk do not appreciate the combination of science, experience, analytical skill and creativity it takes to come up with a good design. 

If you took 100 random people off the street, erased any memory that they had of what a hammer looked like and asked them to design a hammer for construction work, at least 99 of the designs would probably suck.  The chance of somebody coming up with a nice balanced claw hammer is virtually zero. 

And BTW, when doctors learned more recently about repetitive motion injury, even the venerable claw hammer design evolved to be gentler on human joints.

If you look at the majority of modern fly reel designs (and there are way too many) it is fascinating to see so many functional flaws.  It makes one sad to ponder how much this must also creep into more complicated mechanical designs from blenders to nuclear power plants...

Just my opinion,

-J

[Midway Tommy]

Since the subject now makes comparisons to claw hammers I'll ad my thoughts. Many have tried but none have ever been able to improve on the original wood handled Plumb. It was, until the company was sold, the best balanced claw hammer ever made, especially the 13, 16 & 20 oz round claw models. Some thought the wood handle was a negative but it wasn't for those who knew how to use it correctly. It had the best designed head with it's slightly convex face and rounded edge. The original wood handle design was a perfect fit to most carpenters' hands which made for near perfect balance. Craftsman & Stanley tried to copy it but never really came close in balance. Estwing comes close in its steel handled models but they're still not as well balanced as the original wood handle Plumbs. It just goes to show that sometimes it's hard to improve on simple perfection.

BTW, coming from someone who hand nailed subfloors, wall and roof sheathings for years before nail guns were the rage, IMNSHO, most of the framing type hammers on the market today are nothing more than prehistoric clubs. Using a hammer for driving nails all boils down to strong wrist action, eyesight and a well executed, and placed, rhythm.     

[Midway Tommy]

I think it depends on the size and type of fish one is going after. A brookie doesn't require near the quality of equipment that coho or steelhead do. Here's a highly regarded and proven sealed drag design that Craig Harris came up with. People still pay decent bucks ($300+-) for an original MI made example. BTW, they were also sold as Gapen Wild River reels.